Barry Bonds indictment a scam.

[WileEcoyote]

It's one of those cases where there are no victims in an alleged illegal activity but the prosecution takes on a case simply because the defendant has much notice in the media. That just isn't right.

Associated Press Writer Chris Weber in Los Angeles contributed to this report.

SAN FRANCISCO — The home run king wasn't home free after all. Barry Bonds was indicted for perjury and obstruction of justice Thursday and could go to prison instead of the Hall of Fame for telling a federal grand jury he did not knowingly use performance-enhancing drugs.

The indictment came just three months after the San Francisco Giants star broke Hank Aaron's career home run record, and it culminated a four-year investigation into steroid use by elite athletes.

But for all the speculation and accusations that clouded his pursuit of Aaron, Bonds was never identified by Major League Baseball as testing positive for steroids, and personal trainer Greg Anderson spent most of the last year in jail for refusing to testify against his longtime friend.


Discretion is an important characteristic in a U.S. attorney. It's one thing if someone perjures himself in a murder trial or major bank embezzlement probe. Quite another if it's to protect himself or someone else in a matter that does not affect the public welfare at all. Where no damages have occurred.

Let's say your room mate is indicted for a minor offense. You know that over all he's a nice guy and that while he probably did commit some small fry illegal activity you don't feel that he should go to jail for it. Maybe he was desperate for cash and put into a position not likely ever to be repeated again. Like he takes five hundred dollars in a mild fraud case in order to pay his doctor bills. So you mildly alter some public testimony on his behalf.

He accepts a plea bargain, pays restitution and gets off with community service.

You go to jail for perjury. This stuff happens folks.

In the case of the Barry Bonds indictment it's as if the U.S. attorney is looking for a way to get his own name in the paper just because he can. Not because any kind of public protection or justice is served. A waste of tax payer dollars just so some turkey of a prosecutor can get to see Barry Bonds one on one in a Federal court room.

That is what this is all about. As if the Justice dept. didn't have bigger fish to fry. A true witch hunt folks and now there are real victims:

You and me.

Barry Bonds has never tested positive for any controlled substance use during his whole career in the majors.

[malaise]

1. Very good article n/t

[kanrok]

2. Hmmm...this argument sounds familiar!

"She wasn't covert" comes to mind..."there was no underlying crime" also is a tad bit familiar as well. He either committed perjury and obstruction of justice or not. If he did, he deserves to be punished for them. End of story.

[cboy4]

3. Oh, haven't you heard about the U.S. Attorney who

filed the charges?

Big Republican who donated $2,000 to Bush-Cheney in 2004.

http://www.newsmeat.com/fec/bystate_detail.php?last=Schools&first=Scott

Oh, you want to know why he's there?

Because he replaced Kevin Ryan, one of eight U.S. attorneys fired by Bush.
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Bush_adminis ...

Yea, I'm sure Mr. Schools is fair and balanced.

I've never seen so many Democrats supporting a Republican in my life.


edit fix broken link

[MadHound]

6. I've never seen so many Democrats ready to excuse cheating and lying

All because they're fanboys of a cheating sports superstar.

[cboy4]

7. Which player are you talking about? The one who

has never violated a single Major League Baseball rule or failed a single drug test?

I thought so.

[blondeatlast]

16. With all due respect, you are okay with perjury? It's not the steroids they are indicting him for. n

[WileEcoyote]

17. I'm OK with perjury if

If the underlying "crime" is victim-less. Why fuck with it?

Prosecute crimes where there are people actually hurt.

Barry Bonds didn't hurt anyone. It's just a fool GOP U.S. Attorney out to make a name for himself because he can.

Plenty of other major crimes to go after but they have to harass a baseball star just for the hell of it.

Go after the stinking unscrupulous Chinese importers of toxic toys.

Not a baseball player.

Come on!

[madokie]

20. what about the shield for his elbow

sometimes its referred to as a prosthesis that it's said gives him a mechanical advantage.

[MadHound]

29. Sorry, but Barry did hurt people

But subverting justice and lying to the grand jury, he hurt all of us, he hurt our justice system. He hurt a generation of school kids who idolized him, either by letting them down, or by setting the example that lying, cheating, and using steroids is somehow a good thing to do. He hurt the game of baseball by making a mockery out of two of the most sacred records in the sport.

Sorry, but your protest rings hollow, it is simply another protest from another fanboy.

[MadHound]

24. Boy, are you going to be in for a rude awakening in the next few months and years

What are you going to say when testimony comes to light stating that yes, Bonds juiced? What are you going to say when Bonds is convicted on all four counts? What are you going to say when Bonds comes out of prison, a shadow of his former self since he won't have access to steroids, and sheds the weight like McGwire did?

Nothing more pathetic than a fanboy in denial.

Oh, and as far as the meme you're spreading around these threads that the prosecutor is a Bush appointee, you're correct. However the judge, you know, the one who comes down with the final ruling, is a Clinton appointee. Hmmmm, what are you going to say when he swings that gavel and puts Barry in prison?

Must suck to try and defend a cheater and a liar.

[cboy4]

49. The next few months and years? Gee, I wonder how much

this is going to cost taxpayers?

And there's nothing more pathetic than being so angry and obsessed with an athlete like you are.

Some people are even comparing him to OJ Simpson now.

It's a mob mentality out of control.

[crimson333]

43. he did fail one test

except for the amphetamine's test he failed.......not steroids, but he did fail the test for one drug and violated one MLB policy :)

[bullimiami]

4. sorry fans. bonds is a cheater and a liar. everyone knows he took steroids.

just look at him.
baseball obviously let him get away with it but it was still illegal as far as drug laws went.

i have no respect for the home run monsters of the steroid age, it wasnt right.

[MadHound]

5. Sorry, but perjury and obstructing justice are crimes against all of us

They are crimes against our justice system.

And this isn't over some minor offense, this concerns lying about the use of an illegal drug. Not just banned, but a controlled substance that is illegal for use without a prescription.

In the larger picture, this is about cheating on a national stage, which is what Bonds did. Like it or not, Bonds is a public figure, a role model and influence on our nation's youth. What sort of message does he send to them when he cheats to get records, when he uses a dangerous drug in order to get ahead. Steroid use has become epidemic in our high schools, where it is destroying young lives and bodies. These kids see their role models, like Bonds or McGwire, getting ahead by using drugs to alter their body, by cheating. These kids figure hey, if Barry can do it, so can I. And they ruin their body, ruin their life, all by imitating these public figures.

Then there is the simple matter of fairness. Frankly, millions of people across the country, myself included, find it a travesty that Bonds owns two of the most sacred baseball records because he cheated to get them. It doesn't seem right, it doesn't seem fair. Now, with this indictment, there might be a chance to put things right. Frankly, I'm hoping that if Bonds is convicted Selig will strip Bonds of his records, McGwire too, and revert those records back to those we know who didn't cheat, Aaron and Maris. It would go a long way to returning trust, confidence and integrity to the game of baseball.

This is not as trivial as you are trying to make it, sorry. It is, whether you like it or not, a matter that concerns our national past time, on issues that effect the youth of our country, and that, like it or not, deals with the national psyche. You may consider it trivial, but that is no reason not to prosecute it. Many court cases are considered trivial, but justice is justice, whether the matter is large or small.

Besides, how would you feel to be Mr. Anderson, Bond's supposed best buddy from childhood? The man Bonds left to rot in jail, because Anderson was loyal to Bonds, refusing to testify against him, and spending a year in jail because of it. Frankly, I would be pissed at Bonds for not doing the right thing and coming clean.

No, Bonds hasn't tested positive(though the Justice Dept. prosecutor is now saying that he indeed now has positive tests). But really now, are you that much of a fanboy? Look at Bonds physique, at how swollen he's become. Look at his career, where he has defied the natural aging process and rather than slowing down, he has instead done his best work. There really is only one explanation for this, and that is that Bonds cheated and used steroids. You may want to ignore it, trivialize it, try to wish it away, but the fact simply remains that yes, Bonds is a cheater.

Despite what you say, damage has occurred. It may not be tangible, it may not even be monetary(though one could easily make the case that there was). But the damage was done none the less. And that is why the Justice Dept. is pursuing criminal charges. And you know what, I hope that they come back with a fat guilty verdict, that Bond is put in jail, and that he is stripped of his records. Then justice will have been served.

[WileEcoyote]

18. A bullshit perspective on life.

Be just deserts if your company prosecuted you for taking an asthma inhaler.

[MadHound]

23. Umm, why are you trivializing this?

Taking an asthma inhaler is a few magnitudes in order less than a national sports here, role model(whether he likes it or not) committing perjury(when he was even testifying under immunity) and obstructing justice. In fact it would be the difference between a single misdemeanor count and the four felony counts that Bonds is currently facing.

Stop trying to deliberately trivialize these crimes just because you're some sort of fanboy. Any objective person can tell that these are serious charges, yet I suppose some fans simply can't except that.

What will it take to convince you? Conviction? Nah, you'll probably claim he was railroaded or some such. When he shrinks to a shadow of himself after he stops juicing in the next few years? Nah, you'll probably claim he's on Atkins or some such.

There are few things more pathetic than a fanboy trying to defend the indefensible.

[jacksonian]

32. railroading it is

you lost me on the "shadow of himself" argument. Show me some real evidence drugs cause home runs, because I haven't seen any and I have really tried.

The BIG question here is what is the moral line? If I use an asthma inhaler to control my genetically induced asthma so I can breath and play sports, how is this different from using a drug to to allow my genetically inferior muscles play sports? At the very generous the moral difference is an extremely fine line.

The government here has created a false argument about the "purity" of sports, persecuted in the press anyone supposedly harming that "purity", and is now prosecuting people for allegedly not wanting to be persecuted. All of this with no evidence at all of real public harm or any evidence that a persecution of Bonds will have any effect on that public good.

If anyone can point me to any evidence that drugs actually enhance a baseball player's home run ability I would be grateful, because I have studied the issue, know a lot about it, and can find none. None at all. Ths IS a sham, and all the righteous moral indignation doesn't make it different.

[MadHound]

37. Oh God, you are reaching with your justification and rationalization here

It is not only a matter of purity, it is the matter of creating a level playing field, one in which your natural gifts aren't enhanced by chemistry. Not only that, but as I've said earlier, like it or not, professional athletes are role models for children and young adults. It would be one thing if they wanted to destroy their body with steroids(Lyle Alzaedo), but their celebrity status influences younger people to do steroids, thus fucking up their bodies also.

And if you don't think that Bonds is going to be a shadow of himself in a few years, look at Mark McGwire, Alzaedo, or any of the other know juicers after they retired, how they lost pounds and shed mass. You're looking at what's going to happen to Bonds in just a few years.

But moral and ethical arguements aside, let's take a look at the legal end of this. The man was given immunity for his grand jury testimony. A get out of jail free card. All he had to do was tell the truth. Yet he couldn't even do that. He lied and perjured himself, and obstructed justice in the process. Those are major felonies. Do you really want to continue a man who has committed such crimes? Or will you come up with some other outrageous justification for Bonds actions?

[MyNameGoesHere]

33. What the hell are you talking about way out there from planet zorbon?

You equate an inhaler with lying to a jury? And what deserts is that anyway? Mojave? Sahara?

[cboy4]

8. This gives you an idea of the mock outrage by

so many people:


"Please. That guy has been juiced out of his mind. No one, and I mean NO ONE has their height suddenly shoot up a couple inches past their 21st birthday."

:wtf:

Are you kidding me?!?

That was taken from a post at DU.

Someone thinks steroids made Barry Bonds TALLER!!!!

This person knows zero about any of this, but was more than happy to pile on.

It's a total mob mentality.

[fasttense]

9. It only goes to show you...

You can lie to a grand jury about a traitor to the country, you can lie about the need to go to war, you can even lie about an oath to uphold the Constitution, you just can't lie about baseball. That's where Americans draw the line.

[cboy4]

11. Oh snap.

And I bet there are people who hate Barry Bonds more than *

[madinmaryland]

47. I think at least half of DU does.

:scared:



:rofl:

[peekaloo]

26. to misquote Tom Hanks from 'A League of Their Own' "there's no lying in baseball". nt.

[KharmaTrain]

10. Perjury Is Perjury

The caveat of a person is innocent until proven guilty needs to be included here. After all these years, charges against Bonds have finally been filed and we, and more important, a jury of peers, will determine if there was something illegal here. While "Juice" wasn't "illegal" by baseball rules or that Bonds tested clean...that's an issue the Mitchell report will deal with. This is about the illegal distribution of these drugs by Balcor and if these people willingly participated in this crime. If Bonds purposely lied to cover up his use and its proven otherwise, he's committed perjury, period. There's no maybe or could be, he purposely lied in a criminal investigation and there are consequences for that.

A bad DA is always "ratted out"...we've seen several of these Gonzo DAs get their heads handed to them in the courts, so the political element here in miniscule...and the DA didn't lie to a grand jury, it appears Bonds did. Now how big a lie or how bad, that's what sentencing guidelines and the jury will decide. But to downplay the lying here is to dismiss what to this point has been a properly conducted legal inquiry. If the facts are different, we will see in the court of law...not in the media.

[SoCalDem]

12. "Immunity" means TELL THE F'ING TRUTH, and you will not be punished

BUT if you lie, and it's found out that you LIED, you are "so screwn"..

:)

[MethuenProgressive]

13. "one of those cases where there are no victims" Fraud always has "victims"

Send Squeaky to the state pen for a few decades.

[galileo3000]

14. I'm convinced he is guilty.

I'm glad his baseball has an asterisk on it.

[WileEcoyote]

19. You guys sound like republicans

People who'd impeach a hummer.

[madokie]

21. republicans, huh

lets see what happens at a trial, see what comes out concerning his performance and enhancement thereof

[galileo3000]

22. ...whatever...

hardly compelling. I've never been swayed by ad hominem arguments. If bonds goes free, I still will not recognize his nothing accomplishment, just like I don't recognize the verdict in the simpson criminal trial. guilty.

[cboy4]

50. Oh here we go. Comparing OJ Simpson, an accused

double killer with Barry Bonds, who hurt ???

[Syrinx]

15. I thought maybe considering the timing, it was to deflect Kerik, Regan...

[librechik]

39. me too--odd timing indeed.

Curveball Bush ordered up a show trial to tie up the newsholes so they have a reason not to cover real graft and corruption.

[BadgerLaw2010]

25. Simple solution: Don't lie to grand juries. That's one of the dumbest crimes out there.

Your testimony is secret and you can get immunity if you're worried about something.

So no gain and enormous downside. I fail to see a reason or an excuse for doing this.

[SidDithers]

27. Were you similarly defending Scooter Libby?...

after all, he was only charged with Perjury and Obstruction of Justice too. And those are victimless crimes, right?

Sid

[jacksonian]

30. not all lies are the same

our "moral" leaders don't want to admit that because it makes everything complicated and nuances have to be considered, but IT IS TRUE.

Libby lied about outing a CIA agent. Bonds' accusation isn't in the same league at all, don't play moral-rightist with me. There is, and always will be, gray areas in the world of rules.

[SidDithers]

31. Not when it comes to the legal system...

you tell the truth, or you don't. Not much grey area there.

Sid

[jacksonian]

34. that's BS and you know it

at some point the legal question comes down to did or didn't do it, but until that time there is much latitude to prosecute or not, and after the trial there is much latitude to how much punishment is given. There are social issues of how much harm is done and what the proper remedy is. I.e., gray areas even within the law.

So you are saying all lies are to be dealt with the same legal hammer? No other circumstances considered?

[SidDithers]

44. The "did or didn't do it" question here is lying to the Grand Jury ...

not whether or not Bonds took steriods, and investigators seem to think he lied to the Grand Jury 19 times. If the integrity of the justice system is to be protected, lying to the Grand Jury needs to be dealt with every time.

Sid

[jacksonian]

46. i understand your argument, but it's reductionist

you see, I'm also a party to this action as a citizen of the US, they are to be acting on my/our behalf.

And this is just sham justice, frankly and simply. FIVE FELONY COUNTS?

The issue is this in the public good, what is going on here. Some of the larger issues:

Let's agree that drug use for personal enhancement is controllable by the Federal gov. as medical treatment. And that cetain compounds in use by althletes are enherently dangerous and should be restricted in their use.

Now a government acting in good faith would see this a medical debate. Instead it has gone after a few athletes in one single sport with laws designed to capture heroin trafickers. There is very little public good I can see in hauling Bonds and others in front of Senate committees for trivial societal matters with promises of immunity and then fine-combing perjury convictions out of it.

Matter of fact I can find very little public good going on at all in this criminality. The inuenndo left that all ball players do it and get away with it does no one any good, it just creates fear and skepticism. The actual drugs involved that government has such criminal interest are at least within families of drugs that provide many practical medical benefits.

You see, sports medicine has oftentimes been a driving force behind treatments that benefit our range of movement and acuity, because in large part athletes are more willing to use experimental means for data to be gathered. We actually benefit when a substance is made for Bonds or whoever that increases his abitity, because it gets adapted for your Aunt Sally's arthritis. Or might someday, get it?

Well, some other people figured this out, too. Some people with a distrust of science and positions within the Repug party for whom it's way too much science improving lives. Forget the stupid veracity of a sporting match here - there are much bigger issues. Why the government needs fall guys to treat like heroin dealers. All the stupid mistakes of the drug wars - criminals and public shame and prosecutors and infiltrations and drug tests, yes more and more drug tests. we do this all over again, this time with drugs that just a tad, say, too beneficial? And what about that public good?

It isn't justice to wade into a moral gray area and start throwing moral certainies around. Its far more political, all designed to create more lynch mobs, which is what we got. A legal lynch mob cheating rationality, after all, the guy's a jerk. Justifies it, eh?

[jacksonian]

28. yep, this is a sham

baseball is just the wrong sport to looking for drug enhancements, because it is so much a coordination/recognition game, not one that relies on pure strength.

Football is much more influenced by drugs but you don't hear sportswriters moaning about football records being tainted. Why? Because baseball fans are more limited to big cities/democratic stringholds than other sports.

If the government was really serious about sending messages to youngsters, they would shut down wrestling and indict wrestlers who have far more influence on young bodybuilders than baseball players. What, those guys don't use steriods? But these fans are far more Republican, and would not like it. Better to slander a city-sport.

The whole source of this "outrage" is right-wing Christians who don't like the idea of medical science providing enhancements for people. Someday we will all have more real opportunity to enhance our eyes, our intelligence, our youthfulness through science, and there are people who don't want us going there.

They are trying to limit our lives to accept our genetic fates without question, without the true human strategy of using our brains. That is the big issue, and the use of our ridiculous "purity" ideas about sporting events is how they are getting their meme across.

[kanrok]

45. You have a point about the skill needed to hit a baseball

Bonds is (still) a skilled baseball player. Probably one of the best ever in terms of pure skill. Hitting a baseball is hard. Especially when major league pitchers are throwing the kind of stuff they do. But hitting a baseball is not just hand-eye coordination. The flight of a baseball is influenced by strength as well as timing.

[spanone]

35. if he lied to prosecuters he's screwn....tell the truth barry, it will set you free

it's not the sex, it's the lie

[JackRiddler]

36. Baseball juices, Bonds wins the lottery.

Now we can scapegoat a player for a common practice that without a doubt was condoned and covered for by the teams themselves. Bonds has won the steroids lottery twice - first by getting the HR record (as opposed to cancer, as Giambi did), and now by being the designated scapegoat for a whole culture of "performance enhancement."

For the next two years he will also be pressed into the same function for racist America as was played in the 1990s by OJ Simpson, except Bonds didn't commit a murder but was only one of dozens or hundreds involved in the ML baseball juicing complex, which is debatably a "crime." Is juicing by pros wrong? Yes, especially for its influence on the 99 percent of athletes doing it who are in high school and college, and who will never make a major league. Did everybody in the game juice? Absolutely not, and there is no moral justification. Did many juice (and still do thanks to HGH), with cover from their teams? You be the judge: Bonds burns at the stake, while the franchises will wring their hands with the rest of the mob as they feign innocence.

[Kolesar]

41. I don't know the length of the story, but I am in general agreement with you

"a common practice that without a doubt was condoned and covered for by the teams themselves"
"Bonds burns at the stake, while the franchises will wring their hands with the rest of the mob as they feign innocence."

[EFerrari]

38. I agree. There's definitely shadiness here. Check this out, Wiley

'But for all the speculation and accusations that clouded his pursuit of Aaron, Bonds was never identified by Major League Baseball as testing positive for steroids, and personal trainer Greg Anderson spent most of the last year in jail for refusing to testify against his longtime friend.

Anderson did not comment as he was released from prison shortly after the indictment was handed up, but his attorney, Mark Geragos, said the trainer didn't cooperate with the grand jury.

"This indictment came out of left field," Geragos said. "Frankly, I'm aghast. It looks like the government misled me and Greg as well, saying this case couldn't go forward without him."'

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071116/ap_on_sp_ba_ne/bbn_bonds_indicted_52

[WileEcoyote]

48. It's a bull shit indictment

Ever met a Bush appointee Federal prosecutor? I have. He was an unprincipled asshole.

Here's where I was: In front of a jury only with immunity unlike Bonds. The dick head U.S. Attorney asks:

"Did you say such and such to person B"?

I reply no.

"Now again, Mr. Wiley, I ask you to try and answer that question truthfully this time"

I answer that I DID answer truthfully previously.

"Under penalty of perjury and Obstruction of Justice I will ask you, Mr. Wiley: 'Did you say such and such to person B' Just one more time if you would like to change your testimony"?

(he was about getting ready for the bailiff to put me in handcuffs).

I ask the head of the jury to allow me to clarify my earlier statement and reply.

"Ladies & gentlemen of the jury I have answered all the U.S. Attorney's questions truthfully. Up to and including the last one he's asked me several times previously. The problem lies not with my answers but his question.

The U.S. Attorney has asked me three times if I said "such and such to person B'. In fact I never said 'such and such' to person B at all. So my answer was completely true.

I did however say 'such and such to PERSON A'. So my testimony was at least technically accurate"

I copied my reply from Bill Clinton's public statement about Lewinski just to upset him!

Boy was that U.S. Attorney pissed! I made him look like the idiot he was. hee hee hee. He had a permanent wave hairdo that could scrub a dirty toilet. In way that was what he was using his real head for.

You can't take your own attorney into an immunized jury setting (he has to stay locked out). Well while my attorney was waiting outside when he heard the U.S. Attorney fuming about how pissed he was at me for making him look like an idiot. especially using what the U.S. Attorney called "Clintonian answers?

My attorney and I get a huge belly laugh down the elevator ride.

Free at last! Free at last!

[ShaneGR]

40. Keep in mind, the government did take lab samples from Bonds Trainer

So while he may have never tested positive with MLB, the governments tests may have come up positive. The indictment says there are positive tests. Incidentally, being indicted by a federal grand jury on 5 felony counts means only one thing, you're SCREWED.

[Kolesar]

42. Floyd Landis

discuss