I heard California may start allowing kids to chose their gender

[Quixote1818]

and so kids who are born with male genitals that feel more like females will then be allowed to go to the girls locker room and vice-versa.

They were talking about this on the local radio station here in New Mexico a while back and almost everyone calling in thought the idea was nuts! I mean people were going off about this as "San Francisco Values". I was wondering if I am the only person who actually thinks this is a good idea?

I base my opinion on the following situation. A friend of mine use to have a roommate who turned out to be gay. They worked at the Grand Canyon and lived in company housing and so there was a shower right in the middle of the room where they both slept. It made my friend really uncomfortable getting in and out of the shower realizing this guy seemed to be attracted to him. Anyway, this guy who happened to be gay went through several male roommates as everyone moved out once they found out he was gay and even dressed in drag (I have nothing against gays by the way just telling you what happened). Anyway, the gay fellow finally ended up rooming with the female manager and she knew he was gay and things then worked out perfectly! They got along great!

Based on this situation, it just makes sense to me that someone who is gay should probably go to the locker-room where they are not attracted to the other people in there because that is really their true gender no matter what genitals they have. Me personally? I could care less one way or the other which locker room gays and lesbians go to.

I would be interested in hearing from people who feel more like the opposite sex. How do you feel about this? Which locker room would you feel more comfortable in? How do you feel about California doing something like this?

I think this is something that should be out in the open so people like me can understand what its like for those who feel like they were born in the wrong body and how something as simple as going to the locker room effects you.

Thoughts? Lets see if DU is anything like those calling into the radio show, or not?

[IndianaJones]

1. I heard that gays are attracted to everyone of the same sex in a locker room...

and we should all be afraid.

[yardwork]

32. Why are you afraid? It doubles your chances.

[IndianaJones]

42. get serious...it threatens my marriage. nt.

[yardwork]

46. No, it's gay marriage that threatens your marriage. Get your memes "straight."

[IndianaJones]

47. gays in the shower is a slippery slope toward gay marriage. don't try to confuse the issues. nt.

[yardwork]

49. George Bush is a great man so stop saying that.

[Rockholm]

35. You should see my gym. You'd be afraid.

Trust me...nothing to look at. Most of these guys would be flattered to know that someone found them hot. I can't wait to get out of the locker room when I'm done. I hate it when the straight guys check out my big biceps, six pack and tight ass. Not to mention....my thingie.

[Dorian Gray]

56. Hah...

That was my reaction. What's the purpose of this? To keep young gay boys out of the male locker rooms and vice versa? It seems like a pointless exercise.

[madeline_con]

59. We might be recruited!

[msongs]

2. would be better if kids were allowed to choose their PARENTS nt

[hulklogan]

3. I think you're a bit confused here but I appreciate your drive for understanding.

Gender identity is not the same thing as sexual orientation. There are people with penises who identify as women and who are sexually attracted to women. There are people with vaginas who identify as men and are sexually attracted to men. In other words, transgendered people can be homosexual, heterosexual, or bisexual.

Allowing kids to self-identify in gender terms is completely unrelated to questions of sexual orientation.

I am a non-straight man and I wouldn't have a problem using either locker room. I only use a locker room to change clothes.

[yardwork]

36. I echo that - OP is somewhat confused by I appreciate the effort to understand.

Gay people are no more attracted to everyone of their same sex than straight people are attracted to everyone of the opposite sex. If you are straight, do you leer at everyone of the opposite sex? If you see a naked person of the opposite sex, are you unable to control your urge to leap at them and attempt to have sex? No? Offended by the very thought that anyone would consider you to be such a pervert? Gay people are offended by this assumption, too.

I am a lesbian. When I change in the women's locker room, I am not attracted to anybody other than my partner. I'm not interested in the bodies of all those strangers. They could be men, women, cats, or dogs. I'm not interested in them, and I'm certainly not going to leer at them or make a pass at them.

Personally, I find the whole segregated sex thing to be a bit silly. It seems to be based on some kind of puritan attitude that people's bodies are shameful and everyone needs to be protected from seeing anyone else naked, especially anyone whose genitals look different. I find the preoccupation with keeping naked people away from one another to be somewhat perverted.

The idea that gay people are wandering around looking for opportunities to accost and rape people of the same sex is just silly.

[Evoman]

76. You know I agree with a lot of what you say, but.......

I think don't think women and men mixing in locker rooms is cool. Maybe gay men would be okay changing in either change rooms. But women, even lesbians, should change in a womens locker room far, far away from men.

The reason I state this is that most men are okay individually, but in groups they are assholes. I don't want to think about a large group of men, and one woman, in a locker room. Especially if it was a group of young men.

It's not an issue of puritanical attitudes. It's an issue of a woman's safety.

[yardwork]

78. I don't disagree - as a lesbian, I wouldn't want to have to change in a men's room.

However, I think that a lot of this is really overblown.

[NMMNG]

4. I assume you're referring to SB777

And it merely prevents discrimination based on gender, gender identity, sexual orientation and a whole host of other things like race and religion (funny how the whackjobs aren't complaining about that). Unlike what the RRRW nutjobs are saying it doesn't say that kids can have cross-gender romps in the bathrooms, that schools have to build "transgender" bathrooms (the law doesn't mention bathrooms at all), that the schools have to "teach homosexuality" or any of the other hysterical nonsense people have been blathering about. Basically what it says is that discrimination is not allowed. Period.

Read it yourself if you want. http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/07-08/bill/sen/sb_0751-0800/sb_777_bill_20070409_amended_sen_v98.html

[Quixote1818]

7. That was it SB777. Thanks for posting the link

It doesn't surprise me that they made it into something it wasn't.

[NMMNG]

12. Of course they did

The mere thought of GLBT people having the right to live free of discrimination sends them into seizures, and they feel compelled to respond with innuendos and outright falsehoods.

[murielm99]

10. Thanks Buffy.

That was a great explanation. I didn't know what the hell was going on.

[endarkenment]

30. I heard that posts that start with "I heard" are frequently

propagating quite a load of nonsense. Well that is what I heard anyway.

[NMMNG]

50. LOL

And groups that have "Family", "Heritage" and/or "Concerned" in their names are likely to be full of crap as well.

[Der Blaue Engel]

5. I think you're confusing gay with transgendered

Gender identity and sexual preference are two entirely different things.

This appears to be what you heard about, and it's not quite the way it was portrayed on the radio:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/08/27/MNGL2KQ8H41.DTL

[Quixote1818]

21. Thanks for posting that article. That explains it much better than what I heard. nt

[Crunchy Frog]

6. Interesting memory that brought up.

I had a college friend, and she had a friend in her dorm who was a gay male. She used to let him stay in her room while she was changing, since she figured he wouldn't be attracted to her. One time she was changing her clothes with him in the room, and he casually said, "ya know, sometimes I get really turned on by women's bodies". He was really shocked when she started screaming at him and threw him out of the room.

I really don't think it's appropriate to have kids using the oposite sex's locker rooms. I would think it would make for alot of discomfort all around. Also, gender confusion wouldn't necessarily mean a homosexual attraction, or lack of heterosexual attraction. Gay kids would still be using same sex locker rooms right?

Also, I wouldn't think that just because a kid is going through some gender confusion, that you can necessarily jump to the conclusion that s/he is really the opposite sex. I went through a phase of really wanting to be a boy when I was little. It was not a permanent thing. I think it's putting too much pressure on a kid to impose a decision like that on them on such an early age. JMHO.

I would expect this policy to get alot of opposition from the public. Probably not a very well thought out one.

[murielm99]

8. My brother had a roommate who was gay.

The roommate told him he was gay before they roomed together. He asked my brother if he would be uncomfortable with a roommate who might bring a man home to spend the night with him. My brother said no, unless the prospective roommate was going to be uncomfortable when my brother's girlfriend spent the night.

They got along well, and my brother learned quite a bit about tolerance and friendship with people who are not exactly like him.

I guess I thought gay men were attracted to other gay men. I guess I thought that was why my brother and his roommate were so comfortable around each other as roommates and friends. I guess I need to go to bed and stop replying to inane threads.

[Mr_Monday]

9. How young are we talking? nt

[Quixote1818]

11. Post #4 has a link to what they were talking about

though it sounds like the host of the talk show may have been making some things up to make the show more controversial.

[David Zephyr]

13. You make a leap that people are either straight or gay. That is not the case.

"it just makes sense to me that someone who is gay should probably go to the locker-room where they are not attracted to the other people in there because that is really their true gender no matter what genitals they have."

How many locker rooms are you proposing? Most humans, whether they admit it or not, are neither exclusively homo or hetero. That fluidity makes your locker room recommendation silly.

Recently, we had a DU'er suggesting that gays should not be allowed to use public restrooms either.

This site is becoming less and less becoming by the day.

[Quixote1818]

18. I didn't make any concrete statement one way or the other

I was more interested in which situation gays and lesbians felt more comfortable. I posed that statement in a context that I could be wrong and that I wanted a better understanding of how they felt. It helps if you pay attention to context.

[David Zephyr]

19. Statement and context.

Your brief post included a lot of context about your first hand experience with a gay person who apparently creeped out your straight friends. Context supplied.

Your brief post provided this comment: "it just makes sense to me that someone who is gay should probably go to the locker-room where they are not attracted to the other people in there because that is really their true gender no matter what genitals they have." Statement supplied.

A lot of context and statement for such a short post.

In any event, why does this trouble you so much?

[Quixote1818]

24. I was troubled by the anger from all the people calling in to the show

toward California and some of their intolerance toward gays and lesbians. It seemed the gays and lesbians couldn't win in their eyes. They can't join the military because they "might come onto others of the same sex" and then when someone writes a law that promotes programs that allows gays and lesbians to do things that might fit in better with how they feel inside then the callers to the program got upset about this. I assumed that if California was doing something like this that it was done out of promoting tolerance for gays and lesbians and for helping them be who they really are. I don't know why you see that as prejudice on my part? :shrug:

Buy the way, that gay fellow was a good friend of mine and he was a good friend of the guy who moved out. The fellow who moved out just didn't feel comfortable rooming with him because he seemed to watch him every time he got undressed to get in the shower. So, even the guy who moved out had no problem with gays and lesbians but like any normal person he didn't like being watched just like a woman wouldn't like being watched by a man. We were all good friends for years after this happened.

[yardwork]

44. I don't know about your friend, but most gay people are very discrete.

We have to be because we're liable to get thrown in dumpsters or beat up or murdered or yelled at or fired or kicked out of our apartment at the slightest reminder that WE ARE GAY!!!!

It is rare for a gay person to leer at or come onto someone who isn't likely to be interested in their advances. As a woman, I can tell you that straight men seem to have far less compunction about coming on to women, but somehow most of their behavior is tolerated and even applauded. I've had male supervisors hug me and say very inappropriate things, both in private and in front of other coworkers. I've had male coworkers attempt to hold my hand when we drove in a car somewhere on business!

[hunter]

14. I don't think about locker rooms all that much.

Joey, do you like movies about gladiators?

[Mr_Monday]

15. Way too early.

Seriously. When my brother was younger he had feminine tendencies, liked to play the "girl" in our games , and had a lot of girl friends. However, he's 20 now and is in a serious relationship with a woman. I wonder what would have become of him had he been enrolled in this school?

[hunter]

29. Um, I don't know, what?

Maybe he wouldn't have that copy of TransAmerica stashed away in the back of his sock drawer?

I spent a lot of time during my childhood getting called "queerbait" and being thrown into dumpsters and such.

Turns out I wasn't gay, but I'd still rather be in the kitchen cooking with the women than watching football.

[LostinVA]

34. I suggest you read Buffy's posts above

And if he's transgendered, he's transgendered. Things wouldn't have turned out different, if he went to that school, even if the proposal is what you seem to think it is.

People don't choose their sexual orientation or their gender identity. They're born into it.

[yardwork]

39. "What would have become of him?"

Obviously, he would have been infected with the gay! He would have been forced to assume an identity not his own, which would have ruined his life - ruined it! Just the fact of being able to choose with bathroom to use would have been the death knell for any future opportunities at all.

Do you see how absurd this is? In many European countries there are not separate bathrooms for men and women. I guess that's why they are such madhouses over there, with universal healthcare, daycare, public transportation, and so forth.

[TahitiNut]

16. Well, God knows we can't have people lusting after one another in the showers!

After all, what would the world come to?

:sarcasm:

I couldn't give a shit - well, actually I COULD - and maybe we should just have one BIG unisex shower.

[LaPera]

17. What state do you live in dude?

Do they force everyone there to listen to republican radio night & day.....They can make up any bullshit and people will believe it, absolutely anything......No wonder why republicans get 60 million votes, people in some places will believe anything told to them simply if its TV or radio.

[MonkeyFunk]

20. You heard wrong

[Quixote1818]

22. See post #5. That article explains it better

and without the bathroom twist from the conservative host.

[MonkeyFunk]

23. read the article

You heard wrong.

[Quixote1818]

25. Read my exchange above

I am quoting exactly what the radio show was about. The whole show was about gays and bathrooms etc. It was the host of the show who spun it that way for ratings it seems. I know that article is different from my OP. I realized that once I read the link to the law posted above.

[dsc]

26. Here is my response

Let's assume you took PE in public school and thus had to use a locker room. Let us further assume you did this for 4 years with an average class size of 25 (24 students and you). Let us further assume that on average each year 10 students left and a new 10 students came in. Then you would have shared a locker room with 54 other people of the same gender. Now lets assume that gays make up 6% of the population. Then 94% would not be gay. Now let's look at the odds that you didn't share a locker room with a single gay student.

In order for that to have happened all 54 of the other people would have to be straight. Each kid would be independent of the other kid and the probability of success would remain 94% throughout. Thus you multiply the probabilities. .94 times itself 54 times is .94^54 which is .03539 or about 3.5%. Not terribly likely. If we use the 10% figure, which is likely more accurate, then the odds become .00338 or 3/10 of 1 percent. Since you don't mention being hit upon in your post you are either spectacularly lucky in that you didn't share a locker room with evil gays or you must be uniquely unattrictive since we all know we can't keep our hands off other men.

[David Zephyr]

28. As only dsc can put it all into a proper framework.

I'll have to bookmark this for the future.

You can be amazing.

[SoCalDem]

27. Easier solution..

1. Private bathroom/showers..
2. Making it less "dangerous" for gay people to BE gay, and still have employment/lodging/LIVES..
3. Make lodging SINGLES to start with and allow the lodgers to choose their own roommates

It's a "No Duh" situation.

[LostinVA]

31. So since I'm a lesbian, I should use men's locker rooms?

I'm not a man, nor do I want to be a man. Nor do I use locker rooms to check out women.

Gender identity has nothing to do with sexual orientation.

[Rockholm]

33. Your post is stupid and pointless.

[yardwork]

37. I think that is a little harsh. It's good that people ask questions.

These misconceptions are very common in the U.S. When people ask questions in a polite post like this, it gives others the opportunity to explain. I think that is good.

[SoCalDem]

38. Don't hold back..and get all sensitive or anything

:eyes:

[DangerDave921]

40. wow

If I was in HS, I'd pretend to be gay just to go in the girl's locker room and ogle all the girls.

[LostinVA]

43. Once again -- there is a huge difference between sexual orientation and gender identity

Just because I'm a lesbian, doesn't mean I feel like I'm a guy.

[yardwork]

45. That's exactly what we're talking about! Straight men think that it is perfectly fine to ogle girls

I realize that your post may be a joke, but there are plenty of straight men who would do exactly that if they thought they could get away with it. Yet, somehow, the fear is all over what gays will do.

[DangerDave921]

69. Ogling

OK, ogling is not really permissible, but how about discreet glances? I've liked looking at women since I was 12 or 13, and the urge hasn't left me yet. Keep in mind we're talking about high school students with young, raging hormones. If you start mixing the sexes in the locker rooms, there's going to be trouble somehow, somewhere.

And I have a tough time believing young women are going to feel happy having naked young men in their midst.

[yardwork]

71. If you read the actual article, you'll see that "trouble" is what this law is intended to prevent.

A transgendered person forced to use the opposite sex's dressing room is "mixing sexes."

What is so frightening to some people about allowing people to determine their own sex? Why is it somehow ok for "society" (whomever that may be) to determine someone's sex, and not allow the person in question the right to say who they are?

Think about it. You're saying that a person born male should be forced to live as a female just because somebody decided at their birth that their genitals looked sort of female. You're saying that this male should be forced to use a woman's bathroom and a woman's dressing room just because somebody else decided that they are female.

Why not leave it up to the individual to decide what sex they are?

[DangerDave921]

72. Decide?

I think the penis and the vagina are pretty clear indications of what sex you are. So I don't really understand your point about letting people decide their sex.

If you're talking about those few individuals whose private parts are mixed, or unclear, or something else at birth -- you got me. How common is that? And should we change things for 99.9% of the rest of the kids whose sex is plain to see?

[yardwork]

73. You are mistaken. The penis and vagina are NOT clear indications of what sex a person is.

You are simply wrong about this. Some people are born with "clear" genitals but in other respects they identify as a different sex. There is so much more to sex identification than just the genitals.

Many more people are born with "unclear" genitals, and forced to occupy an assigned sex.

The purpose of a democracy is to protect the minority, so yes, we should protect the whatever percent of people, even if means causing the majority to accept a broader definition of sexuality than they have now.

Why is this so upsetting? What do you care what somehow else chooses to be?

[DangerDave921]

74. I don't care

I don't care what a person chooses in their personal life. But if you're talking about up-ending everyone else's privacy and interests in the matter, then it's a different matter.

Have you asked how the young women will feel in the showers and locker room when young naked men start milling around? Do their concerns have any meaning to you? Or is it all about your selfish self-interest?

And actually, if a bathroom or shower is just there for utilitarian purposes, why is it a big deal whether a guy who feels like a woman has to use the traditional mens' room or ladies' room?

[yardwork]

77. It's clear that you haven't read the article and don't know what you're talking about.

[DangerDave921]

81. Probably wouldn't be the first time. eom

[Lex]

41. W. T. F. ??

You've got a lot separate things mixed up in your head.


For one thing, just because you are straight and have a gay roommate, it doesn't mean that he is attracted to your ugly ass.

Gay doesn't = dressing in drag.

Dressing in drag doesn't = transgendered.


What a mixed up piece of garbage that OP is.

[slackmaster]

48. Plain old gender unambiguous heterosexual male adding his two cents

It must be very hard for someone of any age who is not comfortable with his or her gender. I feel like mine was set in concrete at a very early age, so it's something I've never had to worry about other than the problems of being male itself.

I really feel sorry for someone who has to fight to find an identity, and to be accepted. It seems to me that would be a very serious social and emotional handicap.

Unsolicited commentary off.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

53. WTF? "gender-appropriate users?"

The only people who won't tolerate this are transphobic.

And ALL this law does is make sure that it's against the law to discriminate based on gender identity. NJ already has such a law and it hasn't caused any "problems" here.

Jeebus.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Chovexani]

58. That's the most ignorant post I've seen on here in a while

And considering the levels DU has sunk to in recent years, that's saying a hell of a lot.

Please watch TransAmerica and get some education.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

65. It's not "s/he" -- it's "she"

And a transgendered woman is a woman. I recommend you read Jenny Boylan's book. Men who have a crossdressing fetish tend to do it in private, btw. Crossdressing is different than being transgendered.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

66. I recognize the difference

which is why I don't want males in my dressing room.

[LostinVA]

67. A crossdressing man wouldn't be in your dressing room

A transgendered woman is a woman, even if she is biologically male.

[yardwork]

70. They probably don't want you in theirs, either.

Just guessing.

[LostinVA]

75. self delete

dupe

[cboy4]

68. Why is it that I couldn't care less if a female to male

person saw me with my clothes off in a locker room, yet you'd go ape shit?

You sound as though you have very low self esteem and lack confidence.

If I were you, I'd utilize all of your energy improving yourself, as opposed to wasting that energy on committing a hate crime battery.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

52. I, for one, welcome our new hermaphroditic overlords.

Would I say this is time to panic?

Yes, I would.



But seriously, this has "knee jerk" written all over it.

[defendandprotect]

55. Great--!!! As I recall some info on this subject, something like 14% of all births . . .

involve non-traditional genitals --- ???

That seems hugely high, but it's the figure I remember ---

Occasionally, there is programming on this subject --- if anyone gets better info on it, please post.

And then, there is inner sexual identity ---

I especially like "In the Life" for covering these subjects so well ---

[madeline_con]

60. Do the other locker room attendees get to have a say?

Some of them might be uncomfortable with something "as simple as" undressing in front of someone of the oposite sex.

How do those who want to got to the other gender's locker room supposed to prove they're legit?

[LostinVA]

61. The OP is taken from a bogus RW radio show -- the law is a simple non-discrimination law

Read Buffy's post for what the law actually is. NJ already has such a law in place. Naturally, the RWers tried to put a scary spin on it.

[madeline_con]

62. Thank you for the clarification.

I'm guilty of jumping to conclusions sometimes. :blush:

[LostinVA]

64. No problem

[Elspeth]

79. So I can't choose to be a male and start acting entitled?

Rats!

[cgrindley]

80. I call BS (nt)