Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Pasadena Burglar Shooting Update - continued

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 02:14 PM
Original message
Pasadena Burglar Shooting Update - continued
Edited on Mon Nov-19-07 02:15 PM by cat_girl25
Previous thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2306628&mesg_id=2306628

The other thread had over 200 messages. I thought it would be okay to continue the conversation here.

Btw, I don't know if some of you know but Pasadena, Texas used to be the headquarters for the Klan some years ago. Not that it has anything to do with this case. I just thought I'd throw that out there.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=3880630
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. I went to high school there...
Pasadena High School 1962, South Houston 1963-'64. I'm so glad to be gone.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OlderButWiser Donating Member (389 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
2. The other thread is
quite large. Any mention as to whether what he did is still legal in TX? (using deadly force to protect property)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hangingon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Texas Penal Code s9.43 - Protection of a third person's property
Yes, to paraphrase... you authorized to use force or deadly force to protect land, or tangible, moveable property of a third person if he reasonably believes the third party has requested is protection.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MrCoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. the shooter says that he didn't know the people being robbed
on the 911 tape, he says that he doesn't know the neighbors in the house being robbed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hangingon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. Be interesting to hear what the Grand Jury does.
I think the guy has a better than even chance of a no bill. I don't know if this was day or night. If it was night, his chances go up.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
3. It is only a matter of time for this same event will be repeated here in Florida
...as similar deadly force laws have been opened up to Florida residents by former Governor Jeb Bush back in October 2005. Here was an opinion piece written in 2006 on the expansed Deadly Force Law:

<snip>
Kill or be killed Published August 13, 2006

Welcome to the new America, land of the fearful, land of the heavily armed. Under new laws being rolled out in 15 states, the right to self-defense is being expanded in ways that start to make the whole concept questionable at best. At worst, we are turning armed citizens into state-sanctioned murderers.

Let me first be clear: I believe in the right to self-defense. Not only would I do what was necessary to protect myself and my family from harm, that right has existed in law for a long time.

However, the expansion of the right of self-defense in 15 states, according to a recent New York Times article, is greatly disturbing. The Times takes Florida as its example, where the new law allows the use of deadly force against any intruder who enters someone’s home or vehicle. It also removed the stipulation that persons attacked in public places have the obligation to flee or otherwise attempt to remove themselves from the situation before resorting to violent force.

Now, I’m not defending illegal entry, but I do believe there is a valid distinction to be made here. The new Florida law does not even require that the homeowner be threatened or in danger. The simple fact of trespassing, then, allows the home or property owner to take the violator’s life. Moreover, since this law applies in public as well, any confrontation can progress to the use of deadly force.

The wording of the actual Florida law, in fact, defines any illegal and forcible entry into a home or vehicle as a direct threat of violence to those in the home. In other words, even if a burglar is unarmed and has no intention of hurting anyone, the homeowner can gun him down and face no repercussions, either in criminal or in civil courts (since the new law also bars civil action like a wrongful death suit).

Was the burglar breaking the law? Absolutely, and he should go to jail for it. But why is the homeowner allowed to kill him, when the state is not? After all, we don’t sanction the death penalty for burglary, and any law that did would surely be considered cruel and unusual. Again, the Florida law creates the presumption that any burglar intends violent harm to the residents of a home or vehicle. There is no need for the homeowner to prove anything.

Of course, there is no way to know what will happen until the new law is tested; police can still investigate any killing they suspect to be illegal, and the law does make some good exceptions for legal residents of the home, while stipulating that anyone engaged in illegal activity in the home is not protected by the statute. My fear, however, is that the siege mentality of this law will lead to tragic mistakes.

Florida is, in effect, telling its citizens to shoot first and ask questions later. Even if it remains illegal for me to shoot my son as he sneaks into the house after a drunken night out, that will be little comfort once he’s dead. By removing the requirement that the homeowner actually be threatened by the intruder, the new law makes such mistakes much more likely. It removed any responsibility from the homeowner to know just who he or she is shooting.

On the open street, the situation becomes even more dangerous. Is that suspicious-looking man reaching for a weapon? Under the old law, it would be best if I crossed the street or otherwise sought shelter. Now, I can simply pull my gun and shoot the man; there’s a reasonable chance my actions will not land me in jail, and as for the dead man, well, why’d he have to look so damned suspicious anyway?

Finally, as an editorial at the Findlaw website pointed out, this new law raises property to a higher value than life. If a man approaches me with a weapon and demands my money, I give him the money. Hopelessly naïve? Most robberies end there. Now, to protect my money, I have the right to shoot the robber. We should not have the right to kill to protect our property.

What bothers me most about this is the sense of immunity associated with this new law. Each time a police officer even discharges a weapon outside the firing range—even if no one is hit by a single bullet—there is an investigation into the circumstances surrounding the incident. I see no reason why it should be any different for citizens on the street, who have none of the training of law enforcement officers, who may, in fact, lack any training in the use of their weapon at all.

Laws similar to the one now in effect in Florida are being considered here in Pennsylvania. The truth is that we already have the right to defend ourselves from violent criminals. These new laws add nothing but uncertainty and risk, along with the fear that any tick or insignificant gesture might be construed as a threat to be met with deadly force. We have police for a reason; these laws go too far.

<link> http://www.electronglutton.com/opinion/20060813.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
piedmont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Well, that article is over a year old. Where's the Florida blood-bath? nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BadgerLaw2010 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. All these laws are probably unconstitutional given "unreasonable seizure" law.
Edited on Mon Nov-19-07 06:15 PM by BadgerLaw2010
As written, this standard gives civilians a lower threshold for using force to stop a suspect than it gives to police. It's explicitly unconstitutional to use deadly force to stop non-violent felony suspects, for example. Interestingly enough, one of the primary cases dealt with burglary suspects. Tennessee v. Garner,where a fat cop shooting a young and unarmed burglary suspect who had jumped a fence to "stop him from getting away" was ruled unreasonable.

The fat, poor physical shape cop was the cop's excuse, actually. That's not abuse from me. Shooting the faster, younger guy in the back was convenient.

A police officer cannot shoot suspected theives, nor can he start shooting them when they run away and don't surrender. If a cop had done what the guy in Pasadena did, he'd be toast. If a cop did that anywhere, he'd be toast. The Supreme Court trumps state law on this subject, because constitutional rights are directly at issue.

Use of deadly force to defend the property of OTHERS seems to be in direct contradiction to this. It sounds like this guy in Pasadena was outside even Texas law, but that Texas law would allow for shooting someone you see stealing a TV under any circumstances at all is probably unreasonable.

If the police can't use deadly force to seize someone committing property crime, why should a private citizen, who has a far higher liability for false arrest and usually shitty or no training in legal use of deadly force, be able to?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
riverdeep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
4. I remember when I was in college,
I got quite drunk at a party and started wandering around the small town. I went into someone's garage (the big door was open) thinking there was another party being held there. This must have been about midnight. I suppose I was making some noise and stumbling around because a woman came out and said "Can I help you?" I told her I'm looking for the party. She laughed and said there's no party here. Saying 'sorry about that' I wandered on my way.

Looking back on it, I guess I could've been killed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Wow! You were lucky.
That woman definitely could have shot you and asked questions later.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SharkSquid Donating Member (659 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Whew I miss the old days when I had to turn my back on
the violent criminal and run before I used deadly force..ahhh memories.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
11 Bravo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Was riverdeep a violent criminal?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SharkSquid Donating Member (659 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. And if that stupid person had shot riverdeep
they would have been prosecuted because he did not forcibly gain entry to the home as the law requires, he walked into an open garage so the assumption of violent intention does not exist under law.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
10. He admitted to the dispatcher he was going to go and kill them
not scare them off, KILL them. He could have let the police do their job but, no, he had to be judge, jury and executioner.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
13. He's a ninja in his caddy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed May 01st 2024, 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC