13 yr old Commits Suicide After Harrassed by Adults on MySpace

[TorchTheWitch]

http://suburbanjournals.stltoday.com/articles/2007/11/11/news/sj2tn20071110-1111stc_pokin_1.ii1.txt
Later that day, Ron opened his daughter's MySpace account and viewed what he believes to be the final message Megan saw - one the FBI would be unable to retrieve from the hard drive.

It was from Josh and, according to Ron's best recollection, it said, "Everybody in O'Fallon knows how you are. You are a bad person and everybody hates you. Have a shitty rest of your life. The world would be a better place without you."

<snip>

According to Tina, Megan had gone on vacations with this family. They knew how she struggled with depression, that she took medication.

"I know that they did not physically come up to our house and tie a belt around her neck," Tina says. "But when adults are involved and continue to screw with a 13-year-old - with or without mental problems - it is absolutely vile.

"She wanted to get Megan to feel like she was liked by a boy and let everyone know this was a false MySpace and have everyone laugh at her."



What this woman did to this child is disgusting beyond belief. It's even more disgusting that after Megan killed herself she told everyone who knew that she had been tormenting Megan online not to say anything to Megan's parents and continued to act as friends toward the parents until another neighbor told them what really happened. The woman also feels no remorse whatsoever.

:grr:

[MADem]

1. Ghastly. What bastards. It's an argument for serious computer monitoring, certainly, when kids are

online.

It does not appear that there will be criminal charges filed in connection with Megan's death.

"We did not have a charge to fit it," McGuire says. "I don't know that anybody can sit down and say, 'This is why this young girl took her life.'"

The Meiers say the matter also was investigated by the FBI, which analyzed the family computer and conducted interviews. Ron said a stumbling block is that the FBI was unable to retrieve the electronic messages from Megan's final day, including that final message that only Ron saw.

The Meiers do not plan to file a civil lawsuit. Here's what they want: They want the law changed, state or federal, so that what happened to Megan - at the hands of an adult - is a crime.

[TorchTheWitch]

2. I can't understand why they think there's no charge that fits!

What about child abuse? child endangerment? reckless endangerment? harrassment? There's got to be something. The woman even admitted her role to LE.

[aquart]

6. Try shunning.

[Suich]

8. That works for me.

It might happen now that the story is out. I can't imagine anyone wanting to be anywhere near her.

[MADem]

7. You have the right to confront your accuser. There's the rub.

The person who was harrassed is dead. The parents can't sue "on her behalf." They've been victimized, but they aren't the victim.

Speech isn't a weapon. "You're ugly and everyone hates you" might be mean, but it isn't a gun or a knife.

A half awake lawyer could swat that away.

What the family should do is SELL THEIR STORY to HOLLYWOOD, and make sure that the movie has characters that closely resemble the neighbors both physically and in terms of their speeach patterns. Then, they can go on Oprah and elsewhere, and essentially HUMILIATE their neighbors by retelling the story to a large audience of family-types.

They could take the money they make, and donate it to a related charity, or start one up to focus on this issue themselves.

Shaming the bastards is the only real recourse they have. I hope they take that route--sell the story, raise awareness. It's probably the most effective method.

[DemBones DemBones]

18. That is a good idea, especially since kids would see it

and not be so trusting of people online. You can meet a lot of nice people online but you can also meet some who are quite twisted and want to play mind games. That makes it dangerous for kids, especially young teenagers, unless they have pretty much perfect lives and loads of self-esteem.

Bullying at such lengths is a truly nasty tactic used by truly nasty people. Kids can be devastated by a mildly unkind comment at school, but to pretend to be a boy who likes a lonely, depressed girl and then destroy her illusions so brutally goes way beyond an unkind or even cruel comment.

The person or persons who were involved in that were far sicker than Megan.

They are real life "Heathers."

[JNelson6563]

19. Amen DemBones.

Such cruelty is inexcusable. I still have a son going through the difficult teenage years. He has suffered one heartbreak and helped a pal or two through their own. My own heart broke for these kids when I saw how they felt, I cannot imagine EVER being the one to have inflicted such pain.

Your choice of word, "Heathers", is perfect. It's a shame the world is full of 'em.

Julie

[Dorian Gray]

29. I think that the neighbors

have already been outed on blog. They are shamed within their communities.

[proud2BlibKansan]

44. Is there a link to that blog?

I would love to know who these people are.

[Dorian Gray]

63. There was another topic in GD today

Here's the thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2301526


and here's the blog a poster posted:

http://hitsusa.com/blog/317/megan-meier-suicide /


I don't know how legit this is, just that it was addressed in another topic. And this is a truly awful story.

[MADem]

169. Time to take it NATIONALLY....see how that shoe fits on that other foot! nt

[AngryAmish]

58. Her parents can sue on her behalf

Otherwise there would be no lawsuit for wrongful death under any circumstances.

First is the survival action. That is for losses (including pain and suffering) that happen before the death. The proceeds would flow into her estate, which go to the parents presumably.

Second, there is damages for the wrongful death itself. It varies by state, but her parents, siblings, etc. sue for grief and pecuniary losses (including loss of society - missed value of having someone around for advice, helpfulness etc). In Illinois there is a presumption of pecuniary loss when a child, parent or sibling is wrongfully killed.

Right to confront your accuser is a constitutional right pertaining to criminal law. I'm not sure you understand how it works. In a murder, reckless homicide, etc. the person is dead but a person can still be convicted of the crimes. Here is how it works: Someone says you committed a crime. You have the right to cross examine the person who says you did the crime.

[MADem]

168. I still say speech, no matter how odious, can't be criminalized.

Otherwise, we'd see a rash of "You hurt my feelings" lawsuits.

I think the people that did this to that girl are bastards. I think shaming them through publicizing what they did is the best course of action.

[mrbluto]

224. Please read post "31. I Second That"

My sense is that "shaming" or "shunning" might be tools to use in such an instance (hopefully before someone dies), but I'm worried about the implications and possible abuse of such a tool.

How would should the sanctions of "shaming" and "shunning" be handled to avoid abuse?

Any ideas?

[MADem]

226. Upthread, I suggested the victim's family sell their story.

A TV or theater film that painted the neighbors in a lousy light would go a long way in the Shaming/Shunning department.

It's their life story, so they can sell it--even if the names are changed to protect the guilty, they can make them close enough so that the point is taken by anyone who knows the family.

[mrbluto]

229. Still have apprehensions about mis-use.

Ever hear the story about the guy, totally innocent, that looked like a guy on "America's Most Wanted"?

People kept reporting him, wouldn't confront him to ask - police even drew down on him once.

Seems like it could get messy.

[MADem]

230. There was a woman that happened to. She thought it was hysterical. I am talking about a

"Made For TV" or film MOVIE--where you have famous actors play the roles.

Tell the story. From the birth of the kid to her death and the divorce of the parents. Maybe add a little drama, have the father (played by a younger Clint Eastwood type) go around and murder everyone responsible for the death of the child, or something.

You could do all sorts of treatments of this story--straight facts, cautionary tale, a just desserts situation (bad things end up happening to the bad people), revenge-horror movie...you name it.

Stephen King could take this situation and do it up in a big way.

I'm not suggesting a documentary.

[mrbluto]

231. What I'm fishing for

So what I'm fishing for, supposing "shaming" becomes a recognized, systematically applied, tool of justice, is people's take on this scenario:

... imagine that the current administration, or one like it, gets it's hands on such a system. An administration that had the Social Security administration advocate it's own dissolution and had the Public Broadcasting Corp. waste it's own money to investigate Bill Moyers in an effort to prove he's got a leftward bias and to justify shunning him.

Anytime you think of a new power for our government you must, no matter how distasteful the exercise, consider "What Would a Cheney Do" once they had the chance.

In a world where people can say whatever they want on a webpage and what they say is available with a bit of googling this sort of issue is going to crop up more and more.

I'm not for needless regulation, but democrats should work out a stance before it totally hits the fan.

[MADem]

233. You can't say false things about people. You're subject to libel charges in that case,

if they rise to a level where you can prove harm. Carol Burnett got a nice payday from the Enquirer when they lied about her.

However, this situation seems to be more in the area of 'opinion.' The old "I think you are this, that and the other, and the world would be better off without you" type deal. Those 'slut' assertions might be evidence of 'harm' but it all depends on the meaning of the term in youthful vernacular, and it also depends on if the girl actually was 'slutty' in the teen definition of the word.

I don't advocate much government interference. There might be an argument for cyber-bullying legislation, but maybe not, too. It would be worth having some discussions about it to get input from across the spectrum, certainly.

I advocate that they use the marketplace to 'fuck' their neighbors, in essence. Get ahold of an Oliver Stone and let him go to town on this story.

[no_hypocrisy]

106. A criminal prosecution AND a civil suit could be pursued.

The prosecutor steps into the victim's shoes and seeks justice for the crime(s) committed. I can't remember the name of this crime but it's along the lines of you can't induce someone to commit suicide when that result is predictable. It's tantamont to be an accessory to murder in some states. The victimizers knew she was on medication and suffered from depression, hence the notice.

The parents of this child victim CAN sue as the ESTATE of the deceased child. I'm thinking intentional infliction of emotional distress as well as wrongful death (one's actions led to the death of the plaintiff) which would include pain and suffering, loss of consortium, future benefits, etc.

[MADem]

167. I honestly don't think they'd prevail. I think First Amendment beats all. NT

[Guaranteed]

197. Uhhh. There are so many things wrongs with what you just said, I don't

know where to start.

Basically, the whole thing is wrong, from your use of the right to confrontation to the parents not being able to sue to speech not being a weapon.

[MADem]

203. Well, "You're Wrong" isn't proof of a damn thing, save your opinion.

A few cites, maybe, to back up your assertions, might be helpful.

Let's see--Right to confront your accuser--isn't that the Sixth Amendment? The 14th for the due process bit? Is there a 'dying declaration'--a suicide note or video, perhaps--to get around that bit? Is a cause/effect established? Where's the 'proof' that the post 'caused' the death?

Could it be that her mom told her to clean her room, and THAT set her off?

And if the charge is MURDER, or manslaughter, voluntary or involuntary, well, where's the prosecutor? They'd be the one's doing the 'accusing.'

Why, the prosecutor is saying "There's no charges that fit."

What charges do the parents throw down against the people down the street? "Being mean on the internet" isn't a crime. The cop in this link has it right--you don't want those insults, don't post: http://www.hgazette.com/cnhins/technology/cnhinstechnology_story_239164925.html

Speech is protected--that's the First Amendment. If I call you ugly and you kill yourself, that's not my fault, legally speaking. Even if I know you're on medication. It's certainly not a nice thing to do, but there's "no law that fits."


Yeah, I don't know where to start either. ....

[Guaranteed]

204. Well, to start with, the dead girl isn't accusing anyone of anything.

It's the girl's parents. The right to confrontation- in a criminal charge- would apply to them, not the dead girl. The parents would show up and testify at the trial, I am sure. There is no confrontation issue- you're misapplying the concept.

The hearsay rule would come into the picture with any of the emails written to the girl. But they would be admissible under the party admission exception.

Further, the murder theory would revolve around the intent of the people harassing the girl, not the cause. As I've said in other posts, if their intent in engaging in their conduct truly was that the girl kill herself, they could very well be brought up on murder charges. Where intent is established, cause-in-fact can be very attenuated in a criminal case- the conduct can be far removed from the death itself, the required connection reduced to near zero. And the question of proximate cause would revolve around public policy- do we want to allow people to attempt to kill others by harassing them to the point where they want to kill themselves? I would answer that in the negative- it would be against public policy, and proximate cause would be satisfied. Witness the anger expressed at these people on this thread- their behavior is outrageous. That would go directly to proximate cause.

If what the father says about the last email is true- that they told the girl that the world would be better off without her- then there is certainly evidence that they intended to cause her death. As in the above analysis, in such a case they could be brought up on murder charges, however removed their conduct was from her death.

[MADem]

206. What will they CHARGE them with?

The DA has said "There is NO CHARGE that fits."

It's a long leap to suggest that "You're UGLY and the world would be better off without you" was going to come out the other end as "I want you DEAD."

Which is why the DA said "There is no charge that fits."

Where's the PROOF, as I said. There is no proof of 'intent.' The intent was to 'fuck with' the kid. That's not illegal.

If they could even get into court--and that's a long shot.

If I say, like that bozo down the street did, that the world would be better off without you, that's unkind (not true, either BTW) but it is NOT a threat. It is an OBSERVATION. It's speech. Cruel speech, mean speech, thoughtless speech, but it is still protected. It isn't "I want you DEAD and I'm gonna have my WAY!!! Prepare to die!!!" or "I am going to come after you and ensure that you no longer walk the earth." It's just a mean, unkind OBSERVATION, along the lines of "That shirt doesn't go with that tie" only designed to hurt feelings more deeply.

Case dismissed.

There is no law against cyber-bullying. That's what the DA is saying. The DA is right.

[Guaranteed]

209. The DA might be mistaken. Like I said elsewhere, he should

be looking into whether these people were trying to kill this girl. There is already evidence of that intent., and if there is any more, they could be charged with 1st degree murder.

The DA is thinking like you, in terms of cause instead of intent. But intent is the core of criminal law.

[LisaL]

212. How do you come up with the idea that these people

might have been trying to kill this girl?
This is the quote from the OP article.
"We did not have a charge to fit it," McGuire says. "I don't know that anybody can sit down and say, 'This is why this young girl took her life.'"
Even policeman admits there is no way to even pin point as to why this girl killed herself. First degree murder? Give me a break.

[Guaranteed]

213. The story the parents tell pretty clearly points to her suicide

being a reaction to being tricked into liking a fictitious person, and subsequently receiving nasty email.

You keep going back to what the DA is saying, but like I said, he very well might be mistaken. Maybe he's not that good of a lawyer. He should be looking into what these people were trying to do to this girl by harassing her. "I don't know that anybody can sit down and say, 'This is why this young girl took her life.'" Again, that is a narrow-minded, cause-centered approach to the case, when he should be looking at intent.

[LisaL]

215. The policeman might be mistaken, but you are not?

With your first degree murder suggestions? It's ridiculous to even suggest this somehow could be a first degree murder.
And I've read the story told by her parents, and it's not clear to me as to how you can even say the hoax was a direct cause of this girl killing herself.

[Guaranteed]

218. You can't see how someone might be charged with murder if

they INTENDED a person's death, took action toward that end, with the result being the death of that person, through a loose- but present- causal connection?

Let me think of an example for you. Let's say someone REALLY wants a particular person dead, but doesn't have the courage to do it themselves. They know the person lives alone, with a lot of dogs, in a house, and that the dogs and the house are all the person cares about in the world. The person then goes and burns down the house, with the dogs in it, killing them all, hoping that such a devastating blow to the person will result in the person's suicide. After finding out about their loss, the person becomes so emotionally distraught that they do, in fact, kill themselves. Which is what the arsonist intended all along.

You don't think that that is sufficient for a murder charge?

I can tell you this- the law says otherwise.

It's the INTENT that matters- the cause, while it needs to be there on some level, is not nearly as important where intent is established.

[LisaL]

220. Oh please. You are coming up with some strange scenarios.

Dogs? Arson? And frankly if intent matters, where is any evidence this family ever intended for the girl to kill herself?
And if a person kills him or herself, I have a problem with trying to say someone is responsible for that if they made that person upset. What if a kid kills him or herself over a bad grade? Should the teacher who gave him or her this bad grade then be charged? What if there is a real break up? Should the person who broke up with someone else be charged? There could be many reasons over which teenagers kill themselves. Usually, at least on the surface, it's because they are upset over something.

[Guaranteed]

221. You're totally not understanding the meaning of "intent."

You need to think about what I'm saying to you.

No, a teacher who gave a student a bad grade, resulting in the student's suicide, would not be guilty of or charged with murder- because the teacher didn't INTEND that the student kill themselves. The required mens rea is not there. They were just doing their job, not trying to kill anyone.

Now, if the teacher knew that the student really cared about the grade while wanting the student dead, and gave the student a horrible grade in an attempt to get the student to kill himself, the teacher could be charged with murder if the student actually did it. Again, the teacher's intent is there, in the scenario, and that is what is most important. The cause-in-fact of the student's death can be very loosely related to the teacher's conduct- that's okay, the court will "fill in" the necessary cause when the fact that the teacher WANTED the student to kill himself, and took steps toward that end, is established, as long as there is any causal connection at all. And there is a causal connection, while much looser than normal murder charges.

It's INTENT-based. That's what I'm trying to tell you.


Some evidence of intent is in the Dad's report of the email he saw- the people apparently told the girl that "the world would be better off without you."

[LisaL]

223. This alleged message of world be better off without you was

never retrieved. And if somebody actually send that message, would you have any idea as to who send it? There were a number of people apparently sending messages, including other teenage girls. If it was never recovered, then obviously it would be impossible to trace as to who send it.
As for your claims about intent and how people could be charged with murder, do you have actual links as to legal precedents for this, or did you just came up with it all on your own?

[MADem]

217. The thing is, there's no clear evidence of their intent at all. It appears

that they just wanted to mess with her, because of a tiff between the girl and another youngster.

Intending to be mean, to humiliate, to make fun of someone, like it or not, is NOT a crime. It just isn't. Absent a "I'm gonna do you in" statement, they don't have a leg to stand on.

I still think my idea--sell that story to TV or film--is the best way to get back at them.

They just aren't going to prevail in court.

[Guaranteed]

219. There is some evidence of the necessary intent, and if the DA investigated

he could find more. That's why I'm saying he needs to investigate.

[MADem]

222. The FBI investigated.

Later that day, Ron opened his daughter's MySpace account and viewed what he believes to be the final message Megan saw - one the FBI would be unable to retrieve from the hard drive.

It was from Josh and, according to Ron's best recollection, it said, "Everybody in O'Fallon knows how you are. You are a bad person and everybody hates you. Have a shitty rest of your life. The world would be a better place without you."

....It does not appear that there will be criminal charges filed in connection with Megan's death.

"We did not have a charge to fit it," McGuire says. "I don't know that anybody can sit down and say, 'This is why this young girl took her life.'"

The Meiers say the matter also was investigated by the FBI, which analyzed the family computer and conducted interviews. Ron said a stumbling block is that the FBI was unable to retrieve the electronic messages from Megan's final day, including that final message that only Ron saw.

The Meiers do not plan to file a civil lawsuit. Here's what they want: They want the law changed, state or federal, so that what happened to Megan - at the hands of an adult - is a crime.

[Az]

10. The police report does not reflect abuse on her part

It claims she created the account to find out what Megan was saying about her daughter. She also states that the account was hacked at some point. Whether to believe her or not is another question. But based on the information we have we cannot determine what her roll in Megan's suicide was.

Add to this the fact that she was on antidepressants. And one of the side effects of some antidepressants is an increased tendency to commit suicide. And this is significantly increased in the case of teens.

We do not know what happened. Trial by media is not the way to do things and is not the way to get at the truth.

[Darth_Kitten]

57. You don't taunt depressed human beings......

it's like taunting bridge jumpers to "Jump"....same sick, unfeeling mentality. :(

I think this was so cold-blooded, at a moral level. So PLANNED and deliberate.
And this disgusting family is sad only because their football table was destroyed? sick sick sick. :mad:

[proud2BlibKansan]

43. Sounds like more of a civil case than a criminal one to me

I am not an attorney though :shrug:

[NashVegas]

25. Wouldn't MySpace Have a Back-Up?

Or do messages have to stay up for a certain amount of time?


Furthermore: if Megan didn't delete all of the messages, they'd still be on her part of the database, complete with IDs.

Most database systems that handle secure operations and messaging and such keep track of the IPs that login to accounts, and of course there are log files that show gets/posts by IP. If there is something to investigate, the means are most likely there.

[MADem]

172. I'm afraid I know nothing about that crap atall!! nt

[orleans]

3. absolutely tragic. n/t

[Indi Guy]

4. Humiliation is worse than death for many of us humans...

I'm not trying to spin this; but this IMO this is why Cheney's "in your face" paranoia is so dangerous.

There was not one suicide bomber on record in Iraq before Cheney's war of choice.

The children of desperation must be heard.

[lancer78]

228. Yeah, but people

like Dick and * and the mother and daughter in this case have no shame.

[lvx35]

5. Its flagrant child abuse. I can't believe they can't get some kind of conviction.

And if they can't, everybody should know who this woman is, so we can all commit the same non-crimes against her.

[Az]

9. Careful with this story

Trial by media is seldom the way to get justice or truth. Been reading this one as a result of the other thread and the reporting is messy. There is room to doubt what transpired.

The only message that in any way suggests Megan kill herself cannot be found and was only read by her father.

There was a history of hacking on Myspace (a password stealing scam) during the time this issue took place and they do in fact say the account was hacked in the police report.

We do not know what happened yet. This is why we have trials and court rooms. Innocent until proven guilty means something to me. We simply don't know enough about this case yet to conclude anything. And we could create another innocent victim if we create a mob hounding those involved.

[undergroundpanther]

13. Verbal abuse can drive a person to suicide

Cultural protection and sanction of verbal abuse must end.

And it begins with each person who is NOT a bully,not tolerating verbal abuse happening around you and not participating in it,not speaking it out of your mouth,by not by standing while you hear it and no longer failing to intervene to force the bully to quit, or at least destroying the destructive 'attachment' between the bully and the target..by building up the target with acceptance ,emotional support and defending the target when the bully does his shit-talk to negate what the bully wounds.

[TorchTheWitch]

17. Who says it was hacked?

The police report does NOT say it was hacked. The portion of the police report that was in the article is the PERPATRATOR's account of what happened and not even she says it was hacked...

http://stcharlesjournal.stltoday.com/articles/2007/11/10/news/sj2tn20071110-1111stc_pokin_1.ii1.txt
The police report - without using the mother's name - states:

"(She) stated in the months leading up Meier's daughter's suicide, she instigated and monitored a 'my space' account which was created for the sole purpose of communicating with Meier's daughter.

"(She) said she, with the help of temporary employee named ------ constructed a profile of 'good looking' male on 'my space' in order to 'find out what Megan (Meier's daughter) was saying on-line' about her daughter. (She) explained the communication between the fake male profile and Megan was aimed at gaining Megan's confidence and finding out what Megan felt about her daughter and other people.

"(She) stated she, her daughter and (the temporary employee) all typed, read and monitored the communication between the fake male profile and Megan …..

"According to (her) 'somehow' other 'my space' users were able to access the fake male profile and Megan found out she had been duped. (She) stated she knew 'arguments' had broken out between Megan and others on 'my space.' (She) felt this incident contributed to Megan's suicide, but she did not feel 'as guilty' because at the funeral she found out 'Megan had tried to commit suicide before.'"

The daughter of the neighbor had the password, her own daughter had it, the employee of the woman had it, and all of these people she gave the password to and ENCOURAGED them to write what they did. Who knows who else she gave the password to and encouraged to write those things? She had to have known what was written the day Megan killed herself to allege it was 'somehow' other people on MySpace. It was her idea, she set it up, she monitored it, she herself was involved in what was said, she encouraged her own daughter and the daughter of a neighbor and her employee to say things to Megan and gave them the password. She lied when she claimed that her account of what happened in the police report is "incorrect" and that she attempted to "correct" it because the police say she did no such thing. She also contacted the neighbor and told her not to say anything to Megan's parents about the hoax she perpetrated and no doubt said the same to others. She pretended for a long time that she had nothing to do with any of this and pretended to continue being friends with Megan's parents. It wasn't until the neighbor told Megan's parents what the perp did that the perp ever breathed a word of the hoax to anyone who wasn't also involved (at HER instigation I might add).

As for the "hacking" that MySpace experienced, that has nothing to do with what people were writing to Megan... it was merely the phishing for passwords in the attempt to steal ID's. The phishing was the usual advertisement messages, which Megan would not have even gotten because her MySpace was set to private, and her mother had to approve all requests to be added as a 'friend'.

Face it, that evil woman did this on purpose and tried to cover it up... and she's still trying.

[NashVegas]

26. The Girl Who Wrote the Note Admits It In the Story

The single mother, for this story, requested that her name not be used. She said her daughter, who had carpooled with the family that was involved in creating the phony MySpace account, had the password to the Josh Evans account and had sent one message - the one Megan received (and later retrieved off the hard drive) the night before she took her life.

It's about 1/3-1/2 way down.

[LisaL]

174. I am completely confused as to what note would that be, considering

the article also claims the message that Megan's father claims to have seen was never recovered.

[October]

192. Yes...but...

While the message cannot be retrieved and was only seen by the father -- the single mother claims her daughter wrote it. She also claims her daughter was involved with that "family down the street" and this whole charade. She feels guilty, the single mom said.

[LisaL]

202. The single mother claims her daughter wrote some message.

I don't think it's the specific message that was allegedly seen by the father but never recovered.

[mrbluto]

31. I Second That

The allegations are serious, but we all need to be careful about how we respond.

Given a proven case of this sort of harassment I feel, that in addition to criminal punishment, that public disclosure, even the use of community resources, to publicize what happened might not only be defensible, but also the most effective means to punish what should be a crime. (if it isn't already)

Were it not for three things.

1.) there is a teenage girl involved (Megan's ex-friend)
2.) the allegations are not proven to me beyond a reasonable doubt

and...

3.) we might be handing yet another tool to people who will use it in bad faith

We could go round and round the mulberry bush on the first two points, but I'd like to focus this post on the third point.

Imagine that our society developed some policy and practice regarding "shaming" and then funded it. Presume it works and tax cheats, libelers, even corporate scoff-laws find themselves spanked by a concerted and public airing of their crimes.

How long before corporations, tired of getting pilloried, gain regulatory capture of such a system and ensure it only gets applied to "little people"?

Now you have a system where we're all paying taxes into a system that is only used to defame individuals and small fry organizations. And their defamation is credited by the government, in effect by "we the people".

So maybe some good still would occur; everyone learns about the bad auto repair chain, the malpracticing dentist doesn't get to jump from region to region avoiding a bad reputation.

Now imagine that the current administration, or one like it, gets it's hands on such a system. An administration that had the Social Security administration advocate it's own dissolution and had the Public Broadcasting Corp. waste it's own money to investigate Bill Moyers in an effort to prove he's got a leftward bias and to justify shunning him.

Anytime you think of a new power for our government you must, no matter how distasteful the exercise, consider "What Would a Cheney Do" once they had the chance.

So, what'd I'd like to hear back is how could we have such a program or tool (I think it would work more efficiently than slap on the wrist corporate fines) while ensuring there are the checks and balances necessary for it to resist abuse?

I'm genuinely not sure whether it's possible.

[Midlodemocrat]

33. Any 'adult' who would create an account

solely to torment a child is seriously fucked up and needs to go to prison. Lori Drew created an account specifically to target this child and initiated contact with her to torment her.

She's beyond vile. Frankly, as opposed to the DP as I am, I am reconsidering it for this POS.

[proud2BlibKansan]

46. Who is Lori Drew?

Is that the woman's name?

[tammywammy]

48. Yes, Lori Drew is the one that harrassed Megan

[proud2BlibKansan]

51. Thanks, if I had kept reading the thread before I asked the question

I would have figured that out. I also found a link to Lori's address, etc. No amount of torment is too much for this vile woman. Megan's parents say in the article they just want the Drews to move. Well maybe if enough people contact them, they will move.

[tammywammy]

54. You know, I've realized in the last month or so

That there are just some people that I will never understand. The Drew's are those kind of people. How can someone do that to a child? She was just a child! I'm not overtly religious, but there's a special place in hell for people like this. I hope they live the rest of their lives with the guilt and knowledge that they caused a 13 year old girl to kill herself. I really hope that this haunts them forever. They should be so ashamed of their actions. And I feel sorry for their own daughter that's being raised with such vile and horrible parents. What kind of message did this send to her? That it's okay to bully your friends?

This whole thing is just disgusting, just disgusting.

[mrbluto]

49. Sloppy thinking on display.

This I might agree with:

Any 'adult' who would create an account solely to torment a child is seriously fucked up and needs to go to prison.

This is where you frighten me:

Lori Drew created an account specifically to target this child and initiated contact with her to torment her.

She's beyond vile. Frankly, as opposed to the DP as I am, I am reconsidering it for this POS.

Really? You know this? You've personally met this person? You can assert that "Lori Drew created an account specifically to target this child..." without reservation? You know this?

Of course you do.

Because that's the only way it's justifiable for any thinking, honest person to go on to say she's "beyond vile", a "POS", and needs to go to prison.

The difference between saying "Who ever did this..." and "Lori Drew" is not insignificant. It hints at the difference between a working rule of law and the mentality that complains that "all this judge, lawyers and trial crap keeps us from putting the evil-doers in jail." (or waterboarding them all.)

The way you and others seem to often get wound-up on the punishment part of these stories and so rarely the solution effort makes me wonder about the unconscious dynamic driving what is essentially a "revenge" ethic. An ethic that I believe is counter to what the Democratic party should stand for.

Then I wonder if the poster really values the principles at the heart of a liberal society.

I have to wonder about 50% of the post on this site. At least.

[Midlodemocrat]

Then maybe, just maybe

you don't belong here. I've read all the accounts of this story along with all the blogs that have posted information about her.

She's a POS and anyone who would defend her probably is as well. She ADMITTED creating the account.

Care to explain that? Didn't think so. :eyes:

[mrbluto]

99. DU - Love it or leave it?

hey how about this bit:

Then maybe, just maybe you don't belong here.

I question the logical rigor of a post and you're implying that I should hit the road?

Maybe I should be "shunned" or "shamed" first?

Naw - sounds like you'd rather I just leave. Where would you suggest I go?

Before I sulk off, how about this bit:

She's a POS and anyone who would defend her probably is as well.

Well, lucky for us all your extensive blog reading closes the case far more efficiently and effectively than an actual court of law. Thanks for letting us all know what we should think of her and anyone who wants to reserve judgment, even a little bit, for an actual and impartial court to decide.

Perhaps you think the privilege of having a lawyer represent her is an extravagance as well.

Such economy in that one sentence - not only do you assert your opinion of a person you haven't met and know only via all your blog peruse'in you also get to preemptively get a few shots in at any yet-to-be-designated contester of your statement.

No caveats, nor conditionals - just declare! Testify! You go! You're a credit to DU. Tweak your text a bit and you'd be welcome in nearly any political forum.

Pure Rove.

[LostinVA]

144. What the fuck ever -- you just did two things in your post

1.) Broke a bunch of DU rules, and

2.) Made a fool out of yourself by saying such stuff about Midlodemocrat of all people.

Go play somewhere else.

Oh, three things: welcome to Ignore, .

Damn, where's my copy of the billy goats Gruff???

[mrbluto]

232. Very courageous of you.

Ignore the person you disagree with.

I wonder how the typical 29-percenter (not you of course) tends to deal with people who question their positions?

Hmmmmmm.

[LostinVA]

147. Show respect or leave, yes

"Shamed"? No, but you should be ashamed of your transparent attacks.

Don't your parents need their basement for something?

[mrbluto]

205. Respect is earned

Until one earns some, or until one squanders the respect I'll front them, I'm generally polite.

Demonstrate sloppy thinking and a fair weather adherence to one's stated (tacit or explicitly) principles and I see little reason to maintain a charade. Especially if the person is jamming and short-circuiting what could be, for others, a useful dialog.

Ever read Jonathan Swift?

This forum has more than a few Yahoos who don't really appreciate the purpose of our constitution, the bill of rights, or what is compelling about preserving the civil, liberal nature of our society. They just seem to like what rights do for them and discard consideration for the greater system when it threatens to interfere with the exercise of their personal passions and ambitions.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

210. i concur

[mrbluto]

207. Ow! That basement comment really got me.

What a time-saver that comment was!

Don't bother to engage me on the issue.

Don't bother to defend or refine your possition.

Just call me a name or question my character or maturity.

Then you're all set!

I've seen professionals pull the same maneuver on FOX.

[LostinVA]

142. Lori Drew admitted it, and back off of Midlo

She's a known Progressive on DU. Long-time posters who have earned their cred on here deserve some respect.

And, I agree with her: this woman is a sociopath, she is vile, and she deserves a long prison term. Again, LORI DREW HERSELF ADMITTED THIS TO POLICE.

[whopis01]

187. Just how progressive is it to consider using the death penalty? n/t

[LostinVA]

196. If you check my posting history, you'll see I've always been STRONGLY AGAINST the death penalty

[whopis01]

199. I never said anything about you not being against the death penalty

You responded to mrbluto saying:

Lori Drew admitted it, and back off Midlo She's a known Progressive on DU

I was just questioning your referring to Midlo as a "known progressive" when she was just suggesting that the death penalty was appropriate in this case.

[LostinVA]

200. Midlo is a known Progressive, and is also known to be quite anti-DP

What she said was that this case stirred up her emotions enough that she was almost ready to forget she was anti-DP. Some cases also make me feel that way a few times a year... which is why I'm so anti-DP. Emotions would have no part of it.

[mrbluto]

211. A bit of understanding.

I have to chime in here and say that I can understand wanting (in an emotionally unguarded moment) to apply the death penalty and, once one is in a situation to be more deliberative, to foreswearing such a penalty and keeping a consistent liberal stance.

No inconsistency in stating the wish as a personal wish - this is one purpose of the rule of law: ensure that we don't let our personal passions distort how we handle our efforts at justice.

[Richard Steele]

201. It's not "sloppy thinking", it's called READING THE STORY. You might want to try it.

If you did, you'd know that Lori Drew has already admitted to
creating that account specifically to target that child.

[mrbluto]

214. I did read the story.

and it states that she only wanted to monitor what Megan said about her daughter, that the woman states "some one must have hacked the account".

Do I believe that?

I'm very skeptical actually.

But neither have I really got my mitts on all the evidence. Nor has there been due process yet. So forgive me for advocating a little restraint and not joining in the two minute hate.

Besides it's not like the media has ever spun a story and left out crucial bits, right?

If you actually read my first post in this thread you'll see I was hoping to have a productive dialog about how "shaming" and "shunning" might be used as a tool to maintaining a civil society while ensuring that there were safe-guards against abuse.

But thanks anyway for assuming that I didn't read the story - it really helped the discussion.

[LostinVA]

135. Agreed -- a civil suit isn't enough for her

She needs some time for this. And, many inmates would NOT be happy with her.

[nonconformist]

96. Lori Drew (the mother that harrassed Megan) ADMITTED to it in a police report

[Midlodemocrat]

117. Why let that fact get in the way of those defending her actions?

:puke:

Sickening that on DU anyone would carry a torch for this woman.

[mrbluto]

124. Do me a favor.

Please point out those defending her actions clearly. Name names if you need to.

That way I'll know who to shun. Or shame. Take your pick.

If you can't then I'll have to wonder what would motivate someone to yammer about people who aren't actually present or posting.

My first theory will be that someone is drumming up good copy for some F**per sort of site.

But perhaps I'm biased, I jump to unwarranted conclusions, and I don't bother to apply ANY logic to my posts.

[LostinVA]

146. Breaking DU rules again -- but you knew that

Glass.

[mrbluto]

216. Please indicate what rules I am breaking.

Seriously.

I'd like to know.

Don't be afraid to quote my posts back to me.

[undergroundpanther]

11. In our culture

Bullies are REWARDED for such behaviors more often than not.


For ethics to matter to us, the happiness and suffering of others(and their quality of life) must matter to us.


At present time, it is currently legal in the United States for an individual (usually a person in a supervisory role) to impair and/or destroy the physical and psychological well being of an employee, their social support network and career using an employers resources when a person is not a member of a protected status group. Current State and Federal laws only recognize an unlawful employment practice when a person is a member of a “protected status” group such as race, religious creed, national origin, ancestry, physical disability, mental disability, medical condition, martial status, sex age or sexual orientation and the employer or any person acting directly or indirectly as an agent of the employer harasses an employee.

Why isn’t workplace bullying covered under current State of Federal law? Because the bully and the target are both members of a protected class, therefore the existing harassment laws are negated and the bully is free to impair the health of another person without ramifications. NYHWA and via the Healthy Workplace Bill seeks to expand current harassment law to make it an unlawful employment practice to subject an employee to an abusive workplace environment regardless of protected status membership or better defined as a “status-blind” harassment protection .
http://www.nyhwa.org/

Verbal abusers are dependent on the attention they get from their victims. It is their "fix." Verbal abusers need a participant. It becomes a codependent situation. Clients have shared how they have tried to be "assertive" by being verbally abusive back to their partners. They may plead and cry to arouse sympathy, or even try to reason with them. Unfortunately, though these women were trying to protect themselves, it only made matters worse. This behavior actually rewards the abuser.
http://www.enotalone.com/article/2368.html

In the evening Dr. Twemlow responded to many questions from teachers and parents. Significant to this reviewer in light of the relatively small audience, is the resistance the researchers found in adults, parents, and bullies, which, he believes, is offset by the efficacy of the program with the children and teachers.

Addressing a question regarding the "puzzle of violence," he referred again to the disinhibiting required in order to injure others, such as occurs in the military, and closed by emphasizing once more that the primary inhibitor of violence is the social context, the influence of other people, in other words, attachments.
http://www.dspp.com/papers/littler.htm

In an article on bullying which appeared in the July 20, 1998 edition of the Toronto Star, experts pointed out that over 50% of the adult population have experienced this form of violence at work, at home, and in society. According to this article, "research evidence is showing that childhood bullies become adult bullies, and that adult bullies far too often become people who systematically harm those around them with impunity due to misunderstandings about its causes. Research has clearly shown that unless social intervention stops the bullying process, the bully is rarely motivated to change themselves because the social rewards for obtaining personal power seems to encourage this behavior."

http://www.pioneerthinking.com/ej_rubber.html

THE CHILD AS POISON CONTAINER
The main psychological mechanism that operates in all child abuse involves using children as what I have termed poison containers--receptacles into which adults project disowned parts of their psyches, so they can control these feelings in another body without danger to themselves.
http://www.psychohistory.com/htm/05_history.html

Sometimes it takes the great Dustbuster of fate to clear the room of bullies and bad habits.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C03E6DB1E38F930A25757C0A9629C8B63

[bananas]

12. "And The Second "Worst Mother Named 'Lori Drew'" Award Goes To... "

http://jezebel.com/gossip/drew-no-blood/and-the-second-worst-mother-named-lori-drew-award-goes-to-323586.php

And The Second "Worst Mother Named 'Lori Drew'" Award Goes To...

Now that people have outed Curt and Lori Drew as the likely adult perpetrators of a vile MySpace hoax that led a depressed 13-year-old girl named Megan Meier to hang herself in her closet, we thought we might as well alert you to another inept parent named Lori Drew! This Lori is the leader of a Rhode Island high school's boycott of a book called When I Was A Loser: True Stories Of Barely Surviving High School, in particular a story by Will Clarke called "How to Kill a Boy That Nobody Likes."

Lori objects to the book on grounds of its "profanity," naturally. So if only to uncover this weird and awesome coincidence and the existence of this weird and awesome-sounding book, we're really happy we posted her name. Because, like, maybe if Megan Meier had read a book like the one the Rhode Island Lori Drew is banning, she wouldn't have hung herself over the Missouri Lori Drew's sick scheme. And maybe if the Rhode Island Lori Drew knew the real story of Missouri Lori Drew, who "killed a girl that no one liked," she'd understand the point of, you know, free speech... although, you're right, probs a stretch.

[undergroundpanther]

15. Free speech

is every bullies excuse.
There is no room for democracy in the mind of a bully.Bullies are not part of a democratic process in fact they do everything they can to UNDERMINE it.


The belief that the First Amendment guarantees people the right to unfettered speech results from the inability of too many people to understand the difference between freedoms and rights. People have the freedom to do what they want, but they do not have the right to do so without suffering consequences.
http://www.venturacountystar.com/news/2007/apr/10/good-manners-do-count/

[bananas]

16. I think you misunderstood.

The banned book might help people survive high school bullies.

[mrbluto]

34. A dangerous tack to take.

The "consequences" of free speech?

What sort of consequences do you think might get applied by the current administration given a prevailing attitude that sanctions retaliation based on what one says?

Maybe their scripts won't get bought perhaps?

Maybe their money won't be good at the general store?

Where are you going with this?

More importantly - where WILL people who act in bad faith go with this?

[Kajsa]

38. Well stated, undergroundpanther.

Many people don't understand this.

Freedom comes with responsibilities.

Refusing to take responsibility for one's actions
negates that freedom.

btw. Bullies are cowards.

[xchrom]

14. what a nightmare -- but there's more here than meets the eye or

the media story.

i HOPE there is some more complete investigation done -- not only of her tormentors -- but also her parents.

[DemBones DemBones]

21. I would think the girl's parents have been investigated,

and what a horrible experience that would be. Your child commits suicide after being bullied by sadists online and you are investigated to see what you did wrong.
But it has to be done because there are abusive parents.

Since the girl was on anti-depressants, she should have been seeing the doctor who prescribed them regularly. She may have been in therapy and certainly any doctor or counselor she was seeing would report any signs that indicated abuse of the girl. The law requires it, as well as professional ethics. Teachers have to report possible abuse cases, too, by law as well as professional ethics.

The fact that Megan was on anti-depressants suggests her parents were concerned about her and were not abusive. Abusive parents don't want their kids going to the doctor because that could expose the abuse.

[xchrom]

53. the article itself gives very few details.

we simply don't know.

all stones must turned over first.

that's all i'm saying.

[NashVegas]

28. I Disagree

When a kid has to tell/ask/plead with a parent to be a parent, there's trouble - for instance, the mom of the suicider was more pissed off at her daughter for not following orders, and continuing to read the messages than she was horrified for her - but I can't see where they did anything worthy of investigation in the death.

[Deja Q]

20. What'd the kid to do get that "bad person" line?!

Possibly nothing. As a child, adults said some sickening things to me as well. Or did cruel things in front of me. Or did really vile things to me. So I can empathize in ways most people couldn't even fool themselves into believing.

The only thing a person can do is to wade through other peoples' feces and get on with life. Oh yes, it hurts. And it poses more of a struggle than what most of society takes for granted. But you struggle, and use your God-given talents to survive.

I'm sorry it had to end in suicide.

And having kept my own mouth shut, trying to tell my parents years later about one issue in particular only resulted in disbelief. (If you, as a kid, were accused of doing drugs, you wouldn't say much of anything, even if you weren't... I never did and deplore the activity. Doesn't mean some people, even loved ones, won't be callous in their own ways...)

[GreenPartyVoter]

22. That poor family :^(

[alarimer]

23. Publicize what they did and ostracize them

Hopefully they will lose their jobs and be forced to move. These people are utter scum.

I swear, there is no such thing as shame anymore in this country.

[mrbluto]

39. The red state solution.

Why not just do as you say? It sounds like the red state thing to do.

[ChazII]

47. how would a blue state handle it?

just curious

[mrbluto]

52. Less likely to.....

...rely on ostracizing as the proper mechanism and then leave it at that.

Blue states aren't utopias by any stretch of the imagination, but the tribal methods that aren't suited to a modern society are less sanctioned by the government.

[Midlodemocrat]

64. Tell that to Yusef Hawkins.

What absolute, utter horseshit. :eyes:

[mrbluto]

73. I would tell him that.

Perhaps with some delicacy, but I would.

What part of "less likely" didn't you understand?

Did I say never? Did I say always? No.

And the fact the first thing you do is hop into a wayback machine and grab an example from eighteen years ago says a little something about both your case and where you're coming from on this issue.

[Midlodemocrat]

76. I'm from a blue state and your comments are beyond ridiculous.

Give it a rest. :eyes:

[mrbluto]

89. "Beyond ridiculous"? - Well guess I'm all refuted now.

Gee all you had to say is "give it a rest" and I'm vanquished.

Now how easy was that?

Not like you have to formulate an argument or defend your assertions or anything.

Oh, I see you're from a Blue state as well - how can I question your authority?

Not like you could be a 29-percenter that happens to live in a blue state.

I'm fairly careful when formulating my posts, but what the hell, why should I if all I get back is "ridiculous" and not even a thin gruel for backup.

Might as well yammer about putting the screws to the object of what ever the current object of the two minute hate is and the mildly informed DUers will love me.

[alarimer]

132. Well these fucking assholes need to be punished some way

They just can't go on with their lives as if they have not destroyed another person's. I would hope they would lose whatever pathetic excuses for friends they have. They would certainly no longer be friends of mine if I knew them. Fucking scumbags.

[mrbluto]

138. Darn right!

It's a shame the doody-head system of justice gets in the way of punishing evil-doers!

Not a chance that the situation is any more complex or nuanced than as presented on blogs or in the media!

Where's my pitchfork?

You get the torches.

Let's head for the castle!

[nonconformist]

173. Look everyone! The Drew's are posting on DU!

[mrbluto]

208. How perceptive!

Really.

Because anyone who defends the rights of an accused person, or, more particularly, that we might want to show a modicum of reserve until due process has had a chance to work is a bad person.

In this case the actual culprit!

You caught me - I had a little spare time and came to to defend myself in this forum because it's so critical to my defense.

Now you caught me.

sigh.

p.s.: why is it that when many people, even many self-declared liberals, encounter someone with a different opinion (and I'm not even talking about an opposed opinion) they give in to impulse and reflexively lump them in with the "evil doers"?

[countryjake]

175. Welcome to DU, mrbluto!

I appreciate your level headed commentary on this topic. Calling for a return to the stocks and shackles in a public square many have expressed here would be seen for the irrational reaction that it is, if personal emotions hadn't gotten in the way.

Approval of the covert attacks on our freedoms, a desire to qualify who gets "justice" and who does not, the dismissal of basic human rights, and that ancient standby, "an eye for an eye", seems to be something of a sport, sorry to say.

[rockymountaindem]

88. Yeah, 'cause we're all cave men out here

:sarcasm:

You ass.

[mrbluto]

101. all cavemen?

Yep.

I was a bit of an ass to go for the red state card.

Did you read the rest of this thread?

It's an unthinking two minute hate for the most part and I felt like saying something to mix it up a bit.

I know fully well that the "red states" are not some monolithic cluster of banjo playing cousin lovers.

As a token of apology to any reasonable person insulted by my post who happens to be from a so-called red state and insulted by the above sentence please take a look at this:



it's a cartograph that give you a much better idea as to what the supposed divide looks like. (hint: not really as much of one as we're encouraged to believe.)

I encourage you to read my other posts and journal. Once you do I think you'll think better of me.

[rockymountaindem]

102. Apology accepted

But if you want a piece of unsolicited advice, this isn't the kind of place where you can stir the pot and expect not to get any blowback.

[Midlodemocrat]

115. .

:applause:

:rofl:

[mrbluto]

143. You most intelligent post so far.

congratulations!

I almost didn't see it the title was so short - a period, how apt!

Most of your post deserve 3X that in response - an ellipsis.

...

nothing less, nothing more.

I await your next thought terminating trope.

[sandyd921]

What's that got to do with this?

Not a red state, blue state sort of thing. The reactions of people to what this Lori Drew did are quite universal.

[Midlodemocrat]

113. Don't feed it.

[mrbluto]

125. That's right.

Pay no attention to those who don't agree with Midlodemocrat.

[mrbluto]

120. This story is getting spun for a purpose.

That's what it's got to do with this. This story has been allowed to hit the airwaves not only because it's heart-rending, but also because it's a canard for some other objective.

For example:

Suppose the father does go bezerk and hurt the alleged culprits.

An then we all go "Awwwwww. he was distraught" and go lightly on him.

How long before we get a hundred times that in the number of incidents where some anti-choice person, or someone supporting the talking point du-jour, goes bezerk and goes for that defense?

Where are we then?

or as another example:

Legislation is proposed that you need a license and post a bond to go on line. Those who balk get painted as "being on the side of Megan's tormentors"

See where I'm going?

This has happened a couple of times before in one way or another, has happened via different medium since time immemorial: why the coverage now?

DU shouldn't just be a place to commiserate and agree with each other.

Let's deliberate and hammer out some positions.

Let's apply analysis to the spin and stop it in it's tracks

Let's deny authoritarians the low hanging fruit of reflexive response!

[proud2BlibKansan]

50. Here is a link

to their identity and address.

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4023371565105610798&postID=1546676200000046641&pli=1

[book_worm]

24. these people know who they are. I wonder how they are trying to rationalize what they did?

[SharkSquid]

27. I dont know how these

SOB's can justify their existence.

[Le Taz Hot]

30. I'm flabbergasted that this was

done BY AN ADULT! I love the internet, but I swear, if I had children, I probably would not let them create a My Space account. Too much mischief to be had there.

This is SO heartbreaking. :cry:

[derby378]

32. MySpace is only as good as the people who populate it

The format of the forum is strictly incidental. I suspect atrocities similar to this have been perpetrated in sewing circles and prep schools for decades before they found their way online.

[Le Taz Hot]

35. But (extremely vulnerable) teenagers

and pre-teens seem to be inexplicable drawn to MySpace. Because of the anonymous nature of cyberspace, it makes ANYONE vulnerable to some pretty evil mischief and I'm thankful that DU is fairly void of all that stuff (with the exception of the Lounge). I know, I was a victim of a stalker on the old AOL. It was terrible for me and I'm an adult. I don't have anything against MySpace itself, it's just that I feel these kids are so vulnerable and cyberspace can be such a boon for bullies. And an adult at that? I have no words.

[KitchenWitch]

118. Hey, No Knocking the Lounge

:eyes:

[tammywammy]

37. There was an episode of Dateline (I think)

Where they took girls and boys and set them up on the internet and watched how they interacted with each other. It was amazing how down right mean people can be. The girls eventually within a few hours turned on each other and started calling each other sluts, whores, etc. It's just sad.

The fact that this was an adult makes it 1000 times worse.

[tammywammy]

36. I read this story a few days ago

It's just horrible. There's a special spot in Hell for people that perpetuate crimes like this. What's even worse is that there isn't a way to punish those adults within the legal system.

I feel for Megan's parents, having to go through this and then to discover that it was adults. It's just unimaginable that ADULTS would do this to a little 13 year old girl. Disgusting.

I do like the signs that they placed up:

"Vicki Dunn, Tina's aunt, last month placed signs in and near the neighborhood on the anniversary of Megan's death.

They read: "Justice for Megan Meier," "Call the St. Charles County Prosecuting Attorney," and "MySpace Impersonator in Your Neighborhood.""

[aikoaiko]

40. I really wanted this story to be a hoax itself, but it doesn't look that way

Even the AP is running with it. http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gg5xCtQtLBF6vJqWXStItGEOsJfwD8SV6U680

Even if they police are hamstrung by the lack of appropriate laws, they need to verify IP address and messages sent with MySpace, and let the public know whether someone from the accused family was involved or not.

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. This is one of the most disgusting stories I have ever read

Megan's parents need to sue this other family. Then their names will be made public. At the very least, pubic humiliation is very much deserved. And hey, it worked for OJ.

[Canuckistanian]

42. Is there a more "jounalistic" account of this?

I can't stand this 'dramatised' version.

[aikoaiko]

45. The original article was one of the reasons I thought it might be a hoax

but the ap is running it too. I assume the AP writer did basic fact checking, but the AP article doesn't reveal anything more.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gg5xCtQtLBF6vJqWXStItGEOsJfwD8SV6U680

[tammywammy]

67. Here's a link of Anderson Cooper reporting on it

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2007/11/17/tuchman.mo.myspace.suicide.cnn

[BuelahWitch]

84. That was gut wrenching

Those poor people and their beautiful little girl, and the fucking perps saying, "Give it a rest!"
:cry:

[tammywammy]

91. Reading the story was one thing

Seeing those parents tearing up and crying is another. :cry:

My heart goes out to them. And the fact that Lori was pissed because they destroyed their foosball table!!! They should be damn thankful they're not being sued in civil court for wrongful death. And Lori needs to get down on her knees and beg forgiveness, instead they say "give it a rest." What heartless bastards.

[idgiehkt]

163. tearing up that table was the best thing they did though

because the psycho walked down to the police station and admitted in writing everything she'd done to torment that kid. What a lark. I think it will get a lot of media exposure...this family will probably end up on Oprah and Dr. Phil because it is such a timely story.

[tammywammy]

164. Yeah, I can't believe that that woman had the gall

to complain to the police when they destroyed her foosball table. Seriously. She should be on her knees thankful that they aren't suing her in civil court.

[TorchTheWitch]

112. Oh man, that was really heartbreaking

That poor family suffering like this needlessly. Bad enough they have to deal with their daughter's death but to be continually tormented by the assholes that did this is horrifying.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

55. Some of the cruelest things in the world begin with the phrase "let's play a joke on so and so"

That's sort of how I imagine this whole thing started - with tragic consequences. Children and teens have always been cruel, teasing and hurtful of each other - (anyone remember "Slam Books").

The involvement of the parent (the one who set up the fake page) is pretty shocking - it seems like a case of arrested development - someone who living her own life vicariously through her daughter. This is actually a perfect kind of topic for Oprah and Dr. Phil.

This is really a sad, sad story.

[progressivebydesign]

77. I despise practical jokes.. seeing them carried out makes me cry... n/t

[spoony]

180. Great point

If anything positive can possibly come from such a horrible situation, maybe some people who see this story will have it stick with them and not initiate or go along with cruel pranks, or teach their kids that lesson with more emphasis.

[mrbluto]

56. The real risk.

What are the real risks at stake in this issue?

Why do I ask?

Because it's dawned on me why this story, and others like it, get so much play in the media with the spin that it does:

Excellent excuse to make anonymity a crime.

Much like all the child porn cases, predator reports, etc.

All these cases and incidents are tragic and an outrage, but what measures are justified to prevent, or at least apprehend and punish the perpetrators of, these crimes?

It seems like authoritarian power in a democracy is usually first acquired on the basis that there is some threat, external or internal, that requires action - and an exception to the rules. Torture for instance. Or surveillance. Often the tools and methods of authoritarian control are first tested and applied on weak or disenfranchised elements of a population before they are applied to the whole of a population. (just as often exempting, explicitly or tacitly, those who possess or wield the power)

These are some of the next questions to ask:

How big a problem is this sort of thing?

How does it stack up against the benefits of anonymity and secure communications? (whistle-blowers, informants, etc.)

Are there ways to combat the problem without compromising rights or granting new powers?

[mrbluto]

59. Two Minute Hate.

It looks like, for most of the people in this thread, that once I and others made it difficult to keep it as a "Two Minute Hate" straight out of 1984 that they all left the thread.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I've noticed this on other threads too.

Once there's actual debate, once there's the prospect that there'll be some heavy lifting, once it looks like people are going to get called on sloppy thinking and emotionally-motivated logical flailing...

...they find some other thread.

Why is that?

[JVS]

60. If my daughter said the following, she'd be lucky not to end up in a convent. Computer would be gone

His name was Josh Evans. He was 16 years old. And he was hot.

"Mom! Mom! Mom! Look at him!" Tina Meier recalls her daughter saying.

Josh had contacted Megan Meier through her MySpace page and wanted to be added as a friend.

Yes, he's cute, Tina Meier told her daughter. "Do you know who he is?"

"No, but look at him! He's hot! Please, please, can I add him?"


Mom said yes. And for six weeks Megan and Josh - under Tina's watchful eye - became acquainted in the virtual world of MySpace.

[mrbluto]

68. Yes. Right on the money - lock'em all up. The kids I mean.

Because it's sooooo healthy an approach to the issue. And this forum is for you to vent your personal frustrations, rather than any considered opinion on issues, economics, policy or politics.

Just take a hint from this Reagan era commentator:

"Just tell them to keep your hands out of what’s inside your swimsuits – that takes care of most girls and boys."

- Phyllis Schlafly

After all when you're advocating toward the approach that someone who opposed equal rights for women you know you're heading in the RIGHT direction.

[JVS]

70. Sorry, but having internet friends according to hotnes is scuzzy for an adult even

It's way too seedy for a kid. It would be like a 14 year old wanting to go to a pick-up bar.

[mrbluto]

121. Of course you would object to a kid using the term "Hot"

You'd lock her in a convent, why not decide the word "Hot" is beyond the pale.

Thank you for letting us know we're back the the Schlaffly position. (heh.)

Seriously - when do you start giving your kids a clue so they're not ignorant about risk and learn to handle thier natural impulses?

And, unless you live on some huge palatial, allodial estate, then how do keep other kids letting the cat out of the bag?

Perhaps there ought to be a law.

[progressivebydesign]

74. I do a regular "friend Check" with my 16 year old daughter.

I am also one of her "friends" as is my mom and sister, and her sister, and her older brothers. That way we all get her bulletins, can see who's posting what on her site, etc. The "Friend check" is where we sit down, uninterrupted, and go through each of her friends and she tells me how she knows them, if she's met them before, etc. She is logged on when we do this, so that we can see the otherwise private profiles of her friends. We have deleted many people that were "internet friends of friends", and others that weren't age appropriate for her. In NO WAY would she EVER be allowed to add a guy that just contacted her out of the blue like that. She has friends from school who are conducting long distance relationships over the internet with supposed teen boys they've never met. Once I caught her falling into that with a friend of a friend that neither she nor her friend had ever actually met. He was deleted immediately. We talk all the time about liars and predators on the internet, and I send her articles when I find them.

The thing that blows me away is how 99% of her friends have myspace profiles, set to private, that their parents never see. And the stuff on some of these profiles (not on her immediate friends but acquaintances) would shock the parents. How many of those parents know that their kids are depressed, cutting themselves, drinking, smoking pot, lying, having internet relationships, shoplifting, etc. None. If your kid is under 18 you need to know what is on their myspace. It's also amazing to me how many parents have given their kids laptops, or have their own computer that is completely inaccessable to the parents. It's like once they hit 7th grade the parenting stops. The other parents complain to me that their kids dont' tell them anything, never talk, never get off the computer, etc. etc. etc. They don't realize THEY are the ones that have checked out, not the kids. Myspace can be a really fun and positive place, but you can't just let your teen go in there with no guidance, check-ins, or parenting.

[kelliebrat]

61. What sick and heartless thing to do

and by and adult no less. I don't care how many 'problems' this 13 y/o girl had, what this woman did is beyond despicable. Girls at 13 are so emotionally fragile to begin with, but deliberately fucking with the head (and heart) of a 'troubled' teen is vile and reprehensible. I hope this woman is held responsible for this girls death. Unfuckingbelievable

[Beelzebud]

62. Honestly, this woman should be charged with harrassment, and involuntary manslaughter, at least.

[progressivebydesign]

81. Not really. What she did was cruel and stupid, but not illegal.

Sad, but true. It's just the shit people do all the time. It's cruel, and it's awful, but never in this woman's mind did she believe she was causing a suicide. Not defending her in the least, she's an idiot for meddling in her daughter or son's life by doing this. She thought the girl was posting mean crap about her kid, and instead of doing the mature thing, which would be to either let it go or talk to the girl's parents about it, she concocted this awful plan. The girl that died was also in trouble with her parents, and was distraught about that, because they found that she had been posting some thing with foul-language, according to her Mom, and knew she was in trouble for that. The poor girl just had it all crashing down on her at once, and already being treated for depression, it was just too much.

The so-called adult that started this probably did nothing illegal, just incredibly incredibly cruel and stupid.

[Beelzebud]

94. I said "should be". I stand by it. That freak should be sitting in jail.

[mrbluto]

110. I agree.

You said "should be".

That makes a heap of difference.

I've said essentially the same point in at leasst one of my other posts.

[Guaranteed]

136. It is- legally- murder if her intent was to cause the death of the girl. nt

[The Backlash Cometh]

65. That woman should have a lousy rest of her life.

[devilgrrl]

66. Gotta love some of the "Oh well, shit happens" "she had other problems anyway" responses

Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me bullshit.

Oh, how very progressive of you. :eyes:

[Midlodemocrat]

69. I'm loving the ones defending Lori Drew for her behavior.

:eyes:

[LostinVA]

150. And attacking long-time progressive posters for thinking Drew is a POS

For, you know, something she's DAITTED DOING.

[mrbluto]

181. How dare I?

Because I didn't realize seniority trumps logic.

Do you hear yourselves?

[tammywammy]

71. Agreed

[mrreowwr_kittty]

85. Makes me wonder about some of the folks here on DU

Certain subjects make callous libertarianism rear its ugly head here, in a big way. Just check out threads about obesity.

[devilgrrl]

100. How about the ones that defend spying on employees? Yep, you're a criminal until proven otherwise.

Yeah, Ron Paul is GAWD!!!!! :eyes:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

103. Along with the ones who are okay with you not gettng a job or being fired

For being fat or smoking on your own time. Which is weird because that wouldn't seem to be very libertarian but they justify it because it's a private company rather than the gov't doing it. You know, because of insurance rates. :eyes:

Just goes to show what a crock libertarianism is. All you're doing is trading the government you see as being oppressive with corporate oppression.

[mrbluto]

109. Nail hit - pretty much on head.

I have to say you pretty much hit the nail on the head about libertarianism.

A full 50% of self identified libertarians I've ever encountered have been Ayn Rand Fan boys yodeling about how the nanny state gets in the way of their ubermench-ness and talent.

On the other hand ten percent do their homework, actually think it through, and, as a result, have interesting points to consider.

Whether I agree with them is another point.

[mrbluto]

105. Who's defending her actions?

Just curious.

Who's defending her actions as opposed to defending due process, rule of law, and reserving judgment about her in particular?

[KitchenWitch]

119. Thank you!

:eyes:

[progressivebydesign]

72. She was also facing getting in lots of trouble for her Myspace stuff from her parents.

That was also part of the story. The people who were harrassing her, then she just found out her parents saw her postings using bad language and was in a lot of trouble with them, as well. I think she just couldn't take it all at once. No excuse for what those people did to her. Apparently the woman that started it felt that the girl was posting bad things about her daughter or son or something, I think that was the stupid point of having "Josh" break up with her because she was "cruel" and "saying mean things about her friends" . I'm sure not in her wildest nightmares would she have believed the girl would kill herself over it. Stupid adults need to stay out of their children's lives. If the woman had a problem with what the girl was posting about her kid, then she should have talked her parents about it... not acted like a 12 year old with that scheme.

[earth mom]

75. They need to sue the family responsible! Letting them off scot free sends the message

that cruelty of this kind is o.k.

It is NOT!

I am beyond furious and saddened and sickened by this story! :grr: :cry:

Sometimes I really HATE people, ya know?!

[TorchTheWitch]

78. Attorneys weigh in - yes to criminal harrassment charges

Video on Fox where two attorneys say that certainly criminal harrassment charges should be filed against the adults who tormented Megan on the internet. Although it's a misdemeaner, they say it's better than nothing...

http://www.foxnews.com/video/0,4861,1,00.html
Scroll down to Law Center and click on link for "Kelly's Court - Teen kills herself after fake online 'friend' breaks her heart"

[mrreowwr_kittty]

86. They should be able to sue for damages as well. nt

[LisaL]

116. Guess what? A lot of people misrepresent who they are when

they are on the internet. You almost have to expect this. Looks like the 13 year old couldn't handle it, but why was she on my space to begin with, considering you have to be 14 or older to sign up?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

128. Yeah, it's her fault and her parents fault

Everyone else but the asshole who tormented her.

Who, BTW, could have just as easily picked another method to do it besides MySpace. The woman lived down the street from Megan.

[LisaL]

129. Hmm.

It's not easy for someone who is not a young boy, to pretend to be a young boy in person.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

137. Hmm. No one has ever used the U.S. mail or the phone to impersonate anyone

And naturally, there's just no way that woman would have thought of another method besides impersonating a young boy online to take vengeance on a girl who had insulted her daughter.

Why, before MySpace existed there were never instances of stuff like that happening. Like....oh say....a woman in Texas taking out a hit on a girl who was a cheerleading rival of her daughter back in the '90s.

Nope, there were never whackos who live so entirely through their own children that they'd be driven to harm another child prior to the existence of MySpace.

:eyes:

[LisaL]

141. I am trying very hard to figure out WTF does it have to do with a

case in hand.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

148. It has to do with you blaming the victims in the case at hand.

Making it about why she was on MySpace rather than why an adult neighbor of hers is a sick fuck who torments children.

[NorthernSpy]

159. Guess what? Some of them are breaking the law!

You see, according to the law, you have a personal responsibility not to harass children.

[LisaL]

170. What law would that be?

Did you just make it up?

[NorthernSpy]

188. "Annoying Online Posts Could Be Illegal"

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/PCWorld/story?id=1503454

Writing annoying, anonymous online posts or e-mails could land you in jail for as long as two years. That's according to the Violence Against Women and Department of Justice Reauthorization Act of 2005, which was signed into law last week.

According to a section of the act, anyone who uses the Internet anonymously "with intent to annoy, abuse, threaten, or harass another person" can be tried for violating federal telecommunications law and face fines or jail.

I'd imagine that using a fictitious name will be viewed as equivalent to acting anonymously.


That's just one applicable federal statute. There are other possibly applicable state laws against harassment and stalking, as well as other statutes that deal with child endangerment or contributing to the delinquency of a minor. I'm sure a good prosecutor could find something suitable to the occasion.


So yeah: harassing children is illegal. Is this really news to you?

[LisaL]

194. Well, actually, now I think I have read this article before.

I've forgotten all about it but this rings a bell. And by the way a lot of posts here annoy me. Hmm. Who should one report annoying anonymous posts to, so the annoying anonymous poster can be prosecuted?

[Guaranteed]

139. Again, the police should investigate into the intent of those who did this

If the intent was to cause Megan's death, they can be charged with and convicted of murder, despite the attenuated cause.

[TroubleMan]

79. As a parent of three (and all 3 kids are on the computer) this is horrible....but not illegal.

(Well my 20 month year old daughter only plays with the mouse and keyboard - she's not on the internet, LOL)

While I think that the lady who did this is the scum of the earth, looking at the report I don't think what she did is necessarily illegal. The parents of the child who have a daughter on anti-depressants, should be monitoring their daughter more closely. The internet is not a place for the emotionally unstable - especially a place like myspace.

You can't "make" somebody commit suicide; they choose to commit suicide. Even if they have mental disorders, something that you tell somebody on the internet doesn't make somebody kill themselves. They had deeper underlying problems that weren't addressed properly. Of course, you can make somebody to commit suicide if you lock them up and torture them, but firing harsh words at a person, when they have the option not to read it, doesn't make them commit suicide.

Also, we can't make a law against flaming somebody on the internet (anonymously or not), even if it's a minor. That's absolutely ridiculous. If somebody can't separate the internet from reality, then they need to get off of the computer. Of course, credible threats of physical violence are illegal now, and should be illegal. If all she said was: "Everybody in O'Fallon knows how you are. You are a bad person and everybody hates you. Have a shitty rest of your life. The world would be a better place without you." - there's no way she should be arrested.

Again the person who did this is scum of the earth, should have her life publicized, and she should be harassed on the internet and in real life. If I was her boss she'd be fired, and maybe picketing her house and job would be a good idea. It is legal (and probably the right thing to do) to make her life hell, just like she did to that kid. Making it a crime, however, is a serious (and ridiculous) abridgment of free speech.

[mrbluto]

133. Might already be a crime.

If you show reckless negligence or willful endangerment of someone, via whatever mechanism you can think of, you open yourself up to legal repercussions.

That said, conviction is not certain.

On the other hand there are a number of elements the defense would have a tough time justifying from what I read.

Misrepresenting one's identity isn't going to help the defense.
Knowing the subject is prescribed anti-depressants won't help the defense.
Neglecting to keep control of the account one used just to snoop, rather than torment.

Looks dicey either way. As far as conviction goes.

[dsc]

191. sure you can

Take a kid and abuse him daily. Tell him he is worthless scum and the world will be better off without him. Add it a secret you threaten to disclose and soon, very soon, you have suicide.

[Shallah Kali]

80. St. Charles County prosecutor reviewing Meier case

I can't believe the nerve of some people. The woman who harassed a depressed kid had the nerve to call the cops when her parents chopped up the foosball table.

http://wentzvillejournal.stltoday.com/articles/2007/11/16/news/sj2tn20071116-1116stc_banas.ii1.txt

Back on Nov. 25, 2006, the woman who created the fake MySpace page called the sheriff's department and filed a report.

She did that after the Meiers destroyed a foosball table - a future Christmas present - they had been storing in their garage for the family down the street. The Meiers destroyed it on the day they learned the neighbor had created the phony Josh Evans account.

In that police report, the woman down the street told a sheriff's deputy she created the MySpace page to see what Megan was saying about her daughter. She also said the account was monitored by her, her daughter and an 18-year-old part-time employee.

[TorchTheWitch]

83. Doesn't look like it was ever investigated at all!

From your link...

"McGuire said last week that the investigator spoke to an assistant prosecutor in Banas' office and that the assistant prosecutor confirmed that charges should not be filed.

But Banas said Thursday, as he did last week, that he doesn't know who the investigator talked to in his office and he has no record that his office was even contacted.

Banas said his office has a formal written policy police agencies should follow when requesting that his office file charges.

This same problem was mentioned in an Oct. 21 Journal story involving an 18-year-old O'Fallon girl who had received 500 to 1,000 obscene and threatening e-mails. Police eventually arrested a young man, 17 at the time, who was convicted in O'Fallon Municipal Court of littering.

The girl's parents were outraged that the prosecuting attorney in O'Fallon, Larry D. Nesslage, had allowed the harassment charge to be changed to littering and that he had not taken the time, despite requests from the girl's parents, to meet before the case was decided."


Well, isn't that interesting. Theu claim they investigated at the time yet there is no record that any investigation occurred at all!

And there was another incident where another girl received up to 1000 harrassing emails and the prosecuter allowed the harrassment charge against the perp to be changed to LITTERING!

Something is very wrong here.

[TorchTheWitch]

82. Photo of Megan - she was lovely

From this site - http://www.dreamindemon.com/2007/11/14/myspace-hoax-leads-to-megan-meier-suicide/

[RestoreGore]

87. Why weren't this girl's parents monitoring her computer use?

My 13 year old would NEVER be on My Space in the first place, let alone be allowed to talk to people on the computer without my knowing EVERYTHING that was being typed. To think that one sentence on a a My Space page would bring this girl to kill herself really makes me wonder what the rest of her life was like. This is so tragic.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

90. Why would a parent who lives down the street from her play such a cruel hoax?

I put the blame on her, not Megan's parents. She happened to use a MySpace account to perpetrate it. Given her proximity to Megan she could have easily resorted to other means to torment the girl. Any adult who would tell a child that the world would be better off without her is scum.

[RestoreGore]

131. Well did I state I DIDN'T put blame on her?

No, I did not. I agree, and she should have to face some sort of justice for it, but again, if the girl had not been on My Space at all in the first place would this have happened?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

145. You don't think it's possible for a woman who lives DOWN THE STREET from the girl

To figure out another way to torment her if MySpace weren't available to do it? Ever hear of the telephone and the mail?

As I pointed out to another poster, there was a famous case in Texas of a deranged woman who hired a hitman to take out her daughter's cheerleading rival. Fortunately, the plot was exposed but it just goes to show how far some people will go to live vicariously through their kids.

I don't think this woman intended for Megan to take her own life but she sure acted with reckless abandon toward a child she knew personally to suffer from depression. This is not a case of random strangers on the internet playing a prank. This was a grown woman deliberately targetting a child.

The Meiers should sue the shit out of her.

[RestoreGore]

154. yes, but on the computer you are anonymous

It is more of a risk for a harrasser using a phone where your voice can be made or letter writing where prints can be made. It appears the computer was the chief source of this harrasssment because of its anonymity, so again, it should have been ended... then if it forced her hand to using another method, they may have been able to catch her before it was too late. It is truly a tragedy.

[tammywammy]

93. It wasn't one sentence

It was a continual bombardment of harassment that last day, from you're fat, you're a slut to the world would be better off without you.

Lori knew that Megan had suffered from low self-esteem and depression, she pushed Megan over the edge.

[RestoreGore]

152. Well then again, as a mother "continual" harassment of my child would be ended

I would have deleted her page and any contact with that site and reported it. It would only take one time.

[tammywammy]

153. Sigh, did you read the story?

It all happened in one afternoon. The nasty postings were the same day she hanged herself.

[kineneb]

95. depression does weird things to thinking

I also was a depressed teen, and life was very difficult. The world as I perceived it was quite different from what most others saw. The feelings of worthlessness that come with clinical depression, along with the treatment of peers, can be unbearable.

I can also understand that the post may have been the final straw to push her over the edge into suicide. She was on antidepressants and was probably suicidal to start with. I could have done the same thing.

She was a lovely child. I am so sorry for her parents.
:cry:

[TorchTheWitch]

104. Apparently you didn't read the whole story - she WAS monitored

Only Megan's mother had the password to her MySpace so Megan couldn't get in it without her mother's supervision. Her mother had the final word on content, who was the decider on who was permitted to be added as a 'friend', etc.

It was hardly one sentence that hurt this girl, it was a pile-on by many 'friends' (i.e., the perp mother, her daughter, her employee and a neighbor's daughter she encouraged to join in) saying all kinds of cruel things to her.

You CAN'T totally control what your kid does on the computer because it's far to easy for any kid to get unlimited unsupervised access by using a friend's computer, a cell phone that has internet access, a school computer, internet cafe, etc. I think Megan's mother was wise to compromise by allowing supervised access so Megan wouldn't be compelled to seek unlimited unsupervied access, which is far too easy for kids to do.

[LisaL]

108. You have to be 14 or older to sign up for my space. This kid

was 13.
Why was she on my space to begin with?

[TorchTheWitch]

122. she was only weeks away from her 14th birthday

On her 14th birthday was something magical suposed to happen to her that would make the harrassment and the consequences any different? Her mother relented and allowed her access weeks away from her 14th birthday knowing that if she didn't Megan would be likely to get access some other way behind her parents' backs, which is all too easy for a kid to do. Better that they compromise and allow access with supervision and Megan not having the password to get on MySpace without their monitoring. Megan was satified with the arrangement which kept her from going behind her parents' backs and getting unsupervised unlimited access some other way.

This was no general cyber bullying. It was a family living on the same street with a MISSION to disguise themselves for the purpose of harrassing and tormenting Megan who they knew personally and knew she was especially volunerable. The perp-mother admitted in the police report that the fake "Josh" profile was a hoax for the express reason of having contact with Megan. The perp-mother enlisted the aid of her employee, her own daughter and another neighbor's daughter to perpetuate the hoax, and gave them the password to the "Josh" profile... almost all of the harrassment came from that "Josh" profile.

[LisaL]

123. Well, I dunno.

You have to be 14 to sign up.
Interview of her parents with Anderson Cooper included a shot of Megan's my space page. It claimed she was 16.

[TorchTheWitch]

134. So?

That may have been the idea of the parents to make her seem older so she wouldn't be perceived as a good "mark" by preditors. Or maybe Megan changed it herself that ONE afternoon she had access unmonitored. What does it have to do with the family that perpetuated the hoax for the sole purpose of harrassing and tormenting Megan? What's with this blame the victim BS? Does just having a MySpace account make it YOUR fault if you're criminally harrassed through it?

These people knew Megan personally and lived only 4 houses away from her. They could have chosen ANY other method to criminally harrass her other than the internet (phone calls, mail, in person, etc.) and it would have been a crime. They chose the method of the internet because of how much easier it is to not get caught and if you are to go unpunished.

Interesting that this went on for six weeks and the harrassment and tormenting began the moment Megan was left unsupervised on MySpace for the first and only time by her mother leaving the house, isn't it?

[LisaL]

140. Oh I see. Are you seriously suggesting that a 16 year old is too

old and thus predators won't be interested? Okey-dokey.

[TorchTheWitch]

179. And I see you are still ignoring the issue

How old she was has nothing to do with it. If she had not been allowed monitored access until a mere few weeks later when she had her 14th birthday are you seriously suggesting this would never have happened?

Keep blaming the victim if it pleases you so much, I'm done with such ridiculous excuses.

[LisaL]

185. Are you trying to argue this girl would have

killed herself no matter what? You have no idea what would have happened if she was not allowed to use my space. You certainly can't argue she would have killed herself regardless, unless you claim to be psychic.

[RestoreGore]

130. Excuse me, but I damn well can totally control the computer regarding my child

And I have and my child is the better for it.

[TorchTheWitch]

177. It's really a shame you think so

You may be able to totally control computer access regarding your child in your own home, but there's no way you can when they aren't around you. Any kid who wants internet access can get it VERY easily. They've got friends with computers, schools with computers, libraries with computers, friends with internet access right on their cell phones... it's EVERYWHERE. It's unbelievably naive to think any parent including yourself has total control of their kid's computer access.

Hopefully, your child is happy with the computer access you allow them and doesn't go behind your back to get unsupervised access elsewhere. If they aren't satisfied, I GUARANTEE you they are getting access somewhere else that you don't know a thing about because they CAN. Good for you that you do your best in monitoring your child's computer use, but sorry, you can't watch them 24/7, and if they want access unmonitored by you, they can and will get it VERY easily.

[RestoreGore]

182. No, my child respects me

maybe that's the difference.

[LisaL]

111. If you go to my space and read their agreement, it says you

have to be 14 to sign up to begin with. This kid was 13. The parents did allow her to sign up, apparently, even though you have to be 14 or older.

[LostinVA]

151. Her mother did monitor her exchange with "Josh"

[RestoreGore]

155. You mean she monitored the insults?

ONCE should have been enough.

[LostinVA]

161. That didn't happen until the very last time

Did you read the accounts?

[INDIA]

176. Try reading the article before casting blame on the parents.

From the article, it seems they were VERY vigilant in monitoring her computer use, up to the point of keeping the daughters MySpace password away from her, and approving any friends she added. I assure you that's far more than most parents do.

Reading only the headlines and casting judgment is exactly what Fox and the MSM want you to do. good job.

[RestoreGore]

184. Sorry, all the parents in this are responsible is some way

And the ones who admitted to harrassing this girl should be jailed for it, but I also believe that if this girl had been truly monitored there would have been no other messages allowed. And I did read it and noticed their computer was in the basement. How do you monitor a child's use in the basement? My computer is in my dining room where my child has to sit with me in the other room monitoring it. And sorry, you don't monitor your child by leaving them alone in the house and asking them over the phone if they have logged off. You do it for them and take them with you if you have to. Especially under the circumstances regarding this girl who had already had comments sent to her from this "Josh." I would have been responding to it the first time and telling him not to contact my daughter again. And I can blame the parents on all sides if I choose to as a parent myself because I see too much of this from parents who think that by being a bit strict regarding such things that they are somehow bad parents.

[Eurobabe]

92. Absolutely sickening. As a parent

I can't believe this entire story.

[panzerfaust]

97. Had that been my only child, I know what I would do

And it ain't very liberal, but, living in Texas, I doubt that I would be convicted.

[greiner3]

98. Does it need to be checked out;

That that 'Josh's' family are republicans?

[Iris]

107. The suburbs...

nice place to raise a family.

[Midlodemocrat]

114. Actually, it is. A very nice place to raise a family. Your broad

brush statement doesn't cut it. This woman, Lori Drew is a vile, POS. Not everyone who lives in the suburbs is.

[mrbluto]

127. Wow you sound like you know her.

It'd be different if you said "whoever did this is a POS in my opinion" versus "She is a POS".

You sound so certain. You sound like you're ready to string her up right now.

Do you know her?

Have you ever seen the movie "Twelve Angry Men" with Henry Fonda?

[Iris]

193. sorry, but I disagree

Suburbs make it easy for people like this to act like she did. Conformity is good, even if it's cruel and dehumanizing.

[K8-EEE]

225. Not a fan of the burbs myself....

But cruelty, unfortunately, exists everywhere.

[Initech]

126. God damn, some people really fucking suck.

[wtmusic]

156. I would bet they're Republicans. nt

[Initech]

166. Wouldnt surprise me in the least.

[Quantess]

149. This makes me sick to my stomach.

Those adults knew she had a depression problem. Even if she wasn't depressed, it would still be thoroughly wrong!

[Uncle Joe]

157. Just curious, does anyone know when Murdoch bought MySpace?

Personally I wouldn't trust putting my shoe size on there since he purchased it.

[Mike03]

158. Tragic and Revolting

How can some people even live with themselves? Some might excuse this as being immature pranks and adolescent insensivity, but when I was eleven, twelve, etc.., I knew not the hurt peoples' feelings or torment other students.

Where's the remorse?

Sad, sad, sad.

[Raksha]

160. This is one of the most horrible stories I've ever heard.

It's hard to wrap my mind around such evil.

[LostinVA]

162. And, it is evil, no matter what some posters keep trying to rationalize

Only sick fucks -- sociopaths -- do this kind of thing. This isn't "normal" cruelness or meanness. It's pathological

[mrbluto]

227. Money meet mouth, mouth meet money.

Put your money wear your mouth is with a bit of elbow grease: Please quote anyone on this thread rationalizing the actions of the alleged culprits in this incident.

If you can't then I hope you'll decide to be more precise in your vague diffuse accusations.

If you don't even try or even respond then I'll suppose that someone, not necessarily you, but someone somewhere (not you of course) is making Karl Rove proud with their tactics and using pages cribbed out of the FAUX News playbook.

I look forward to your response.

[iamthebandfanman]

165. I dont see why the other parent cant be charged

id just charge her with child predatory laws...
i mean, grown men get in trouble for making fake myspaces to talk to little girls... and if she was pretending to be a guy that liked the girl then that means she probably talked in a dirty way at some point....

[LisaL]

171. Even if an actual man contacted the girl and talked "dirty," I doubt

anything could have done to him considering her my space page claimed she was 16, as long as that man did not know how old the girl actually was.
In all those "to catch a predator" shows, the pretend age is below 16.
And by the way, "to catch a predator" show surely proves it's legal to pretend to be someone you are not, as there are no actual children involved. These adults were actually pretending to be children in order to "catch a predator."
Yet nobody is dragging the producers of the show, or the men and women pretending to be young teenagers off to jail. In fact most think they are doing a valuable service.

[TorchTheWitch]

178. You must have missed the article how one guy from there was convicted

Of the people who got caught on that "To Catch a Preditor" show, the first one to go to court just got convicted...

http://www.news-press.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071116/NEWS0119/711160391/1075
Clifford Wallach went inside the house of a 14-year-old boy only to get chocolate chip cookies for him and his son, not for sex.

That was his defense, but it crumbled Thursday, as Wallach was found guilty of one count each of attempted lewd and lascivious battery and child abuse by a Lee County jury that deliberated about two hours.

Wallach, 41, of Naples, was one of 24 men busted in "Dateline NBC's" "To Catch a Predator" sex sting in Fort Myers in April 2006. His is the first case to go to trial.

[LisaL]

183. Did you not read my post? 14 is below 16.

The girl's my space page claimed she was 16.
If an actual man contacted the girl through my space, not knowing she was actually 13, but thinking she was 16, I am not sure he could have been charged with anything.

[NorthernSpy]

189. whether it's legal to pretend to be someone you're not depends...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2301532&mesg_id=2308772

If your intent is to "annoy, abuse, threaten, or harass" a child, then golly -- that just might be illegal!

[LisaL]

198. Oh my. God forbid anyone on line annoys someone with a post.

Frankly, I find it nearly impossible to believe this was passed into law. Annoy? WTF is that?
Many things annoy me, including on-line posts right here on DU. Apparently that means a lot of posters could go to jail.

[treestar]

186. This is tragic and awful and sad, but the suicide can't be reduced

to that as to its cause. That alone does not drive a mentally healthy person to suicide, and so the causes of such a terrible act for one so young must go way deeper than that. I feel bad for the parents because they can't help but feel responsible or as if it is something they did or did not do that had to do with the situation their child was in mentally, but professional help was needed, and that should have included not being on the internet. The life of a 13 year old is easier to control than the internet. Anyone struggling with depression at that age needs constant supervision, help and treatment. Where did she even get the chance to kill herself? She should never have been alone.

[aikoaiko]

190. For those who study suicidology

How common are suicide like these? I don't know what to call it -- an impulse suicide.

[LisaL]

195. The child was reportedly on anti-depressants.

I am not sure as to the kind of suicide this would qualify as. I am also not sure as to how anyone can claim the child has killed herself as a direct result of this hoax.