15 days of hell: Teddy bear teacher heads for notorious Sudan jail

[Herman Munster]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=497490&in_page_id=1766&ito=1490

The British teacher who let her pupils call a teddy bear Mohammed escaped a flogging yesterday - but must now endure 15 days in a notorious Sudan jail.

Gillian Gibbons will be incarcerated at the squalid Omdurman women's prison in Khartoum, which is massively overcrowded and infested with mosquitoes.
The 54-year-old from Liverpool was said to be "stunned" by the sentence imposed for insulting Islam - after which she will be deported from Sudan.

Last night, her conviction and punishment were furiously condemned and the Foreign Office was criticised for not fighting her case more forcefully.

"The sentence is a mockery of justice and we consider Gillian to be a prisoner of conscience," said Mike Blakemore, of Amnesty International.

[supernova]

1. I feel bad for that lady

:scared:

[GreenPartyVoter]

3. I do too. Mostly I feel badly that she was not well-versed in the culture that she had entered. With

a little more information she might have avoided this situation. :cry: What an awful awful thing for her to be going through, and only because she was doing a good thing for her students.

[supernova]

9. Exactly, I wonder what

organization she went with.

Did they not give her any training at all?

:shrug:

[DangerDave921]

71. What?

So you blame the organization??? How about blaming a culture and/or government that thinks it's OK to put you in jail because they don't like the name you (or your class) picked for your teddy bear. That's what shocks me about this.

[supernova]

89. Don't get me wrong

I think the whole situation sucks.

I can't imagine a worse hellhole than Sudan right now. But I'm sure someone else will name some other place equally as bad or worse.

And I repeat, I feel sorry for this woman. I do hope it gets resolved peacefully and she gets out alive. She probably went there thinking she would "do the right thing," and have the time of her life at the same time.

You know what the road to Hell is paved with...

Something else stinks about this story. I think the teddy bear is a cover up for some other problem that isn't being talked about. It's too simplistic. Especially if it's true she was teaching at a school for wealthy Sudanese and foreigners. Was she teaching girls? Is that the real offense? I don't know.

[DangerDave921]

72. What?

So you blame the organization??? How about blaming a culture and/or government that thinks it's OK to put you in jail because they don't like the name you (or your class) picked for your teddy bear. That's what shocks me about this.

[LisaL]

11. Well, if you know this culture, maybe you can explain.

Why is it acceptable to name a person Mohammad, but not a Teddy Bear?

[GreenPartyVoter]

12. My understanding is that it is not acceptable to name an animal that, and a teddy bear

apparently is close enough? (That's what I had read in an article the other day, anyway.)

[muriel_volestrangler]

13. It seems it's a thing special to Sudan

Dilwar Hussain, of the Islamic Foundation, has no problem with a teddy bear called Muhammad. For some years, the Islamic Society sold a soft toy made for British Muslim children named Adam the Prayer Bear. "Adam is also the name of a Prophet."
...
But Adel Darwish, the political editor of The Middle East magazine, says that Muslim children - "like children everywhere" - give their pets the names of characters they liked, be it a religious figure, sports hero or pop singer.

"Millions of Muslim children in Muslim nations give their dolls, pets and teddies Muslim names of the Prophet and his mother, daughters and wives."

Gill Lusk, the associate editor of Africa Confidential and a specialist on Sudan, says the incident will have offended many in the country. As Sudan is a place where religion is never mocked or satirised, it's "unthinkable" that a toy or pet could be given a religious name.

"You're not supposed to give a religious name to any objects - it could be seen as idolatry."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7115821.stm

Perhaps the teacher thought that if it was 'unthinkable', then the children would already have been told that by their parents, or other Muslims. It does seem strange that a part of their cultural education that the locals consider vital was left up to a foreigner and non-Muslim. You think if they care that much, they'd have drilled it into their children already.

[GreenPartyVoter]

14. Wow, Sudan is super strict then, eh?

[cgrindley]

17. If your culture sends someone to jail over a teddy bear's name

your culture is retarded and is not worthy of respect.

[supernova]

19. Except that she is a guest in their country

no matter how fucked up you or I think it is.

First rule of international travel is you do not under any circumstances, insult your hosts. It does not matter what you personally think of the country, it is all about appearing to do the right thing in those instances.

By your logic, if you were to visit Sudan, you'd wind up in the male cell block opposite hers.

[blondeatlast]

21. Exactly; it's not just a matter of protocol and manners, it can damn well save your sorry ass.

My husband travels overseas on business a lot. He reads State Department advisories and his employer verses him on proper conduct and he always has an etiquette guide handy.

He doesn't even travel to countries that are dangerous but knows full well he could be diverted to one sometime.

[cgrindley]

24. NO. Human rights are universal. Period.

There is no onus on anyone to "respect" clear affronts to the dignity of human beings. A civilized person is under no obligation to pay even half hearted lip service to such bullshit, and it is indeed one such instance where the threat of force should be on the table.

[blondeatlast]

27. Okey-dokey. So I guess you are a world traveler, eh?

Good luck with that.

[cgrindley]

38. Sure am

of course, I'd never travel to a backwards and ignorant nation such as Sudan.

[blondeatlast]

41. Can you let me know where you are planning to travel next year?

I want to avoid it like the plague. Your attitude could get MY family imprisoned or worse.

[supernova]

44. *G*

:D

[cgrindley]

46. So if you would have visited South Africa back in the 1980s?

and you would have "respected" their culture? Come on, that's ridiculous. People are just afraid to be critical because it's "Islam" and no one on the left has the courage to say anything that would stick up for basic human rights.

[blondeatlast]

53. Are you at all familiar with UN/State Department advisories?

No, I wouldn't have.

[cgrindley]

55. I wouldn't go to the Sudan if it were the last place on earth

and yes, I am familiar with the advisories.

[HooptieWagon]

131. I ignored the State Dept advisories

and went to Colombia about 10 years ago... had a great time. The group of us were given a list of stuff not to do in order to remain "safe" - of course this became a contest as to who could do the most things on the list - getting in cars with locals, going to the "bad" areas of the city, walking down the street looking lost, etc... the Colombians were wonderful, they were quite pleased we didn't take the US gov't seriously and deliberately avoided the tourist spots. I even stayed at a local family's apt rather than the tourist hotel.

[ohio2007]

151. the "NO GO" zones are growing and spreading.

Only because the world hates us for being .........

[supernova]

56. Nope, I would have joined the boycott

to avoid travel to SA then, if I had had the funds for travel then.

You really have a lot to learn about the world. I hope you do, for your sake.

[cgrindley]

67. Stop being condescending

I know enough about the world. I've lived and visited many parts of it in my life, and I have zero respect for countries that put asinine and stupid religious beliefs before human rights... it doesn't matter to me whether those religious beliefs interfere with a sound education (as they do in parts of this country) or are used to oppress people (as in say Saudi Arabia or Sudan) are used to remove a woman's choice (as happens in South America--I am no fan of abortion, I think it's a disgusting and horrible act of justifiable murder, but I'm totally in favor of it remaining legal).

And I don't think that we should hold our tongues about these grotesque violations of the human spirit.

Sudan is fucked up and I don't think its culture is even remotely worth a horse fart. And I don't think that anyone should respect it.

[supernova]

73. Stop being ignorant

Rant and rave all you want about Sudan.... you're in the West. You can do that. Or at least some place with unfettered access to a political chatboard like DU.

For the what 5th 6th time now, you don't insult a country WHILE YOU ARE THERE, especially if they like to point guns at civilians for no earthly reason except that you breath and exist.

Seriously, don't ever think about diplomacy because you'd start a war sooner than * can snort a line.

edit: I'm done with you. Welcome to my ignore list.

[muriel_volestrangler]

123. But no travel advisory says

"the children may suggest you name a toy 'Mohammed', because one of them is called that; do not allow them to, because they will be allowed to get away with it, while your arse will be thrown in jail".

If calling a toy 'Mohammed' is so bad in their culture, how come the children didn't know that already? Why had their parents and other teachers unaccountably failed to drum into them what was unpardonable blasphemy? Why didn't they find out until a foreigner agreed with the children it was a good idea?

The point is, she didn't "insult the country". She thought the children were behaving normally, and didn't stop them.

[Quantess]

154. That's what I'm wondering.

Why would she have reason to think she was doing something wrong, if none of the kids were horrified?
It may be a cultural norm of which someone would only be aware after years of sophistication.

I'm trying to think of an equivalent in Western societies, but for the life of me I can't think of any that could result in imprisonment, 40 lashes, or beheading. Safe to say there is no equivalent in Western cultures.

[BadgerLaw2010]

106. You want to go put your ass on the line to make a point about human rights, go do it.

Certain countries do not share Western values or Western legal concepts, or have extreme punishments for what we consider minor offenses or non-criminal activity.

If you think anything is going to save you, you're kidding yourself.

[supernova]

111. Thank you BadgerLaw2010

:applause:

[treestar]

145. OK, but you'll end up paying the price if you don't respect it while there

Though I feel bad for this lady; it probably came out of nowhere for her that this was even viewed as wrong.

[Beerboy]

52. They have a super-fab arms bazaar!

Lighten up, Hitler!:beer:

[BadgerLaw2010]

105. Lot of good that does you in a country that feels otherwise.

[supernova]

100. Safe travels to your hubby blondeatlast

Sounds like he takes international relations seriously.

[cgrindley]

22. That's asinine logic

so if you're visiting Nazi Germany?????

[supernova]

23. You know, you're sounding a lot like the invaders of Iraq

Go to their country and really teach 'em somethin!

That'll learn 'em!

[cgrindley]

25. Nonsense. For one, I'm staunchly against the Iraq War and for two,

apologist.

[supernova]

26. Your principle is the same, though

Going to someone else's country and lecturing them about the evils of their culture isn't the way to spread the word about freedom and acceptance.

Do us all a favor, never get a passport.

If you've got a passport, kindly lose it.

[blondeatlast]

29. True that. With that kind of attitude, that poster could start an incident

before s/he walked out of the airport.

:scared:

[supernova]

37. Seriously.

We are so used to Western ideals, we forget certain places on the planet do not share them, in a very immediate and practical way do they SO NOT SHARE them.

You are not protected by the Constitution when you leave this country. Americans (and this English woman too apparently.) forget that. And traveling to Europe or even certain places in Latin America now doesn't count because we all share certain common legal precepts.

The fact remains, when you set foot in another country, you are subject to their laws and legal system. Being ignorant of the law won't be an excuse.

I feel absolutely sorry for this woman. I do hope she gets out alive. But it will be by the hair on her chinny chin chin.

She obviously wasn't prepared properly for her stay.

[Marrah_G]

60. Which is why I will never visit a country ruled by Islamic Law

As a woman I would not feel comfortable or safe.

[cgrindley]

68. Those countries should be prevented by international law

of HAVING Islamic law. Islamic law should be against international law. No one should have to follow any religious law. It's just uneducated and superstitious bullshit.

[Beerboy]

79. I think you may have inadvertently stumbled on the whole nub. n/t.

Who's going to make Islamic societies illegal?:shrug:

[LeftishBrit]

158. I agree that theocracy is evil; but how can you prevent it in other countries

without war?

No point in international laws that can't be enforced; and enforcement would bring its own dangers - as we've already seen re Iraq.

Like Marrah, I have no intention of visiting a country ruled by Islamic (or any theocratic) law. Or any country that appears to be insanely xenophobic. Sudan is both, sadly.

[supernova]

69. I agree for the most part

Though, I think in the future, with the right reforms I would consider visiting Iran. Tehran, anyway.

If we all stay out of their way and don't agitate them by giving red meat to their phony "leaders", I think the Iranian people will find a way to have both Islam and something resembling a democratic state. They know their gov't is stupid.

[Beerboy]

102. Is that racist reverse sexism?

Shouldn't everyone be free to travel everywhere?

[Marrah_G]

109. It would be nice

But there are places in this world where being a woman can certainly cost you your life. It is bad enough for those born in those places, I would never willingly go to those places nor would I want my daughter going there.

Not sure what you mean by your subject line, but it is neither sexist nor racist to refuse to enter a country where women are brutalized and enslaved and the state sponsors it and in some cases demands it.

[LeftishBrit]

163. They should; but they aren't

And people should be free to be safe anywhere; but they aren't.

If a country is (a) extremely sexist; and (b) hates foreigners, then it makes sense for foreigners, especially women, to choose not to visit it.

[leftynyc]

141. I hear you there

There is a definite list of places I wouldn't dream of going. I'd get arrested in minutes with my bit New York mouth. That we're allied with countries like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan makes me sick. When I hear the pubs rant about how badly Sadaam was for his people, I want to scream. Yes, he was a disgusting tyrant who did deserve to die at the hand of his people, but half the people in Sharia law countries are tyrannized every day. The women are virtual slaves and this country says nothing except call them friends. Sickening.

[Dorian Gray]

161. She may have forgot that, Supernova,

but your assuming that she purposefully knew she was doing something wrong in naming the bear Mohammed. And is there a law on the books that naming a stuffed animal after their prophet is a bad thing? How could anyone know that.

I honestly don't think she was arrogantly flaunting their laws. And the fact that it's been elevated to this level makes me think that The Sudan needs some criticism right now. It's ridiculous that there is a fervor of this level going on. About a teddy bear. Who has she harmed?

[blondeatlast]

35. You missed the part about State Dept/UN advisories?

Please, stay home. You don't get subtlety well and the last thing this country needs is more ugly americans overseas.

[DangerDave921]

80. Ugly American???

So he's an "ugly American" for having the audacity to criticize a government that puts a woman in jail for naming a teddy bear the wrong thing? No, he would be an ugly American if he criticized their clothes or their food or ordered staff around in a hotel. He's not doing that. He's criticizing a government for committing an awful human rights violation. And he is totally right.

It seems that 99% of the posters on here excuse the Sudan's conduct. They may not agree with it, but they're sure not criticizing it. I've seen red-faced anger on this site when far less egregious conduct is committed by our own government. Why not some outrage at the Sudan for putting someone in jail for naming a teddy bear? Why not some outrage at a government that believes it has the power to tell you what you can name a teddy bear? This situation is shocking and outrageous, and if you truly believe in human rights and freedom, you should be angry too.

You can't excuse it on the basis of: "Oh well, it's a foreign country and she should have known better."

[treestar]

147. False choice

No, they don't "excuse Sudan's conduct" they are simply explaining that if you want to make the point while there, you end up suffering the consequences.

Having said that, however, I bet this lady had no idea she was offending the culture. Though maybe living there, she should know more about it.

I wouldn't expect to be able to go to Saudi Arabia and insult Allah in public without consequences, much as I think their culture is wrong and barbaric.

[BoneDaddy]

133. are you smoking crack

of course there are "ugly americans" and at best they should be pointed out and criticized, NOT being marked for death.

I love some liberals, who, because they perceive Islam as the opposition to Bush or Western hegemony, think that Islam is defendable...wake up.

This type of behavior should be condemned.

[treestar]

146. You'd at least expect them to follow their own rules

So you'd know not to go there or know that if you went there you'd be subjected to their rules.

[TCJ70]

28. So what about...

illegal immigrants whose first act in this country is breaking one of its laws?

How does this apply then?

"First rule of international travel is you do not under any circumstances, insult your hosts. It does not matter what you personally think of the country, it is all about appearing to do the right thing in those instances."

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TCJ70]

33. He brought up international travel

I'm just trying to apply it as broadly as possible. I'll drop it though if it's that important.

[supernova]

40. The subject is Westerners who travel to conflict prone areas

and think "it's all just like home."

It isn't.

Welcome to DU, TCJ70.

:hi:

[Beerboy]

50. Illegal-immigration into the U.S. only factors into your question

vis-a-vis Sudanese coming here. In that case, they'd do well not to be threatening to imprison/beat/kill middle-aged lady school teachers!
Welcome to DU!:hi:

[LeftishBrit]

81. I'm pretty sure there is no law against naming a teddybear 'Mohammed'

There may be a law against insulting Islam; but I am fairly sure there is no universal rule in Islam about this topic. The teacher wasn't trying to insult anyone; she took up a child's suggestion to name the toy after himself. Possibly naive, but that's all.

And in what sense is she an 'illegal immigrant'?

[Beerboy]

43. Excellent observation, leading to appropriate behavior.

A short anecdote: it's common here in Minnesota to let out a happy belch after a particularly good meal, right @ the table. Try that in Germany, and they'll say 'Mann macht's nicht hier', i.e., no body funktions @ the table.
I could only thank, and blame them, for serving beer w/ almost every meal.:beer:

[blondeatlast]

51. My husband is from India and we had to repeatedly ask them

not to do the same when they were here for the wedding and a visit. Mr. B had warned me about it but I was still caught off guard when his father did it the first time at a popular restaurant and I turned red as a beet. :rofl:

[Beerboy]

66. Thank god I didn't mention I was only trying to 'gas them'!

Then, "oh, so now you're calling the Polizei? To deport me, to the East?"
They would've either laughed their asses off, or called the cops.:beer:

[cgrindley]

57. Is Minnesota's full of hicks or what?

belching at the table? that's just bad manners.

[Beerboy]

74. Minnesota's full of Germans.

It's good manners to correct those who are offending the dignity of the household.

[cgrindley]

98. All body functions are equally disgusting (nt)

[supernova]

61. LOL! Cute story

There's lots of cultures that encourage belching at the table to show appreciate for the host/cook. Isn't China on that list too? :D

[Beerboy]

78. I've never had lead-powdered pastries in the morning,

and I can only imagine how asbestos cakes will react w/ the morning tea!:7

[Quantess]

155. Good thing we don't encourage the imprisonment

and whipping of people who fart or belch at the table.

[Beerboy]

30. No, that's Western culture/law.

Just because it's different doesn't equal retarded.
One would do well to be @ least familiar in a cursory way w/ the customs and culture of one's destination.
Just sayin.

[blondeatlast]

32. It's not just polite, it's a survival issue, as I mention above. Someone really dropped the ball

with this teacher.

[cgrindley]

42. NO. It's universal. It's a human constant

and if a particular culture doesn't believe in these sorts of rights, they are fucks.

[supernova]

49. You're saying what we all wish were true

But it isn't. It is not "universal," not a "human constant."

Many people are not "free" in the sense that we mean it. It is an incredibly sad fact of life.

We can do a lot of things to help, but insulting them in their country is one of the prime ways to do the opposite.

[cgrindley]

58. Yeah, it is.

stop giving the Sudan a pass.

[supernova]

64. I'm not giving them a pass on anything

I am saying it's an incredibly dangerous place that this woman obviously wasn't prepared for.

That's sad.

And i take back my earlier comments. Don't go past your driveway. You're not qualified to be out of your neighborhood,

If you live by your precepts we'd have WWIII

Oh... wait...

[cgrindley]

70. I agree with you

she was an idiot for going to such a hopeless nation.

But really, it's not my onus to respect some backwards country, it is in its best interest to join world civilization. I'm not the one who should be bending, it is the Sudan.

Just like the wretched and fucked up Saudis. They're in the planetary wrong. They're the ones who should be shamed into changing.

[Beerboy]

97. In Minnesota or the U.S., I happen to agree w/ your viewpoint,

but there's also something to be said for allowing the diversity of differing views on education.

[BoneDaddy]

85. Yes ...lets blame the woman who

made a cultural faux pas instead of legitimately criticizing the total insanity of an irrational relgion

[derby378]

2. At least she isn't getting the threatened 40 lashes...

But damn. This is really over the top.

[supernova]

59. Honestly, I might prefer the lashes

At least you get it and it's over with.

This has already escalated to a very dangerous chess game with her as a pawn.

[Marrah_G]

62. She may well not make it out alive

After seeing what they do to their own countrywomen it would not surprise.

[supernova]

65. True dat

:cry:

[Warpy]

4. The sentence will get her off the hook with the rabid clerics

both in Sudan and back home in the UK. Yes, the whole thing is utterly ridiculous since the children were the ones who named the teddy bear, but rabid clerics being what they are, they had to do something.

2 weeks even in a shithole jail in Sudan is tap on the wrist, not even a slap, and deporting her is doing her a favor.

Still, you have to feel very sorry for her. I'm sure her welcome home will be a nice one and will partially compensate.

[skypilot]

63. "...the whole thing is utterly ridiculous...

...since the children were the ones who named the teddy bear...

Phew!!! I was wondering when someone was finally going to bring this up. If the children didn't know that they weren't allowed to do this then how was she supposed to know? If a room full of Muslim children told me that they wanted to name a teddy bear Mohammed, I don't think it would have even occurred to me that I was offending their culture.

[treestar]

148. Good point

If that culture has that rule, it should be ingrained in the children already.

[madeline_con]

5. Will they jail parents who name their children Mohammed?

This is ridiculuos. The kids named the bear. Mohammed is as common a John or James in Muslim countries. Give me a break!

BTW, 300 kids are in this jail!?

[Beerboy]

34. It can be construed that the teacher was mocking the Prophet. n/t.

[shimmergal]

139. It can also be construed that

the Sudanese govt. is very insecure about the Islamic faith. How could the Prophet's accomplishments and teachings possibly be threatened by a teddy bear?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

6. Just three weeks ago a Pakistani male that I know from a class.....

.... spent time arguing with me about Islam and women. He insisted that the idea that the American idea that Muslims mistreat women is just a myth. There are many American myths, but this is just not one of them. Muslims *DO* mistreat women.

[blondeatlast]

20. SOME Muslims. so do some Christians, Jews, agnostics, atheists,,

Zoroastrians...

Belief isn't the reson this happens--acceptance of it is.

[Yupster]

137. Can I suggest a book?

"Infidel" It's by a woman who grew up in Somalia. Last name is Ali. Ayaan Ali if I remember right.

Anyway, it's her autobiography of growing up as a girl under Islamic law. Super interesting.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

126. Not correct. Women are being abused in Muslim countries routinely, and it's not just some women....

All Muslim women in many of the Muslim countries are being abused.

[madeline_con]

127. ALL Muslim women in SOME countries?

I have to say that's hard to believe. I'm sure their are very nice men who cherish their wives and other females in ALL Muslim countires.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

153. Really? Give me an example.

Islam is back way beyond the middle ages in MOST countries where Islam is in the majority. Women are chattel so they are not permitted to wear normal confortable clothing as it might display their bodies the way men display theirs. Aside from that, they're not permitted to drive, will be executed if they commit adultery, they're raped and abused by their males and not allowed to report it, or, if reported, the judicial systems are a F joke. Islam has not 1 good quality, whether it has been influenced by culture or not. If it does, you'd better start naming them to me with actual life examples of a country where the majority of women are benefiting from Islam. I await but frankly expect no examples.

[JohnLocke]

7. If I was Gordon Brown I would send in the SAS (nt).

[Bobbieo]

10. It is such a shame that some people cannot be honest

in their relationship with their own religion. They use it as a weapon.
Guess that is why I became an agnostic after my introduction to geology in college. Come to think of it, religion or the bible was never stressed during my childhood.

[leftynyc]

142. If that's the British special forces,

I agree. This prison has a notoriously bad reputation. Though she avoided getting beaten, she still may not come out alive. Unless they're smart and put her in some kind of solitary - but we already know they are not smart.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cgrindley]

15. Why should anyone respect Islam?

or any religion? They're all just juvenile and stupid. Why anyone would believe in such unscientific, unprovable and clearly unethical nonsense is beyond me. Religions should be banned.

[Ezlivin]

16. In a BBC interview, the Teddy Bear says he's ready to move beyond this incident

He'd say more but could get the stuffing beat out of him.

[Beerboy]

18. She did insult Islam, and she might have been teaching girls.

Educating girls could be mis-guided, and it's somewhat a heresy for an adult female to be an instructor to the Talibani (students).
She's an English born supposed-educator; one would expect she'd know more about the culture than say some unsophisticated obnoxious rube from America.
She's lucky to have received so much media attention, it literally saved her skin.
Now, if she can get out alive.
I'm looking forward to reading her observations from her corner of the Sudan.

[cali]

36. She wasn't just teaching girls.

She was teaching in an elite school that primarily educates the children of Europeans and wealthy Sudanese.

[supernova]

39. If that's the case, sounds like she

pissed off a parent in some way.... possibly the teddy bear issue is just convenient rather than the actual problem.

[blondeatlast]

45. Could very well be, but that's too complicated for the MSM to explore.

And if it's a wealthy private school, she sure as hell should have been prepped better.

I think you are right, there's more to this than the MSM wants us to know.

BTW, our friend upthread appears to have a passport. :scared:

[cali]

54. it's pretty clear what it's about and it's not Islam

It's about the Sudanese gov't trying to intimidate and keep people from interfering re Darfur.

[LeftishBrit]

76. You are probably right, unfortunately.

[Beerboy]

87. That's a guess, and nothing more;

where is there any connection to Darfur?

[cali]

94. it's a guess. I think it makes sense, but I could be wrong

and the connection to Darfur would just be the warning shot to the British Government that their nationals are vulnerable- and to other governments as well.

[truebrit71]

47. She did NOT insult islam. It was the KIDS that named the stupid bear NOT the teacher..

..this is a bullshit reason to victimise a foreign woman...

I wish that Gordon Brown would explain to the religiously insane morons that run that shithole of a country how things will be...you harm one hair on that woman's head and we'll take the lot of you maniacs out...no questions...no warnings...you're done. Got it Muhammed?

I am TIRED of playing nice with these freaks...they want to meet Allah? Let's show 'em the way...

[Poiuyt]

48. She must be really pissed at her students

They're the ones who came up with the name

[LeftishBrit]

75. I hope she will be fine...

could have been worse (i.e. she faced forty lashes); but it's still horrible enough.

Possibly she could have been better prepared. From what I can gather, Islam does NOT universally forbid naming a toy after the Prophet; so it's obviously specific to Sudan, or to a particular brand of Islam. But I think that she should have mainly been advised not to go at all; and certainly I'd advise against anyone going there now. I tend to think that extremely xenophobic countries should be allowed to have their way and see how they like it: if they can't treat foreigners decently, foreigners should avoid them - and then see how they manage without the contribution of other countries.

Unfortunately, this does not solve the horrendous and far more difficult problem of how they treat their own people.

[AuntPatsy]

77. I have absolutely no respect for such religious fanatics who cannot understand

that such actions are in defiance of what I would believe a God like entity to require.

And no one could ever convince me that such ignorance demands respect.

[BoneDaddy]

82. One more example of the insanity of Islam

Now before the apologists come out or decide to attack me, I am equally critical of Christianity, Judaism or any other example of religious insanity. But Christians and Jews are not reacting like this when their religion is "offended".

[YoungDUer]

84. Or the bigotry of knee-jerk attackers of people's beliefs?

nt

[BoneDaddy]

86. When their "beliefs" are totally irrational

they deserve criticism.

Edited: I love liberals who claim it is bigotry when you point out insanity.

[YoungDUer]

88. Again, you're not being coherent

It's one dose of Kneejerk and another dose of Irrational Ad Hominem against a faith because a handful of people are acting dumb.

[BoneDaddy]

96. No it is not

knee jerk. The problems in the Middle East wouldn't have the level ot the problems they have if Islam had a strong mobilized moderate and liberal wing. The fundamentalists dominate their governments, their schools and the near totality of their infrastructures.

Sure, this is not an indictment of every single muslim, but I tend to find that all the Abrahamic religions are irrational. We would have much of the same thing if we allowed the right wing Christian and right Jews to entirely run the show. Some may even say we already have with Bushco and they may be right in some sense, but moderates and liberals need to stop being so accepting to the irrationality of religion and it's poison and start calling it what it is...insanity.

[YoungDUer]

99. Whether or not organized faith is irrational is not the point really

And I don't think you know much about the Middle East from your descriptions; certainly you don't know more than me when I've spent time there.

[BoneDaddy]

112. Ah, Mr. or Ms. Expert

Criticizing a culture or religion's irrationalities does not mean I think the people from those cultures are evil or ignorant. I happen to have a great appreciation of their histories and contributions to the world. Unfortunately, much of the Islamic world has rejected modernity and embraced a toxic form of fundamentalist Islam that I find it hard, as a thinking person, NOT to criticize behavior such as I see in the Sudan.

I am of Irish background and I have criticized severely, the behavior of both the Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland, with much of their conflict founded in irrational relgious beliefs.

So keep defending the irrational "young" Duer.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

108. How can anyone who calls themselves a liberal defend fanatic religions?

They are indefensible. If there are peaceful Moslems who believe in the principle of 'live and let live', then I have no problem with them and welcome them in society. But the extremists, who seem to have taken over the faith, have corrupted it into something so intolerant of others that anyone who considers themselves a liberal should strongly oppose them. This is more than a 'handful' who are perpetrating these types of acts against women, against homosexuals, against anyone who doesn't share their fanatic religious devotion. This is not a kneejerk reaction. Why is it that there is a kneejerk reaction on the part of some liberals to defend any culture that does anything just because they are not Western? What about the thousands of Christian Sudanese who have been murdered by this culture/faith of intolerance?

[BoneDaddy]

113. Well said

yet I find a large group of "liberals" on this board that find some sort of need in defending Islam's beliefs, yet will totally criticize Christianity in this country. As far as I am concerned they are both irrational, but Christians are not going to the streets calling for the blood of someone named a teddy bear "Jesus". I think it stems from seeing Islam as a victim of Bush and Christianity and they end up taking sides, defending Islam, when as far as I am concerned they are two sides of the same coin and both need to be denounced for their insane belief systems that influence the secular.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

120. I agree - especially when the State is completely intertwined with a religion

Individual religious fanatics and cultists can commit any number of strange acts, anywhere and anytime. They will probably always exist, to a certain extent. It's when the State officially punishes a woman with prison and the whip when she gets raped, or when a famous writer criticizes Islam and a Fatah is launched against him, or when a State sends a woman to prison merely over a teddy bear that I get really perturbed. But I completely agree with you, all religious fanaticism, within any religion should be condemned. I don't believe in invading these theocratic countries. I don't think we should be over there killing them. I couldn't bring myself to hurt them (I can't even kill spiders I find in my bathtub). But I believe in verbally condemning them for the sick and twisted people they are.

[BoneDaddy]

130. Totally in agreement

I, by criticizing these irrational religious responses, am not advocating killing it's citizens, invading their countries or bombing them... I am, however, saying that we need not be shy in condemning such bizarre and irrational behavior everywhere we see it...whether it be in the mobs of Sudanese, the honor killings of young muslim girls, female genital mutilation or the more benign but equally irrational practices of the fundamentalist Christians in our own western countries (albeit their responses pale in comparison to those of more muslim nations).

We do have a duty to call them out on this and hold them accountable in ways that make sense...trade...for instance. If they do not want to come out of the 12th century then they should not be allowed to participate in the world arena without promising change.

[XanaDUer]

149. Thank you, BoneDaddy

Nt.

[spoony]

107. It's bigotry when you use the insanity of some to slur the whole.

Or do you really think all Muslims support punishing this woman?

[BoneDaddy]

114. I attacked the religion...not all muslims

When I criticize Christianity, I am not attacking Christians individually. I am criticizing the belief system they subscribe to. If that belief system is founded on irrationality which drives their behavior...you bet your sweet ass I am going to criticize it.

[spoony]

117. My sweet ass aside,

You're commenting on people's actions to slam their religion, so you cannot turn around and say you don't mean to criticise the people, since your entire attack (your word) is based on the deeds of these specific religious people manifested in a legal system run amok.

[MUSTANG_2004]

125. What's wrong with telling the truth about their religion?

It's a lousy religion. And yes, I've known some nice people who are Muslim. Doesn't change the fact that their religion sucks.

What could lead me to this conclusion?

Is it forcing girls to die in a fire rather than appear in public without the mandatory Islamic dress?
Or perhaps it's the honor killings, murdering a female family member for being sexually immodest?
Or wanting to kill a woman because of a teddy bear name?
Or rioting because they don't like some cartoons?
Or because insulting a long dead religious figure is a capital crime?
Or the nasty habit of stoning the rape VICTIM?

Hmm. So many choices... I'll pick... any one of the above.

[spoony]

140. Do you honestly not see that those things are political, not religious?

None of that shit is about the theology of Islam!

[BoneDaddy]

162. How can you possible extricate one from the other?

Is it PURE Islam, no. But the bombing of abortion clinics is not PURE Christianity. It is based upon a literal interpretation of the bible, the same goes for the fundamentalist version of Islam that is spreading across muslim nations. It is their religion and it needs to be criticized.

[BoneDaddy]

128. And what if I am by the very nature of criticizing religion

it falls upon the people who subscribe to that religion? So what?
If they subscribe to insanity...what does that say about them?

Does that make you feel uncomfortable?

Let me put in another way that you will most likely find acceptable.

Some cultures believe that female genital mutilation is an appropriate way to deal with emerging female sexuality. Are you suggesting that I must agree with such irrationality?

I certainly understand it from a multicultural point of view. I get why they do it based upon irration beliefs about women...but are you suggesting I should agree or condone such practices?

I highly doubt it.

So by the same nature, if I disagree with a religious view (ie: condoning the death of someone because they used the name of Mohammed innapropriately) does that make me a bigot? or someone who calls bullshit to an irrational belief?

[AuntPatsy]

110. There is no knee jerking reactions to this from anyone, common sense tells you that

that such beliefs that end with such horrors visited on individuals earn nothing but comtempt.

[BoneDaddy]

115. beautiful and succinct

nice job. May I steal your words and use them as my own in future discussions?

[Lorien]

159. Well put

:thumbsup:

[YoungDUer]

83. This is wrong but I'm not going to smack the Sudanese around with bourgouies anger

Sudan is a country where the entire social and civil society is fractured; it's unsurprising to see things like this. Of course Muslims in nations with decent education and civil society don't agree with this.

[BoneDaddy]

91. Then I expect a total outcry

by liberal or moderate muslims in response to this. Did you mean Bourgeios?

Multiculturalism is understanding what motivates people to act from their own cultural imperative. This way we can understand one another better. I totally understand why these Sudanese acted this way. I don't, however, agree with it as it is based upon an irrational belief.

[YoungDUer]

92. "by liberal or moderate muslims in response to this. "

And if it happens, you will probably never see it reported in the press.

[BoneDaddy]

104. Come on now.

don't try and sell me that one.

[YoungDUer]

93. In fact, why should other Muslims have to feel like they have to apologize for this?

They didn't do it. How many Americans cry out about all the shit we do? You don't have a responsibility to apologize for what other people do.

[BoneDaddy]

103. Actually I do think they have a responsibility of what is done in the name of their religion

as I expect Americans to make noise (like we do in here every day) about Americas behavior. As I expect Catholics to call priests behavior into question. As I expect police to police their own.

Get my point? If Muslims want the rest of the world to respect their faith, they NEED to denounce this type of irrational behavior.

[otherlander]

136. I don't think Muslims have to apologize

just because some nutcases believe in the same god as them. To denounce the actions of the fundamentalists, yes, but in Sudan that might get you killed, so I'm not holding it against them if those who disagree don't voice their disagreement.

[leftynyc]

143. Just how young are you? (eom)

[Marie26]

90. Did you see the update?

"Thousands of Islamic fanatics wielding clubs and knives are marching through the streets of Khartoum demanding the execution of teddy bear teacher Gillian Gibbons. As the mother-of-two started a 15-day prison term, protestors left mosques across the Sudanese capital to denounce the "lenient verdict" and call for the death penalty."

I'm sorry, that's just nuts.

[DangerDave921]

116. Not nuts

This type of conduct is not nuts. It is, unfortunately, far too rational and commonplace. Just like the death threat on Rushdie, the murder of the filmmaker who made the film critical of Islam, the threats of death when the Allah cartoons were published. This isn't isolated acts of insanity from one or two people. This is shared by many many people who believe they are following their religious beliefs. Until radical Islam can recognize and respcet freedom and free speech, it cannot legitimately be part of the world community.

In the U.S., an artist can put on display a cross in a jar of urine and be defended, as should be the case. In the muslim world, you do that with the koran and you will be killed.

[Marie26]

118. It's nuts & commonplace

Religion has a special tendency to make people nuts, which is why I'm wary of religious institutions in general. Teddy bears! OMG.

[Marrah_G]

95. Something should have been done about Sudan a long time ago.

4 years.....400000 lives gone......women raped publicly so they will shunned by their own people as unclean or just out-right murdered.

2.5 million people displaced.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

101. Meanwhile, millions of people being killed, forced from their homes in Sudan.

Perspective, people?

:shrug:

[closeupready]

119. Yeah, but that fact won't help sell a war in Iran, so nobody's interested.

n/t

[CJCRANE]

122. Also something else

that occurred to me...I heard on the BBC that the Teddy Bear protesters numbered in the 100's and maxed out at about a 1000.

And yet the anti-war demonstrators in Feb 2003 numbered what...10,000,000 (worldwide). The importance that is placed on protests like the Moh'd cartoons and these anti-Bear people seems grossly out of proportion compared to how little weight is given to anti-war (or other progressive) protests.

[Yupster]

138. The angry Sudanese mob is outraged by their

sorry country and will do something about it as soon as they have this whole stuffed animal situation taken care of. First things first.

[Catherine Vincent]

121. OMG!

CNN just showed the mobs of people protesting the teacher. Some of them had knives and machetes waving them in the air. They want this woman dead. This is screwed up. It was the kids that named the bear not the teacher.

Wolf said they had to move her to a secret location for her protection. I hope Britain will rescue this woman from that country.

[INDIA]

124. Here's a quote off the AP from one of those darling little protesters...

"It is a premeditated action, and this unbeliever thinks that she can fool us?" said Yassin Mubarak, a young dreadlocked man swathed in green and carrying a sword. "What she did requires her life to be taken."

Dear Yassin,

Do the world a favor, don't reproduce. You are officially the lowest form of scum on planet earth. You are sub-human. I value the life of any other living creature over yours. If I had the choice of saving the life of you, or a cockroach, I would have a very much alive cockroach on my hands. You and those like you are broken, brain washed, and irredeemable. You suck.

Regards,

India3

[Tulum_Moon]

129. The woman should have done her "homework"

Then maybe she would have avoided her situation.

[BoneDaddy]

132. Bullshit

Naivete and ignorance of a culture are not excuses for mobs to fly into irrational rage and call for her death. Perhaps a public rebuttal and call for an apology is called for, but this is insanity...

excuse my french but are you fucking for real?

[INDIA]

134. Is that you Yassin? lol!

How was the protest today? Kill any infidels? Are you sure it isn't an affront to your douchebag prophet to post on DU?

You just made my day! Seriously, should Jews in Nazi occupied Europe have done their "homework" and converted to Christianity in the early 1930's? Unbelieveable. You should be ashamed of yourself. And just for the record, a lot of muslims are confused as to why the Sudanese are having this overblown reaction as well, so how was a British schoolteacher supposed to know? Get bent.

[Tulum_Moon]

135. Sorry!

I forgot my :sarcasm: sign. I do believe she should be let go to return to her country of origin.

[leftynyc]

144. Yeah, I'm sure it's written somewhere

in state department advisories (or whatever the British equivalent is) that says when the kids in your class want to name a teddy bear muhammad, you shouldn't let them.

This is insane and seeing it defended on a progressive board is disturbing.

[ohio2007]

150. She should have been teaching Islam,not democratic process!

Did I mention she is also a woman !!
where is her ha jib ?

Schools should only be teaching Islam.
poetry and liberal arts are all infidel poisons meant to suppress the muslim hoards!

oh....this is sarcasim........it means I am bashing the madrases educational system that the Saudi's $$$ export throughout the world.

[Yupster]

160. Actually I think the opposite

I think people all around the world should publicly name everything Muhammed that they can think of and it should be led by Muslim groups.

[SidDithers]

152. Religions are nothing more than organized insanity...

fuck 'em all.

Sid

[tjwash]

156. The truly sad part is...

...they'll have a next to impossible time finding any teacher from a western country who will be willing to go there in the future, just as Libya is having problems finding any nurses or doctors to go there at present.

In the end the people who need the help the most are hurting themselves the most.

[donsu]

157. I think the leaders of countrys, world wide, should be yelling for

sanity to prevail and not let that woman step foot in any jail


just because a group of religiously insane men want to kill/jail her, the world should not stand by and watch.

same with the poor girl in S.A. who was raped and now needs lashed

what's wrong with humans to let these things happen.

fear of religiously insane men?