Pasadena Burglar Shooting Update: The Widow Responds

[John Kerry VonErich]

Widow of suspected burglar speaks about her husband's death

By Laura Whitley
(11/16/07 - KTRK/HOUSTON) - You've heard the 911 call as a Pasadena man used deadly force to protect his neighbor's property. Now, the part of the story you haven't heard. The wife of one of the two men shot reacts to the killing that took away her young child's father.

Two deaths caught on tape, many more lives wrecked. We're hearing the human side to the tragedy that's been playing out for days.

When tiny Diego Ortiz, Jr., took the picture you see to the right with his father, he was just a days old. The baby is now eight months. He will never take another picture with his dad again. Diego Ortiz, Sr., died this week.

"I wish that he could have made it," sobbed Ortiz's widow, Diamond Morgan.

He was one of two suspected burglars a Pasadena man killed. After the break in, a neighbor, Joe Horn, stopped Ortiz and Miguel de Jesus with his shotgun. The incident was recorded during a 911 call.

The chilling tape leaves Morgan stunned.

"It's horrible," said Morgan. "He was so eager, so eager to shoot."

Horn's lawyer says that couldn't be further from the truth.

"When he was in my office yesterday, he was crying uncontrollably," said Horn's attorney, Tom Lambright.

Lambright says devastated doesn't even begin to describe the 61-year-old, that he only fired because he feared for his life. When Horn went outside, Lambright says, the men were on Horn's property about 15 feet from his front door.

"He didn't know what they were gonna do, but he was petrified at that point," said Lambright.

"If you were afraid for your life, then why the hell did you come outside," said Morgan.

Morgan admits Ortiz was doing something wrong, but she believes the punishment Ortiz, she and his young son received hardly outweighs the crime.

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=local&id=5766455

[cgrindley]

1. She has quite the nerve (nt)

[fed-up]

12. listen to the 911 tape-"I ain't gonna let em go...You wanna make a bet, I'm gonna kill em"

The shooter is batshit insane

He told the dispatcher from inside his house that he planned on killing them, then went outside and did just that.

Premeditated murder

Jesus f*cking christ


last time I checked burglary is not punishable by death...

[Strelnikov_]

45. Yep

Did you listen to right before the shots. No verbal confrontation, no challenge to stop. Just muffled noise, then the shooter "You're Dead", followed by two shots, followed by a third shot after a pause.

[TommyO]

55. The laws have been changed in this country since September the first

This asshat needs to be convicted of murder, period!

[Guaranteed]

119. Yup. He's a murderer. nt

[LisaL]

396. Burglary is not punishable by death, that's true.

But if they were breaking into this guy's garage, or shed, it appears under Texas law he would have a legal right to shoot them.
Because it was his neighbors property, that's where it gets iffy.

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. Yes how dare she!

A man took the law into his own hands and murdered her husband. If he had been caught, the death penalty wouldn't even have been a consideration. But because this shooter was a paranoid old fool, who is not willing to let law enforcement do its job, her husband is dead. But how dare she complain!!

[Alexander]

59. Those who "let law enforcement do its job" often wind up dead.

Cops can't be at your house in milliseconds. What you do in the time it takes them to get to your location can either save your life or end it.

I'm glad you're so trusting of cops. Maybe you'll change your tune when you are beaten and mugged and you find they don't give a rat's ass about helping you out.

[treestar]

60. In this case, it clearly wasn't necessary

The man could have stayed in his house as the 911 operator said.

He just wanted a chance to kill some people, he got it and he took it. He's more dangerous to society than they would ever have been.

[Alexander]

65. Yes. But to assume the cops will come and save you is naive.

They won't. They usually show up just in time to bust out the body bags.

[MiniMe]

78. They were next door, and the man was not in any danger

He called 911 and was watching out his window. He had to step out of the house to shoot these people. You might be correct in some instances, but not in this one.

[Dorian Gray]

90. Yes, it is naive...

but he still should have waited in his house. If they tried to break in there, then shoot them. Not outside, when he could have protected himself.

[Hoof Hearted]

333. Wow. So you knew both of the burglars personally did you? Have a crystal ball too?

Otherwise the statement "He's more dangerous to society than they would ever have been." is purely pulled out of your ass and should be returned asap.

Just like so many things in life, including criminal cases, there are some gray areas here.

Horn was undoubtedly trigger happy and could very well pay a steep price for his big balls Texas insanity but I've seen no indication of any prior trouble with the law or even complaints regarding previous behavior. What does Mr. Horn have in his favor? He's in TEXAS. They don't call themselves a whole other country for nothing. Things are not just bigger in Texas, they're very, very different.

On the other hand, De Jesus was on PAROLE when he died and it's at least a fair bet Mr. Ortiz was not a pillar of the community either since most people engaged in home invasion and burglary at age 30 are not at their first rodeo.

So who's more dangerous to society in general, a single incident vigilante who may have been acting within the law (if his neighbor asked him to watch the house) or two burglars, at least one of which was a career criminal?

[proud2BlibKansan]

62. Me ? Trusting of cops??

:rofl:

[Alexander]

66. Post #38 indicates that you are.

Laugh at yourself all you want. I've already started for you.

[proud2BlibKansan]

80. Dude, learn to read.

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

85. No

[SharkSquid]

145. I trust cops

Not in Jacksonville, but in my hometown they are pretty good (mostly because my dad was one of them)

[wicket]

159. Welcome to DU Sharky!

:hi: :toast:

[SharkSquid]

161. Thanks

Working toward 1000 :)

[wicket]

164. You'll be surprised how fast that can happen

This place is quite addicting :D

[Book Lover]

233. Yeah, how dare she be crazed with grief!

You soulless SOB.

[thepurpose]

2. This entire thing could have been avoided if those two had not tried to steal

stuff that belonged to someone else. How was the guy who shot supposed to know the family history of criminals and what difference does it make?

[FredScuttle]

20. Don't we have a justice system in place for that?

n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. Listen to the tape

Why didn't this shooter just stay in his house? If he had been sitting there and they came in, he would have been perfectly justified in shooting them. But he told the dispatcher he was going to kill them and he did. It's vigilante justice.

[dysfunctional press]

285. the tape DOESN'T MATTER.

these guys KNEW that they were taking a BIG chance by BREAKING THE LAW. burglars DO get killed. it's ILLEGAL.

[Hoof Hearted]

334. THANK YOU, Q.A.! These guys KNEW they could get killed, and they did

How I feel about Mr. Horns actions or what he said on the tape is in no way relevant to the fact that these two guys were killed as the direct result of their own choices and actions.

[IdaBriggs]

387. I'm with you. Dead burglars are not high on my sympathy list.

Don't want to get shot stealing from other people? Simple solution: Don't Break Into Other People's Houses. This is a no brainer. Of course his widow is upset -- she got herself pregnant by a Huge Loser, and now he's dead. On a positive note, her son will receive money from the taxypayers since daddy is dead, and it sounds like daddy was financially unable to take care of him, so "he gave his life for his child's well being." Happy ending for everyone.

[JeanGrey]

390. I have two sons. I started telling them when they were about 11 or

so, don't ever steal or take anything from someone's home, or get caught doing it with someone else. You could get killed, someone might shoot you. That's how it is.

[Mutineer]

202. EXACTLY!

These guys weren't there to make a social call. They were there to steal. It's a dangerous line of work with risks. Perhaps in retrospect, flipping burgers at Burger King might have been a safer, though not as profitable (or deadly) choice for them. I realize the majority here at DU are anti-cop but I had no idea until now that we're apparently also pro-criminal.

Sorry, don't ask me to feel sorry for them. I've got bigger worries than a thief who fell prey to one of the hazards of their line of work.

Yeah, the citizen should have stayed in his house til the Police arrived but he had the right to defend his property and as long as guns are legal in this country, well, shit happens.

[BoneDaddy]

295. and if I saw thugs going into my neighbors home

with the intent to do "Whatever", I may have done the same thing. I am not justifying it, I am saying that many on DU are sympathizing with those who were burgling someone else. The Monday night quarterbacking from the idiots on this board is amazing

[Paladin]

300. No, What's Amazing Is Everyone Like You On This Thread,...

....glorifying these needless deaths and lionizing this crazed old vigilante for what he did.

Like I've said before, I think this unfortunate incident just amounts to sick wish fulfillment for those who believe that every situation is improved by the presence of a gun, and that the highest and best use of a gun is emptying it into another human being, regardless of actual threats, self defense factors, or anything remotely resembling prudent firearms usage. Because God Forbid that these burglars had been apprehended by law enforcement, put on trial, and received deservedly long prison sentences---hell, there's no fun in that, is there? If you think I'm exaggerating things, hold your noses and hang out in DU's Guns forum for a while.

In short, this is yet another thread which delivers superiority complexes to those of us who favor rigid gun control measures. Much obliged.....

[BoneDaddy]

303. spoken like a person

who only sees one side of the gun. Have you ever been on the other side of the barrel of life?

[Paladin]

319. "The Barrel Of Life." Jeez, That's Sadly Poetic....

I think you've revealed a lot more about yourself than you ever intended with that post, and it's anything but flattering. Don't feel bad, though---you've got a lot of ugly company on this thread.

God continue to grant you that sublime lack of self-awareness.....

[BoneDaddy]

320. It is ugly to want to protect yourself and those you love?

I am not saying this situation was the epitome of the best choices, but I understand it. I have been mugged, jumped, and held at knife point. I have fought 6 men who jumped me in NYC for no other reason than they were thugs looking for a fight and if I did not have the good actions of other who intervened while I was being kicked on the ground, I may not have made it.

When you are faced with a threatening situation you react. I have been a martial artist for about 20 years and there are no "rules" in a fight. I don't know if this person attacking me plans on killing me or coming back to kill me and I will not take that chance. I will take them out.

your naivete about life is staggeringly childish and your moral superiority is gagging.

[Paladin]

326. And You Don't See Any Meaningful Difference.....

....between your experiences and what this jerk in Texas did? The most you're willing to say is that it wasn't "the epitome of best choices"?

Feeling morally superior to you is absolutely unavoidable.....

[BoneDaddy]

351. No, what I am saying is that when people feel threatened

they may not make the best choices. I am not defending his actions as much as I am finding it ridiculous the people, like yourself, are defending the criminals.

As for your last comment, I think you are a coward, hiding behind your computer screen like you do.

[Paladin]

391. I Don't Know Why I'm Wasting Time With A Reply

First and foremost, I am not defending the burglars. As I have stated elsewhere, I truly wish they were now both in custody and facing trial, where a Pasadena,TX jury could give them suitably stiff prison sentences. You know---the way things should have been handled.

And as to your last point: I would be interested to know what alternatives you have in mind to "hiding behind computer screen." What other actions do you propose, in order for me to prove that I'm not a coward? I'd be careful of your reply if I were you; try to restrain yourself so the forum moderators don't get involved.....

[LeftishBrit]

392. But he was not threatened; that's the point

If someone attacked him, and he shot them, that would be one thing. But going out and shooting someone who is stealing from the neighbour's house, is not self-defence; in fact it puts him at greater risk than staying at home and calling the police. Thinking that it's OK to shoot someone just because they're doing something wrong is on a small scale the same sort of moral argument that, on a larger scale, is used to justify pre-emptive attacks on countries that are seen as 'the bad guys'.

Both for individuals and countries, killing in self-defence may be justified; pre-emptive killing of 'baddies' is not.

[Hoof Hearted]

336. "this. .thread. .delivers superiority complexes to those of us who favor rigid gun control measures

Please do explain.

What constitutionally viable criterion do you believe might have prevented this man with no criminal history from owning a shotgun?

While you're at it, this particular advocate of firearm regulation wonders how one translates a simple difference of opinion into a full-blown superiority complex, and then displays apparent pride in that superiority complex.

[Paladin]

393. If You're Really An Advocate Of Firearms Regulation (as I am)......

....and if you hang around gun-related threads long enough here at DU, I defy you not to develop a superiority complex, based on the posts of our opponents. If you want to condense the whole process, look over the threads down in the Gun Dungeon for a few days. "A simple difference of opinion" doesn't even begin to cover it.

Don't look for me in the Gungeon, though. I terminated my participation when the gun activists down there---after an ugly, non-stop trashing of John Kerry for months during the run-up to the election---fell virtually silent over Dick Cheney's putting a load of birdshot into a shooting companion's face. "A simple difference of opinion?" I think not.....

[Wiregrass Willie]

324. The shooter was only following the Golden Rule

"Do unto your neighbors burglar as you would have your neighbor do unto yours".

If he goes to trial I hope the judge will sentence him to life -- as my next door neighbor.

I'll buy him a new gun and a box of bullets. And every night just before I go to bed,
I'll carry over to him a pot of coffee and a sandwich.

[whoneedstickets]

330. Yep, fine instance of the Neighborhood Watch at work.

I should be so lucky when I'm away that my neighbor would look out for my property.

[Zorra]

357. True. They knew the risks when they decided to break into the house.

They stole, and they got shot for doing it.

Sad but true.

[Wcross]

3. Unfortunately death is always possible when you are a thief.

Right or wrong it is an occupational hazard. I am not passing judgement on the incident. Perhaps if Diego Ortiz didn't go to that neighborhood to steal he would be with his family now?

[1932]

35. Proportionality? Steal a loaf of bread and you get shot? Really? Armed robbery? Possibly.

If you're willing to kill to get things you don't own, you should be prepared to die. But if you're found looking around somebody's property, I don't think the neighbor with the gun should be your judge, jury and executioner.

[Wcross]

42. Didn't say it was right, I said it was a possibility.

That's what I LOVE about general discussion- people always try to twist words around and start an argument:party:

[1932]

44. Culture of stealing. Culture of killing.

I just didn't want to miss the chance to criticize both ends of the spectrum.

Apologies if you felt things were being twisted.

[Hoof Hearted]

337. They weren't "looking around". Jesus! It was a HOME INVASION AND ROBBERY.

They bet their lives they could get away with it and lost the bet. Anyone who breaks into a house to steal knows they could end up dead. They did.

Mr. Horn's actions are a separate issue.

[okasha]

388. WRONG!

It was breaking and entering and burglary/theft.

In Texas, the homeowner must be present in the house for an illegal entry to be charged as home invasion. Robbery also involves the direct confrontation of the victim by the robber. Depending on the value of the items taken, this looks like a run-of-the-mill second-degree felony, possibly pled down to third-degree at prosecution if the defendants cooperated.

[wtmusic]

227. No, death is always possible when you piss off armed idiots

whose only recourse to confrontation is to pull a trigger.

It's also possible when you attend Virginia Tech or Columbine. Another occupational hazard. :eyes:

[SharkSquid]

235. Thomas Jefferson was mistaken

Yeoman farmers must let the theives take their crops :)

[wtmusic]

238. So this man was justified shooting them in the back

Is that your point? By the way, it's "thief". You might as well learn how to spell it. Makes you look smarter.

[SharkSquid]

241. Well next your clear mastery of

the well-proven technique of the ad hominem attack, how could I even try...

[wtmusic]

242. You could just answer the question

Shooting them in the back was appropriate? Hmm?

[SharkSquid]

244. No shooting someone in the back is never appropriate

I would hope that that was clear before when I said that shooting someone running away was not appropriate.

hmmmmm? (whatever that is supposed to mean)

[Hangingon]

292. I didn't see it in the article.

Do we know he actually shot them in the back?

[SharkSquid]

309. It does not matter

To some people the assumption is always that the crazy guy with the gun shot them in the back.

[Hangingon]

323. True, but when it goes legal...

a frontal shot will play better with a grand jury. And the wife will undoubtly sue. A frontal and his criminal records will mitigate any jury award.

[SharkSquid]

4. You break in

You run the risk of getting shot by the occupant (or apprently his crazy neighbors)

As I said in another post, I was in this poosition with my hous a few days ago and I was prepared to put a bullet in the guy if he came at me or had a deadly weapon himself. I would have shot to kill.

Just like I avoid going into the "bad" part of Jax they should avoid breaking into a persons home.

[Benhurst]

5. They made the classic of setting their sights too low. If you commit petty

theft, you are facing hard time or death. Steal millions and at worst you face time at a federal country club. Steal a national election you are crowned president and Leader of the Free World.

[John Kerry VonErich]

6. Shhhhhh

SS might be watching.

:sarcasm:

[Blue_Tires]

201. spot-on

the irony is not lost on me that this happened in a suburb of the city of the former Enron's headquarters (and still home of most petro-dollar conglomerates)...I'd just as soon point the old man in THAT direction and tell him to fire at will....

[blogslut]

7. Listen to the 911 call

Horn was told repeatedly to stay in his house and wait for the police. He was repeatedly told not to shoot. Horn wanted to kill those guys. He did.

[Hoof Hearted]

338. 911 operators are not authority figures or custodians of the law

It's quite possible Mr. Horn was acting within the law. The burglars, at least one of whom was a career criminal, CLEARLY were not.

They knew they could get killed when they made the decision to invade a home and steal, and they were.

[LostinVA]

349. Not true, they often are

But, from your responses on here, you don't really give a damn about the truth, just lionizing a murderer who gives all responsible long gun owners a bad rap.

[John Kerry VonErich]

8. Here is my take

Judging from what I have read, I do believe that Horn was in the......................... wrong. But, few things I disagree with from some here I read in these Horn shooting threads. First, 911 dispatchers are not police officers, so there is no charge on that notion. Next, he wasn't hunting, he didn't go out, sneak to his neighbors with phone on shoulder to ear and a shotgun at hand, then blasted away. He said they were in his front yard. I do suspect he might have lured them into his front yard where he can "legally" kill them. May not be vocally, but made sure they saw him. Thus there was malice involved, and proof positively, strong intent. This was first degree murder with malice and is subject to a death penalty case.

[MadHound]

10. On your one point

It depends on the police department. Sometimes the 911 dispatchers are civilians, however they have been sworn into the police dept. That technically makes them police officers. Some are actual officers who are doing desk duty. Some are civilians who've simply been hired to do the job, with no other strings attached. It depends on the police dept.

That said, I think that it's a crime that a civilian, who despite his claims of fearing for his life, was in no real danger. Stay inside his house, get these guys descriptions and license plate number, and we wouldn't be having this discussion, and more than likely the perps would be in jail. As it is, it seems as though he wanted to play Rambo and bag himself a crook. Thus, he was functioning as judge, jury and executioner, and frankly I think he committed a crime. I hope that he is booked, sued, and that this prompts a hard look at these Castle Defense laws. These laws simply give license to vigilante justice, which is what happened here.

[alarimer]

16. They have that conversation on tape and it can be used as evidence

This was murder, nothing less. He needs to go to prison for 5 or 10 years for vigilantism. This is not self-defense; it was not his property. There is no justification whatsoever for his actions. HE is the fucking scumbag here and I hope prosecutors get this guy off the street before he does it again.

I cannot believe people here are defending him; he took the fucking law into his own hands and was judge, jury and executioner.

[LisaL]

18. The Castle Defense laws apply to your own property, not

to someone else' property.

[slackmaster]

22. In Texas it can extend to other peoples' property

Under certain circumstances.

[LisaL]

27. Methinks in this case they could charge the guy if they wanted to.

I don't think in this particular case the self-defense argument is flying very well, but then again, it's Texas.

[slackmaster]

28. I've read the code over and over, and am still undecided

His actions, taken by themselves, would probably not convict him. But some of the things he said on that 911 recording may put his state of mind out of bounds.

In very general terms, intending to kill as opposed to STOPPING a person's unlawful behavior can make the difference between justifiable use of deadly force, and murder.

[aikoaiko]

46. I agree with you. nt

[Hangingon]

293. In the tape I heard him say that he would not let them get away...

with robbery. He also said that he would go out armed. I Texas the panel code allows a person to protect the proerty of a third party with force or deadly force. On the tape he said he would apply deadly force if necessary. They entered his yard after being warned to stop. I didn't see where he shot anyone in the back. Close, but I would vote for a no bill if I was on the grand jury. I am sure he will be subject to a civil suit. The crimanal background of the vic will come into play there.

[slackmaster]

312. Taking stuff from an unoccupied house isn't robbery, and in Texas not even burglary

It's called "theft".

[Hangingon]

321. Call it what you will - it is legal to protect a third party's property

in Texas.

[Man_in_the_Moon]

368. Close.

Taking the stuff is theft.

Entering the house without permission to take the stuff is burglary.

Or at least that is the way the TPC seems to be worded.

§ 30.02. BURGLARY.

-(a) A person commits an offense if, without the effective consent of the owner, the person:
- (1) enters a habitation, or a building (or any portion of a building) not then open to the public, with intent to commit a felony, theft, or an assault; or
- (2) remains concealed, with intent to commit a felony, theft, or an assault, in a building or habitation; or
- (3) enters a building or habitation and commits or attempts to commit a felony, theft, or an assault.
-(b) For purposes of this section, "enter" means to intrude:
- (1) any part of the body; or
- (2) any physical object connected with the body.
-(c) Except as provided in Subsection (d), an offense under this section is a:
- (1) state jail felony if committed in a building other than a habitation; or
- (2) felony of the second degree if committed in a habitation.
-(d) An offense under this section is a felony of the first degree if:
- (1) the premises are a habitation; and
- (2) any party to the offense entered the habitation with intent to commit a felony other than felony theft or committed or attempted to commit a felony other than felony theft.

[karlrschneider]

30. Why exactly are you defending the CRIMINALS?

Bullshit.

[MadHound]

33. Why are you advocating death for a crime which, under US law, doesn't warrant it?

Why are you advocating vigilante justice? Why are you advocating for a wild west mentality in which we shoot first and ask questions later? Is stuff, material possessions, more important to you than human life? If this is truly how you feel, how in the hell can you even call yourself human? This man, this murderer wasn't in any danger at any point. All he had to do was sit tight in his house, act as a good witness, and justice would have been served. Instead, he took justice into his own hands and summarily decided to execute these two. That you condone such activity speaks volumes about your values, your ethics and morals, and quite frankly none of it is good.

[karlrschneider]

76. Then I suggest you stay away from my domicile if you have tendencies to rob.

...

[MadHound]

83. You didn't answer my question,

Namely why are you advocating vigilante justice? Why are you excusing a man for killing people over stuff, who killed people who were no threat to him? Why are you excusing a man who took the law into his own hands? Do you really want to go back to a society without the rule of law? Do you really want anarchy?

Sorry, but the fact that you condone such values and morals simply means that I will stay away from you period. I do not want to associate with people who don't believe in the rule of law, who value stuff over lives, and who believe in vigilante justice. Your sense of ethics and morals are obscene and disgusting, and sadly it is attitudes like yours that are contributing to the decline of civil, and even lawful society in this country. Congratulations, how does it feel to be part of the problem?

[Ghost in the Machine]

102. Who died and made YOU the morals & ethics fairy??

Your sense of ethics and morals are obscene and disgusting, and sadly it is attitudes like yours that are contributing to the decline of civil, and even lawful society in this country. Congratulations, how does it feel to be part of the problem?

The simple truth is, it's people like YOU who are the problem and who have let this nation slip into the moral decline that it has. All of you pacifists who want to mollycoddle criminals and scream about their "rights". What about the rights of their VICTIMS??? Don't I have the "right" to leave my house to go to work without worrying that some piece of shit that's too fucking sorry or too fucking lazy to work for what he needs is going to break into MY HOME and steal what I've WORKED MY ASS OFF to pay for?? Fuck a goddamned thief, kill them ALL like the worthless pieces of shit that they are.... I have don't have one tiny bit of pity for this asshole anywhere inside me.

Now tell ne honestly... do you think his widow is going to tell the son when he gets older that "daddy was killed by a bad man".. or is she going to tell him "your daddy was a piece of shit thief that was too lazy & sorry to work to provide for you and me, and he got killed while STEALING someone else's stuff from their home"... tell the truth, what do you think she'll say??

[MadHound]

140. Two black men in Pasadena died, that's who

And the sad fact is that they didn't have to. They weren't threatening the neighbor, he deliberately, and in cold blood, set out to kill these men.

The honest fact of the matter is that none of us can be completely secure in our possessions when we leave the house everyday. It doesn't matter where you live, or what precautions you take, the best that you can do is minimize your exposure and buy insurance. If you are looking for complete security, you'll never find it.

So why are you so fucking up in arms over *stuff*? Why are you so willing to kill people over *stuff*? Did you get beat up as a kid and have your *stuff* taken away? Is there some deep long buried trauma concerning your *stuff* that prompts you to such a hostile reaction? Because I've gotta tell you pal, your attitude and sense of morals and ethics is not just off, but it's skewed off the charts. What, you want to live under sharia law, cutting off hands of thieves, or killing them? I thought as Americans we were supposed to be a bit more compassionate than that. That we lived by the rule of law, not the rule of the jungle. Yet here you are, thumping your chest and saying that you want the rule of the jungle. HA! Let me tell you pal, having lived in a jungle, you and your fucking chest thumping wouldn't last five fucking minutes without being chewed up and spit out. You're nothing more than a scared sack of shit. That's why you're putting on this whole entire tough guy act, wanting to kill thieves and going off all macho on people whose opinion you don't agree with. You are so fucking scared, scared of thieves, scared of terrorists, scared of the dreaded "other", scared of almost everything to the extent that you're damn near paralyzed with fear. You're like one of those little yapping dogs when confronted by the shadow of a threat, you'll bark and bark, yet be pissing all over yourself at the same time.

We live in a country that has the rule of law and we don't need little pissy scared people like you taking justice into their own hands. That is what this man in Pasadena did. He wasn't threatened, he could have remained inside his house, done the good witness thing, and the cops would have done their job. Instead he was so scared, like you, that he had to go out and kill the threat. An unarmed threat, who was leaving and perhaps was shot in the back. Is that what you would do, shoot people in the back? Because you are so fucking pissy scared like this old man, I can see it.

You are pathetic, and really in some ways I feel sorry for you. You're so scared of everything that you can't truly open yourself up to new people or new experiences. You're locked into your own little world, yapping away at any threat that dares approach, while pissing all over yourself. How can you live with such stress? With such fear? Frankly at this point, I don't care. What I do care about is the fact that there are a significant number of people like you in our country, and that their fear is steering this country in the completely wrong direction. So if you want to fear everything, fine. But don't bring it into the public square and start trying to change our society. Bushco and the neocons have done this very thing, created a climate of faux fear and spread it throughout the country in order to push their own personal agenda. How does it feel to be on the side of the neocons on this one?

Enjoy your pathetic, fearful little life pal, just don't impose it on mine.

[SharkSquid]

147. The law is on my side in FL

So therefore I have the right to defend my "stuff" to which a theif has NO right.


The rule of law continues

and the wheel goes round....

[MadHound]

151. You don't even know the laws under which you live

You don't have the right to defend your stuff in Florida, you have the right to defend your life, or the lives of those in your family and house. A small but important distinction.

That is the rule of law, I suggest you familiarize yourself with it. Otherwise that wheel just might roll over you.

[SharkSquid]

154. Got it

I will tell you something and Florida judicial precedent will back me up here...

If someone

A person is "in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle" I will consider myself to have "a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm" and I will...

"shoot him"

I have read the law, I had to be very familiar with it to recieve my carry permit, thanks.

[MadHound]

188. You would be justified under the law

However, if you saw somebody breaking into your neighbor's house and exiting with stuff, as happened in this Pasadena incident, or breaking into your unoccupied car, under Florida law you would not be justified to kill that person.

You're not the only one who is familiar with the various gun laws.

[piedmont]

191. You would be perfectly within your rights to confront the people stealing the stuff.

And you would also be perfectly within your rights to be armed just in case the people you confronted tried to harm you.

But I agree that you can't just step out and execute them. That's murder.

[SharkSquid]

158. Someone is brazen enough to break into my home while I am

still in it, I will make the reasonable and proper assumption that he has made the decision to attack me should I wake up or confront him. "Bang your dead"

[LanternWaste]

184. Must be some pretty good "stuff" to outweigh life...

Must be some pretty good "stuff" to outweigh life...

[SharkSquid]

148. Wow thats harsh

You are pathetic, and really in some ways I feel sorry for you. You're so scared of everything that you can't truly open yourself up to new people or new experiences. You're locked into your own little world, yapping away at any threat that dares approach, while pissing all over yourself.


Sounds like someone needs a nap :)

[MadHound]

152. LOL, you are funny, in a sad sort of way

You claim that I'm the scared one when it is you and the poster that I was responding to who apparently wish to blow away anybody who dares to steal from you, your neighbors, etc. That is fear my friend, fear of others, fear of the world, and frankly by your willingness to take the law into your own hands, your willingness to meet out vigilante justice when it isn't warranted, that stench of fear rises from you like water vapor from a pond. What threat am I yapping at? You and the poster I was responding to are the ones barking, barking at anything that moves, anything that dares violate your own narrow space.

I certainly do need a nap however, I've been running short of sleep lately, thanks for your concern. But I'd rather need a nap that you and the poster above, who are obviously in short supply of compassion, a heart, and rational thought processes. Instead of using your brain and your heart, you are entirely too quick to reach for the gun. Sad that you need such a security blanket at your age.

[SharkSquid]

155. I meant the first part as a quote from the post I was replying to

cannot place the quotes there for clarification because the editing period has expired, only the nap part was mine...

sorry about the mixup, but I am pretty sad I agree.

[wtmusic]

220. Amen.

And it's not the "stuff" itself, it's the fact that someone's going to take the "stuff" away that will drive others to murder.

Anyone who would put their personal possessions over someone else's life is truly pitiable.

[Ghost in the Machine]

257. You're really quite the blowhard, aren't you?? I quit reading your tripe when I got

to the point of you calling me scared and wondering if I got beat up as a kid and had my stuff taken. No, mr. blowhard, as a matter of fact, I survived 6 years full time and another 2 years part time working as a bouncer in some of the roughest, toughest biker bars in Miami & Ft. Lauderdale when I was younger, on top of fighting in "tough man" and "king of the hill" fights. You shouldn't flap your fucking gums without knowing what the fuck you're talking about... which seems to your common way of doing things here. You're a lippy, mouthy fucking blowhard that's probably had your ass kicked more times than you can count. I'm willing to bet on that. I'd also bet that you're a mouthy fucking drunk with an alligator mouth and canary ass...

In other words, you let your mouth write checks that your body can't cash... hell, I'm 85% totally disabled now due to an accident at work, but I'd still step up and drop your ass in about 3 seconds flat.. ANY time you want to find out, just let me know... I LOVE bringing you mouth fuckers down a peg or two... but I have a feeling you're nothing but an "internet toughguy".. you run your mouth from behind a keyboard, but if you ran it like that in public you'd scream for the cops like a little baby for his mama's titty if someone stepped up and took you on.

Two thieves in Pasadena died and made YOU the morals and ethics fairy??? Bwaaaaaaahahahahahahahaaa... you are totally clueless, aren't you? Don't you have a trip to make to the local jail later??... you know, so you can pass out hugs to all the criminals??

Speaking of pathetic, go pick up a mirror and look into it, pal....

[SharkSquid]

266. *hugs GITM*

Thank you

[Ghost in the Machine]

269. Thanks brother, I needed that....

:hug:

[Hangingon]

299. That's a Bravo Zulu GITM!

[SharkSquid]

307. Amen

Nothing like hearing some sailorspeak :)

[MadHound]

274. Ooo, and his sychophant too! n/t

[wtmusic]

283. Seems like they all end up in Florida

Civil rights capital of the world (some problems are self-solving).

[SharkSquid]

308. Your really are kind of an asshole huh?

I am trying to determine why you are so smug, but It is eluding my "moronic" brain :)

[MadHound]

273. My, my, my, how sadly typical

The surest sign of the intellectually bankrupt and morality vacuous is those that blow and bluster. You have no intellectual comeback so you resort to crude threats and boasts. You truly are a work, aren't you. Your sense of projection is rank, you accuse me of being an "internet toughguy, yet it is you who are making the threats, you are doing the posturing, you who are crowing and preening about your street creds, your physique, growling and frothing. I was tempted to alert on you, for your post is clearly out of line around here, but I think I'll let it stand as a monument to who you really are. A man who cannot carry on a rational conversation, who thinks more with his fists rather than his brains, who cannot stand being contradicted, or shown up for who and what he truly is.

Peace pal, you really need to try it, calm down and chill out, before you blow a gasket. Besides, you're making yourself look more and more foolish. As the old saying goes, when you find yourself in a hole, quit digging.

[Ghost in the Machine]

284. Peace right back at you, dude...

I'm guilty of speaking my mind and not giving a damn who likes it and who doesn't....

We all have different paths in life, and we all follow our basic nature... we can find fault in each other, or we can accept each other with our perceived "faults" or shortcomings. My own admitted shortcoming is my rabid defense of my things that I've worked MY ass off to pay for. EVERYTHING I've got in this life was EARNED by my blood, sweat & tears, and I'll just be damned if someone is going to waltz in and TAKE my stuff without a fight.... Yes, if someone violates the sanctity of MY HOME, they do so at their own peril... period. If you WANT something, you'd better be willing to work for it. The kind of work I've done, I put *my* life on the line every day. Have you ever walked a 4 inch wide steel beam 15 or 20 STORIES off the ground, with nothing between you and death but 150 to 200 feet of air and a hard concrete slab at the end of the fall?

What kind of work do you do *you* do? Do you work in an office somewhere where you don't know the feeling that each day coming to work could be your last if you make one minor mistake? I can see where someone may not be as defensive of their "stuff" if they haven't poured buckets of sweat, or spilled their own blood, to make their paycheck to buy the things that they own.... have you ever worked on a steel roof when it was 105 degrees out, and the sun reflecting off the steel around you made it about 125 degrees? Have you ever been 15 stories in the air, putting a steel roof on when it was 5 below zero, with wind chill factors about 15 to 20 below?? .... I have... and unless you've ever been there, I doubt you'd ever understand it...

Go in peace, Mad Hound.... I'm not going to argue this point with you any more. We'll just have to agree that we're both individuals and we have differeing viewpoints in our world views... you won't change me and I won't change you... and it's really just that simple...

[MadHound]

289. Oh I understand where you're coming from

I started my adult life homeless and on the street. I've done my fair share of manual labor, and while I haven't worked the high wire steel act, I have been a roofer, firefighter, bouncer, and other such "body work" Being a big guy, it seemed natural for me to use my strength to make money, at least when I was young.

Now, not so much. I'm still as strong as I ever was, but damn, it hurts more the next morning when I get up. I had to lay my bike down at 55 mph in late September, and just now the last of the bumps and bruises are going away. So now I've gone back to college to use my brain rather than my brawn:shrug: From here on out, my body's labor is going to be going into my farm.

I value my stuff as much as the next person, but my POV is that when push comes to shove, stuff can be replaced, a life can't. Sure, if somebody breaks into my house when I'm home, they're going to be facing a couple of large dogs and myself, and frankly they'd better hope the dogs get to them first. But this guy in Pasadena, naw, I can't go there. The man wasn't being threatened, it wasn't his property or his house, it was his neighbor's. The cops were on the way, all he had to do was be a good witness and the cops would have had these guys. But instead, he took justice into his own hands and killed them. I can't hang with that, sorry.

You take care of yourself, OK. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, and frankly I think beneath the bravo and the bluster, we're probably more alike than not, and agree on more issues than not. So go with grace and have a great Thanksgiving. Who knows, perhaps we'll run into each other someday and have a beer and a laugh over this. Peace:hi:

[Ghost in the Machine]

291. Well, I must admit that you've made your point well...

It does seem like this guy was just intent on killing someone... for whatever reason he thought he could justify in his mind. I still have no pity for the thieves, but that's just me, I guess....

Yes, I think we're probably more alike than we know. Sounds like we started out our adult lives about the same, except I was homeless by choice. I could have stayed with my parents, other family or friends, but I *had* to do it MY WAY, on my own terms. That's pretty much how I've lived my life.... on my own terms.

I know about those aches and pains too.. I fell two stories back in 2003 & broke my neck. I'm damned lucky to be walking at all, even though I walk like I'm drunk most of the time because of nerve damage and two major neck surgeries... I still think I'm 10 foot tall and bullet proof though... I don't don't view myself as disabled, I just think of myself as unabled... I'm unable to do some of the things I used to do, and I'm just bullheaded enough to hurt myself proving to myself that I can't do something now that I always took for granted before... I'm just now learning how to work with my brain instead of my brawn also.. it's going to be a tough journey, but I think I'm up for it..

If you're ever coming to the East Tennessee area, let me know and we can have that beer... here's wishing a peaceful & happy Thanksgiving to you and yours...

PEACE!

Ghost

[Recursion]

342. Or, ask that the other way...

Why are you so willing to kill people over *stuff*?

Why were Messrs. Ortiz and de Jesus willing to die over *stuff*?

he could have remained inside his house, done the good witness thing, and the cops would have done their job.

Something like 30% of thefts are solved, and in few of those cases do the victims get their stuff back. I agree with you that it's wrong to kill over *stuff* (though it's even more wrong to be willing to die over stuff, like the slain men were). The problem is that barring omniscience you don't know if the guy taking your neighbor's stereo is going to stop at just taking *stuff*.

[MadHound]

345. Given the fact that this guy was on the phone with the cops

Who were on their way, who would be there shortly, that they guy could have simply been a good witness, gotten a good description of the guys and their license plate, yeah, I think that these two would have been caught in short order. Instead, they were killed, in cold blood, but some guy who wanted to play vigilante and who wound up being a murderer.

Stuff, I don't care what the stuff is, is never worth killing a person over. It's a sad statement on our materialistic society that so many people seem willing, even eager to do just that.

[Recursion]

355. *shrug*

The shooter never left his property, as far as I can tell. I have trouble telling someone they shouldn't be able to be in their own front yard. There's a lot here that doesn't add up to me. Why did he tell the operator he was looking to shoot them? Why did they approach a man with a shotgun while they were robbing his neighbor's house?

Stuff, I don't care what the stuff is, is never worth killing a person over.

And where do you get your crystal ball to determine that "stuff" is all a criminal wants?

Do you know they weren't also arsonists, ready to torch the place after they robbed it and possibly end up burning down the whole neighborhood? Do you know they also aren't going to go to your house right after? Or your neighbor down the street who is elderly and at home alone?

Why do you expect people to cower in their homes rather than go out and confront a crime in progress? What the hell do we know our neighbors for? Why do you trust the cops so much? And again, why do you refuse to acknowledge that it was Ortiz and de Jesus who decided that their lives were worth less than somebody's stuff?

[MadHound]

394. Because Ortiz and de Jesus did not decide that their lives were worth less than somebody's stuff

The man who took justice into his own hands and shot them made that decision.

You bring up lots of strawmen in your post(may be arsonists, after an old lady, etc.) but the fact of the matter is that these men were unarmed, the police were on their way and would have caught them, except that Mr. Horn just got a hard on for killing somebody and did so. Even worse, being that this is in Texas, he will probably get away with murder.

Sadly, this sort of mindset is pervading the country. We're turning into a cold hearted, me first, instant gratification, trigger happy, mindless sheeple population.

[SharkSquid]

156. Have we ever had a civil and moral society?

By definition, in order to decline you have to be near some sort of peak, no?

[Ghost in the Machine]

271. That's a great question... and there's really no "canned" answer for it..

People have been fighting and killing each other since Cain & Abel, haven't they?

[MedleyMisty]

178. Nice to know that there's well paying jobs out there for every single person

And that anyone who can't find a steady good job with great benefits and enough money to buy a house and a car and stuff with is just lazy and a piece of shit. Obviously there are hundreds of people out on every street corner offering six figure jobs to everyone who walks by. I don't know how I missed that, but I must have. Pity, I could have saved myself the three years of hell at Arby's.

Plus, good to know that your stuff is worth more than living beings. Must be some pretty nice stuff, to be worth your soul.

But I do have something in common with you - I can't find any pity for you anywhere in my soul. With the way the species and the planet is going these days, it's harder and harder to find pity and kindness for those who are causing the destruction and the hate and the violence and lack all empathy.

[SharkSquid]

180. So we are rationalizing theft now?

Sounds like it...

BTW, I do not, nor have I ever made 6 figures or been offered such a job. Clearly this is what you covet but whatever.

And dont lecture me about my soul, I know what it is like to take a life and I will not do it lightly. But if they fail to leave my home immediately I will use deadly force.

[Ghost in the Machine]

263. Your first mistake is assuming I *have* a soul.....

Your second mistake is assuming that I actually give a fuck what *you* think of me.

One thing I've learned about myself during my lifetime is that I am inherently evil. I don't know why and I can't explain it, but I'd just as soon cut your head off and stick on my fence post as I would look at you... However, I honestly do TRY to be a good person. When I had my thrift store open, I GAVE AWAY more stuff than I sold because people would come in looking around and couldn't even afford a $2 pair of jeans or shirt or sweater..... just this afternoon I counted up over $6,000 worth of tickets from my restaurant where I've fed people who came in off the streets looking for something to eat and had no money. They offered to wash dishes, sweep the parking lot, different things like that, and I already had someone I paid to do that... so I just gave them a meal, wished them good luck and told them to pay it back to someone else somewhere down the line when they were able to...

Like I said.. I TRY to deny my nature, but sometimes people make it very hard, if not impossible, to do so. I'm sure you've heard the phrase "I'm the nicest guy you'd ever want to meet in your life, but if you EVER cross me, I'll be your worst fucking nightmare" before right? That actually describes me to a tee...

If you're cold, I'll give you the shirt off of my back, but by god, if you STEAL my shirt from me, I'll break your fucking arms, no questions asked.... I hate a thief, period.... I have no pity or mercy for them.

As for you having to work at an Arby's for 3 years... hey, we ALL do what we HAVE to do to survive. The only person who can't find a job is someone who isn't looking for one. You *may* have to take a job you don't really like or want, but if you want to take care of your family you do whatever you have to to make an HONEST living. There is absolutely NO SHAME in working ANYWHERE as long as it's honest. Me? I've shoveled shit from the pits of chicken house into trucks to be spread out over fields for fertilizer... I've worked in the squash and bean fields in south florida, picking and packing... I've worked in a restaurant for minimum wage or a little bit more when I couldn't find a job framing, hanging steel or commercial roofing, even though I was used to making $15 -$18 per hour. But you know what?? I held my fucking head HIGH and determined myself to be the BEST dishwasher, fry cook or delivery person that company had ever had, because I was making an HONEST LIVING and didn't have to STEAL from ANYBODY....

Save your pity for someone who needs it because I certainly don't... and BTW... the ONLY thing you have in common with me is that we live on the same planet... and that might be questionable...

[Hoof Hearted]

339. So if you can't make six figures with benefits just take somebody else's stuff?

Please, let us all know where you live so we can send all the criminals to you. You can give them guided tours and direct them to your most valuable items and family heirlooms, after all, it's just your stuff.

You worked at Arby's for three years, huh? Am I supposed to feel sorry for you or something?


Your blatant advocacy for criminal behavior and your twisted and inverse assignment of responsibility is repugnant.

[Hangingon]

297. Well said.

We have moral decline because we keep excusing criminal behavior.

[Hangingon]

296. I have problem with the use of the "vigilante justice" phrase...

when I am actually protecting my property on that of my neighbors. This is a case of a neighbor not a vigilante group. The Texas penal code allows this protection. In my experience - two home robberies - the police never capture the thief. I don't think they try. The sympathetically gave me incident reports to use in my insurance claim. The insurance company couldn't replace my grandmother's jewelry. I will protect my home applying force or deadly force are appropriate.

[acmavm]

170. You think your 'stuff' is worth more than a human life? Why am I

not surprised?

[SharkSquid]

172. If someone breaks into my house

While I am there, what garuantees can you offer on me or my wifes safety.

[SharkSquid]

176. BTW

Your quick to make sweeping judgements acmavm, why am I not suprised?

[acmavm]

196. Who knows why you do anything. Or cares for that matter.

[SharkSquid]

204. Aparently you, because you are so concerned about my

motives and laying judgement on me.

However, I am done playing middle school with you, I have beter things to do.

[northzax]

254. you'd kill someone for a VCR?

or would it have to be a DVD player?

[Bluebear]

258. Yes, I believe he would.

[SharkSquid]

264. If he forcibly enters my home and ignores my warnings to flee

Or makes any move toward me in a threatening manner yes I would shoot and I would shoot to kill which is the only option given to me under the law.

[Bluebear]

265. His home was not being threatened. He was batshit crazy & had an itchy finger

[SharkSquid]

268. I concur and if he confronted them and they ran away

And he shot them = murder

If he confronted them and they tried to attack him and they shot him = self defense

[proud2BlibKansan]

39. Do you also support the practice of cutting off the hand of a thief?

Stoning women who commit adultery?

No one is defending the criminals. Just asking for a reasonable penalty. Death in this case was not reasonable.

[Strelnikov_]

43. Thats the thought that came to my mind reading this thread

Sharia Law. No proportionality, just revenge.

[SharkSquid]

165. And what is a proportional response to theft?

Putting them in prison so they can get out, be unable to get a job and steal again.

Stealing is quite lucrative, particularly when the homeowners dont shoot back.

Sometimes you get the extra benefit of sexually assaulting the women of the household.


A friend of mine once defended a woman who put a bullet between the eyes of a man trying to rape her. She is not justified?

[Strelnikov_]

169. Restitution Fine Incarceration proportional to what was stolen

(edit to add) and proportional to criminal record.

What is your proportional response?

A friend of mine once defended a woman who put a bullet between the eyes of a man trying to rape her. She is not justified?

And how is this germane to the current thread? It is clear the shooter was in no danger until he left his house. Self defense is not the issue.

[SharkSquid]

173. However we are getting into an arguemnt of proportional response

I have no garuantees that a theif will not attack me or my family if given the opportunity.

No opportunity will be given.

[Strelnikov_]

211. We are discussing proportional response to a burglary

at a disconnected property, where there was no apparent threat to the shooter if he would have remained where the police asked him.

It seems you are using a preemptive, 'pre-crime', argument, surprisingly similar to that used by the Republican Traitor party to justify the invasion of Iraq. That is, if someone could be a threat, in any form, at some future date, a summary death penalty is justified.


And since you are delving into hypothetical, lets consider a scenario. Lets assume the 'perps' in this case were simply victims of crime themselves, in that the owner of the burgled house did not pay them for services rendered. And the 'perps' were, admittedly illegally, trying to obtain due compensation to feed their families, and offered no threat other than to flee when challenged? Would the 'perps' in this case fall under a field death penalty in your shoot first ask questions later world?

[SharkSquid]

246. Where do I say shoot first ask questions later?

I have said at least 5 times on this board already that confrontation comes first and if they fail to flee or escalate, deadly force is used.

This guy was in the wrong unless they actually threatened his life.

[Strelnikov_]

251. I agree

One should always have the right to defend themselves.

[blogslut]

41. Why are you defending a crazy vigilante?

Did you listen to the 9-1-1 tape?

[MiniMe]

79. What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? The guy was judge, jury,

and executioner, and there was no trial held. Isn't that the same thing we accuse W of with the people in Guantanamo?

[LisaL]

98. Well, if you are acting in self-defense, then I am sorry, you don't

have to wait for a trial.

[MiniMe]

101. How is this self defense?

He was in his own house, and he decided to go outside with a shotgun to kill them, per the audio tape.

[BadgerLaw2010]

157. There's no self defense privilage if you see the confrontation.

This guy left his home with a shotgun to confront two people committing property crime.

[piedmont]

171. So, no one should ever confront people committing property crimes?

Or should they just not prepare themselves for the possibility that the perps would harm them?

[SharkSquid]

174. "Here Mr Theif, please take my TV, I surrender all I have worked hard for"

Boy I hope the JSO will make this their top priority!

[wtmusic]

232. Relax. No one's going to take your fucking TV that you worked so hard for.

You got yours, and anyone who tries to take it from you will get shot. We understand. :eyes:

[SharkSquid]

236. So if someone was in you house taking you "stuff"

You would let them without confrontation?

That is where the shooting comes in, if non violent confrontation fails to work.

Geez what a pompous post.

[wtmusic]

239. So now they're inside my house, eh?

Confrontation = shooting someone?

I know these are complicated issues, but try to make a distinction. They are important distinctions.

[SharkSquid]

243. Re-read my post please

Non-violent confrontation, or the threat of deadly force fails to deter = shooting somone, yes.

I will not use deadly force to defend my property that will involve deterrent force. If they contine to escalate and do not run, the assuumption has to be they intend further hostile action to myself and my family. Escalate to deadly force.

I know these are complicated issues, but I would appreciate not being talked down to I realize that you are probably some sort of message board god and I am a mere newbie, but I am doing my best to keep my cool I would appreciate the same.

[wtmusic]

247. Scenario

You wake up to find thieves taking your TV, stereo, etc. You tell them to stop and they don't, but they are facing away and have not physically threatened you or your family.

Do you shoot them in the back?

[SharkSquid]

248. Go up and get into their face

Or if I have my weapon, inform them that I have a gun and they are to leave my house immediately.

If they fail to do so, I can only assume that they will attempt to further ransack my house and kill or intimidate witnesses and perhaps avail themselves of my wife.

I WILL NEVER shoot someone who is fleeing.

[wtmusic]

249. By not leaving your house you could assume

they would eventually kill someone there and maybe rape your wife? They are still taking stuff and ignoring you.

[SharkSquid]

256. Reasonable assumption

Here is the thing, if they are not armed I would eventually end up hitting them if I did not have a gun.

If I am pointing a gun in their direction and they are still ignoring me (not going to happen, unless in your strange fantasy world you have concocted) there will likely be a more intense discussion and then I will fire my weapon to kill IAW Florida's Castle Doctrine which gives me that right to make the assumption "that a criminal who forcibly enters or intrudes into your home or occupied vehicle is there to cause death or great bodily harm, therefore a person may use any manner of force, including deadly force, against that person."

[wtmusic]

282. But now they know all they have to do

is turn their backs toward you and you won't shoot them! And why wouldn't you? The State of Florida has given you that right. Is the State of Florida possibly not the final arbiter of morality in your book?

[SharkSquid]

314. Because they are running away

I thought I made that one pretty clear.

But since you didnt get it I will say it all slow-like:

You
Don't
Shoot
People
who
are
running
away,
fleeing
is
the
surest
negation
of
hostile
intention


got it? or do I need to go letter by letter.

[BadgerLaw2010]

212. With deadly force? The police aren't allowed to do this, why should Rambo be able to?

A police officer opening fire on two burglars without the slightest attempt to arrest them would be guilty of a violation of civil rights (unreasonable seizure).

In fact, shooting burglary suspects in the back to "stop" them was the subject of one of the leading cases on this subject, Tennessee v. Garner.

[piedmont]

223. If they try to harm him, yes!

If he stepped out with only the intent of shooting them (which appears most likely), then of course it's murder. Especially if they really were shot in the back.

But if he went out only to confront them, and armed himself for the possibility that he may need to protect himself or others, and they THEN tried to harm him, then it's self-defense.

[BadgerLaw2010]

229. And is there any evidence they tried to harm him? That they posed any physical threat to him?

I don't think he has even tried to claim that yet. He says he was "scared" but that is disputed by the 911 tape rather strongly. And unreasonable belief, or claimed belief after-the-fact is no excuse for murder. It just makes it lesser murder.

We've got explicit intent to kill on the tape, sounds of the shooting consistent with him opening fire immediately in a one-sided exchange, and two people who were killed from behind.

I'm not seeing any evidence of self-defense.

[piedmont]

240. This particular guy? No-- but my question to you was about confronting burglars in general.

You said:
"This guy left his home with a shotgun to confront two people committing property crime."

...as if that were a bad thing. I have no problem with the action you describe. But that's probably not what happened in this case.

[SharkSquid]

231. Exactly I would inform them that I have a gun (as I have before)

but sometimes this is not enough just ask people who have tried to use fake guns as a deterrent. Shoot to kill.

[northzax]

253. why are you?

he's the killer, not them.

[lumberjack_jeff]

49. Perhaps his intent was to scare the robbers away from the neighbor's house.

Instead of leaving, the robbers approached the homeowner. No doubt to ask if he'd help carry the neighbor's stuff.

[MadHound]

50. First of all, the 911 tape doesn't bear that supposition out, the man wanted to shoot somebody

Second, even if this fact wasn't on tape, any responsible gun owner will tell you that you don't tote a gun out to "scare" somebody, for as we've seen in this instance, "scaring" somebody quickly turns into killing somebody. Every responsible gun group(including the NRA who I don't consider all that responsible) will tell you that if you are pulling a gun out, you must be doing so realizing that you could kill somebody. You don't do it to scare somebody, you do so only in self defense. This wasn't a case of self defense, this was a case of vigilante justice, and the man should do time for his actions.

[lumberjack_jeff]

128. You make a good argument

And I appreciate that you have presented it in an eminently reasonable and respectful way.

I am finding that reasonable and respectful are in short supply these days. :hi:

[sandnsea]

24. Being on your property

does not make it legal to kill them. They have to be truly threatening your life or real property damage. You can't kill somebody for stealing a flower, for instance.

[lumberjack_jeff]

47. So if I were to walk onto my front yard with a shotgun...

... it would be like bait for nonviolent innocents?

If I'm in my yard with a shotgun and the people robbing my neighbors house come onto my yard within 15 feet of my front door, I'd say that there is some justification to feeling threatened.

I think it's tragic all around. I don't accept your argument for premeditation.

The prosecutor should charge the shooter with manslaughter. I doubt even that would stick.

[LisaL]

53. There is this guy's conversation with 911, which I think goes against

your argument.
The 911 operator did not tell him to go out and shoot these people. In fact the 911 operator told him not to go out there, and that it's not worth it to shoot anyone. The guy, though, was saying he is not gonna let them to get away with it, and he is gonna shoot.

[Alexander]

75. A dispatcher is not a cop. He did not have to take orders.

Yes, he's probably crazy, yes, he's wrong, and yes, it was likely a case of massive overkill.

But you are not answerable to police dispatchers, because they are not officers.

[LisaL]

96. Well, at the same time, how credible his argument of self-defense

is going to be, when he is told not to do it and he is saying he is gonna do it? Then he goes outside and does it.

[piedmont]

111. But they approached him, didn't they? nt

[LostinVA]

141. How did they approach HIM?

They were one someone else's property, he was in his house. He left his house and approached the men, and shot them. He told 911 he was going to kill them. He was excited and eager. I've heard the tape of the call. He MURDERED them.

Some of the res;ponses on this thread are horrifying to me. The guy was never under any threat. I have zero problem with self defense, but this was NOT a self defense killing.

[piedmont]

153. They were on HIS property. nt

[LostinVA]

275. Oh no, they weren't -- not until he went outside

We know that from the tape.

[piedmont]

277. Exactly-- they approached him AFTER they saw him. nt

[Guaranteed]

120. No premeditation? How many times does the guy have to say

"I'm going to kill them" for you to believe that he intended to kill them all along, well before they stepped onto his property (if they did at all)?

Why did he even leave his house? The 911 operator told him not to.

[ileus]

9. two fewer useless crooks

[LostinVA]

142. Unbelievable

[LanternWaste]

187. Because once a thief always a thief...?

Because once a thief always a thief...? And the moral and righteous response to theft is death...?

[piedmont]

245. MORE than once a thief. He was on parole while committing another crime. nt

[Toots]

11. Lesson learned if you steal bring a gun and shoot first..

There are crazy neighbors in America that think stealing demands a death sentence.. Shoot first.. Just think if everyone had a gun and was willing to shoot at the drop of a hat what a wonderful place this would be...

[northzax]

255. indeed, lesson learned to burglars

carry a gun and be prepared to use it.

[1monster]

13. Another article I read said that the men were SHOT IN THE BACK.

This one states that they were fifteen feet from the front door.

Obviously, there are facts about this incident that I have not heard yet or I am at a loss to understand how this is a home invasion robbery of any kind.

Regardless of what their intensions were, if they were shot in the back, then there is no justification for the shootings.

[fed-up]

15. listen to the tape-the shooter planned on killing them and went outside to do so nt

[cigsandcoffee]

14. If a person just doesn't rob a house, they won't get shot.

What's so difficult about this equation for some people?

Don't want to get shot? Good! Don't rob from your neighbors!

[YankmeCrankme]

25. What illogic

Plenty of people have gotten shot that weren't robbing houses and plenty others that were robbing houses haven't gotten shot.

Last time I looked robbing a house wasn't a capital offense, otherwise the states that have the death penalty would be executing a lot more people.

[cigsandcoffee]

64. I think it's very logical.

Don't want to get shot by a person defending their property?

Then don't rob their property. Pretty simple, that.

As to this case in question, there is no doubt in my mind that the Joe Horn fellow executed the robbers. He may face trial for that, and probably should. But it doesn't negate the fact that if these two felonious douchebags weren't robbing a house, they'd still be alive today.

The one had a baby son. How fucking dare he run the risks that he did? I mean, how fucking dare he?

A total scumbag, IMO.

[earth mom]

69. I'm with you.

It's sad that a kid lost a dad, but the dad was in the wrong to begin with..

[YankmeCrankme]

82. Not only are you illogical, but you have a reading comprehension problem too

You said, "If a person just doesn't rob a house, they won't get shot." Lots of people have been shot who didn't rob houses just as many people who have robbed houses haven't been shot. It's not an either/or situation. Either/Or is a fallacy in logic, in case you didn't notice.

[cigsandcoffee]

103. Well, what are you arguing for?

In this thread, we're speaking of robbery. Are you concerned that people have gotten shot while hunting or driving their cars? What's your point, here? Snarkiness?

[YankmeCrankme]

179. I've been arguing that your statement is a fallacy of logic

It's not so simple that if you don't rob a house you won't get shot, because people get shot even when they don't rob houses. You're presenting an argument as either/or and that is a fallacy in logic.

My seeming "snarkiness" is just frustration over the refusal to understand the error in an argument like that.

We can just leave it at that.

[cigsandcoffee]

219. Is your argument meant to contribute to the thread....

...or take me to task for what should obvious to anyone? Of course robbing a house isn't the only way to get shot. Who said it was?

What I said was that people who don't want to get shot shouldn't rob houses. Should I have added the plethora of other behaviours to that comment which might result in a person getting shot? Pretty bizarre idea.

It seems to me that you're just being snarky.

[SharkSquid]

237. I am rereading your post and failing to see where you were going

with it so how about we just let me admit that I am clearly an idiot and dont get it.

Ill drop that line.

[SharkSquid]

146. However it is comepletely logical

To assume that your chances of getting shot by an angry homeowner are GREATER than if you just stayed home and DIDNT ROB THE EFFING HOUSE!

Someone has a reading problem but I dont think it is the other guy :)

[YankmeCrankme]

185. Unfortunately, that wasn't his statement. Now was it? nt

[SharkSquid]

205. Was referring to your logic not his... n/t

[alarimer]

17. Most of the comments in this thread are disgusting

So now people committing any crime should just die? And the neighbors should be allowed to go all gun-crazy and just shoot anyone who MAY be breaking in (or even running away)to SOMEONE ELSE'S HOUSE? Do you get to decide who lives or dies? I sure as fuck hope not. I am glad you are not my neighbors, if you support vigilante jackasses like this.

Silly me, I prefer the justice system with jury trials, not anyone and everyone acting as as executioner.

[LisaL]

26. There is also a possibility that someone might think a person

is breaking into house, when it's actually a neighbor who forgot his key, his relatives, etc. Doesn't seem to be in this case, but if it is not your property, don't think you should be apprehending to whoever you think is committing the crime.

[YankmeCrankme]

34. Not surprising.

There is an alarming number of posters that have a hardon for killing people who are committing burglary, stealing bales of hay, committing vandalism, trespassing, etc. They like to justify it by saying they shouldn't be doing those things, so killing them is a good response. You know, one less criminal to worry about.

It would solve the prison population problem...we'd have no need for them. Free up that real estate for something useful, like a mall.

I wonder if they feel the same for white collar crime. Cheat on your taxes and get the death penalty. Embezzle money from business, get death penalty. Fraud, death penalty.

[cgrindley]

210. As a matter of fact, yes

I believe in large, powerful and invasive socialist government. I want such a government to protect the rights of the citizens from those deviants who try to put their lawless needs before everyone else's. So yes.

Of course, I don't believe in the death penalty, but I do believe in long and bleak prison sentences.

[WinkyDink]

259. China has room.

[cgrindley]

270. That's a Freepish comment if ever I heard one

what's wrong with the nanny state?

[SharkSquid]

310. Because people become retarded and dependent

Or in other words...America

but that is a conversation for another thread.

[BadgerLaw2010]

218. I'm loving the people who endorse what would be police brutality if a cop did it.

Shooting two burglary suspects dead without warning, apparently from behind? That's entirely unreasonable.

Can you imagine the shitfit if this audio was from a police radio call? But we want to give some doddering, rabid homeowner Rambo the benefit of the doubt, apparently.

[Cronus Protagonist]

298. Sadly, this place is looking more and more like FreeRepublic

:(

[SharkSquid]

315. Sadly anytime someone has a differing viewpoint

This place goes all inverse-McCarthy on everyone.

"Are you or have you ever been a Freeper?"

[Cronus Protagonist]

316. Nah, it's when people use republican talking points

And gush over authoritarian policies and actions that makes me say that. There's always been disagreements here, but few people on DU would argue as if they were on the same side as Matt Drudge.

[Recursion]

343. "Should"? I don't know that people are saying that

People are saying that thieves "often are" killed in the line of thievery, and that at some point you have to assign responsibility for someone's death on his choices in life. Ortiz and de Jesus decided that their lives were worth less to them than somebody else's stuff. Whether or not Horn deserves to go to jail for what he did is an entirely separate issue: Ortiz and de Jesus made a very bad decision that cost them their lives and orphaned Ortiz's baby child.

[Paladin]

19. They Played The Tape On MSNBC This Morning

Any notion that this old fool was in fear of his life is ridiculous. Neither he nor his home was in any danger. What he wanted was the opportunity to shoot a couple of people, and that's exactly what he did. Rank vigilantism. And now he's crying about it? Fuck him. And fuck any of you who side with him......

[fed-up]

23. the tape is also available at the abc link in the original post on this thread nt

[karlrschneider]

31. You will defend any criminal no matter what. Why is that?

:puke:

[High Plains]

48. Why are you defending the criminal shooter?

Is premeditated murder your thing?

[Paladin]

56. Thanks For Living Down To My Expectations, Herr Schneider

It is my fervent wish that those two burglars were in custody, facing jury trials, and if convicted, good long prison sentences. If you have a problem with that, if you want to defend this old thug for taking the law into his own hands, be my guest. I'm sure that what he did satisfied any number of grimy fantasies that you and your fellow DU gun obsessives entertain....

[karlrschneider]

70. HERR? Jeezusfuckingchrist, what are you, like 13?

:eyes:

[Paladin]

104. Lighten Up, Karl

I've used the "Herr Schneider" thing 4 or 5 times previously. Why are you blowing a gasket now?

[Skittles]

138. because he is an ass

yes

[Alexander]

77. Dude, Hitler banned guns. Do you actually know anything?

Apparently not.

[NorthernSpy]

94. who said anything about Hitler?

:wtf:

[stimbox]

222. Neither do you, apparently...

The gun laws in Germany were already in effect before the Nazis seized power.
They just strengthened them against the Jewish citizens and Communists.
Nazi party members were allowed to keep their gun though.
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlergun.html

[Guaranteed]

124. Got news for ya- the criminal in that tape wasn't breaking into a house.

He planned to and did shoot two people in the back with a shotgun.

[Hoof Hearted]

341. This isn't a GW Bush kinda issue, you know, us or the "terra-rists"

I happen to believe Mr. Horn may just squeak by under Texas law but that doesn't mean I think he did the right thing. I think he was a minuteman wannabe Texas big-balls jackass running on 95% adrenaline and 2% brains. I can't account for the remainder but I'd guess alcohol or medications might.

On the other hand, I'm SURE the freakin' robbers understood there was an outside possibility they could get killed committing what they knew to be a criminal act of home invasion and burglary. They took that chance, made that bet, and lost. I have no sympathy for them.

[sandnsea]

21. Reasonable force is the law

If you want vigilante justice, move to Florida.

We do not have the death penalty for robbery.

[karlrschneider]

32. Some of us do.

Pull that shit around here, you're a dead man. If more people would watch out for their neighbors like that guy did, there would be a lot less crime.

[seabeyond]

36. i dont want you to kill someone for my things karl. must i walk to all my neighbors

and tell them a simple call to 911 would suffice. killing someone for anything i have isnt worth a death to me.

[blogslut]

40. You cannot be serious

I thought you were better than that, Karl.

[sandnsea]

51. Unless your state has changed your laws

to match Florida's - you will go to jail if you did what that man did. I know you *think* you can shoot any criminal on sight, but the fact is that it is against the law. You can only use necessary force equal to the danger at hand. You can protect property to some extent, but we kinda quit hanging horse thieves a very long time ago.

[benEzra]

100. Florida's law would be the same as California's for this case.

Florida's presumption of justification only applies if someone is actually breaking into YOUR house (and you are in it), or is trying to carjack you. Doesn't apply on the street or in your neighbor's yard, e.g. would not apply in this case.

[TommyO]

54. Remind us which state you live in, so we don't make the mistake of visiting it.

[Paladin]

57. Better An Occasional Burglar On My Street Than You.....(n/t)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

68. Oh great, you'd have a society where any old paranoid with a gun

can shoot anyone he THINKS may be about to commit a crime.

You need to get a grip, Karl. Having a gun doesn't make an anger junkie a hero. It just makes him an anger junkie with the potential to kill people for no good reason.

[NorthernSpy]

99. No: responsible gun ownership requires a firm understanding of what you may and may not do...

If you're not willing to exercise discipline and follow the law -- regardless of your emotional response to a given situation -- then you shouldn't have a gun.

[Guaranteed]

126. Great post. nt

[Paladin]

395. Well Said, NS (n/t)

[Guaranteed]

125. You're the guy Michael Moore was talking about in Bowling for Columbine. nt

[karlrschneider]

29. Simple way to avoid it...don't fucking steal.

Good riddance to bad garbage.

[treestar]

61. Shooting them in the back as they are running away is not

necessary however, and don't effing do it if you don't want to end up in jail. True, they were burglars. He, however, is a murderer.

[karlrschneider]

73. He should get a medal.

...

[NorthernSpy]

91. for shooting two people in the back after being ordered not to?

After announcing that his intention was to kill, not to take anyone into custody?


Sorry, but your "hero" committed a crime more heinous than burglary.

[riverdeep]

63. My head is telling me you're wrong,

but my heart is telling me you're right. Anyway, something tells me robberies are going to be down in that particular neighborhood.

And what kind of a moron walks up to someone with a gun?

"De Jesus had a criminal history and was on parole when he was killed." Such a shame, so close to that Rhodes scholarship.

[karlrschneider]

74. I'm just sick and fucking tired of honest people being ripped off by thugs.

No sympathy for 'em.

[YankmeCrankme]

88. First of all, you have no idea whether the neighbor was a honest or good person.

To assume everyone who is a victim of a crime is a nice, honest, warm, cuddly person is naive at best.

Secondly, my sense from your posts are you have a deep seated unresolved anger issue. Get help before you hurt someone.

[Guaranteed]

127. He sure didn't seem like it from the tape.

He had bloodlust and acted on it, killed two people.

[Quantess]

322. Me too! We were burglarized last night.

Someone stole the GPS device out of my boyfriend's truck last night! He locks his truck 95% of the time, but last night he didn't lock it. The thief stole a big bundle of keys, too, which is even worse. We've been checking behind bushes to see if the keys got thrown. Maybe the thief will come back another night and try to use them...which won't work, because none of the keys are house keys. It's a pain in the ass and a feeling of being violated, that is worse than the loss of items.

Anyway, today I'm in a mood to agree with you 100%, karlrschneider!

[Catherine Vincent]

52. I am glad one of the wive's came forward.

The shooter is already feeling guilty. He'll feel worse now. He may get off like a lot of you are hoping but I don't think he'll be happy. He was too quick to shoot the two "blacks" as he calls them.

[Didereaux]

58. They jes deserved killin'...end of freakin story! scare an old man at your own peril

[NorthernSpy]

93. you're confusing "scared" with "homicidal"...

He told the operator that he was going to go kill the men, and he left his house to do that.

That doesn't indicate "scared". That indicates homicidal.

[Didereaux]

112. ...you're not old are you? or you would understand that old man

[LisaL]

123. That guy was only 61.

[Didereaux]

129. newscast I heard locally was he is 72, hell I'm in the 60+ crowd and yep that feels old too often

[LisaL]

131. I've read in the article he was 61. I will see if I can find it.

[LisaL]

132. Well, dah.

There is no need to look for the article, since the OP article says the guy was 61.

[Didereaux]

135. tough call..the lying newscasters or the idiot newswriters! sigh hey he had gray hair! ;)

[LisaL]

137. His age could be important.

I mean, if he is over 70, that's one thing. If he is only 61, that's another.

[LostinVA]

143. The guy is SIXTY ONE -- that isn't old

My parents are 62, and are both active, "normal" people... and they own guns.

I've listened to the call... he's a murderer.

[cgrindley]

317. Yes it is

why won't people face facts? The average life expectancy is not 300 years old. It's in the 70's at the most (eg if you're born after 1960 or so). For anyone born in the 30's or 40's, the life expectancy is in the 60's.

35 = middle aged

50+ = OLD OLD OLD

[cigsandcoffee]

67. This guy executed those two in cold blood.

No doubt about it. He was pissed off, and offended at the brazen injustice of their crime. So he killed them for it. He will most likely be charged.

This is one of the risks people who burgle a house will face - pissed off people who have shotguns and may not act rationally.

A good rule of thumb to combat this possibility is to not rob houses or things that don't belong to you. Doing so makes you a total fucking scumbag anyway.

[derby378]

71. Look, I've been a victim of burglary and robbery, myself...

No one ever came up to me, pointed a gun in my face, and demanded my wallet. But my car has been broken into, my home was burglarized and vandalized when I was a kid, and small family heirlooms have been pilfered from me (which I later recovered).

We're supposed to be secure in our homes, so home burglary is especially onerous - a lot of people, especially women, feel violated if it happens to them.

One glaring example was when some neighbors of ours had their home ransacked. I forget how much was taken from their home, but they left a little handwritten note in the wife's panty drawer which simply read, "We'll be back." Can you imagine how shook up and fearful that poor woman was for a long time afterwards?

At the same time, if Horn had just stayed in his house, it looks like those plainclothes officers may have apprehended the burglars without any loss of life or property. Had those men actually attacked or menaced Horn, he would have been dead to rights. But from what I heard of that recording, he didn't even order the burglars to freeze or lie down or anything. His apparently rash judgment may well cost him a decade of freedom.

[John Kerry VonErich]

87. No, there was malice

If he's charged, it will be murder 1 where he will face the needle or life in prison. Knowing Texas, it will be looking at the needle.

[Paladin]

105. Don't Count On A Murder 1 Conviction

I promise you that if this makes it to trial, there will be people on the jury who want to pin a medal on the crazy old vigilante---just like some people on this thread want to. I wouldn't be surprised if he walks on this.....

[LisaL]

106. I have to agree. Especially considering this happened in Texas.

[John Kerry VonErich]

107. I never guaranteed on a conviction.

He will walk on this.

[qdemn7]

139. If it makes it trial?

Is right.....this happened in Harris County, which has the highest rate of Death Penalty convictions in the entire state. This guy will probably get no-billed by the Grand Jury.

[Guaranteed]

121. Aforethought. nt

[LisaL]

95. Well, of course, if they tried to break into his home, he would

have all the rights to shoot them. They weren't. On the tape, the 911 operator is trying to convince him to not go outside and shoot them, and he kept on saying he is gonna do it.
Frankly I don't see how self-defense argument is going to fly very well in this particular case, considering that 911 tape.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

209. We were burglarized years ago

Even though we weren't there at the time, when we got home, the house was a mess and things were stolen. It took a long time to feel "safe" again. I felt violated in some way - like my peace and safety had been destroyed. I was always so afraid someone would break into my house while I was there alone with the kids. If someone entered my house when I am home alone with my kids, I'm pretty sure I would shoot and ask questions later. If my kids aren't home, I'm pretty sure I'd feel like I had other options.

And if someone was in my "back" yard in the middle of the night, I'd fire a warning shot. If the person didn't leave, I don't know what I would do. I suppose it would depend on how scared I felt, and whether the person exited my yard.

That doesn't make a person judge and jury. That's DEFENSE.

[B Calm]

72. I feel this was cold blooded murder and I'm a gun loving liberal.

He shouldn't have took the law in his hands. He wasn't the victim.

[MiniMe]

81. We accuse W of being judge, jury, and executioner for the "terror suspects"

What this guy did is the same thing. America is supposed to be all about a fair trial by jury. We have reverted back to the wild, wild west.

[John Kerry VonErich]

86. Question of the day...

Would you rather have a shotgun or a tazer?

[derby378]

92. Good question...

I've heard too many stories about tasers. They're supposed to be non-lethal, but some people have actually died after being tasered. And then I've heard of people who were tasered but still managed to charge the police officer or whomever was wielding the taser. Then there's the fact that tasers, used improperly and with malice, can be portable torture devices.

A Mossberg 12-gauge, on the other hand, will stop virtually anyone and everyone in their tracks if they're about 5 feet away. But you have to be certain that you can live with the knowledge that you have taken someone's life, even though that person intended to do you harm.

[John Kerry VonErich]

108. Tasers are the lesser of 2 evils

I got a lot of flack for supporting a cop using a taser on here. But on this shooting, Horn was wrong on this, because I feel he lured the 2 on to his property so he can shoot. Tasers have a much lesser chance of fatallity.

[piedmont]

113. I still haven't seen a good explanation for how he "lured" them into approaching him.

If I had just burglarized a house and then saw a guy with a shotgun, I sure as hell wouldn't approach him.

[LisaL]

122. He was told by the 911 operator not to go outside.

He was safe in his house, unless they would have broken into his house, in which case he would have been perfectly justified if he shot them. Yet he went outside despite being told not to do it by the 911 operator.

[piedmont]

166. Hey, I'm with you on that. He shouldn't have gone outside. But you still didn't answer the question.

[LisaL]

279. I can come up with a number of theories as to how someone with

a gun can get people to come toward him, but all of it would be speculation on my part.

[John Kerry VonErich]

136. My theory was that he made sure that the two were seen clearly.

More than likely they were heading to Horn's house to intimidate him into not snitching. May not have heard it on tape, but it can be done physically like waving and such.

[piedmont]

163. If they were headed his way to intimidate him, then he'd have reason for self-defense. nt

[John Kerry VonErich]

175. Remember, he had a motive

He said he was gonna kill them, more than likely after that, he got their attention. That is entrapment.

[piedmont]

177. He had a SHOTGUN in his hand. There's no fucking way that's entrapment.

If he went out there with a SHOTGUN in his hand, and they approached him anyway, they knew damn well what they were getting into.

[BadgerLaw2010]

213. Which is why they were shot from behind, right?

[piedmont]

217. It's the other poster's assertion that they were "lured" in. Take it up with him. nt

[BadgerLaw2010]

224. You're the one positing they were heading towards him to intimidate him.

They were shot from behind. That doesn't mesh.

[piedmont]

226. No, I'm not. Read the damned thread. nt

[LisaL]

281. Now, if they weren't armed, and he had a shot gun, why would

they try and approach him?

[Lilith Velkor]

134. Shotgun, loaded with rock salt. n/t

[Dorian Gray]

89. They didn't receive punishment for the crime...

it was a horrible set of circumstances. Whether Horn was or wasn't too quick with the trigger, I can't judge. But, Ortiz was there, robbing the place. He is guilty of his crime. Of course he didn't deserve to die, but there are often unintended consequences to bad choices. He made a very bad choice. I feel sorry for his family and their loss. But, if he didn't choose to break into a home, he would still be here today.

[LisaL]

97. Well, if he didn't shoot them, and they were caught, then one

hope they would have been punished.

[varkam]

109. So, what you're implying then...

is better to shoot and kill them to make sure that they get punished as opposed to the possibility that they might get away? Sheesh.

[LisaL]

114. I am implying absolutely nothing of the sort.

[varkam]

115. I apologize. Re-reading the post you replied to and your reply I see I'm jumping the gun.

Sorry! :toast: Been a long day.

[Ikonoklast]

110. Nailed it.

One of the occupational hazards of being a criminal is the possibility that someone may take offense to your endeavors and seek to put a stop to them.

Violently, it would seem, in this case.

[Phillycat]

193. I agree. nt

[JanMichael]

116. Did anyone else catch how uneducated the caller/shooter sounded?

That "I've got a gun, and am gonna use it to protect us" mentality? Very uniquely American. Scary as hell.

[Guaranteed]

118. Yup. He thought he was Rambo. And he killed someone.

That was probably one of the most horrible things I've ever heard. He didn't even know these guys- yet he got it in his head that he was going to kill them. Then he did it, despite being given several warnings.

[SharkSquid]

167. Uniquely American

Or rural British/French

My aunt lives in "backwoods" France (whats left of it) and has a gun, shes 96.

[Guaranteed]

117. Just heard the tape, and that was nothing but first-degree murder.

The 911 operator told him not to leave the house over and over. He refused to listen- didn't want to listen. He kept talking about "defending himself" and mentioned that the law was changed, yet he sought out danger and simply shot the guys. Even said "You're dead" before he shot them.

That guy ought to be prosecuted and spend the rest of his life in jail. He had seven minutes to think, and even someone with their head on straight talking with him. He simply didn't want to act reasonably- he wanted to kill someone (the law was changed, after all).

[Guaranteed]

130. Here's the neighborhood from Google Earth:

Tract housing.

[Catherine Vincent]

133. That's how most suburbs are in Houston. nt

[sendero]

144. As one of the handful of DU "gun nuts"..

... I think this man committed murder and should serve time. Period.

[cgrindley]

149. Oh yeah, he murdered them, but they still deserve no sympathy

He was wrong, but I'm not sorry for these thugs. Not even a little.

[YankmeCrankme]

181. This mentality really surprises me at times.

Instead of killing them, what if they'd been arrested and the act of trial and jail jolted them to the point that they realized what their reckless behavior was doing? Especially, since one was a young father with a little baby. Maybe it would have been the act that matures him to realize his responsibility and he became a good father, husband and citizen. What if one or the both of them could have been rehabilitated?

I realize our jail/prison system isn't about rehabilitation anymore, just punishment, but what if...

Instead, we have a fatherless child, a mentally anguished shooter, a grieving wife.

Yeah, that worked out all around.

[piedmont]

186. I know there's always a possibility of someone turning their life around, but

the "father" had a criminal history and was on parole while committing yet another crime. Some dad.

[YankmeCrankme]

189. Well, I guess I just don't think his life is forfeit over a burglary.

Many people have come back from multiple arrests and convictions to straighten out their lives and you don't have to be a criminal to be a bad dad.

[cgrindley]

208. but if you are a criminal, you ARE a bad father

a criminal cannot be a good father. A lawless lifestyle is automatically child abuse in my books.

[wtmusic]

234. Black and white

You've never broken the law so you must be a good father. Always drive 55, do you?

Lawbreaker = Criminal

Punishment for Theft = Death

It would be so easy.

[SharkSquid]

262. Sometimes it is that simple

Thief = Criminal

Breaking and Entering = Criminal


In my house by forcible entry = assumtion of intention for bodily harm under the law.

[wtmusic]

280. All criminals are the same.

Your position is moronic, and is the same faulty logic that got us into Iraq (we can "assume" that Saddam "intended" to use weapons of mass destruction against us, so we are justified in invading a sovereign state for our own protection). :crazy:

Good call.

[SharkSquid]

306. All criminals are not the same

If people fail to leave when confronted with the threat of deadly force my assumption is that they intend further harm (why would they leave witnesses). If I did not have a weapon I would still likely attack them. If they have a deadly weapon of any sort, I immediately assume intent for harm

BECAUSE THEY ENTERED MY HOME WITH A DEADLY WEAPON...

and lets be logical instead of "moronic" as you so eloquently put it. Your "hypothetical" will never happen PARTICULARLY in Florida. If they are unarmed, 99.9999% chance that they will run when confronted. If they have a deadly weapon, what further indicator should I wait for, when they discharge the weapon into my stomach as they raise it?

I would say your comparison is faulty, Saddam was not in our country taking our monuments and stealing Wall Street. These crooks in your hypothetical are.

Good call indeed...

[Art_from_Ark]

301. So, what if the criminal were stealing to provide for his family

because he had been fired from his job and his unemployment benefits (if he had any) had run out and nobody would hire him?

I knew a guy once who was stealing eggs to supplement his minimum wage job ($3.25/hour at the time), because minimum wage just wasn't making ends meet for himself, his disabled wife, and small daughter, who were living in a trailer. He loved his daughter and would always talk about her.

[SharkSquid]

311. Why does anyone steal

Normally not for the fun of it.

To better their means.

Is a man stealing for his kids more justified than a guy stealing to keep himself from starving or to get his wife that car she needs?

Gotta draw the line somewhere.

[Hoof Hearted]

344. the fuckers at Enron and Tyco were "providing for their family". Did your buddy do break-ins?

Because if that's how he got the eggs then he was risking getting his ass waxed over some ova.

I worked for $3.25 an hour too. I also saved uneaten food off of diners plates at the restaurant where I worked. I went through a myriad of humiliations to make ends meet but I NEVER stooped to justifying theft.

[cgrindley]

207. Rehabilitation seldom works

I think we should return to a punishment-based penal system that exists to remove criminals from society for as long as possible. We've experimented with prison reform for going on 100 years and it simply isn't working. We need to have automated, single cell, solitary for people convicted of crimes. No more probation. No more parole.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

214. One was already on parole; no lesson learned the first time (or second? or third?)

that still doesn't mean they deserved to be shot under this set of circumstances.

[Bluebear]

261. 'I'm not sorry for these thugs. Not even a little.' ....I pity your cold heart.

[Marrah_G]

150. Well perhaps she can move on and find a decent partner to raise her child with

What chance would the kid have with a criminal and a thief as a father. Sorry to say this, but the child is better off.

The man who shot them was way out of line and should be prosecuted for murder, but I don't have any pity for this woman. If you marry and have children with a criminal then you ought to know that someday he might not come home. If anything I hope this woman can make a fresh start that includes making some better choices in her life.

[Phillycat]

194. I agree.

Somehow, though, I don't think "Diamond" is making the best choices possible in her life.

[Puglover]

346. I just read the article and I wonder how you gleaned

that from it. Why her name in quotes?

[BadgerLaw2010]

160. Based on the tape, this is two counts of first degree murder. Doesn't Texas execute people for that?

Absolutely no excuse for this.

[Mad_Dem_X]

162. He should have listened to the 911 operator

and stayed in his fuckin' house!

[Catherine Vincent]

168. Yep.

And he will regret that the rest of his life. I just wonder why he felt that he HAD to go out and shoot those guys? Wouldn't most people say in their house and be ready to shoot if they happen to come in the house?

[LanternWaste]

182. And people wonder why I don't like to be around...

And people wonder why I don't like to be around individuals with fire ams, regardless of whether they're the 'good guys' or the 'bad guys'.

Too many people, too many accidents, too many wannabe John Waynes hopped up on B war movies and Rush Limbaugh...

[mitchum]

183. That's an occupational hazard when one works as a thief

[LanternWaste]

190. Or a postman. Or a teacher. Or a student...

Or a postman. Or a teacher. Or a student...

[mitchum]

215. Or a strawman maker, eh?

I am a teacher, and apparently I have been negligent in my duties; I have never attempted to enter someone's home and steal from them. It's just so hard to keep up with all of the new regulations...

[LanternWaste]

225. Not as much of a strawman as you righteously make it out to be.

As there have been teachers who have gotten shot whilst on the job, one must include it among the risks. As there have been students who have been shot whilst at school... Not as much of a strawman as you righteously make it out to be.

[mitchum]

230. I think that my take was sardonic...

rather than righteous.
However, your attempt to equate the risks faced by criminals with the risks faced by those in lawful occupations seems to be a bit...well...uh...righteous. Okay, I believe you...you ARE a compassionate person.

[FyurFly]

192. dont steal and you wont get shot..easy

[B Calm]

199. Shooting someone in self defense is one thing, but killing someone for

stealing your neighbors JUNK is another! I'm sorry but this gun lover sees cold blooded murder and an old man taking the law into his own hands. I'll be damn surprised if he don't get a long jail sentence!

[book_worm]

195. 1) the guys weren't coming to his house 2) he did his duty and called the cops

he should have done what he was told and stayed inside his house and waited for the cops to come rather than going outside and playing Charles Bronson in DEATH WISH. In this case I think this guy wanted to shoot and kill some people and found this as an opportunity to do so.

[Matariki]

197. some kind of father and husband there...

breaking and entering.

[Tatiana]

198. Horn was wrong for killing the two guys - based on the phone call, he forced the confrontation.

Seems to me like he is guilty of manslaughter. However, I don't feel too much sympathy for any burglars either.

I am a gun owner. My apartment was once broken into and I've had to use my firearm. However, my intention was not to kill the man, simply to stop him from advancing (and I gave a clear warning before I fired). One shot to the thigh and I waited until the cops and ambulance arrived. And all the while, I kept wondering what would possess this man to go through the lengths (climbing rooftops, sneaking in through windows he could jimmy open) he did to rob someone. This was not the first time he'd done this. He'd already had a record for armed robbery.

I was angry. I felt violated for months afterward. I eventually moved out of the neighborhood, but I will never forget the fear I felt when I heard the scraping noise coming from the back window in the apartment and realized that the fool was actually going to break in. That said, I did not wish the man dead. But I also didn't think he had the right to violate my home. It wasn't so much the fact that the man stole "things." It was more the fact that he felt he could invade my space and help himself to the meager things I had managed to acquire through by own hard work.

With the way states like Florida and Texas are changing their laws, robbers are really risking their lives. Not everyone is a responsible gun owner and if this (and other similar stories) teaches anyone a lesson, it's to think twice before making the decision to resort to burglary of homeowners. Some people are going to shoot first and ask questions later (if at all). Sad, but I think this sort of thing is exactly what these laws mean to encourage. It's probably seen as a deterrent for robbery.

[KansDem]

200. It's too bad he didn't have a camcorder instead of a shotgun...

He could've recorded the whole incident, including the burglars and their vehicle, and then turned the tape over to police. No one would have been murdered and the only perps going to jail would be the actual burglars.

But when we have "hate and kill" speech on the national level being passed off as "public debate," we're going to see more tragedies of this kind.

[cgrindley]

206. So he could have been beaten to death on camera?

I don't believe in state-sponsored capital punishment, and I think that the old man was wrong to shoot, but I'm not sorry about what happened. Criminals shouldn't be out doing crimes.

[KansDem]

216. I imagine he could have used his camcorder from inside his house...

I was just thinking he might have been able to record the burglary on camera through a window. It sounds as if his house was close to the house being burglarized. I thought I read somewhere the perps came to withing 15 feet of his property? Anyway, the zoom lens could certainly have captured the likeness plus details about the perps' vehicle.

I'm not suggesting he get in their faces with the camcorder; that would be dangerous and stupid.

The shooter didn't have all the facts. What if the burglars turned out to be an estranged husband and friend breaking into his (former) house that his wife had the locks changed on to retrieve some items that belonged to him? Death penalty for a civil matter?

And don't tell me the above scenario is out-of-line. A few months after moving into our home 19 years ago, my wife went for a walk through the neighborhood wearing an old jacket and wool hat. When she was arriving home, the police pulled up in response to someone "strange" walking through the neighborhood. The police simply asked her a few questions and left, but what if the person who called the police decided to pull out his shotgun and confront her?

[piedmont]

221. Correction: they were ON his property, 15 feet from the door. nt

[KansDem]

228. My camcorder would have done a wonderful job taping them...

Turned over to the police, it would proved invaluable in bringing them to justice.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

203. How large was his property? Fifteen feet from the door may be

more menacing than that sounds. Fifteen feet from my door in my suburban neighborhood, and it would be murder to shoot those guys. Fifteen feet on a large piece of property with guys who seemed like they were coming after me? A warning first, but after that? I dunno.

If this guy didn't issue a warning, this is so, so wrong.

[B Calm]

250. So now the punishment for burglary is instant death?

[dysfunctional press]

286. it's not a punishment, so much as an occupational hazard.

and these guys knew that before they CHOSE to break the law.

[B Calm]

288. Was the murderer being threaten and he acted in self defense...NO

He killed human beings because they were stealing someone elses JUNK!

[dysfunctional press]

290. and now they won't be able to steal anyone else's..."junk".

and that is good.

[JVS]

294. It's up to the owner to decide if it's junk. Most junk is placed on the curb for easy removal.

[B Calm]

305. We are talking about human life vs stuff...

[Dr. Strange]

325. You're talking about human life vs stuff...

Some are talking about human life vs rights.

It may be "stuff" to you, but that doesn't mean you can come and take it away as you see fit. In a free society, I have the right to collect "stuff." Please respect my rights.

Having said that, I think the guy should do some time. But I'm not going to pretend that he's the only guilty party here.

[B Calm]

331. I never said the criminals didn't do anything wrong. All I'm saying

is the next door neighbor didn't have to take the law into his own hands. When he killed human beings, he committed a far worse crime. This is the kind of thing that erodes the right of citizens to own guns, I own guns and the last thing I want is the government taking them away because of idiots like this old man taking the law into his own hands when he wasn't doing it in self defense.

[JVS]

252. The burglar brought this upon himself

[WinkyDink]

260. If burglars now can get the death penalty, what should be done to their killer?

[SharkSquid]

267. Deadly force in defense of ones self and the defense of others n/t

[LostinVA]

276. Nobody had to be defended here

God, many of the replies on this thread are insane. This isn't even a gun rights/control issue. I'm anti-handgun, but not anti long gun, and I WOULD kill someone if they tried to harm me in my home. I WOULD defend someone who was being assaulted or harmed in any way. That isn't what happened here.

[Tejas]

353. 15 feet from his door

Facts will come out in the future.


---------------------------------------------------------
filed for posterity

"God, many of the replies on this thread are insane. This isn't even a gun rights/control issue. I'm anti-handgun, but not anti long gun, and I WOULD kill someone if they tried to harm me in my home. I WOULD defend someone who was being assaulted or harmed in any way. That isn't what happened here."

[dysfunctional press]

287. give him a medal.

maybe another scumbag burglar might think twice before choosing to break the law.

[Tejas]

335. and write a song...

http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/30255/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/30255/700/richmedia/I_SHOT_THE_BURGLERS.mp3

this just in: "Widow sues entire country of England"

[Hell Hath No Fury]

272. Imagine if I'd had a gun...

Around ten years ago I woke up to hear noises in my basement that made me get out of bed to check what was going on. I went downstairs and came across a young man, my brand new, still-in-the-box VCR in his arms. He had climbed an 8 foot fence and pried open a window to get in. We were face to face, maybe 15 feet between us.

I don't know who was more scared/freaked out -- him or me. I yelled at him to get the fuck out of my house and went tearing back upstairs, closing the door between the two levels and locking it. The police were called, and I waited for them with a baseball bat in my hands should my visitor feel the need to cause some trouble. By the time the cops arrived he had already jumped the fence and taken off on foot.

Now, according to the law in some states and some DUers I would have been perfectly within my right to blow the fucker off the face of the planet, had I a gun. For breaking into my home and stealing my VCR. But I couldn't have because I did (do) not own a firearm. And I am very glad I haven't had to live all these years with the pain of having shot someone to death over my VCR.

[LisaL]

278. I think you would have been justified in shooting him in every

state.

[bluestateguy]

302. My deepest sympathies go out to the owners of the house that was burglarized

How much is it going to cost for them to hire a contractor make the repairs to the house?

[Quantess]

304. Great role model for his infant son.

A father of a small baby, out burglarizing. That's class.

[tuckessee]

313. Odds are the widow is also an accomplice in her late husband's burglary enterprise. n/t

[Quantess]

318. Now they get to be the martyrs of their community.

Maybe one of these sympathetic DUers will take pity and invite her to burglarize their home?

[Tejas]

367. didn't take Quanell long... n/t

[LostinVA]

327. Disgusting -- you should be ashamed of yourself

[Judi Lynn]

328. Odd "idea." Apparently she would also be an adulterer, too, if her husband went out on her. n/t

[rocktivity]

329. "Diego Ortiz, Jr...will never take another picture with his dad again."

:puke:

..."I wish that he could have made it," sobbed Ortiz's widow, Diamond Morgan.
Made it out of the house with the loot he stole, you mean? Hopefully he found something nice for your in the baby.

"It's horrible," said Morgan. "He was so eager, so eager to shoot."
Not not as horrible as your husband being so eager to steal, but still...

...When Horn went outside, (his lawyer) says, the men were on Horn's property about 15 feet from his front door..."If you were afraid for your life, then why the hell did you come outside," said Morgan.
Uh--because he'd just watched them rob a house and they were now trespassing on HIS property?

:crazy:
rocknation

[mitchum]

389. "I wish that he could have made it" WTF???!!!

Diamond, honey...the dearly departed wasn't "working" as a fireman, coal miner, or fisherman.

[Hoof Hearted]

332. Her husband knew he could get killed but chose to steal anyway

and he was killed.

[Rex]

340. Oh bullshit, typical 'I was scared of the big black men' garbage.

He WANTED to kill someone! So...rot in Hell you murderer! Oh yeah...and...cry me a river. :eyes:

[SharkSquid]

348. Yeah his wife can cry me a river

I would be scared of that guy too, did you see those pics. I could have probably taken ortiz but Dejesus? no chance.

[Rex]

354. So stay in your house and call the police.

Let them do their job, no need to become a murderer. Unless that is what you want.

[SharkSquid]

356. I want to murder so badly I cna taste it

Thats why I bought a gun:sarcasm:

[SharkSquid]

347. Let just bring it all together....

Joe Horn shot two people who had robbed a house and it looks as is they were coming for his house when he went outside and warned them to stay away from his home, which seems like a logical thing to do.

If he shot them while they were fleeing (which the third shot may indicate), he is likely guilty of murder. I can tell you that often what everyone thinks is inherent racism is more, hey you dont belong in this area, it is clear by your looks. If I saw a guy like Mr Ortiz in my area I would know that he likely does not belong, I do like in a mostly white suburb but we have several black and hispanic families but all of them are professionals and people that I know and likely do not dress, style their hair or wear "bling" in the way that the perps in this case did, so yeah if I saw two thug looking guys like those two skulking around my neighbors house, my gun would be out on the counter.

These guys were brazen and had a hell of alot of gaul to rob a house in broad daylight. I doubt they were doing it to feed the family, if Mr. Ortiz were destitute, perhaps he should have been working on a weekday afternoon instead of robbing a house with his buddy. If his kid was hungry perhaps he should have cinsidered selling that bling in his ear, I bet you my left arm that those are real diamonds in the MJ earing. Maybe his wife should have bypassed her eyebrow-waxing or dye job to provide for her family.

I wish he could have made it to, I wish that there was not a culture of crime and I wish ones status in some circles was not determined by how much of a "thug" you are. But what do I know, I only get the pleasure of seeing the kids who get half a mind to at least try to get themselves out of that life and join the Navy and maybe get a damn education. My wife sees all the other ones.

[LostinVA]

350. Zero proof of what you state in your first paragraph

Actually, what we do know says the very opposite. He wanted to stop them from leaving, and told the dispatcher he was going to kill them. He clicked the damn safety into the phone.

I have lots of responsible gun owners in my family. I myself have been one. You and too many other posters are trying to make this black and white, and defend a murderer.

A murderer is a murderer, even if who he murders is a thief.

[SharkSquid]

352. I am going by what his lawyer says happened

I know that is biased, however it is a statement he made. I know what happened on the line and if you re-read my second paragraph, I quantify. I think he probably shot them as they fled, the police report will have to bear that out.

I am not defending his murder. I never said "Joe Horn was justified in this shooting" if you recieved that impression from anything I said, it was unintentional and I apologize.

[hlthe2b]

358. If anyone woul dhave told me that...

this many supposed "liberal/progressives" would be defending this rank vigilantism and totally unnecessary killing, which in my mind was absolutely murder, I would never have believed it. Never.

I'm totally depressed. We really are becoming an authoritarian, lawless, and inherently violent country.

[SharkSquid]

359. I do not defend his actions

Buts its all good, you can keep up your haughty attitude. You must live in a really safe neighborhood.

[hlthe2b]

360. snarf... yeah right...

Denver has no crime... Not like a serial rapist murderer who terrorized my neighborhood two years ago-, raped a grandmother and two of her young granddaughters, raped another owner of a popular pet store in the shop during business hours, kidnapped and nearly beat to death another women, and led me to literally walk smack into the middle of a swat team raid (complete with assault rifles) one Friday evening as I walked my dog across one of Denver's most well known parks.

And yes, I have moved frequently across the country and have been robbed in the past. I go everywhere after dark with my dog and either pepper spray or a personal taser, and a cell phone depending on my destination. I plan my trips after dark with safety in mind. Yes, it is a relatively nice area and I can go walk my dog after dark in a populated well lit central shopping/restaurant zone close to my residence, but it is urban Denver. I am cautious, but certainly not untouched by crime. I can tell you one thing. There is no property that I can imagine that would be worth it to me to kill over it. I could kill in self-defense or to protect someone I loved, but not over property.

[SharkSquid]

369. Kill, Kill, Kill

"I can tell you one thing. There is no property that I can imagine that would be worth it to me to kill over it."

Better watch how you use that taser then :)

[hlthe2b]

371. it is one of the ole consumer level Sharper Image ones

from ten years ago--Not the "mega death voltage" law enforcement versions released in recent years. Prior to the release of the latter models, there were no recorded fatalities and the consumer version was on the mass market for years (still is, I guess, but not through a high profile retailer, like Sharper Image).

The former, were designed to allow one to simply get away-- Not for longer term incapacitation, which ups the ante in terms of risk.

[SharkSquid]

378. Ive seen the old ones

They dont work so well on larger guys and men under 30. Just FYI.

[hlthe2b]

361. Listen to yourself: "You don't defend his actions but it is All good"

and I have a haughty attitude? Exactly how is it you are NOT defending his actions?

[Tejas]

362. Haughty is an understatement

You rant about lawless vigilantes in this country but come across as not wanting to blame criminals in any way whatsoever. You'd love to be first in line to throw the switch on Horn, you hate his guts, you hate his name...

You are so consumed with hatred that you can't see straight to even devote 1% of your anger towards the real problem...the 2 criminals that chose to also put themselves at risk. A risk that not only cost them their lives, but brought heartache and sorrow to their own loved ones.

Quit trying to take the easy way out. No amount of hatred towards Horn will ever erase the fact that were it not for 2 irresponsible lazy thieving cowardly pieces of society insisting on doing crime, that mother and child would not be in the position they are now.

[hlthe2b]

363. I am consumed with hatred.?!. Good Lord.. read your own post.

And, no, I neither hate Horn, nor would I "love to be first in line to throw the switch." I do not believe in the death penalty, but that is beside the point. I believe in the rule of law, not vigilantism. There is no excuse for what you are promoting. These two guys should have been imprisoned and they would have been, had Horn not decided to become their executioner. They burglared. He murdered. There is no moral equivalency no matter how hard you might try.

[Tejas]

364. My opinion of your and others apathy stands.

[hlthe2b]

365. I hope you get past your incredible fear... .

and can learn to enjoy life. Perhaps even to live and let live? Now, that's a concept.

[Tejas]

366. you mistake disdain of crime,

and intolerance for the apathy of others towards it, for fear?

[SharkSquid]

375. I have seen some of the shitbags my wife

defends, and most of them blame her for their going to jail (not their re-offense felonies), much like you blaming Horn %100 and eating up this sob story with his kids while refusing to address that is was this assholes choice to BREAK AND ENTER in Texas no less, does not get much dumber than that. And I do not live with any illusions on what would have happened to Horn if he told them to stop robbing and didnt have a gun or if they had a gun (move your dead)

[hlthe2b]

376. NO ONE HERE is defending the burglars. We are NOT defending

a vigilante who designated himself to be their judge, jury and on-the-spot executioner. He wasn't defending his own home from intruders. Had he been, there would not be this controversy.

Your violent retribution fantasies are become quite telling.

[SharkSquid]

380. Or if he had been designated as a protector of his neighbors house

Under TX Law, same thing applies.

If he is not lying and they did try and attack him as a "witness" he is justified.

I have no fantasies about retribution, I do have a plan though. My wife has an occupation which required such planning.

BTW

"Your violent retribution fantasies are become quite telling."

Exhibit C of your haughty attitude.

[hlthe2b]

381. I hope that plan includes funds for a good lawyer...

You just might need one...

[SharkSquid]

383. I likely wont need one in fact.

If my house is broken into or my wife threatened I am perfectly and clearly justified under FL Law.

Also, my wife IS a lawyer and all of our friends are lawyers, I think we are covered.

Thank you for you concern though.

But I am quite clear on the law and am not some bat-shit crazy old guy in TX, Thank you.

[hlthe2b]

384. I agree you won't need one under the scenario you list...

But, you seem to wish to extend it to that of the "bat-shit" crazy old guy" (see, we do agree on something ;-)) in TX. I can assure you that you will need a lawyer in that case (and you better hope the jury is stacked with similar "bat-shit crazy old guys from TX."

[SharkSquid]

385. I know I am only trying to make clear

That this idiot may have thought he was justified because he was closer to legality than you think.

[SharkSquid]

373. There is an awful fine line when talking about the rule of law

If they made any sort of move for him = Justified under "rule of law"

If the neighbor had told ol' Joe to watch his house = Justified under the rule of law.


Texas is a wierd state.

[SharkSquid]

372. Easy way out, so true...

"Quit trying to take the easy way out. No amount of hatred towards Horn will ever erase the fact that were it not for 2 irresponsible lazy thieving cowardly pieces of society insisting on doing crime, that mother and child would not be in the position they are now."

Amen, Happy post turkey day T.

[SharkSquid]

370. If you read my posts

I have said that if he shot these people as they ran he was in the wrong and should face trial for murder.

The haughty attitude of those who say that if someone breaks into my home and starts messing with my shit WHILE I AM THERE, I need to wait until they actually swing a crowbar at me before i can discharge my weapon. Thos are the haughty comment (example).

[hlthe2b]

374. That is not the argument, rather it is YOUR straw man...

The issue at hand is a man going out after signaling his intent to shoot suspect burglars of a neighboring residence. He was ordered not to by 911 police staff. No one was breaking into his home. HE WENT OUT TO KILL THEM over property and not even his own. Haughty, indeed? :eyes:

How about a little honesty, Shark?

[SharkSquid]

377. I dont think that this rises to the level of staw man

Have you been following this board and observing the path of the argument or are you just running in here at the end?

Haughty and arrogant people roll their eyes quite frequently BTW :)

[hlthe2b]

379. Funny, those who use straw man arguments never do...

[SharkSquid]

382. Funny indeed

I endeavor very much to avoid going onto tangets (which I think that you read as straw man)

I also try to avoid the shifting of the debate to far from the OP, which has also happened on this thread.

But you wouldnt know about that would you, you just want to jump in here and snipe away.

I do not intentionally bring an easy to defeat argument point to distract the debate.

[timtom]

386. I left all weapons behind

when I left the Marine Corps in 1966.

The arguments on both sides of this issue each have some merit.

But, as an existentialist I have to ask the question, What would have happened if Ortiz hadn't gone out that day and allowed himself to become embroiled in a burglary?

With choices come consequences -- life-altering consequences.

Having said this, I still never intend to own a gun.