The Gay/Straight Divide

[ruggerson]

What's needed in this ongoing discussion, imho, is for people, both gay and straight, to really LISTEN to each other and try to walk, if not a mile, then at least a block or two in another's shoes.

Face it, if you're straight, you're never going to fully understand the depth of the estrangement from the world that gay children and gay adolescents feel every day of their lives. You will never understand living your entire childhood on the outside looking in at a Norman Rockwell painting of a happy hetero family and wondering why you were made differently.
So ask questions. If you have a family member who is gay, ask them about their childhood and find out about their journey as they grew to realize that it was SOCIETY that was fucked up, not them.

And if you really hear them, and really listen, then maybe you'll understand why issues like culturally bigoted Snickers commercials and prejudiced basketball players are vital issues to ALL of us, both gay and straight. And how they profoundly affect the cultural mosaic that makes up this country. And how one bigoted basketball player, spouting hatred, might have such a profound effect on YOUR already stressed out teenage kid, or his best friend, that they might just try to harm themselves. Or be harmed by other ignorant teenagers.

And if you're gay, try to give some heterosexuals, who are asking legitimate questions borne of non-familiarity, the leeway to occasionally sound clumsy and ignorant. I've seen far too many instances of some gay folks jumping, with an angry pack mentality, on someone whose only crime is ignorance. Yes, there are some really offensive things written here at times, and those people need to be taken to task loudly and decisively. Bigotry rears its ugly head here far too often, and it should be crushed. But for those average straight folks, who are merely trying to learn more about gay people and the way they experience the world, doesn't it make more sense to calmly and reasonably have a dialogue with them and inform them rather than vent at them or mock them?

I'm sure this post will offend people on both sides of this divide, which shouldn't be a divide at all. But, oh well.

Building bridges, rather than throwing bombs, it seems to me, is a far more effective way for all of us to move forward in the valiant struggle for human rights.

That's my Kumbaya moment for the evening and I'm sticking with it.

[Erika]

1. My son in law and his partner are gay

I love them both and never gave a second thought to their sexual orientation. What business is it of mine?

Let them be.

[pnwmom]

14. I'm confused. Do you mean "step son"?

Because a son-in-law would be the spouse of your child. I'm assuming the "partner" isn't your child.

So the other choice would be that your son-in-law has a gay partner -- and a wife, too (your daughter)?

[POAS]

15. Add me to the confused list!

[IndyOp]

57. Before Erika answers: I am guessing that her son-in-law

was at one time married to her daughter and that even after the divorce she still thinks of him as her son-in-law and loves him and his partner.

Or "son-in-law" might be what you call someone who was already an adult when you married his father...

:shrug:

[pnwmom]

61. Yeah, he could be a former son-in-law.

" 'son-in-law' might be what you call someone who was already an adult when you married his father... " -- but someone who marries your father is a stepparent, no matter how old you are when it happens.

[lligrd]

2. Nice Post.

k&r

[bliss_eternal]

3. Recommended.

:hi:

[bridgit]

4. awwww, noth'n do'n, i'll k&r, but this one is all yours...

:rofl: :kick:

[donco6]

19. That's the spirit!

Well, at least that's the spirit I'd expect from you, anyway. I hate adding people to ignore, but in the true spirit of this OP, I'll do it for you.

[Smarmie Doofus]

5. Why would this offend *anyone*? Well put. n/t

>>I'm sure this post will offend people on both sides of this divide, which shouldn't be a divide at all. But, oh well.>>>

[Nicole]

6. K&R

:kick:

[ropi]

7. great post

Ruggerson,

Perhaps an even better idea would be to have the straight people write to you what they don't understand and after reading all of the posts sent to you--post a synopsis of common questions, comments and concerns...then after that has been done..allow the LGBT community here to answer in private and take the answers that all seem to match what the straight persons want to know. With this in mind, on each side you could add certain comments/questions/suggestions that you felt could facilitate the dialogue in order to keep it civil. Yeah, it sounds like a lot, but it may keep the flame war down if you offered to take the answers/concerns/questions and edited them. I know on both sides you're going to find a lot of the same questions and the same answers.

that's my 2 cents.

[Swamp Rat]

8. k&r

:applause:

[pnwmom]

9. Great post, ruggerson. The only thing I'd add is that

many children of gay people are also growing up feeling estranged from the outside world, especially when their parents need them to help keep secrets.

Gay people have always and will always have children -- the only question is whether they have them secretly (that is, by pretending to be straight, often with unknowing partners) or openly. Openly is better, for everyone involved. Society needs to change to accept these families. And, in the meantime, GLBT parents need to accept that their children are growing up in "gay families" and also may struggle to feel like they "fit in" -- even when they personally are straight.

[yewberry]

50. Three cheers for our LGBTQ parents!

We love you, moms and dads!

[jannyk]

10. k&r

:applause:

[cui bono]

11. Well put. I have to say, I am hesitant to post in any threads about homosexuality

because I got jumped on in a couple threads a while back. I honestly do not think I deserved it. In one I think the person completely misunderstood what I was saying because if I remember correctly it ended up with him/her saying what I was originally saying. The other was because I suggested that someone may have been a bit hypersensitive because of their experiences. Who knew that saying that was such a taboo, especially when I expressed in the post that I'm fine with gays and I was trying to reach an understanding and even posted that I was sorry if it came across... I don't remember how I worded it, but I expressed that I hoped that it didn't come off the wrong way. And yet the reply I got had a couple of angry smilies in it and was really aggressive and obnoxious.

And I do not consider myself ignorant about this although I cannot empathize with what it is like to live life as a gay in a homophobic country, even though a lot of women seem to think I'm gay and hit on me at Home Depot. ;) Seriously, I live in a very gay neighborhood in Los Angeles and I love that there are men who are able to be openly affectionate in public here.

But with the reaction I got I just want to tell the person to STFU rather than continue a dialog. There is a time for anger about the situation and the cause, but that time is not when someone who is clearly not anti-gay is trying to engage in a discussion about the topic. Today there's a thread up about all the things gays are accused of on DU and in it the posts that got deleted most were by gays getting mad at straights expressing their feelings. If there can't be open discussion without attacks from both sides it's only going to get worse. Just because someone belongs to an oppressed group doesn't mean they get to be righteous and lash out with anger at every post that doesn't agree with them and it doesn't make that anger an acceptable response. Imho it isn't and it simply creates a bigger divide.

I was also told by someone once that most gays here like to be separatists. I would rather think of everyone as one group striving for the equal rights of each and every one of us, realizing of course, that we're all different and we all have our own social identity and issues.

Anyway, I'm sure I'll get flamed by a few and put on ignore and that's fine. I just felt like expressing my views since there's been a few threads on the topic today.

Peace.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

13. Someone actually said that most gays here want to be separatists?

:rofl:

Hold on.

:rofl:

Okay I think I'm done now.

:rofl:

Okay, seriously now...that dude was on crack.

[POAS]

16. Nobody really wants seperateness

We all, whether we admit it or not, want to be included.

When one is inherantly "different" society makes it hard to be included so we tend to gravitate to those most like us. That doesn't take away our desire or need to be included in the larger society it just changes from "I" want to be included to "WE" want to be included!

[cui bono]

53. I believe you're correct. I think the thing to think about is

that something made that person feel that way. And as I said, something made me feel like not participating in threads about homosexuality here. So I think that's one thing to look at, what's making people feel/think that? But instead of wondering if they're contributing to the situation, some choose to ridicule and attack, as evidenced by some of the other replies to my post in this thread, and that isn't going to change things except to reinforce those feelings and alienate people further.

They could have just as easily asked who was the gay person who attacked me or made reference to that and tried to see if there was a reason that happened and should they look at what they're doing to create those feelings and what can they do to change them. But instead just honed in on the one who felt that a lot of gays here want to be separatist and went into defensive/attack mode.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

56. Actually, I went into have a sense of humor mode.

[TahitiNut]

59. "we tend to gravitate to those most like us"???

Shit! I must really be in the wrong place. :eyes:

[mondo joe]

25. For what it's worth, Cui, I feel the same way - and I'm gay.

The STFU attitude is unfortunate in the extreme.

Bigotry is a real thing - but to me that means it can be discussed and demonstrated through logic and reason. That's gotten lost far too often, and has been succeeded by personal authority, which to my thinking is not only fallacious but counter-productive as well.

There are a lot of gay voices. Please know that.

[cui bono]

51. Yeah mondo, I know and I don't judge all by the words of a few.

But it did make me stop feeling like adding my thoughts to certain threads - and in fact, stop clicking on most of them - knowing that participating in those threads wasn't going to change my mind since I'm already totally pro-gay and pro-gay rights and by saying anything I was only opening myself up to attacks so I thought "fuck it". Now that's not an attitude I like to have and I would think that's not the attitude the gay community wants to nurture in the people who are on their side. And if they're getting me to feel that way they sure as hell aren't going to change the minds of anyone who really is a bit homophobic or bigoted.

I posted in this particular thread since I liked the way the OP laid out his/her thoughts and felt I could express my thoughts here. I hate feeling that I can't - or don't want to - do that on a progressive board.

:toast:

[NMMNG]

32. Oy vey

I was also told by someone once that most gays here like to be separatists.

Yeah, I heard the same thing about blacks, Hispanics and all those other minorities. :sarcasm:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

36. Who told you this?

I'd like to ask them if they know a seperatist commune for girly pervy lesbians who hate womyn's music and body hair, and think that straight porn is usually the best. It's so hard to find one for women like me.

[cboy4]

37. :)

[DarkTirade]

12. Hear hear. :)

Of course, for those of us who are bi, but didn't realize it until we were older, we have the advantage of having both perspectives.
I just wish I'd realized it earlier... there was one guy in high school that, in hindsight, I totally had a crush on. :)

[MH1]

17. Nice post, but...

Face it, if you're straight, you're never going to fully understand the depth of the estrangement from the world that gay children and gay adolescents feel every day of their lives.

A person who can see will never know what it is like for a person who is blind.
A person who can hear perfectly will never know what it is like for a person who is deaf.
A person who easily remembers faces and names will never know what it is like for the person who has tried everything but simply cannot.
A person who easily remembers strings of numbers or codes will never know what it is like for the person who simply cannot.
A person who has "typical" emotional interactions will never know what it is like for someone on the autism spectrum.
A person who can easily focus on the task or situation at hand and ignore distractions will never know what it is like to cope with ADHD.
A person who has never tried living on a vegan diet will never know what it is like to try to find vegan food in restaurants and to have to change your social patterns while dealing with the really dumb and sometimes offensive questions of your family and associates.

And this list goes on quite long.... (readers please forgive me if I've excluded your particular source of estrangement or at least "difference" with your planet-mates).

When you add it all up, I bet it's a pretty sizable chunk of the population who know exactly what it is like to have to cope with being "different" in some way.

Somebody will probably question whether these differences create the "depth of the estrangement from the world" that the gay person faces. Not being gay, I couldn't make that comparison. But having to deal with a couple of these issues with myself, my family, or close friends, I think it is unfair to presume to know what someone else has to deal with. (In fact I would hazard a guess that if someone perceives that attitude among some gay activists - that somehow the "plight" of gays is more deserving of compassion and activism than these others - it could be a source of resentment.)

I think we'd all be better off if we recognize and respect all the differences among us, and never presume to know what the other person is going through. And just because you don't know how a person you meet is "different", you just ought to assume that they probably are in some way, and behave respectfully on all levels.

Finally, I think the "divide" exists politically and culturally, but in actual biology and behavior, it is probably more of a spectrum with the population distributed all across the spectrum (maybe not evenly) - the sooner our society wakes up to that, the sooner we can just get on with living peacefully with each other.

(let the flames begin...)


edited for typo.

[pepperbear]

20. no flame here. you're right, but.....

A person who can't see, a person who can't hear perfectly,
a person who can't easily remember faces, a person who can't easily remember strings of numbers, a person who doesn't have "typical" emotional interactions, a person who can't easily focus on the task or situation at hand, and a person who has lives on a vegan diet: all are less likely than gays to experience violence, name calling, bullying, and ostracizing.

[LeftishBrit]

35. Not sure that's ALWAYS true

The vegans yes; they may come in for some ridicule and accusations of 'crankiness' but it probably won't reach the point of real intimidation or violence.

But people with disabilities do get ridiculed, ostracized and bullied, especially at school; are statistically more vulnerable than non-disabled people to within-family abuse; and are more likely than non-disabled people to experience poverty and unemployment, and to end up living on benefits - in itself something that can make people a target for abuse and ostracism.

What is perhaps most specific to gay people, is that right at the moment some religious groups are campaigning very viciously against them, in a way that they are not currently campaigning against other groups. People may be ostracized or even beaten up or murdered for being black, or Asian, or disabled, or refugees; but the violence is not being justified in the name of God.

But I think that there is an important point here. Many people are 'different' in some ways, and most people have some characteristic that some bigots could decide to target them for. Increased acceptance of differences - all sorts of differences - will be of benefit to most people in the long run. Right-wingers like it when members of different targeted groups (I won't say 'minority' groups, because some of them, like women, are not minorities) compete with each other about whose needs and problems are, or are not, most deserving of attention and accommodation. It helps them to 'divide and rule'. As one of your founding fathers said, 'we must all hang together or we will all hang separately'.

[lumberjack_jeff]

55. As a father of a child with Autism, I think the gulf may not be so huge.

Kids with developmental disabilities get all those things, but the treatment doesn't really end when they grow up.

[coznfx]

65. I think roughly equally as gays to experience those things

are those who are moderately to seriously overweight. I speak as one who grew up chunky (not obese, but still got bullied constantly and beat up occasionally), joined the service hoping to shape up (and did for a year or two),went through his twenties and thirties about 60 lbs overweight, and am now 50 and carrying about 110 too many lbs on a 6' frame. And I still have to deal with the punks and bullies (but haven't been beaten up for a while - 330lbs is kinda intimidating whether muscle or not)

[donco6]

18. Cool. K&R

[justiceischeap]

21. I think what creates the divide

Is that us gay folks are under attack by our Government and our country and we've been used as a tool to create division in this country. Then we come to DU, a place we may consider "safe" and as the Dems like to say, all too often it's "More of the same." We are clearly under attack by some folks here.

For example, we're told that because there are people dying in Iraq we should focus on that because that's more important—but the people that say that don't stop to think of the war being waged against homosexuality and there are casualties in that war and it's been going on for a very long time.

We're told by some that our reaction to the Snickers' commercial was an overreaction or that we're too sensitive. Guess what? If we said nothing about it, it would be "more of the same." More of the same people not thinking about the consequences this commercial could have to the gay community and that it wasn't making fun of homophobia but subtley stating, "If you're gay, it's not okay."

We're told that if you're a gay athlete, especially a strong, black male, then the straight guys are going to get raped in the shower.

Some had the audacity to say gay people cost us the election in '04. What cost the election on '04 was not having a strong platform and candidate to stand up to the attacks that were lobbed at the gay community. What good is winning an election if you're disregarding a large part of your party and to then turn around and blame us for nothing we had no control over? We certainly didn't put those measures on the ballot. We aren't responsible for hate that is used to divide the nation—it's straight people who generate the hate that is then used as a tool but somehow we still get blamed.

These are just a few examples from memory of things I've seen on DU and then you wonder why there's division. I personally attempt to talk rationally when I come across thoughts such as the above but not everyone wants to hear that they are wrong. They are too headstrong to realize that what they think or feel may come from misinformation so that leads to anger by some.

Basically, when you feel attacked by those that you perceive as people who would be on "your side" then hostility rears its' ugly head.

On a different note, below is an example of an image that I came across in my industry that I have to deal with and this sort of "speak" is used all too often and goes unchecked. This is an image of a free t-shirt given out at a conference. Maybe this is the sort of thing that makes us "cranky" especially when we feel the same sentiment here at DU from time to time.

[Obamarama]

22. When it comes to most DUers, ruggerson, I think you're singing to the choir.

Most people here "get it."

It seems that the increase in the number of assholes on DU is proportionate to increase in the number of members over the past year.

In addition to all of the wonderful things you emoted in your thread, I think it would be helpful if we simply refused to engage some of the idiots who tend to post flamebait or generally insensitive comments. I think if these people were to propigate their ignorance in a vacuum, it would be easier for the rest of us to point and laugh at them because of their insidious ignorance. I don't think we're really going to change that many people or save them from their own ignorance at this point.

That being said, as a gay man I've not suffered from discrimination, at least not that I'm aware of. I've been afforded an exceptional amount of opportunity, both personally and professionally, and I really have never felt that being gay has been an obstacle to anything I have wanted to achieve in life.

I also know that for every gay person like me, there are scores of others who have paid a heavy price for simply being gay, and what might feel to me like an annoying comment is very, very real and offensive to them.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we should choose our wars of words more judiciously. Where reason and discussion can prevail, sieze on that opportunity. Where stupidity and ignorance abounds (and that goes for some of the more over the top straight AND gay responses I've read recently), ignore it and let it sink, sink, sink to the bottom and into oblivion where it belongs.

[carolinayellowdog]

23. Categorical disqualification

Had a kumbaya moment myself on a long drive after reading some threads illustrating the divide. In five years here as a DUer, no black Duer has ever told me that my observations and opinions of racial matters are categorically disqualified from consideration because I'm white. No woman has ever told me that my perceptions of gender issues are categorically disqualified from being considered credible because I'm a man. No straight DUer has ever said that as a gay person my opinions on marriage and family issues are totally devoid of credibility. No international DUer has ever said that as an American I can't possibly speak to issues about their country. But I have had a GLBT DUer dismiss my opinion as that of a straight person, which I'm not. When I said I wasn't then the implication became I was disqualified because some kind of traitorous Uncle Tom. And then straights who agreed with their opinion and not mine somehow signed on to that whole categorical disqualification meme. This illustrates a mechanism the recognition of which is therapeutic. When someone wants to dismiss your opinion or information without carefully analyzing it, the simplest mechanism is to assign you a category that disqualifies you from being taken seriously.

We're about to see a real explosion of that among the supporters of different candidates with the primary season ahead.

[MedleyMisty]

31. I think it's all in the attitude.

I'm female.

I've got no problem with men legitimately discussing women's issues. What I would have a problem with is men defining women's issues and telling women what they can be offended by and what can be defined as sexist.

Like I said in a previous thread about the Snickers commercial thing - I don't think that most people had a real problem with heterosexual people who didn't find it offensive. The problem came when people who didn't find it offensive said that no one else should find it offensive either and that those who did were too sensitive and shouldn't take things so seriously.

Like the OP said, the key is listening. Some people seem to skip the listening and barge into threads and try to force their opinions on others.

Okay, like...hmm, trying to think of an example dealing with women's issues, since that's what I'm most familiar with.

Let's say that we were talking about a rightwing radio show that called Hillary Clinton a feminazi bitch or something.

If a man wanted to post in the thread and really listen, I think that would be cool. If a man came in and started posting, "Why are all you women so upset anyway? It wasn't offensive to all women, it was just a personal insult. Lighten up." then people would get upset.

I agree that we could all do a better job of listening to each other. However, I do think that if people from the groups in power want to be listened to, they have to drop the idea of forcing their opinions on others. Like in my example, a much better way to express ignorance would be "I don't understand why it's offensive to all women. Could you please explain it to me and help me understand?"

Since I don't know what it's like to come from a position of privilege, could you explain your point of view and what sort of attitude you would like to see from members of oppressed groups?

[hfojvt]

49. I would like to see the whole "groups in power" idea dropped

Groups are not in power. Let's say, for example, that 99% of the people 'in power' (whatever that is) are straight white nominally Christian males. Yet, if it is still the case that 95% of other straight white nominally Christian males are not in power it is ridiculous to say that SWNCM's are 'in power'.
What really gets me is when people do not want to make society less selfish, less greedy, less authoritarian, less hierarchical, less oppressive. All they seemingly want to do is to have a fair shot at being the domninant.

[ruggerson]

40. I am witnessing this phenomena

in other threads and it is indeed disturbing. FWIW, your analysis sounds head and shoulders above some of the flame throwing we see around here on a daily baiss.

[mondo joe]

54. Excellent post. Thank you yellowdog.

Logical, and well stated.

[mondo joe]

24. Thanks Ruggerson. As a gay man I've been quite embarassed by a lot of the threads

and posts lately that try to represent to voice of the gay community.

[Occulus]

26. Just keep in mind that some of us are permanently damaged

Some of us have to live with two different sets of parents not wanting us for different reasons, some of us have to deal with having been verbally abused every day of our childhoods. Some of us know their parents have a 'favorite' child- and they're not it. Some of us have had everything we ever worked for yanked away by our very own.

Those things leave scars etched like acid through one's very being. The fact is, a whole lot of us are sick of "fighting the good fight" and getting our teeth kicked in for our troubles. And please, believe me when I say that the very worst wounds are the ones that don't show at all.

Those of us who are embarrassing you may, to our own minds, be being polite. That and that alone should wake some of us up to just how much damage has actually been done, not by those here, but by those in our pasts. Try to keep in mind that those people each represent themselves and their experiences, and not a whole community of people.

[mondo joe]

30. Those things are all true. Just the same, we are responsible for how we conduct

ourselves.

There have, sadly, been a number of self appointed spokespersons for the gay community.

But I strongly support everyone coming out to speak about their own experience.

[Puglover]

41. I'd be interested

to see where anyone has said that they are speaking for the entire gay community.

[mondo joe]

43. I'd say a lot of the disagreements lately have included comments like

"you're telling the gay community it's wrong". Or when individuals reach a point of disagreement they've argued that an opinion is anti-gay, rather a difference with the poster.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

45. I doubt he'll be PMing you any links to back up his statement anytime this century.

[Chovexani]

48. A-fucking-men

It's why I don't even click on GLBT threads outside the GLBT group anymore. I'm tired of the bullshit and maybe I'm just being selfish but I'm sick and goddamn tired of "educating" folks. (I've had to do enough of that offline wrt race issues lately)

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mondo joe]

28. Really?

Please cite any instance in which I have given cover to homophobes.

Thank you.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

29. As a lesbian, I completely agree with your post.

:thumbsup:

[Tyo]

39. My two cents on a pre-coffee Sat AM

I've pretty much had it with being told that our issues are variously too divisive, election-losers, have to take a back seat to more important stuff, and need to be seen in the context of all the other crap that's going down. In other words, our turn will come, but not now. Screw that On the other hand I tell myself I ought to be grateful for anyone who is at least somewhat supportive as opposed to being a rabid glass-chewing Rightie. Kind of like a dog who is happy that he has a new master who feeds him and doesn't kick him like the old one did.

[mondo joe]

44. For what it's worth I don't think, nor have I ever said, our issues are too divisive

or election losers. I do think it's worthwhile to focus on those issues instead of arguing with people who support us that they are homophobes because they thought Crash deserved the Oscar over Brokeback Mountain.

[Tyo]

46. I was speaking more in general terms

rather than addressing your points specifically. Sorry if I came across as targeting you.

As for which one should have gotten the Oscar, I think that's a valid question on a couple of levels. If one simply thinks that Crash deserved it cuz it was the better movie then fine. If they thought it should have gotten it because they felt Brokeback was too "targeted" and not applicable to a general audience then screw 'em. I think this applies to a lot of "gay" issues and topics. I'm always curious about the reasoning and motivations behind a stand.

[Gormy Cuss]

33. I hear you, but here's an observation.

The time to expect calm and reasoned dialogue is not when emotions are running high. Innocent bystanders who walk by a street brawl are liable to be punched. Similarly,in a discussion thread where there have been repeated posts by willfully ignorant or intolerant posters, a well intended yet naive comment may elicit a swift and not very kind rebuke.

I'm here to build bridges and I don't tolerate posters who are here to throw bombs, but I do understand why some posters react after bomb attacks by lobbing their own hand grenades.

I agree with you that LISTENING is an important part of any meaningful discussion here.

Just my two cents.

[LostinVA]

38. Very good post Gormy -- as usual

[ulysses]

34. "which shouldn't be a divide at all"

True. The work of lifetimes, though.

In the interim, I would suggest that we consider, as someone else mentioned recently, who benefits from pitting groups of people against each other.

[TahitiNut]

60. You get TahitiNut's Saturday KSOTO Award. Congratulations.

:hi: :silly:

[ulysses]

66. do I want to know?

:hi:, TNut!

[fishwax]

42. for straights, I think an important part of "listening" is toning down the reflexive defensiveness

I think you've made a great post. I agree that sometimes straight people say offensive things out of ignorance, not of malice, and that there is rarely a shortage of other posters (gay or simply more aware) to point out their ignorance, sometimes harshly. And I can understand why some of those straight people might raise their hackles in defense--but that is really an instinct that needs to be quelled, if we're going to make progress on this (or anything else).

People need to have the leeway to say (some) things out of ignorance, because some of them will learn as a result. And on its best days, I think DU is a place where that learning can take place, thanks to an army of knowledgable and/or thoughtful and/or funny posters.

At the same time, though, people need the leeway to say things out of anger, especially when they've had to put up with the kind of crap they've had to put up with over the last few weeks. Sometimes it's obvious that certain posts were meant to--or simply don't care if they do--offend, and those posters deserve no quarter. Fuck 'em. Other times, though, it can be awfully damn hard to tell whether a poster is ignorant and willing to learn or simply willfully ignorant, and at times like this, I find it hard to fault folks for erring on the side of irritation :)

And there are so many "get over it" or "move this shit to the shiny object of the day forum" threads and posts that, when a straight person posts something attempting to create a consensus or understanding, it's tough to tell whether the poster is being sincere or passive aggressive or simply piling on. As someone said upthread, a street brawl is not the place to expect a lot of reaching out.

It is not the responsibility of every gay poster to patiently approach every ignorant remark as the well-intentioned misstep of a would-be ally. It is the responsibility of would-be allies, though, to learn from their mistakes--avoiding the defensive tendency to respond to legitimate anger with reflexive anger is a major step in that.

So part of listening, I think, is understanding where that anger comes from, should you find some of it directed at you. Eliminating homophobia is not about never having ever said or thought something that could be construed as homophobic; it takes time and effort, after all, to unlearn the anti-gay propaganda taught through popular culture, through some churches, on school playgrounds, etc. But you have to be willing to unlearn it. And when you say something out of a misguided, but not malicious ignorance, understand where the anger comes from; understand that the people responding to you have heard the same shit hurled at them before--have likely had the same attitudes and ideas used to marginalize them individually or as a group; understand that maybe what you've said is damaging in a way that you weren't aware of; recognize that we can create damage even when we don't mean to, and then take responsibility to fix that damage.

Yeah, it requires humility and effort. Yeah, it'll be worth it.

Just my .02

:kick:
k/r

[dsc]

47. I probably have built fewer bridges and lobbed more bombs

as of late. I am not proud of that fact but I have to admit it is easy to get caught up in the emotion of a moment. It is also easy to get fed up with people constantly thinking that their priviledge doesn't exist and we are whinny crybabies.

[lumberjack_jeff]

52. Thanks for helping to establish a constructive discussion.

I strongly agree that encouraging straights to listen and empathize is a primary path to progress. I strongly disagree with those who think that ridicule, bias and stereotyping is an effective way to do it.

Thanks again.

[election_2004]

58. As a gay male....

...I have no problem with discussing these issues with heterosexuals constructively, even if some heterosexuals admit that they, as individuals, don't yet fully understand homosexual perspectives. As long as they're willing to try to understand, I am more than willing to share my own "queer" experiences.

What I do have a problem with is the partisans who have the audacity to tell me:
"You *must* support EVERY Democratic candidate against EVERY other candidate in EVERY electoral situation...because you have no other place to go, you ungrateful queer!" (okay, I'm paraphrasing that last part, but you get the idea...)

[LWolf]

72. I feel the same way about

the partisans who say the same thing to me. Just substitute "queer" with:

woman
teacher
liberal
leftie

:shrug:

That's vicious partisan propaganda that can be used with any group of people disenfranchised by the status quo.

:hug:

[election_2004]

73. Definitely

The partisans seem to be under the delusion that bullying will endear themselves to those who disagree with them.

[Greyhound]

62. Seems spot on to me.

I think all of us that have been discriminated against because of not fitting into the mold that is prepared for us have that in common with one another and if we could just come together in an understanding and tolerance of that, you know what? We'd be the majority.

[NoSheep]

63. You sell some of us short...

"you're never going to fully understand the depth of the estrangement from the world that gay children and gay adolescents feel every day of their lives. You will never understand living your entire childhood on the outside looking in at a Norman Rockwell painting of a happy hetero family and wondering why you were made differently."

There are many of us who have experienced being on the outside. Being gay is not the only criteria for feeling left out of "society". While I appreciate your effort here, your words clearly are not acknowledging the kinship that all minorities can and do feel with those who are homosexual.

I love your effort, but your words need work.

[omega minimo]

64. "woman is the nigger of the world"

soon as ya'll figger out what's really goin on all ya'll can get started on fixin it

[Deja Q]

67. Does it matter what one person says?

Some will disagree and vocally state as much. If there is a reasoned debate, that's great. (Unfortunately, from personal experience, DU hasn't had that in quite a long time on this issue and it's not all gay vs straight... (I'm bi, if you care to know and I'm not going to dig up long-past arguments on this topic. People can keep their misperceptions, but then whine why I refuse to support their cause. But that was from months ago and NOT related to anything recent (that snickers bar fluff commercial, right?).))

Others who can't relate will say "You won't ever understand so why bother trying?"

And my favorite is the type of person who will go out of their way to find non-existent menace and then try to make it real. :eyes:

I wouldn't call it 'tolerance' toward heterosexuals. I'd more often call it "indulging their curiosity". And indulging curiosity can be a dangerous thing around here, I've observed - that's why if somebody asks a question or says even one syllable that may dip into this issue, the guns get whipped out and the bloodbath begins.

And society is fucked up.

And we're all part of society so we all have our part to play.

And when more people honestly debate than pissing on a person who dares question any norm, things may get better.

[Puglover]

68. I'd be interested to see

any examples you might have of people "whining" because you "don't support their cause".What I see is people calling you on the fact that your posts are all over the map and you don't like it.

[Deja Q]

69. It works both ways...

But I won't discount your post of me either.

The difference is, consider the whole story. Not just cherrypicked chapters.

And, yes, my posts tend to be all over the map. But then, I'm more inclined to put more weight behind some of them over others... Also, my made my piece on that a long time ago.

I remember what I said and even if one is GLBT, to criticize what the 'mainstream' GLBT folks do is suicide. Not to mention other factors of which they have little knowledge and wouldn't care about because they seem to think that the GLBT community is as much a utopia as anything else magically conjured up.

Reality is a many splintered thing and we'd all be better off remembering that. Me too, don't get any romantic ideas that "I'm better" or any other garbage like that. The fact is, they like to think some things are incontrovertibly acceptable - and can't handle criticism or questions either. It's wrong when I show it but it's okay when they show it. Sod that.)


(and just in case, sometimes some things don't have an ulterior motive. We humans tend to find menace in shadows when there may be none too.)

[treestar]

70. Nice post

I think it is possible for straights to understand, too. I never agree with that concept ever, that people who haven't experienced something can "never understand" - that's too hopeless for me. I can have empathy for people in positions I would never be in, and can relate my experience to others who will never be in the same position I am in. It's that we have to keep trying and not give up because someone doesn't get it immediately.

:toast:

[LWolf]

71. I don't really know

about the DU divide you are referring to; I haven't checked in to threads that argue about it.

I found the snickers thing totally offensive, period. I don't need to justify my offense to anyone who disagrees.

The gay/straight divide is real out in the real, non-cyber world, and it wrings my heart.

I once wondered if my oldest son was gay. We have an open enough relationship that, when I felt like I'd found a way to ask without being intrusive, I finally did. He denied, and gave me a hug, and scolded me for worrying about him. He told me to worry about * and * and * instead, young men he'd grown up with who ARE gay. I was relieved for his sake. Not because there is anything wrong with being gay, or because I would love him less or think less of him. Because he's my son, I love him, and I don't want to see him hurt by the world any more than he already has been.

As a middle school teacher, I see young people wrestling with this all the time. We're in a rural, conservative xtian community where no one in their right mind would come "out." At least, not while they're living at home. I see and hear subtle, veiled derision about homosexuality, although no labels are ever used, every day on the playground. I see young women who, while they participate in this, also are so "close" to each other that we almost have to censor their expressions of "friendship." I see a lot of confusion about sexual identity, and a need for young men to firmly establish themselves as "straight."

Exploration of sexual identity doesn't happen in a vacuum. All of this is not happening without fear. While we may be moving forward, the world is still not a "safe" place where gay people can expect to walk with the same level of safety, respect, and opportunity as straight people.

Anyone who thinks this situation makes good fodder for jokes is not helping the situation, to say the least. I'd like to see straight people who are NOT homophobic refrain from feeding cultural bias. I'm straight, and I'm trying to be conscious. My gay friends are welcome to help me along when I'm not "getting" it.