Do you think America will ever recover? Do you think things will inevitably get worse? (Rant)

[Locut0s]

First let me say that I'm Canadian in case anyone is wondering so everything I see I see from across the border. Question is do you think America will ever recover from Bush's presidency? Before bush got into office, and for the sake of this thread lets ignore how he got in, things were looking great for the US. There was going to be a huge projected budget surplus, the economy was booming, and while maybe not being the most liberal country in the world things were looking up for the US socially too. Now we are in a situation where we are looking at going into an economic recession at best, perhaps even a depression if things get really bad. The US is embroiled in a no win situation in Iraq, even if you pull out things are only going to get worse. And even if you pull out there is no doubt that a lot more money is going to be needed to be spent on at the very least monitoring the theocratic terrorist haven the mid east is going to turn into. Money you don't have given the war has cost 500 Billion already and who knows maybe a trillion or more when all is said and done. Where the hell is the money going to come from to pay that off? Then there is the social security mess. The medical insurance mess. The educational system mess. The environmental mess. The violent crime mess. The time machine that is the neo-cons stances on social and moral issues. No matter who wins the next presidency they will inherit one hell of a sh!ty mess!!! Sure America has dug itself out of holes in the past but never when faced with the global pressures it now faces (oil running out, china on the boom etc etc). Question is do you think it's possible to recover?

[Cobalt-60]

1. It's possible

But the economic royalists have done an immense amount of damage.
The Education system can be repaired pretty quickly. We've got a lot of well qualified people
put out of work by the Republicans that could teach if offered decent pay.
And the teachers we have would be more efficient without Republican oppression
The Republicans will have been stopped from re introduce widespread ignorance into the population.
As for those already failed by Bush League education, we'll just have to bring them up to speed.
Socially I think the fascist pig ignorance promoted by the Republicans will recede into its usual Southern and Rural ranges.
Economically the Republicans have used the apparatus of the state to convey billions to their cronies.
Between the outrageous debt and damage to our currency, this will be serious trouble.
It is essential that at least some of this cash be recovered from the cronies, if only to make examples of them. this sort of corruption can not be tolerated.
Once our scientists and engineers are free of Republican oppression we should be able to make rapid progress in clean energy. That should be good for a few trillion.
I could go on with it, but the main thing is to take down the Republicans.
We owe virtually all of our problems directly to the Republicans, and it's time for them to go.

[Johonny]

31. America has recovered before

It took a while but America recovered from Vietnam and the Nixon years, America recovered from the civil war, America recovered from the great depression... I think America can recover. I just don't think Americans really understand how bad Bush has been and how poor the American infrastructure has fallen. So it's very unlikely they will elect a rebuilder in 2008. Which means the slide isn't over yet.

[MADem]

2. Recover. We have a very resilient form of government.

Anyone who thinks we haven't had crap hit the fan before is very young.

Nixon. The McCarthy era.

We've had this uber-patriotic bullshit, and 'enemies' and "With us or against us" shit before.

Love Canal. Hell, that led to Earth Day and the Superfund.

We get past it. We always do.

Years from now, when we are dead, geezers will be calling these the good old days, and whining in similar fashion.

[tom_paine]

14. That might be true, but fails to factor in the coming energy and environemntal crises

Both of which will lead to that inevitable belt-tightening, suffering and chaos the Bushies love so well because they make such delectable profits off it.

It is those things which, I think, make our recovery truly unlikely (but not impossible, there is always hope).

Look at America in the 1930s and how WE responded to the Great Depression. Now look at how Hitler responded to the catastrophe, which was in the same cynical way the Bushies exploited 9/11, for their own personal gain.

I hope you are correct, MADem, but I just don't see how it could be, especially since we are losing our democracy at the time it is most greatly needed to help save humanity.

Or, to view it from the other side, our environmental and economic crises are coming at just the moment when the nations has been shocked, reprogrammed and traumatized into the identical mentality of the 1930s Germans who stood by or helped while German Bush gained power.

I hope you are right, but I am almost certain that history says our chances from this point are very very slim.

I apologize for reality.

[MADem]

21. My glass is half full. Energy problems? We have the answers already.

We have the sun, the wind, water and waves.

We just need to get off our asses and find the best and most cost effective way toUSE them.

Once we start using them, the other environmental issues will right themsleves.

While FDR did a yeoman's job in dealing with the aftereffects of the 29 crash, don't be fooled--a LOT of people fell through the cracks, a lot of people STARVED, or froze to death, or died from untreated illness or abuse... a lot of people did unsavory things just to get a meal. And those WPA camps weren't a picnic--that was hard labor, but it beat going hungry.

It wasn't all Walton's Mountain up close and personal. Plenty of people had the "Screw you, pal--I got mine" attitude.

If we look to history, we learn that it is always darkest before the dawn. If anything, history tells us we'll fix this mess and move on to another one...as we do.

[tom_paine]

26. Good luck with that. I do not have a fairy tale view of history in my head.

I well know everything you are saying is true. And yes, it IS usually darkest before the dawn.

But you are referring to individual acts of barbaism and/or cruelty, while I am referring to a disparity in National Policies set by the Leaders of their respective nations.

So, I am going to stop right now and say that we agree to disagree, but that I hope it is you who's vision prevails as "future history".

Peace. On that we can agree upon.

[MADem]

27. Well, having lived a lot of that history, perhaps I have reason to be more sanguine. NT

[Beausoleil]

28. We have had crap before

but imagine the corruption and incompetence of the Grant, Harding, Hoover and Nixon presidencies, the Great Depression, red-baiting of the 50's, and the Vietnam War all occurring simultaneously. Throw in climate change and dwindling resources, which we've never dealt with before. In the past we have always managed to stop digging ourselves in a hole. This time we may have dug too deep.

Also, we have never been subjected to the amount of corporate propaganda we have now. We Americans could always count on our common sense when our levels of education weren't so high. Now we are so dumbed down as a nation even though we have very high levels of education, we have no "common" sense and are extremely susceptible to the propaganda.

It will have to get much worse than it is now before a lot of Americans wake up. Until then, all bets are off.

It could soon be much worse than it has ever been before. I agree that we have the capacity to save ourselves and our country, but do we have the guts?

[MADem]

30. My glass is have full, and we do have the guts.

When Love Canal was spilling over with crud, toxic waste was EVERYWHERE, Nixon was in charge, there were riots in the streets, the military industrial complex was in FULL swing, we had acid rain and rusty cars, government corruption on a profound scale, an Imperial President...

I heard the same 'Sky is Falling' shit back then. Some people thought the world was ending, that we'd lose our form of government, and we'd never be a democracy ever again!

This little shit in the White House isn't tough enough...and he's almost gone, too. JAN 09, here we come!

[Double T]

3. It will be EXTREMELY difficult to recover; if it is possible to recover it will take.......

many decades. The USA can not outsource and in-source tens of millions of FORMER US Citizen's jobs to foreign nations and foreign workers without it having a devastating affect on the quality and standards of American life. It will take INTELLIGENT, SERIOUS and INDEPENDENT new leadership that does not bow and take orders from the corporate criminals before there is any hope for the reconstruction of former American life. Americans will also have to learn that THEY can no longer have it ALL! There are far too many human beings on this planet ALREADY, with billions more on the way over the next several decades; the planet's carrying capacity will force most to struggle for a reasonable life in the immediate future. bushco has destroyed our economy's stability in his effort to serve his masters, the super filthy rich individuals and corporations. The bailout of the corrupt criminal corporations by lowering the prime rate and discount rate is a desperate attempt to keep the whole economy from sinking into a depression; the dollars value continues downward with each lower move. It is difficult as hell to watch America falling apart while denial, insanity and corruption remain the driving forces. No wonder the rest of the world no longer trusts US; we're not to be trusted.

[Angela Shelley]

4. The individual households have to decide

Most of us are currently "between a rock and a hard spot". In my honest opinion, the difficult situation has arisen because we are not willing to sacrifice our "perceived standard of living". This country and its individual households have lived on credit for so long, we can do nothing other than "perceive" that we are doing better than the rest.

There are many actors and many agendas in the USA today. We, the individual households, cannot place the blame on anyone else than ourselves. We have WANTED, WANTED, WANTED for the longest time, and we have failed to think about the consequences of our demanding behavior until after the bill was due. Our elected officials, as sinister and greedy as they may be, have taken the easy road, which was paved with our gratitude for their efforts to "protect our best interests".

Americans are often described as demanding and insatiable creatures, always wanting more.

Until this description is proved false by behavior of a majority of the US population, we will continue to live in an increasingly uncomfortable situation and no other country will be willing or able to lend a hand.

[SoCalDem]

5. If, it does, it will take a generational "left turn" to undo

the damage..

Remember.. we are BROKE..we owe EVERYBODY...most of our military stuff is wrecked too and will need replacing...

The rest of the world has seen us "drunk, kneeling in a puddle of piss....puking in the toilet"... and no one's "holding our hair".... they are standing there watching & laughing their asses off..and maybe taking a few pictures to post online..

Once the image has changed, it never really goes back to what it was..

[Angela Shelley]

8. I agree with you, except

for the statement that the military equipment needs replacing.

[SoCalDem]

11. "Needs" ..according to the military..who happens to gobble the lion's share

of our budget,..

Most of the equipment in Iraq has been cannibalized to keep others operational;, and according to reports I have read, MOST of is has been reduced to JUNK status..and remember a LOT of it was "borrowed" from reserve & guard units who won;t be getting much of it back in the condition they sent it..if they ever get it back..

You have to KNOW that the congress will approve whatever's "necessary" to rebuild our military accountements back..bigger, badder & better than ever.. The military weapons contractors are salivating...

[Demeter]

6. You Will Know the US is on the Road to Recovery When

the rich start paying taxes again, and the corporations are regulated, taxed, and stripped of their "immortal person" status. A national health care payment system will be another good indicator that the thugs and criminals are out of power.

[mmonk]

7. Depends on the definition of recovery.

Survive, most likely. Ever be the same country? I don't think so, not for a generation.

[Angela Shelley]

10. Do you want the same country again?

[mmonk]

12. It had a lot of warts but was more restrained and a part of the world.

I would prefer better, but we are way off course. In otherwords, if you thought it was bad before, you haven't seen darkness yet. I lived through great change (especially the 60's). Everything is reversing without a mechanism for correction.

[tom_paine]

16. I think that I agree with you, mmonk

The first step to being better is to get us back to where we were, if not in exact detail then at least to be on the side and a member of the Free World again (I like some of observable criteria people have posted, and I generally agree with those, too) instead of the League of Monstrous Tyrants.

And yes, I am well aware that things can and likely will get much worse, especially if, like the Germans, we are forced to ride BushPutinism to it's bitter and Final Solution to the Liberal Problem (what exactly that will be, I cannot guess, I just know that it will almost certainly be if these trends remain unreversed).

[Tesha]

13. *THAT* is a very insightful question! (NT)

[mmonk]

15. The real question is do we like the direction we are heading.

Over time, we have progressed through fits and starts and setbacks. I still remember the separation that was unacknowledged apartheid in the US and I remember riots and protests for eveything from livings wages and economic justice to equality and racial justice. Right now, we are in a bad direction but without a framework of restraint as I believe the system is failing which would facilitate any positive direction.

[Tyler Durden]

9. Sadly, I tend to agree with the words of John Adams.

"Democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts and murders itself. There was never a democracy that did not commit suicide."

John Adams, Letter, April 15, 1814

[Vinca]

17. If a Republican is elected, no. If a Democrat is elected, probably.

At this point there is a failure mindset and that will continue if we're unlucky enough to have President Rudy. Democrats aren't miracle workers, but someone open, honest and optimistic could do wonders.

[Echo In Light]

18. Possible? Yes. Plausible? Doubtful. Probable? Highly unlikely

Historically, genuine change for the better, for people of all walks of life, only comes from through their own involvement/organization and actions. That is, from the bottom-up. Americans are perversely passive in this regard, grotesquely even, and have been conditioned to believe the exact opposite of that histyorical model: it's better to sit back and do nothing {shop, TV, sports, beer, sex} while "experts" solve their problems.

The trouble with that equation is, they fail to understand how it's usually those "experts" who are fucking them over royally to begin with. And from there, what do many do?...they admire and look up to people with that level of social status! A being from another planet would surely marvel at the prevailing structure.

So, no, I seriously doubt anything substantial will change anytime soon, short of another false flag or economic catastrophe which would send millions into the streets demanding change. And of course there's plenty of "anti-terror" legislation in place to deal with those disenfranchised people.

[bdamomma]

19. it will take all of us to eliminate this reign of terror from this

thuggish regime, those who planned this takeover must be held accountable.

[sendero]

20. Countries, like people....

.. have to hit rock bottom before being willing to commit to the changes required to make things right again.

Americans by and large don't see the country as you (and I, I pretty much agree with you) do. They think we're hitting a little rough patch, they are used to this happening and everything getting back to normal in a few months or a couple years worst case.

But that is not going to happen this time. Regardless of the absurd stock market, always reacting to Fed cuts rather than real economic progress, we are at the beginning of a long term rough patch. Economic woes, coupled with energy squeezes, a depleted military and various other institutions teetering on the precipice, are going to make it clear to average Americans that things are not all right. But it still isn't obvious to most Americans just how fragile everything has become, perhaps even to most legislators.

I believe America will recover, but I don't see it happening in less than 15-20 years.

[blues90]

22. I certainly have no answers or ideas

The way things are now so very screwed up and divided with all the power in corporate hands I don't see how we can pull out of this mess .

Each day something else pops up that makes it seem even more horrifying .

All I know is at my age I doubt I will se the change for the recovery and hope that I will make it through the next few years for various reasons .

[TahitiNut]

23. Sadly, I don't see any change in direction whatsoever.

It's going to get a lot worse before it gets better. I see people continuously in denial of the core issues of corporatist oppression (class warfare). We spout empty homilies about being the "land of the free" and the "home of the brave" but we're a nation of cowards and outlaws as long as we invade and occupy nations based on lies and greed, we torture and imprison people without habeas corpus despite 1,000 years of "law," and we traffic in human labor and profiteer in human suffering and death.

We imprison more of our own citizens than any other nation on earth.
We deny health care to more of our own people than any other "developed nation."
We are among the most oppressive governments on earth in imposing the death penalty.
We have a larger and growing gap between the rich and the poor than any "first world" nation.
We've reduced organized labor to less than half it was a mere decade or two ago.

... and we sneer and demean the political leaders who'd stand up to such oppression.

We delude ourselves with empty rhetoric like 'moderate' and 'centrist' and persist in our denial of the pervasive fundamental corruption of our political and economic systems. The vast majority delude themselves into thinking it's just a matter of an election of some 'appproved' candidate ... more of the same, just at a different rate. I firmly believe that's a vast underestimation of the gravity of the conditions in this country.

[Angela Shelley]

24. Go, TahitiNut, Go

you´ve got my vote

[Solly Mack]

32. !

I'm all warm and tingly

[LaPera]

25. Get real....we haven't even come close to touching bottom....

wait until the Bush/republican economy comes crashing down....it has to, the filthy lying greedy republicans are still stealing our tax dollars, our money flooding into corporations via the "war" for profit - which is really just an occupation to suck up tax dollars for corporations and to steal Iraqi oil....which not a dime of it has been paid for....it's all on credit and not even being counted with the national debt which will be over ten trillion dollars when Bush leaves office in 2009.....

We the tax payers will be stuck paying and programs will be cut.....It's going to get very ugly here in this country in the next ten years....many with money are getting out now, moving overseas sending their kids to nice, quiet private schools.....This is republican ideology....we've seen it and experience it six years of complete power we see what their ideology is really about, greed, stealing tax dollars, corporations profits & subsidies over people.....and when they stolen all they can get away with they point the finger and blame the Democrats and liberals.....

What absolute hateful, selfish, lying racist pigs are these republican fascist!!!!

[Akoto]

29. Will we recover? Certainly.

In terms of global history, the USA is a child nation. We've only been around for a bit over two hundred years. There are other countries out there that are truly ancient by comparison. They've been subjected to far more threats, both external and internal, but they continue on - many with the same names and traditions they've had since long before the US was a twinkle in the Founders' eyes.

Will we survive? I don't doubt it. Will it be the same America we know today? Maybe, but probably not. There will come a point (sooner than later) when we must change in order to continue on. Simply abandoning oil would cause drastic alterations in our society, for example, and that's something we're inevitably going to do.