Problem with my new American neighbor.

[EvilAL]

About 6 months ago we had a new family move in up the street. The woman was born Canadian and moved to the USA when she was very young. The man was born and raised in the mid-western United States in varying States and towns. They moved here because she wanted to get back in touch with her roots.
They have 2 kids and one is about my daughters age so they play together and we got to know the parents pretty good. He comes over for parties and just to hang out and lends a helping hand without being asked for anything in return.
I'm not a very political person, I do check out DU daily and have for the last 3 years or so and waited about a year to register and post. I check the site mostly for news and to keep in step with the world because it is a very good source for information. One night about a week ago he was over and we ended up starting up a conversation about the war in Iraq and other American policies.
He seemed like such a down-to-earth guy but when the talk turned to politics he turned out to be a fuckin whackjob.
He's a total war-monger, even getting down and dirty by saying Canada pussied out by not going to Iraq to help the USA in their war on terror. Mind you, there were several beers drank during the course of the evening. It got pretty heated and could have came to blows had there not been another person there to stop it from escalating.
The argument lasted for about a half hour and lingered on a few topics of which we were totally in disagreement.. Abu Ghraib, oil, Bush/cheney, healthcare and the list goes on. I ended up telling him that he should move back to the USA if he thinks this way, because not too many Canadians do. We live in a small town with beautiful landscape and forest, he said he loves it here and doesn't like the way the US is headed. I was dumbfounded.
I don't want this shit to effect our friendship, but now that the can has been opened I don't see how these types of conversations can be avoided.
I've dealt with it online and stuff before, I can hold my own in arguments. But I've never had to have to deal with it in person, with a friend that totally disagrees with me. I have never lived in the USA, been there a few times, but that hardly qualifies me to be on the same level as someone who lived there for 40 years and been through all the American political changes.

Any ideas on how I can put this crap to rest?

[SpiralHawk]

1. Put a cork in his kool aid supply

There is -- alas -- a sizeable segment of the population that likes being led, being told what to think and do. They are the target of the republicon homelander propaganda machine. Many of these types have swallowed the lies hook, line, and sinker -- even though they are getting screwed by the fatcat republicon profiteers at the top of the ship heap. They are the people who believe global climate change is a liberal hoax, because Rush "Drug Addict" Limbaugh told them so. Authoritatively.

Such types love the Authoritarian approach, even when it comes from Draft Dodging AWOL Chickenhawk bloviators. Then they themselves don't have to deal with reality, and they don't have to think for themselves, or take responsibility for their actions. Freepers is what they are.

They are Beyond Redemption. They are truly the Left Behind (left behind intelligence, facts, morality, and common sense).

[EvilAL]

2. haha, yeah

hopefully a few more months here will straighten him out.

I'm just screwed up about the whole thing.
Why would someone so pro-bush leave because of the way he's leading the country?

[annabanana]

3. he "doesn't like the way the US is headed."??

I wonder what he means by that?

[EvilAL]

4. Exactly.

It was a total contradiction. He pro-everything bush and the usa is doing, but doesn't like where it's taking them.. I was speechless.. how do you respond to that?

[Saturday]

5. IMO, the only thing you can do is....

agree to disagree and not talk about it anymore. The more you talk about issues the more it will escalate.

[EvilAL]

10. That's a good idea

I know I won't change his mind and vice versa.
I hope it all turns out for the best. I just needed to get it out there and get some opinions on how to handle this guy, since most of you have to do it on a daily basis. heh

[rug]

6. Canada. Love it or leave it.

[MadHound]

7. Living out in the rural Midwest, I deal with this all the time

I rarely get into an open, hostile debate with people, these are my neighbors, my friends, and frankly politics is but a small segment of our lives and our relations. Instead of getting up in the person's face, what I do instead is find areas of common agreement and go from there. His reaction may be sheer knee jerk on his part, but if you approach things gradually and non-confrontationally, you will probably have more success. The fact that he's not liking where the US is headed, and actually moved because of that means that he knows that there are some serious problems with the US. He may just not be wanting to fully admit it yet, either to himself or his new Canadian neighbors. Let over patriotism, homesickness, etc. could very well be driving these knee jerk, hostile reactions.

Let the matter drop for awhile, be a good friend and neighbor, give it time and I bet he comes around. And like I said, don't let politics overwhelm your life or relationships, it is but a small part of both.

[EvilAL]

11. ya

I haven't talked to him since. Not because of that, just been busy and he started a new job and all that.
Next time I talk to him I'll mention what happened and tell him we disagree and we should leave it at that. Hopefully he will agree. He is a real nice person, just that total political thing freaked me the fuck out.

[duhneece]

8. Ask him questions

Then, later, you can provide him with answers (get good documentation) that contradict what he believes to be true.
The more questions you ask, the more he will contradict himself.

[EvilAL]

12. I don't think

even contradicting himself will make any difference on his point of view. It never really does to people so adamant about their beliefs.
Asking more questions might make the whole thing worse.

[Breeze54]

9. Why worry about it?

At least stop drinking with him. ;)

He probably doesn't like that America is heading LEFT!

[EvilAL]

14. hahah

well I won't stop drinking with him. We drank many nights this summer and played guitar and stuff without a problem, just you know.. like day and night.. once it turned to politics.. yikes.. I ain't gonna ask him if he believes in Jesus, that's for sure.

[gratuitous]

16. Yeah, I'd lock up the Molson's when he's around

But it may be that you can have a positive effect on him, but only if you stay in communication. One heated, booze-fueled discussion doesn't necessarily mean you should write him off completely. Start from the points of agreement -- he likes the wide open country, the beautiful scenery where he lives. That hasn't been preserved by accident; it's there because of wise land stewardship and careful planning, rather than turning large tracts of land over to environment-despoiling extractive industries.

[JHB]

13. He's only been there 6 months...

...which is not nearly enough to decompress from a lifetime of jingo-intensive environment unless one is already primed to do so.

Hard to say how long it'll take to openly show, but living in an environment with a different perspective will have an effect on him, and most probably for the better.

[EvilAL]

15. I hope so.

I'm not looking for an apology or anything, I said some mean shit too. However, like you said it should have a positive effect on him. I don't think his wife has the same feelings as he does, but I'm not about to try and find out.

[marmar]

17. Maybe living in Canada will civilize him eventually. .....

Take him to Montreal or Toronto and tell him to start spewing his crap. He'll shut up quickly.

[EvilAL]

18. yes, but

he doesn't "spew his crap". Like he isn't all America this, bush that.. It was one conversation out of a thousand we had on varying topics.. We generally agree and are the same.. Love the outdoors and play guitar together and stuff. That's how come we hung around so much. Avoiding politics is the way to go on this one I believe.

[tom_paine]

19. There is no way to put it to rest. No way to get through to Bushies-Nazis

except by leaving or dying.

And THEN all it will do is to serve to make them feel as if they were right all along.

I apologize for the reality of what Amerika has done to itself, which is to divide more along lines of good and evil since the Nazis did the same thing in the 30s.

And like the Bushies, who believe themselves to be Virtue Personified, the Nazis felt the same way.

I am not saying you should terminate the relationship, particularly since your daughters are blameless in all of this and should not have to suffer. But you should never NEVER forget who and what your neighbor is. A Good German. A man who will let himself become a monster, if he gets enough permission from Authority to do so.

Please read my top link below, which is to a Canadian Professor's book relating two decades of scientific research into why what I am saying to you is not "over the top" at all, but a statement of deep psychological truth.

Many normally good and decent people have been reprogrammed into the kinder and gentler Bushie-Nazi mentality, and there is nothing you can do about it. How many "evil" Bushies (we're not talking baout the leaders here, but the dupes) are very good and nice people in their normal lives?

As many as there were Germans who would have been perfectly nice poeple had not THEIR Bushies reprogrammed them. Tens of thousands, millions even. This I now know, from both reading about the original Nazis and living the modern kinder and gentler version with Bushies.

Never forget who and what your neighbor is, a man NOT to be trusted with any of your secrets, a man who, if the North American Anschluss ever happens, will help hunt you down, you Liberal Traitor.

NEVER forget what this man is. That is all you can do. Treat him as someone who would sit back and watch you and your family die tortured and murdered, provided someone in authority told him you deserved it (now that you know what he is and he knows what you are...a Free Man, he will DOUBLY believe you have it coming, you Liberal Traitor).

Never share your secrets nor your real feelings nor ANYTHING that could get you into trouble with the authorities with him. Keep your daughter out of it all, but remember, anything you tell her could get back to the Bushie-Nazi.

I apologize for the reality of the situation. Having been raise in old, free Americas myself, I can scarcely believe I am saying these harsh things, but reality is what reality is, and all the wishful thinking won't change that.

[EvilAL]

20. I will read that link.

Right after this.
Some parts of your post may be true. Quite extreme though. I think he feels just as bad about it as I do. Maybe he's over in freeperville right now asking how to deal with me. heheh

[tom_paine]

21. I'll say what I always say about that: I very much hope I am wrong. .

And yes, it is quite extreme, although you'll notice I did not advocate taking actions against this man (which would be extreme) but merely keeping in mind who and what he is, now that you know.

And maybe, the friendship can be saved by agreeing not to discuss disputed topics.

Then it will be like that movie, "The Sound of Music". You will be pals with Rolfe. Especially since Canada is to Amerika, like Austria was to Germany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sound_of_Music(film)

Consider this: If indeed this man is off in Freeperville asking how to deal with you, then I can virtually guarantee you that my response, by far the most extreme of any here, would be equivalent to the most tepid response THERE.

Go ahead and mosey over if you don't believe me, it won't be hard to uncover and should take you no more than 15 minutes, possibly an hour at most, to confirm the kinder and gentler Nazi-like zeitgeist of the place.

Just always keep in mind what this man is because there may come a day (and I am not just speaking of the still relatively unlikely North American Anschluss) when you terribly regret having brough thim into your confidence from this day forth.

[EvilAL]

23. I downloaded it

and see that it is a 261 page pdf. So I'll have to get back to you with my review on that.
If he is off to freeperville I'm sure they are saying some fucked up shit on how to deal with me.

I'll heed your warning, but I'm not about to look at this guy as an enemy just yet.

[tom_paine]

24. Not necessarily an enemy, but as someone not be be trusted

Ever had a friend, even a good friend, who you KNEW couldn't keep a secret and so, while it never affected your friendship per se, you just always knew that to tell this person a secret would be to tell everyone?

What I am advocating is something more along those lines, doubly so since your children are friends.

Treating him like an enemy would mean being proactive, making sure never to see him or let your kids see their kids again. That and more...but I am not advocating anything like that.

I thought that book was only a hundred pages or so, even after reading it. Time flies when you have a good book to read, eh?

Yours is among the toughest situation because this man is your neighbor, and good relations with neighbors are to be desired.

But please understand, I am not saying that you should flip a switch and make this man from a friend to an enemy.

What I am saying is that you should be aware of who and what he is, and not to let your guard down to a person like that as you would a best friend. And to know that, now that he knows you are a Liberal Traitor, he almost certainly now feels that way about you. And yes, I also hope I turn out to be wrong about that, but I know my Bushies and my Authoritarian Followers, and while there is a chance, it is no more than a 30% chance, IMHO.

[EvilAL]

27. Alright man.

I hope you are wrong.
I don't see it effecting our friendship as of now. Hopefully he isn't like one of the people you describe and I will read about later. He may have the traits of one here and there, but that doesn't necessarily make him one.

[tom_paine]

31. That is true. Oh, and welcome to DU, EvilAL.

:toast:

I cannot disagree with what you say, not one bit.

See you 'round the boards!

:hi:

[EvilAL]

32. thanx

:toast:

Been around them. Don't post very much. That was my first topic I think.

[murray hill farm]

22. I never argue politics...and this is why?

When you debate politics with someone, u give them a chance to hone their skills in the art of speaking out and debating their point of view..which often is just a repeat of misinformation..and the more they repeat it..the more real it becomes to them...and the more it gets stuck in their head as the one and only reality. In other words, u end up not only reinforcing their misinformation, but help it to grow. also, the person...now more confident..and better at articulation the misinformation is more likely to carry the message in additional debates with others. This fellow left his country, he is new in a new country and he may have need to deal with some level of guilt for doing so and needs to, at some level, defend his homeland..his home country. He has taken this stand now reasons he may not even understand....and the best thing u can do is to let him have this now, agree to disagree and to not discuss politics for a while.
I was in Mexico when 9-11 occurred, staying at a motel in Cancun with my, at the time, significant other. All that day and into the evening, I was glued to the TV in the room. My SO, was down at the hotel bar, drinking with other tourists from all over the world. All that was discussed that day...as they drank and drank (ha) was what had happened in the usa. About 10pm, I went down and sat there, had a beer. there were about 20 people all sitting there..and this point cheering and making toasts to the USA. A man from Scotland, sitting next to me..a quiet guy in comparison to the others. He said to me.."u know, your country has such a history of abuse to other countries all around the world, that it is no surprise that it has come back now as it has today" Now, I know he was right about this..in the big picture, but I really hated him for saying it at that moment. I think that if I had been in the USA and someone from my own country had said that to me, I would have not had the same reaction, that same feeling of wanting to just smack his face..hahaha! I think your neighbor may well be having a similar reaction now. Give him some time on this and just agree to not discuss politics for now. He too, may be feeling bad about the argument. Give him time.

[EvilAL]

25. I know.

I was just as bad as him by, as he understood it, insulting the USA with certain views and he felt the need to defend it. I don't know if politics comes up in his conversations with others either. Maybe he likes to avoid it as well. I brought it up too.

[Javaman]

26. Political schizophrenia is rampant in america. I'm sorry you got

exposed to it. We aren't all like that. :)

Cheers.

by the way, I love Canada, my parents have had a cabin in Ontario for the last 40 years. :)

[EvilAL]

28. I know you aren't all like that.

What's the %age this week? Makin' any progress?
If they all move to Canada yer all set. lol

Cabin in Ontario.. Kickass!!

[The Stranger]

29. Get new friends.

[EvilAL]

33. Ok

maybe I shouldn't go to that rally he invited me to in Iowa.

[Beerboy]

30. When on your property, there's always this:

if he gets out-of-line,
If he's really the American he claims to be, he's got some stock in it and may say 'Thank You sir, may I have another!':7
edit to add Where's my manners? Welcome to DU!

[EvilAL]

34. hahah

tasers eh?

[treestar]

35. I think you may have run into a side alley in marital issues

They moved there because wife wants to get back to her roots. Maybe he resents it somehow and therefore has become a super-patriot who equates that with being all for the war on terra. Funny he is moving into a country with national health care, which presumably as a spouse of a Canadian he may eventually qualify for. Maybe you want to avoid political discussions with him and simply let him soak it up; in a few years he may change his tune. And it may all be personal anyway.

[EvilAL]

36. He likes it here.

He's said that many times. Said many good things about Canada and doesn't want to go back. He totally agreed to come here and never seemed resentful about it at all.

[provis99]

37. sounds similar to my brother's case

My brother moved from Mississippi to Canada partly for the job opportunity, and partly for the better healthcare. When he bought his house, his next door neighbor turned out to be an American married to a Canadian woman. After talking about America for a while, my brother mentioned why did he move to Canada. The neighbor said it was because Phoenix was filling up with Mexicans and blacks, and he wanted to get away from them. My brother can be hotheaded when confronted with idiots like this, but managed to hold his tongue, and hopes all the while that Canadians wouldn't judge Americans by this idiot.

But yes, they do exist.

[earth mom]

38. I'd keep my distance from the dude-he is not to be trusted at all.

That may sound extreme, but guys like that are so entrenched in their views that they never change because they refuse to open their minds.

He was probably raised that way and nothing anyone says to him is going to enlighten him or change his mind.

I've argued with enough freepers (on another site before I came to DU) to know what I'm talking about.