I don't understand the right-wing homosexuals in the US gov./religions

[RainDog]

I've been watching some archival footage and an old Frontline doc on J. Edgar Hoover via YouTube.

The Frontline doc segments are here:
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and just find it remarkable that Hoover was blackmailed and was blackmailing people as a way to fix U.S. govt policy, apparently. The mafia had a picture of Hoover giving a blow job to his friend, Tolson (not to mention his earlier relationship with Roy Cohn... another one... dying of aids but unable to admit it??) -- and this is the same J. Edgar Hoover who was good buddies with Murchison, but I won't even go into all that...

anyway, this old doc also reminded me of David Ferrie, Clay Shaw and Perry Russo and their ultra right wing, fascist, really, hatred of democracy instead of their militarism...combined with their penchant for sado-masochism... and then their association with Oswald, starting with Ferrie's asso. when Oswald was a teenager, on to 1963, and Marina Oswald's complaints about her husband because he had no interest in sex with her (he obviously did have sex with her on some occasions b/c they had two kids, just like church guy...) But all of these things together make me wonder about Oswald's sexual orientation...

And now all the republicans who have been outed who, it seems, willfully refuse to acknowledge their homosexuality (Craig, the church guy...what's his name?) or who live double lives (Foley, the church guy, Haggard, McHenry, I assume... and others--)

Maybe it's just my prejudice that I would assume homosexual men would not be right-wingers, that they would have some compassion for those outside the dominant power. Maybe I don't understand how these men would be able to deny their own existence to themselves and somehow label themselves as weak or evil, but not homosexual, and therefore worthy of their own hatred... On the other hand, Clay Shaw seems to have been a person who liked his double life. Which brings me to another issue... wondering if this life situation didn't also draw them into work with secret orgs and spy orgs. as a way to further generate the "two lives" lived because of their sexual preferences. Or maybe they constructed a fable about men like themselves, a "platonic" vision of reality, ala Leo Strauss, in which others should be controlled but they may do as they please...

Does anyone here know how this sort of situation is explained or understood? I knew of one boy, when I was growing up, who was gay, but whose parents were so outraged by this (and they were religious fundies) that they kept trying to "cure" him of this and moved when the cures didn't "take." But that was decades ago, not now.

anyone have any insights?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. Self loathing

for what they are--often this type of person is meanest towards other like them. It's part defense mechanism, part projection--they really don't like themselves, and project their hatred on others.

[RainDog]

2. but do they know what they're doing?

do they recognize they are engaged in self-hatred?

...I mean, J. Edgar Hoover wearing a dress and wig and calling himself "Mary" with a woman he knew... as tho she wouldn't recognize him? That's some self-deception...

[teenagebambam]

7. From a gay man....

...who came out relatively late (age 26)....and, bear in mind, I can only speak to my own experience...

Yes, it's a little bit of self-loathing, also a little bit of fear of others' reactions, but mostly just a reluctance to admit to YOURSELF that "yes, this is who I am".
When I was growing up (mid-70's thru early 80's) in small-town Ohio, all I knew of gay people was what I saw on the news...so my choices were overly-flamboyant, effeminate men, drag queens, or leather daddies (because the only time you saw gay people on tv was once a year when the news would show footage of gay pride parades). I knew, in my soul, that I didn't match any of those images, and because I had no "normal" role models (Please don't flame me, I don't mean to say that the range of gay experience is not "normal", I just mean to say that I didn't see any gay role models who, you know, went to work, paid their taxes, cleaned the house, etc. etc....that I KNEW of) So, because I didn't match the images I saw, I had two options....either be self-aware and secure enough to claim my own identity, or be vehemently opposed to the idea that I wasn't gay, even though I was attracted to men. Self-security is a very hard thing for a teenager, so I was left with vehement denial, to the world as well as to MYSELF, that I was gay. I justified my attractions to men as poor body image, or "waiting for the right girl to come along", etc. I only came out when I was in my twenties, and performing in a lot of community theater, and people in THAT world just ASSUMED I was gay, and didn't seem to care one way or the other, and that led me to self acceptance. Had I not had THAT experience, I could easily see me still carrying on, leading a double life, fooling myself as well as the world (but probably mostly myself).

[RainDog]

9. why on earth would you get flamed??

I understand what you mean. Thanks for sharing. I cannot imagine how difficult it must be to accept yourself when hatred is exhibited as a "normal" reaction toward gays.

I worried that maybe I would get slammed for writing this post, as tho it is only homosexual right wingers who lie to themselves... but that's not what I mean at all. I just watched the doc segments and thought of Shaw, Ferrie, etc. and couldn't help but notice how rabid the guys were about communist infiltrators. of course, Joe McCarthy has the same obsession.

In the context of history, all of the men noted here would have lived in a time when homosexual feelings were considered to be some sort of psychological impairment. I guess I just don't understand how intelligent people could continue to accept the conventional wisdom about themselves, especially considering people like Oscar Wilde, or Plato, or Walt Whitman. But as you note, context is powerful and so is acceptance.

[Blashyrkh]

3. I don't understand right-wing people full stop.

[RainDog]

6. well yeah

but for me it's like a female who believes fundie church doctrine that she is lesser than a man -- under submission to her husband is the correct phrase, but that means she is not an independent agent.

if a female is kept within that sort of frame of thought, she's far more easily controlled.

but with these guys, it's obvious they weren't cloistered, etc. it's hard to get beyond negative things that were drilled into your head as a kid, I suppose, but Ferrie and Shaw were extremely intelligent men who knew how to think about what they think about. but maybe they never did think about it.

[Bolo Boffin]

4. Selfishness is a common human failing, no matter your sexual orientation n/t

[Sarah Ibarruri]

5. I didn't use to understand it till I realized....

.. that some gays want so desperately to be accepted and pass for straight, that they won't just live straight, they'll live out a straight right wing extremist, gay-hater's life so no one will ever accuse them of being gay. Some will go out of their way to hurt other gays. That happens in all groups that are discriminated against. I don't know why I just never realized it also happened among gays, but it does.

[Acadia Blue]

8. They think their money makes them safe. They value money above

all.

[SharkSquid]

10. Is it really all self loathing

The Log Cabin Republicans seem pretty happy about who they are, they are not exactly ultra-right wing eithwr, but still.

[RainDog]

13. Log Cabin Republicans aren't the same

as the guys I mentioned. I can fully understand, even if I don't share the belief, that certain economic views would lead some people to hold MODERATE republican positions. That's how I see the LCR- moderate republicans. Andrew Sullivan is capable of admitting that Bush is a total disaster. He seems to be happy with who he is... the LCR's don't agree with the extremists in their party. I guess they made peace with the issue for a while because the right wingers/fundies really didn't have much power. but since Bush took office, all that has changed, and always to the detriment of this nation.

Surely the LCRs know they cannot vote for another republican this round. If so, the fundie wing will continue their hate campaigns and apocalytpic self-fulfilling prophecies.

[NutmegYankee]

11. As far as the having children part goes:

Some people are bi-sexual. I remember a buddies girl friend who was Bi-sexual, and would occasionally remind him that she had been with more women than him. Now that is one hell of an arrow to pull out in an argument.

[Democrats_win]

12. Difficulties in life have different effects on different people.

An out gay person may have had to become tougher and more bitter in order to survive and thus became more of a "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" type.

Any person might, one day, recognize that his difficulties were not unique to him or even to gays in particular. He might recognize that had people shown him more compassion, then his experiences would have been better. Thus he adopts the golden rule of doing unto others as he would have them done unto himself. And, he hopes that his tormentors might one day also recognize the errors of their ways.

Ironically, right wing religion doesn't seem to practice the golden rule, yet they seem to think they're good people. So is it any wonder that someone, gay or straight, on the right would take a while--if ever-- to understand? They DEMAND that gays change their ways, while refusing to look at their own faults. Of course their religion says something about that too. (paraphrasing: Take the log out of your own eye before complaining about the tiny spec in your neighbor's eye.)

[treestar]

14. I read a book on right wing women once

The interviewer pointed out to some of the female leaders of right wing movements that they themselves were not staying at home obeying their husbands and taking care of the children and cooking, etc., as they were lecturing other women they should do. For example, Phyllis Schafly. She became a lawyer, wrote books, started a political group, all to tell women they should live in a way she was not following for herself.

The writer concluded that such women really believed they were special, and that ordinary women should limit themselves, but that special, exceptional women like themselves were of course exempted.

I think you have something there in that idea - they maybe think that ordinary people should not have access to a type of life they cnosider set aside for special and exceptional people like themselves. The little people have to be kept in order and controlled and don't have that option - they should get married to a member of the opposite sex and make babies to be later used as cannon fodder.

[SharkSquid]

15. However alot of women to not follow or preach that

On the right, Rice, Libby Dole and Kay Hutchinson come to mind.


Wonder what their deal is?

[treestar]

22. Not sure, could be similar - they figure they are exceptional

and don't need any assistance - so they still think they are exceptional and don't think the fact that other women aren't doing as well as they in proportion means there is any discrimination against women, but just that fewer women than men are such geniuses and they perceive themselves to be and that they are those rare specimens.

[Karenina]

16. A new DSM listing?

:shrug:

[upi402]

17. Dysfunctional folks and religious folks who think fantasy is reality

seem to be drawn to conservatism. Well, you'd need to be accustom to suspending rational thought to be either Christian or conservative. Once there, both would feed into each other.

[SoCalDem]

18. What's NOT to understand?

They hate their "weakness", and punish themselves by deliberately seeking out people who might "Kill" them if they ever "found out" or they try to "cure" themselves by surrounding themselves with people whom they will try to emulate.

Either move is toxic, and I'm guessing it never "works"..

Why do people pull their own hair out, or cut themselves or starve themselves? Just because they are gay, does not mean that they may not be mentally ill.. That's the ONLY reason I can see why a gay person would associate with creeps like right wing republicans.. The gay-ness is not the illness.. the right wing republican-ness IS..

[Karenina]

20. I call it RoyCohnism.

[RainDog]

19. btw, I really recommend those YouTube vids

I didn't see this one whenever it was first broadcast, and I am amazed at the number of people (Mondale, Kennedy's secretary) who were willing to talk about what Hoover was doing. Of course, they didn't talk about it until he was dead.

But his entire life gives more meaning to the necessity of FISA protections... not that the gop has not been spying on anyone they want - and I'd bet they've tried to dig up as much dirt on dems as possible.

[applegrove]

21. Repuke creeps could be of any creed. These are just the most hipocritical

examples so they stand out.