Abused

[JFN1]

I, am not a parent.

Never had kids, always wanted 'em, it never happened for us.

I am not a parent, but as an uncle, I am called upon to act in the capacity of a parent, from time to time.

So I see a lot, from the outside. I see the dynamic of the family unit, parents and children. And having once been a child, and having parents, I have at least some framework upon which to mount my impressions and experiences.

That being said, over the past several months, as I have watched the developing wrestling match my sister has undertaken with my oldest nephew (16 years old), a thought has occurred to me.

Kids today, must AGREE to be parented to, by their parents.

The kids today must agree that their parents have responsibility for,and thus authority, over them. Without this agreement, kids today are free to run the show. And by free, I mean free in the legal sense.

The Department of Children and Family Services, or whatever it may be called where you live, has run amok - at least it has in my sister's state.

For example, in my sister's state, the following actions are considered abuse:

- Sitting a child in the corner
- All forms of corporal punishment
- Sending a child to bed without supper
- "Yelling" at a child
- Restricting a child to their room for "extended" periods

I was told this myself, when I called and asked them. I just could not believe these things were considered abuse when my sister told me, so I called and checked. A very sober young woman answered my questions without grimace or concern, and explained to me how very fragile children are these days, and why the State must step in to ensure such horrors as making a child miss dinner for repeated infractions of a responsible rule, just never happen. This earnest young woman made it seem the fate of the world rests upon young "Timmy" being allowed to go through life, without the scars which would surely result, from him standing in a corner, for throwing a fork at his sister's head, during a post-dinner fight.
. . .

Now, I don't know about the rest of you, but NONE of this stuff was considered abuse when I grew up - and I do suspect, it is the same for most of you. Heck, my 7th grade science teacher once had me down for 700 swats because of my smart mouth ("put Mr. Smarty down for another 20 swats" , "Sure, why not add another 50 to that?" , etc...) - he broke the paddle on my ass on swing number five, cutting short my paddling - and was still teaching when I went back for my 20 year high school reunion. When I told my mom about it, she laughed, asking, "What'd you do to make him so mad?" My mom knows I'm a smart ass, and rightly believed I had earned Mr. Sparks' wrath. Did he go overboard? Sure, he did. Did it scar me? I would have to say...mmmm, no.

Here are some other children who, like me, were "abused," by today's standards:

Martin Luther King, Jr.
Andy Warhol
Muhammad Ali
Jane Addams
Maya Angelou
Howard Hughes
Louis Armstrong
Henry Ford
Bill Cosby
Sandra Day O'Connor
Ronald Reagan

Seems like the "abused" children of the last century managed to accomplish a thing or two, despite living in an environment where getting your butt smacked with a paddle constituted a lesson, not a trauma. And I am not saying child abuse does not occur, nor do I suggest it is not a problem.

But haven't things swung a bit too far the other way? Isn't it a problem when a child can threaten to, or actually call DCFS on a parent if they don't like the discipline they are receiving at home, and get the parent "in trouble?" What kind of a society can grow from a system that rewards the avoidance of personal responsibility, and makes said avoidance a choice without consequence?

[EFerrari]

1. I agree with that sober young woman. Depriving a child of food

is not a learning experience unless you're teaching fear or pain.

[JFN1]

6. Really?

So when I was 9, and threw a rock at a passing car, which cracked the windshield, then ran, and then lied about it when the guy came to our door, and was grounded for two weeks and sent to bed without supper that night (which was my favorite, lasagna, and my mom knew it), I was actually being abused? I should also add I was denied dessert for the entire time of my grounding, and lost my allowance for a month.

I always thought this experience aided in teaching me the importance of honesty, and that there are always consequences attached to our actions. After all, I remember it today, and what I remember does not make me cringe - I did just tell thousands of people about it.

So, since I do not feel abused, and feel the lessons I was taught from my actions - and my parent's actions that day - have served me throughout my life since then, is this just a delusion? I'm really damaged from this, by my parents?

Do you really believe this?

[EFerrari]

8. I know it to a certainty. What makes you think

that treating someone as as badly as you were treated is somehow all right?

[JFN1]

11. I'm not saying that

I am saying things have gone too far the other way. We MUST protect children from abuse - but in our zest to do that, I am asking - have we outlawed plain old discipline in the process? I fear we have, based upon my limited experience, and thus I am soliciting opinions and seeking information, by posting this - no offense is intended.

And for the record - I don't feel my parents were ever abusive to any of us - we've got a professor of mathematics, a soldier, and a police officer out of the family. And my mom was an anthropology professor, my dad a geophysicist.

[EFerrari]

16. I think we might be able to agree here: the government is more

interested in limiting their liability than in the welfare of the kids. That's were this legislation comes from. And, by itself, it's not helpful for kids, parents or surrogate parents.

[kickysnana]

41. Self delete...have a headache...

[treestar]

125. It was all OK except for the supper

There's no need for that punishment when there are others available, is there?

I don't know that the kid would be "scarred" for life, but that punishment is archaic. The kid needs three meals a day, grounding him is enough. The dessert part I don't have a real problem with, though it is a crummy idea as if enshrines dessert in a way that is not good for one's future diet. When you're an adult and free to eat it whenever you want, it'll be too attractive as a result of having been used that way. In today's weight-obsessed society, at least.

[SammyWinstonJack]

150. All of those punishments and more were used on me by a stepmother who

resented me and my brother and took it out on us. And yes it did scar me for life. And no I wasn't a bad kid/teenager. Never got in trouble and never talked back, mostly kept too myself/out of sight when at home. Out of sight=out of mind and out of the line of abuse.

[bighart]

138. not to be nosy or try to justify anything,

but do you have children yourself? If so at any point were any of your children intentionally defiant to your authority? Parenting is a very demanding role and I do not believe that role necessarily includes being their friend sometimes. The way I see it a parents role is to teach a child to be a responsible and productive citizen who is caring a compassionate toward the needs and pain of others. Sometimes this requires there to be very uncomfortable consequences for their actions. Some children can be very strong willed and defiant and it sometimes takes rather stern action to get their attention and open their eyes to the pain or hardship the actions they choose to take cause others.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

2. can of worms

opened....

:popcorn:

[Frances]

3. What state are you in?

I thought "time-outs" were acceptable anywhere.

Also, grounding. Grounding, or even just the mention of the word, worked really well for my rebellious teen daughter.

[JFN1]

7. I'm in Oregon

My sister lives in the Mid-West.

I think grounding and such punishments do work well - if the child agrees that the parent has authority over them. But again, it is my opinion that this agreement - not even open for debate when I was growing up - is indeed, debatable today.

[cali]

4. sorry, I'm not going to believe you until I see the criteria for child abuse

by the Department of Child and Family Services in Ohio. I straight out don't believe that they consider time out or yelling child abuse. And your personal story, sadly, illustrates where you come from: You may not have been scarred or damaged by what happened to you in 7th grade, but many children would have been. I personally, as a parent, do not believe hitting kids teaches them discipline or much of anything beyond humiliation and that might makes right.

[JFN1]

9. I don't think violence

ever solves anything, myself. But I'm not a parent - so it is an easy opinion for me to hold. For parents, it must be another thing altogether.

And I cannot say for certain what constitutes abuse, as far as yelling and such things - I only know what the lady told me.

[Joe Fields]

21. This is one aspect of the issue that many DUers here just don't get.

There is a MAJOR difference between physical abuse (violence) and corporal punishment.

[Midlodemocrat]

75. No there isn't. Next?

[bighart]

139. Yes, There IS.

Next

[Midlodemocrat]

143. Nope. Hitting is hitting. The only variable is the degree of physical

damage.

[Joe Fields]

162. You are obviously correct in saying "hitting is hitting."

However we are talking about the distinction between hitting and corporal punishment. Yes, there is a difference. Willfully choosing to ignore that there is a difference may make you feel good, but it doesn't make you right.

[Ohio Joe]

157. Ohio laws

A quick rundown can be found here:

http://www.fdno.org/laws/abuse.html

It does not look as strict as what is listed in the OP.

[BoneDaddy]

173. i don't buy it either

here in Jersey they would laugh at you if DYFS was called in for that bull.

[fenriswolf]

5. i got the belt as a kid

when i was very young, my stance is if a child does something when they are young and what they have done is dangerous they need to have a physical reminder of why what they did was wrong, if the child can reason i would just assign chores (either physical or mental)

[cali]

15. Really? Up until what age do you think

"a physical reminder" is neccessary? How old were you when you stopped being hit with a belt?

[fenriswolf]

30. i was about eight when i was able to reason

and discuss with my dad why i should be punished and how.

[H2O Man]

70. Valid question.

Thank you.

[Redstone]

45. Any parent who stirkes a child with a belt should be arrested. Period.

Redstone

[Midlodemocrat]

76. Absolutely. Frankly, I would like to go the way of Sweden and outlaw

hitting a child, period. Just because a child is smaller, an adult can hit them? What kind of fucked up logic is that?

And before all the pro-spankers come after me. Yes. I do believe what you are doing is abusive and there is nothing you will say that will change my mind. Hitting a child is abusive. Period.

[MLFerrell]

106. You must have some well-behaved children.

:eyes:

[Midlodemocrat]

111. I do.

:eyes:

Probably because they weren't ever beaten.

[seabeyond]

82. we got the belt too. i didnt like it. i didnt do wrong often or at least

i hid what i did wrong really well which has served me well as an adult.

belt wasnt abusive. we deserved it when we got it. my parents didnt use it in anger. there was always love. they were kick ass parents.

[treestar]

133. So did I and I imagine it contributed to my later issues with depression

and low self esteem.

Congratulations if you don't have these problems, but it's possible you do.

It's all a combination. I wouldn't consider that alone to have been the problem, but it sure added to my fear of doing anything wrong to a paralyzing point. Anything can be overdone.

[hedgehog]

10. Why do I find myself suspicious that many of the statements in the OP

are perhaps exaggerated or taken out of context?

I have never heard of a single child welfare department so overstaffed that it can afford to send staffers out to make sure young "Timmy" is coddled.

[JFN1]

13. Here's their website

Read it for yourself: http://www.state.il.us/dcfs/child/index.shtml

[hedgehog]

18. Sorry, I don't see the items you mentioned listed as child abuse. nt

[cali]

19. The website does NOT back up your assertions in the OP

From the website:

Child abuse is the mistreatment of a child under the age of 18 by a parent, caretaker, someone living in their home or someone who works with or around children. The

mistreatment must cause injury or put the child at risk of physical injury. Child abuse can be physical (such as burns or broken bones), sexual (such as fondling or incest), or emotional. Neglect happens when a parent or responsible caretaker fails to provide adequate supervision, food, clothing, shelter or other basics for a child.

[JFN1]

24. The details are not listed on the site, I agree

If you read, you will see the assigned 'investigator' makes the determination, personally, as to what specific actions do or do not constitute abuse. Hotline workers make the initial determination, and if the hotline worker suspects abuse, an investigator is assigned within 24 hours (I think).

[Redstone]

46. So you're just making it up. How nice.

Redstone

[XemaSab]

62. Different state, homes.

:P

[Hekate]

12. self delete

good luck

[Joe Fields]

14. Proud to deliver the first rec of the night.

I grew up during those times, and I was never punished out of anger, but out of love. I was never punished, unless I deserved it, and I always knew I deserved it. There were consequences to my poor behavior, and rewards for exemplary behavior.

I do not subscribe to the "free range child" principle, simply because it produces children that eschew responsibility. They tend to adopt an "it wasn't my fault" mentality. I see way too much of that going on these days.

Maybe a lot of it has to do with overworked single parents. Maybe some of it is that parents want to be their child's best friend. There are a lot of factors to consider.

But I do know this much; children want and need their parents to be parents, to set rules, to teach, show them love, and to discipline them when they need it.

Very good post. Thank you.

[cali]

22. Consistent discipline does not mean a parent needs to use

corporal punishment. The OP, for crying out loud, doesn't consider being hit with a paddle until it breaks, abuse.

[Joe Fields]

27. This is your opinion. I definitely do not share it.

Your first mistake as a parent is to try reasoning with a child. They do not possess the cognitive reasoning skills. Naturally, and it should go without saying, that corporal punishment is the LAST resort. I do not advocate violence, lashing out in anger, but rather matter of fact, measured out discipline, when a child has exhausted all other parenting skills. It is a useful tool.

[cali]

31. I hate to break this to you Joe, but

but you don't need to reason with a child to put him or her in time out. And btw, after a certain age, depending on the child, you damn well can reason with them. If you don't think you can reason with a 10 year old, you don't know children. Corporal punishment is not neccessary to raise a good kid. I didn't use it, and my son is a lovely, kind, accomplished young man of 21.

[Joe Fields]

34. Please do not misrepresent what I say, Cali.

You need to go back and re-read what I said.

I'm glad, for your sake, the boy's sake, and the sake of the world that you have turned out such a fine young man.

But I notice that you think in absolutes on this issue. I notice that you choose not to distinguish between the word "hitting," which sends a connotation of using a closed fist in anger, and "slapping," which is entirely different.

You should know that parenting is not an exact science. All kids are different, and there is no one set of parenting skills that work for all.

[cali]

37. I'm sorry, but I think you're parsing. I don't think of hitting

as connotating a closed fist. I daresay I'm not the only one. And no, I don't think in absolutes on this subject. I do know parents who have spanked who have wonderful kids, but it is a choice I would never choose. It takes more time and patience not to use corporal punishment, but it takes an element out of child raising that can be extremely detrimental. Just the thought of "slapping" a child, makes me do a slow burn.

[gollygee]

112. You're right. "Punching" means "hitting with closed fist"

"Slapping" means "hitting open hand"

"Hitting" means "striking with your hand"

[H2O Man]

87. Slapping vs hitting

Child abuse is but one form of domestic abuse. Substitute what you just said in another form: if a man tried to justify "disciplining" his spouse by slapping her, rather than punching her with a closed fist, would any rational person think he was really doing it for her own good?

[nonconformist]

102. Well, it wouldn't be kosher for a man to "ground" his wife either

False imprisonment. Nor would it be acceptable to take away privileges, or any of the other multitude of non-physical discipline tools often used (and encouraged) by parents on their children. Apples and oranges... spouses aren't supposed to discipline each other.

I'm definitely not making an argument for hitting children, but that is a bad analogy.

[H2O Man]

118. Respectfully disagree.

Hitting isn't teaching discipline -- just the opposite. The analogy works as long as one does not have a rigid thought system, as it isn't about discipline in either the parent-child or husband-wife relationship. It's about hitting.

[treestar]

127. True, by the same token that the poster above says the child does

not possess reasoning skills, then how would the child know the difference between being hit deliberately or in anger?

[H2O Man]

134. People who hit others

often try to pass responsibility to the victim. Of course, that is one of the classic errors in thinking that domestic violence treatment targets. Hitting in anger is deliberate.

[Beausoir]

108. Very important point. n/t

[Joe Fields]

169. Another false argument. Are you going to sit there and try to tell me

with a straight face that a child is the equal of an adult in all phases? That they are intellectual equals? That a child automatically knows the difference between right and wrong, the same as an adult? That a child automatically possesses the cognitive reasoning skills as an adult?

You may believe in free range children, but I must tell you that children not only need discipline, they yearn for it, in order to find their way in society.

Having said this, I have never advocated, nor will ever advocate beating a child. It is something that was never done to me, and it is something I have never done to my wonderful son. But yes, there were a handful of times, when I grew up that corporal punishment was applied to me, and there were a handful of times when I have applied it to my son. And, a parent who cannot administer corporal punishment in a calm, measured and loving manner has no business using it as a tool of discipline and teaching. Now, I will tell you straight out that I wasn't abused. And, since my son is in the next room, if you would like to ask him if he feels he was abused, be my guest. I asked him this question last night, and he laughed at the question.

And I feel sorry for anyone married to a spouse who doesn't know any better. They would have their hands full.

[H2O Man]

171. No.

But I will tell you that a person who hits other people is the same as a person who hits other people. And as a person who has children, nieces and nephews, and who has worked for decades in human services with children, I can say without the slightest hesitation that children tend to have a more highly developed sense of right and wrong than most adults.

My work in human services, which has included positions in a school, a private agency, and a mental health clinic, have allowed me an opportunity to work closely with children who were the victims of abuse and neglect; parents who abused and neglected their children; and adults who assaulted their spouses/SOs. I am pretty familiar with both the negative effects of domestic violence, and have heard many, many excuses and rationales on the part of people who feel that they are entitled to deal with anger and frustration by hitting others -- from the "look what you made me do" to the "it was for their own good."

As I sit here typing this, I note that I am in the same room with two of my children, who are happy, intelligent, A+ students, and who never been hit by either their mother or I. We are not "perfect" parents -- there is no such thing. And it isn't like the kids are perfect, or never misbehave. They do -- it's their job to be kids, after all. But there are many goods ways to instill a sense of self-discipline, which is the only legitimate purpose for parental discipline. I'm confident that there is no benefit to hitting them that any rational, intelligent person could identify.

[Joe Fields]

174. I thought as much.

You are like a cop who has had a good dose of the ugly underbelly of life. I must discount your opinion, simply because all you can see is the abuse side, which really isn't a part of this argument. It has only become a part of this argument because some people who have responded to this thread, who share your point of view work closely with children who have really been abused, or have responded because they were really physically and/or mentally terrorized as children themselves.

You and I are talking past each other, my friend. I haven't been talking about parents who slug their children, or rear back and knock their children down with a hard slap to the face, or parents who leave welts and cuts on their children from using leather belts or barber shop razor strops. I am not talking about any type of violence performed by adults on children. And I am not blind to the fact that such physical and mental abuse occurs, and on a much larger scale than many imagine.

There are millions of people from my generation, and generations before who have grown up, getting swatted on their behind, or had their mouth washed out with soap for sassing, or had to go to their room without supper, because they didn't come in from playing with their neighborhood friends in time for dinner, and they weren't abused, nor did they feel as though they were abused. They are tools for discipline and for teaching authority and respect. If you don't subscribe to them, then fine. They weren't the only tools my parents used. In fact, they were rarely used, but do not call that type of parenting abusive, because it isn't. Do not lump it in with throwing things at a child, or giving a child a black eye, a broken arm, or a ruptured spleen, or screaming at a child, calling them names, or whatever can be justifiably called abuse.

As I've said before, parenting is not an exact science, and there are many tools a parent must have to properly raise a child. There was nothing wrong with my father spanking me, the few times I needed it, and there was no abuse involved with my spanking my son, when he was a child, the few times he needed it. My father never disciplined me out of anger. In fact, there was never a time in my life when he raised his voice. He was always calm and measured, in his words and actions. I have never yelled at my son, nor disciplined him out of anger.

You've raised your family. I have raised mine. I'm sure that many aspects of our parenting have been quite similar. And, because we see quite differently on the issue of a couple of the tools used to discipline children, obviously we have used different parenting tools as well. I have raised a son that no parent could possibly be prouder of. Our relationship is one to be cherished. I am sure you feel the same way about your children. I have tried to be as clear on my position regarding this issue as I possibly can. If you still choose to see no distinction between what I believe in, and real, honest to god violence, well then, that is your agenda.

[H2O Man]

175. You miss the point.

But that's not surprising. Sad it results in silly statements about "agenda."

[H2O Man]

85. I would add

that children do have reasoning skills, though angry adults may not recognize this fact. However, if one wanted to suspend reality for a moment, a lack of ability to reason would not be a valid reason to use violence to "discipline" a child. Quite the opposite, in fact.

[cali]

90. That is a very good point indeed.

would one condone hitting a a cognitively disabled child or adult, because their reasoning skills are impaired or different from a "normal" child?

I'm a little surprised there are so many on this thread that seem to be OK with corporal punishment for children.

[bighart]

140. the question I have is was your son ever intentionally defiant

as a small child of 5 or 6? If so what method did you use to get the point across that you not he was in charge?

[cali]

177. yes.

and the method I used up until 5 or so, was timeout. He had to sit on a chair in whatever room as I was in and stay there until he apologized. It usually didn't take more than a few minutes.

[bighart]

178. what about after 5 or 6?

my sister in law has a son that is extremely strong willed and defiant. He is 5 and nothing seems to phase him. She has tried making him sit in time out to no avail, taking away toys, and on and on to no avail. He is one of the kids that a few swats will not work either and is not even worth trying. What would you suggest?

[Redstone]

48. So, if you hit another adult, you get arrested, but it's OK to hit a kid because they're small?

Nice logic.

Redstone

[Joe Fields]

54. Redstone, I am surprised that as a thinking adult, you seem not

to be able to make a distinction between using a closed fist in anger, (which is hitting) and slapping a child on the behind.

You are also old enough to have grown up with plenty of kids, whose parents spanked them, and I would bet they didn't feel abused.

I have never hit my son. I did, however, on rare occasions swat him on the behind. If you choose to look at it as abuse, that's your agenda.

[Heidi]

68. And I'm surprised that you, Joe Fields, as a thinking adult, don't know the definition of "hit."

It's means, essentially, to come in contact with or to strike a blow. The definition makes no distinction between striking the blow with an open or closed hand.

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/hit

[Joe Fields]

163. You remind me of Clinton defining what "is" is.

People who share your position on this issue know the power of using the word "hitting," when trying to make their argument, because they are fully aware of the explosive connotation of the word. That's why they always use the word. While I am fully aware of the definition, I would wager that you would get much different reactions from people if you told them you hit you children, as opposed to if you told those same people that on rare occasions you spanked your children.

[Midlodemocrat]

97. Hitting is swatting, Joe Fields. And it is abuse.

Your trying to justify it as discipline doesn't cut it. Contact with another person to inflict physical hurt is abuse. And, your saying it isn't doesn't make it so.

[Joe Fields]

164. Think about what you are saying.

If you were correct, then that would mean that millions of people from numerous previous generations suffered abuse by corporal punishment, and that is an absurd conclusion to draw. But then, I've seen many absurd conclusions drawn on this issue in this thread.

[nonconformist]

103. If you ground another adult, you'd get arrested

[JFN1]

154. Nice point.

It is a matter of degree. Crossing the line between discipline and abuse can be easy for selfish, out-of-control parents. Using discipline responsibly, will have the intended effect of teaching a child.

[Joe Fields]

165. False argument. The issue of legal guardianship comes into play.

[seabeyond]

93. reasoning has always and still works. i kept hearing kids little ones dont have

the cognitive skills, yet i consistently had more faith in my little ones abilities and they did not disappoint. maybe i did it in a way or at a level they were able to reason. but reasoning has ALWAYS been my number one tool as a parent. and now that kids are 10 and 12 i have two children that kick ass at reasoning, and i am set to go into teenager years with children that appreciate and value reasoning.

i am also not opposed to spanking and dont see it as abuse. the parent in administrating sets the tone of abuse or discipline. two different feels.

i have not needed nor used corporal punishment.

reasoning only works when a parent has put tons of time and energy and thought. shown and taught respect. and is well connected with the child.

[Pithlet]

142. I don't reason with my young children.

The consequences of their misbehavior is immediate and consistent. It doesn't involve hitting them. Refusing to hit your kids doesn't equal coddling.

[JFN1]

28. Ummm, WRONG - -

Please read my post:

My mom knows I'm a smart ass, and rightly believed I had earned Mr. Sparks' wrath. Did he go overboard? Sure, he did.

And Mr. Sparks did love giving out the swats, it is true. But in Mr. Sparks' defense, the paddle was hardly thicker than a ruler, it caused a lot more noise than it ever did pain, and was already cracked from when another boy in another period tried to use it as a fulcrum to move the class fish tank (I think he got swats for cracking it, he must be a serial killer now). I do know we all got a lecture about how Mr. Sparks' paddle was not a classroom tool.

[cali]

32. you didn't call it abuse, you said he went "overbord.

and in this post you're rationalizing the teacher's use of it. I can tell you if any teacher ever hit my kid, there would have been hell to pay.

[JFN1]

40. If all you want to argue is my choice of words

the result will lack substance.

And when I grew up, "swats" were standard discipline in elementary and junior high. If you got called to the principals office, you knew there was a possibility that he would give you swats. And if you received swats, they were always accompanied by a call to the home the next day, to inform the parents of the disciplinary action the school took, which, at least in my house, meant a grounding and extra chores, and likely the cancellation of privileges, which had to be earned back through responsible behavior.

Seems like it worked pretty well in my area. We didn't have any students shooting up their classmates and teachers...

[Midlodemocrat]

77. In his defense? Are you serious? He should have been arrested.

The ONLY reason he was able to get away with what he did is because you were a CHILD. The education system is rife with 'adults' who are only there because they get a thrill out of pushing kids around. Nowadays, it's verbally pushing them around instead of physically. Not much progress.

[seabeyond]

84. isnt that the truth. children need and want, ... demand those boundaries. n/t

[undergroundpanther]

17. Spanking

is abuse period.
Why? Think of it this way.
When a kid lives in a family a kid is totally completely dependent upon the parent, if he gets sick he needs his parents. If he is hurt he needs his parents. For food,the parents, shelter, parents..So inherent to"nuclear" type family arrangements there is a risk of parental stress causing and excusing abuse, because an extreme imbalance of power is there by default. Statistically most child abuse(beyond spanking and humiliation) is done by the kids own parents.Why do you think that is? I think it has to do with stress and abuse of power,parents using kids to dump all their unwanted feelings,frustrations,their own childhood pain etc. into them..Spanking is just another way to dump.

When parents smack their kids already so already dependent upon the parents to"teach 'em a lesson" the kid learns obedience yes but also fear and a deep betrayal that Mommy loves and she hates the kid enough to beat the kids body painfully to make the child obey and not rebel or question this parental domination or parental authority .And tell me where is love in such a thing? Do you think domination is love? Is abuse of power love? Is beating a child to control and dominate them love? Is humiliation ,kindness? NO it is NOT.It is Abuse.

If you want to dominate your child,control who they become,with a smack, and betray their trust in you,a parent spank them. If you want to show them how and why bullying has benefits and how humiliation can be a tool to feel powerful in a culture built on abuse , than spank them. If you want them to believe the world is unsafe and that they cannot even trust their own parents to not hit them and cannot trust them with their bad as well as the good sides,spank them.If you want to show kids they are less than human, don't treat them with at least the same respect of person and body as another adult,than spank them.(BTW kids suffer things at their own parents hands that would be illegal to do to an adult.)

http://www.nospank.net

[JFN1]

20. So what DOES work then?

What can parents do to teach responsibility and compassion and empathy and consequence to children? What forms may these incalculably valuable lessons safely take?

[EFerrari]

23. If there seems to be a problem, one might start with testing.

Before a kid can learn, they need access to their brain. One of my sons is very smart. He was "behavioral" until we figured out that he was ADD and got that handled. That was before ADD existed, of course, lol. But we were lucky and found a doctor who was willing to help figure it out with us.

All those dumb years of nagging and fretting. We needed a doctor. Go figure.

[cali]

25. there are so many ways to teach those things without hitting

how to teach empathy and compassion? I used to take my son to a local nursing home to visit patients, and we worked together at a soup kitchen. Consequences? Time outs are effective if done right. For an older child, judicious use of grounding. Responsibility? not giving a child everything her heart desires, and assigning chores.

[lazyriver]

79. "There are so many ways to teach..." that is so true.

My parents never hit or spanked me or my three younger sisters. We grew into productive, intelligent, respectful adults. Looking back now I can see their approach to discipline took effort, time and dedication. To me, spanking seems to be a short cut to an immediate result. It's almost like cleaning a room by sweeping things under the carpet. Sure the room appears clean at a glance, but the dirt is still there. Spanking forces the desired result in the child creating the illusion the child is exhibiting good behavior. I don't believe it is very effective in teaching the child why a certain behavior is desired thus increasing the chance the child never learns to be good because he or she understands the greater concept of good but rather only to avoid punishment.

I think if parents put in the effort required to raise kids with proper discipline and teach them how to respect others, there is no need for spanking or any physical punishment. The key is utilizing and implementing all those other ways to teach them from the very beginning.

[VLC98]

94. Excellent post. I totally agree with you. nt.

[ehrnst]

147. spanking, hitting and otherwise degrading children is the lazy way to parent

It's the first resort of the abusive, dim, and failed parent.

To use physical pain to modify behavior requires no thought, just reflex.

It's equivalent to using a child as a toilet for rage and unresolved issues.

I am a child that grew up with such a parent. It had the opposite effect of what my father wanted - I do not respect or fear him - and I grew up learning to lie to him at the drop of a hat, because I didn't see him as a rational person.

[lazyriver]

153. I'm very sorry you had to learn the lesson first hand.

My best friend grew up in a house like that but his mother was the abuser and his father a silent but mostly absent witness whose job kept him away for weeks at a time. This friend learned to lie to her too. He never respected her and stopped fearing her when he grew big enough to hit back. He spent many summers at my house when we were kids and hates her to this day. She and his father are exactly what you described "abusive, dim...failed parents".

[ehrnst]

160. My relationship with my parents has healed somewhat with time, and I've grown up.

One of the things that I found remarkable in some of my friends (and husband) who are not materialistic is that they had the experience of emotional plenty as kids - bountiful love, attention and respect, no matter what the financial situation. They said that they never thought of themselves as poor, that there was enough of what they needed to go around.

In my dad's defense, he was diagnosed at 55 with sleep apnea, likely due to a nose break at 14. Sleep apnea can lead to anxiety and short temper. He was also abused and bullied as a kid. He now is much more level, due to the cpap, and I work very hard to imagine what it was like to be 18, have a baby, and no money. He was a lit fuse, and resentful of the demands of parenthood. When we wanted some toy that was pricey, he just accused us of being greedy and ungrateful. When we wanted to do something that would inconvenience him in his favorite activities, we were accused of being selfish and self centered.

I now try to extend the understanding to him that I wish he had extended to me when I was a kid.

I waited until I was 40 to have kids - not just for the financial security, but for the personal maturity that would allow for the sacrifices in my social and financial life that really being there for him require. I won't expect my son to provide for my needs, emotional and otherwise. I want him to feel bounty, so he won't seek it in things.

I also have to wonder how much of this massive materialism goes back to the depression - and the baby boomers that were born just after that. Our culture has pretty much followed their whims and priorities.

[woo me with science]

53. It depends on the child.

Interesting research lately in this area, which considers kids, roughly, as coming from two different groups. The first group comes wired with anxiety when they do things wrong. For these kids, not very much discipline is necessary, because they internalize things and will avoid trouble to avoid the negative feelings that come with it-guilt at displeasing the parent, anxiety about repercussions, etc.

Other kids are relatively fearless, and they are the more difficult ones to steer in the right direction. Low anxiety as a personality trait supposedly characterizes the bulk of kids with severe discipline problems.

Most research is suggesting that using authoritarian discipline just backfires with these kids. They will fight back or just ignore it and escalate the behaviors. New studies suggest that the fearless ones who do well in the long run tend to have a very strong, positive, and communicative relationship with at least one parent. The hypothesis is that they ultimately choose to stay out of trouble because of the bond with the parent and the desire to internalize what the parent models and values. Of course, you have to have a reasonably functional parent with the right values for this to work.

So kids can stay out of trouble to avoid negative feelings, but also as a positive gesture rooted in relationships. Or something like that.

[Midlodemocrat]

78. Tell you what. Take a trip East and come visit our home.

Three incredibly responsible, kind, empathetic, kids. All good students, athletes, etc., but most importantly, responsible, self disciplined and nice to others.

Not one of them was ever hit. We disciplined by teaching.

[gollygee]

114. The fact that you lack imaginaton to come up with ideas that do work

doesn't make hitting a child OK.

Also, if hitting doesn't work, and your other option doesn't work either, why would you choose the option that doesn't work and is violent?

What works is empathy, being on the same team as your child, and working to fix the problem behind the behavior rather than simply punishing the behavior.

[Redstone]

49. We don't agree frequently, but we do right now. Excellent post. I don't understand

who people who understand that they'll get arrested for assault and battery if they hit another adult, seem to think it's OK to hit their kids, just because the kids are smaller than they are.

Hitting a child is disgusting. "Bullying" is the perfect word to use for it.

Redstone

[hfojvt]

55. if it is okay to get arrested and imprisoned for a minor offense

then how is hitting any worse? The state puts people in chains, in cages, and sometimes, to death. You'd get arrested if you tried that.

'Disgusting' seems like a violent and unnecessarily harsh word in this context. Hitting a child is not the end of the world. It wasn't when my parents did it and it wasn't when my teachers did it.

'Bullying' is not a good word in this context. If somebody steals my bike and I catch them doing it, I will deliver all the hurt to their world that I am capable of. Does that make me a bully? Gosh, I am trying to control them, and nobody should ever be able to control anybody else. That seems to be what UP is saying.

In my worldview a bully is NOT somebody who smacks another person for stealing lunch money. A bully is a guy who steals lunch money and hits or threatens people who try to stop him/her.

[Joe Fields]

58. What's "disgusting" is the intentionally obtuse point of view

that lumps all forms of corporal punishment into the physical abuse category. How fucking pious.

[seabeyond]

86. wasnt abusive in our house. intent wasnt abusive. wasnt done in an abusive manner

just wasnt abusive. not kinda, not a little... just wasnt

[wicket]

113. Thank-you

:hug:

[Danger Mouse]

26. Some of those are silly...

though I disagree with depriving a child of food.
I think discipline is something that has to be approached carefully.

[hedgehog]

29. I was going to say I have no advice for someone with a problem 16 year old,

but I do: have the child evaluated by a mental health professional. Sometimes depression manifests as a hostile, sulky attitude.


On the other hand, maybe the child is perfectly healthy. In that case, a mental health professional should be able to refer all involved to family counseling. If you have a 16 year old that must be controlled, disciplined or punished, there is a problem with both parents and child. We never had any rules as such because our kids knew what was expected of them and they knew they were loved and respected. Maybe we are the luckiest parents around, but maybe it's because we never viewed our kids as beings to be dominated.

[question everything]

33. And, if you merely threaten to discipline

your child, s/he knows the phone number of the dept. of children services and will threaten to call it and to "report" you.

[hedgehog]

35. If you're in a situation in which you are "threatening discipline"

and the child is "threatening to call children services", then get help. Whatever is going on is not going to be solved by continuing to fight with your child.

[JFN1]

155. Agreed.

So what is the answer, in the scenario you paint?

[nadine_mn]

36. oh man, I should not go there but here I am

I was physically, sexually and emotionally abused as a child.

I also received spankings from my granparents who took care of me, and was paddled in elementary school.
I grew up to be a victim advocate who works with abused kids, women and elders after completing law school and passing the bar.

I knew the difference then from the spankings from my grandparents, the physical abuse from my dad, the yelling from my mom, and the paddling from the teachers. Maybe I am just different, and I don't pretend to know everything. Hell yes, some teachers were way out of line and honestly I don't think teachers should ever be allowed to physically discipline kids.

There are also cultural issues when it comes to raising kids, some cultures are more hands on...that does not make them better or worse parents. I do think the pendulum has swung too far....we are so busy passing judgment on how others raise their kids, yet we aren't paying attention to how we care for our own.

I made the decision not to have kids, but I am damn awesome child advocate. Time-outs don't always work, physical punishment with abused kids is not the answer, removing privilges can work (but then with some families I have worked with...they have lost everything so what else do you take away). I never hit, spanked, swatted or whatever a child I worked with in shelters...but then after 8 hours I could go home to my childfree home. Raising children takes patience and support... and we as a society do not give parents the support or the tools to be better parents, however we are very often quick to point fingers and blame.

[hedgehog]

38. I hope that when I urged people to get counseling it is not blaming people.

I really think if the situation is bad, people need to get help before it gets worse.

I had one kid who got incredibly mouthy. Turned out, she was also getting suicidal. I'm glad I got help!

[nadine_mn]

51. nope..counseling is great

I don't think you were blaming.

I don't have kids, but let me use the best example I have:
I have 3 dogs, when my lab mix was a puppy I was determined to be the best dog parent ever!! I read all the books, bought all the best toys, food etc. But when he started ripping up the furniture and peeing all over the place, I was at my wits end. So I consulted the books.... some said be the pack leader by grapping the scruff of his neck and growling at him (that just made him pee more), other books said rub his nose in it, others said don't. I was going crazy, and then his separation anxiety made things worse.

I had no idea what the heck to do, I learned by trial and lots of errors. Anyone looking at me on anyday could accuse me of dog abuse (growling at my dog even though the Monks of New Skete recommend it), yelling at him, leaving him in his crate for time outs.

My poor lab grew up to be a neurotic bundle of nerves, I blame myself for not being consistent and trying too hard to raise him "right". So when it came to our youngest lab mix, I have learned so much and I am a much better dog parent to her...

What works for some experts or trainers does not work for everyone, and there are times when counseling is best for everyone.

Blaming comes when we forget that we all learn from our experiences and our experiences are all very different.

[JFN1]

47. I agree with what you said

But I don't believe the question I am raising is as much about methods of discipline, as it is, as you pointed out, a matter of giving parents the tools and support they need to be effective parents.

The tools to be a good parent, anymore are just not there. They have been stripped away by a number of things - economic pressures/realities, the reduction of the role of the extended family, over-protective/ineffective State laws/oversight/execution, under-funded schools, etc.

And without the tools to be good parents, what kind of future is really being created?

[Redstone]

52. And where the fuck are your credentials that allow you to pontificate about this?

You don't have any kids. Jesus, if I'd never owned a dog, I would not presume to lecture others on dog-training methods.

But maybe that's just me...maybe YOU feel qualified to lecture others on a subject about which you have NO experience. But I would not presume to do such.

Redstone

[JFN1]

57. You know, you are absolutely right

Since I don't have kids of my own, I have NO right to ANY opinion about kids, parenting, or the direction of our culture. These things are just not my business on any level, despite the fact that as a homeowner, I help to fund our schools. Be that as it may, though, I really crossed the line! I mean, even though I state right from the very beginning my lack of experiential qualifications, you are so righteous to point out how wrong, and, well, inhumanely terrible it is of me to publicly discuss this subject, especially since I am asking questions based both upon my experience, and lack of experience. And you are further correct in pointing out the horror of my posing questions, and learning via the Socratic method, as being the exact equivalent of giving all of you experienced parents out there, a lecture. Thank you for your courageous, non-bitter, reasonable, and level headed insight!

You call ME right-wing...I suppose because seeking knowledge and asking difficult questions based upon my own personal experience is so "right-wing;" so much more right-wing than your assertion that I have NO right to discuss this subject. I believe the right-wing punishment for such a "crime" is to damn me. So I'll go ahead and do it myself, since I MUST be the right-winger:

DAMN ME!!!!! DAAAAMMMNNNN MMMMEEEEEEEEE!!!! DAMN ME TO HELL!!!!

[ehrnst]

149. If a parent needs to hit - they've failed already as an authority figure.

We need to be a supportive culture.

Increasingly long workweeks, lack of leave for parents - such as that in other industrialized countries, lack of health care coverage for kids with geniune medical problems - NONE of that will be remedied by pulling out a paddle and getting "tough" with the kids at school.

I completely agree that schools feel that their hands are tied when they try to discipline kids who are breaking the rules. I've seen it - a parent chews out a teacher for giving detention to a kid when it keeps them from soccer practice. This is NOT however about molly coddling kids - it's about parents being caught up in the competitive thrust of society.

That's from the top down - and again - will not be solved simply by allowing more punishment masquerading as discipline.

I really do not see that parents who are concerned and behaving responsibly towards their children are somehow being penalized because of attempts to protect kids from physical and sexual abuse.

[annabanana]

83. A good and thoughtful post.

I slapped a couple of very young hands away from sockets. When those hands were a little older I explained why. Raising children is a long, hard job. We do the best we can with the understanding that we have. I think, on the whole, we are doing better.

[seabeyond]

89. thank you for sharing. many excellent points. i was spanked, even with belt

and i was NOT abuse. i have never been abused like you have in other areas, but i am sure i can feel the difference between a discipline not out of anger, out of love, a consistent love and a parent taking anger out on a child in an abusive manner. i have always stated that there is a difference.

i have two children and i dont use any type of corporal punishment either. it has never been necessary. i am ultimately fair adn just, i listen, i respect and we talk... a lot. it is hard work, it takes lots and lots of time and must have a strong connection with child that takes time and patience.

and thank you, for your job as advocate for children, there are a lot out there in need, and it is appreciated.

[defendandprotect]

39. Hitler was abused by his father --- and I have a feeling George W was abused ---

[nadine_mn]

42. oh no....I was abused too

damn it ...I haven't started any illegal wars, committed any acts of genocide

crap I am such a failure

[defendandprotect]

50. No . .. but he did . . .

[woo me with science]

43. I think you have to look at what is actually happening, though.

It's illegal to wear a sleeveless shirt in a public park in Maryland. That doesn't mean that the police are out there rounding up people in tank tops.

My experience with Child Protective Services in a couple of different states is that they are far too busy with undisputable cases of significant neglect and abuse to bother harassing parents about putting their children in time out, no matter what laws may or may not be on the books. I have made reports to Child Protection that were shelved even though the child had some marks on his body, because the evidence for abuse was simply too minor to place the child when other children in more severe circumstances were waiting for services.

I do think many parents do lack the time, the interest, or the backbone to discipline effectively. Besides the fact that parents are often working double shifts to keep food on the table and gas in the car, there are pervasive cultural messages that teach kids to be defiant, sarcastic, and inconsiderate. Turn on the TV shows aimed at 9 to 13-year-olds, and you will be fed a banquet of crude wise-cracking, sarcasm, put-downs, and just plain obnoxiousness. I also think that the 80's and 90's "therapizing" of popular culture created unfortunate cultural myths about how parents should not have any failings or cause their children any pain at all. Self-involved adults who "discovered" through the therapy culture that they had been irrevocably wounded as children by having imperfect parents naturally become shy about disciplining their own children.

I do think that teachers' hands are often tied when it comes to discipline, because schools fear lawsuits and because so many parents defend their darlings rather than supporting teachers.

I doubt, though, that over-extreme laws about child abuse or overzealous CPS workers are the culprit here.

[Redstone]

44. Oh, balls. When I was a kid, it was OK to for parents to beat the hell out of their kids.

We're talking 1950s here.

I remember asking my father this: "How come, if you hit another adult, you'd get arrested for assault and battery, but it's OK for you to hit me, just because I'm smaller than you are?"

I was eight years old. Guess what I got for asking that question. Bingo: I got hit again.

Your post sounds like one of those pathetic rightwing "forwarded emails."

And it's disgusting.

Redstone

[treestar]

130. I hate those emails

The ones that go on about how awful we had it, yet we turned out "OK."

Just how "OK" are we? And we in fact do apply the more modern standards in our own parenting.

I just heard a song on the radio (country) using that. Our parents smoked and drank and we turned out "OK." Well, some people didn't and that is why pregnant women generally no longer smoke or drink during pregnancy!

That meme is so idiotic.

[JFN1]

156. Why is seeking understanding"idiotic?"

Is this how we should treat our kids when they don't understand something? Call them "idiots?"

[Joe Fields]

170. No wonder you can't make a distinction. I thought as much.

Usually, from anecdotal evidence, it is from people who were beaten as children, such as yourself who cannot see a difference. If I had been beaten as a child, I probably would not be able to see a difference, either.

[Frances]

56. When I was young, my father sometimes swatted us kids with

the flyswatter, but he didn't use a belt the way so many of my friends' fathers did.

When my children were 5 or 6, I very rarely swatted them on the bottom with my hands. I thought that I was being very progressive.

I think I was progressive by the standards of how my friends were raised and by the standards of my community, but by the standards of the community where my children were raised, I was not behaving in the best way.

I asked my adult children what they thought and they said that I had only spanked them when I was frustrated with their behavior.

If I had it to do over again, I wouldn't spank at all. When I got frustrated, I would do what I did most of the time, which was to say that my patience was all used up and that I was going into my room by myself till I could get my patience back. When I did that, I could come out of the room and deal with the problem in a calm, objective way.

After all, sometimes I got frustrated at work. Getting physical at work wasn't permissible, so why should it have been permissible at home?

[TheMadMonk]

59. So do what I heard of one mother(?) do.

She called up CS, found out exactly what her obligations were. And adhered to them scrupulously.

Completely emptied kid's room, replaced bed with an iron framed cot, a rock hard mattress and an army blanket, no pillow. And lots of healthy nutritious food chosen from amongst the kid's least favorites.

Apparently worked a treat.

[Der Blaue Engel]

60. My father didn't think he was abusing me either

I was never beaten with a belt, just a paddle. He didn't leave bruises, he just had a policy of spanking until I cried, because God had "commanded" it. But the damage to my self esteem was immeasurable.

Each generation learns from the mistakes of the past, and hopefully, we evolve. While I don't necessarily think that someone who swats their kid once on the behind should be arrested, I do think they need counseling and training to understand why it is unhealthy and to give them better tools for effective parenting.

[slay]

61. Some of that IS indeed abuse in my opinion

Corporal punishment? Depriving a child of food? That's called ABUSE in my book. You might want to rethink your stance on some of these so called "punishments". I too have no children, but I do work for a group dealing with "at risk youth". Want to know what our punishment is? 5 minutes of timeout sitting quiet by themselves. Works almost every time. Also - almost all psychologists agree that spanking and paddling is INDEED abuse. VERY MUCH SO. :(

[cgrindley]

66. Sending a kid to bed without any dinner

child abuse? No. It. Isn't.

5 minutes of time out? Give me a break.

Matter of fact. You're grounded, Mister.

[slay]

161. Why don't YOU go to bed without dinner tonight

and see how you like it. You ever do that? I'm betting NO. I'd say more, but I think you know my feelings about your attitudes towards this topic by this point. Sigh. Whatever. :(

[cgrindley]

176. That's the whole point

if a child is sent to bed without dinner, the child is NOT supposed to like it.

Jesus.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

131. For starters, I don't think I ever sent my older kids to bed without dinner

However, if I would have once or twice in their lives, I don't think it would have been abuse. They were extremely well behaved kids, so the thought never even crossed my mind. They did, however get one or two swats on their rear up until around age three or four VERY RARELY - I certainly remember swatting one child when I turned around and found him trying to climb on top of the refrigerator! The kids don't even remember being swatted, and I'm quite sure they aren't repressed!

On the other hand, my younger kids were abused and neglected before we adopted them, so you can be darn sure that depriving them of dinner or swatting them would have been traumatizing to them. Besides, they were beyond the age of "swatting" when we adopted them.

Anyway, I know the difference between swatting a preschooler on the bottom once or twice when pulling him off the countertop with a firm admonition never to do that again, and being belted by a screaming out-of-control woman. That woman was my mother.

And to the original poster - I think few parents have never actually yelled at their kids, but I also think that yelling too much can break a child's spirit. I don't want to "break" my children; instead, I want to gently - but firmly - guide and mold them into well-adjusted young adults.

ETA - I have a grandchild around a year old, and her mother (my daughter) and I have been discussing discipline. She's reading books, and trying to decide how she and her husband will parent as my grandchild gets older. One thing she tells me again and again is that she realizes how wonderful her childhood was because she heard so little yelling and fighting. She talks to other young women about parenting, and realizes how insecure they were growing up, compared to her and her siblings. And I look back to my parents' fighting and screaming, and realize how traumatized I was by that. Actually, I've known that for decades. :( If you're in that kind of relationship, please get help or get out!

[JTFrog]

63. I still have a card in my wallet

from a police officer that offered to come and discipline my children for me if necessary. I have three teenage boys. All of them bigger than me. When one of them was caught stealing a candy bar from the corner store, the officer suggested that I take my son home and apply some warmth to his backside. This was after his first suggestion that he take him to juvy because he was being incredibly rude to the officer. When my son kind of laughed at the idea of me trying to physically discipline him, the officer pulled out a card and handed it to me and said if I had any trouble to call him and that he would come and administer the discipline for me to any of my boys at any time. To this day all I have to do is suggest getting my wallet to one of them and they straighten right up.

[Midlodemocrat]

80. That's ridiculous.

You can't wait until they are 'bigger' than you to instill respect. My son is 'bigger' than both of us, but he does what he is told to do or asked to do without question.

My parents have three sons. All WAY bigger than my dad. Not one of them would have ever dreamed of being disrespectful in the manner you describe.

[JTFrog]

81. My children do what they

are told when told as well. They are usually very respectful children. I didn't hit any of my kids when they were growing up. My youngest went through a phase for about three months where he was disrespectful to anyone in authority. Especially at school. It was also the only time any of them ever acted out and did something as foolish as steal a freaking candy bar on a dare.

My point was merely that it isn't always considered a crime by the authorities to punish your child by smacking their rear ends. And this officer knew I had never raised a hand to them and that I never would. Hence his offer. He knew what my son was thinking at that moment.

Yeah, I've used the wallet line about a dozen times since that episode three years ago. We usually laugh about it, but it makes them stop and think about what they are doing.

[ConsAreLiars]

64. So, as a victim of abuse you now regard it as "a good thing."

Some pathology there, sorry to say. Most authoritarians, those who advocate for torture etcetera, like Chimpy, were also victims of abuse. Get some help. Denial is not healing.

(edit to rephrase)

[Raejeanowl]

65. How Many Columbine-Type and Lesser School Violence/Weapons Incidents Did We Have In The 50s-60s?

How many bullies? The enlightened ones are killing the children with false "kindness."

[Hippo_Tron]

168. Post hoc fallacy

Your argument is pointless unless you can prove that disciplining children and columbine-type incidents have some kind of connection.

The religious wrong does the same thing when they say that the reason we have these incidents is because we got rid of prayer in schools.

[Raejeanowl]

172. Thanks

That may well be true. You'd be right to point out that it's only one of several sea changes in how children are raised in the last half-century. But I'll put my money on 24/7 parental discipline-or the lack thereof-as having a far more viable and trusted (albeit "unproven" to your satisfaction) connection to children's behavior and mental health any day over reciting a prayer five mornings a week in school. Any more than giving lip service to the Pledge makes you a good citizen.

If such a nexus weren't commonly acknowledged, why would we then have the development of this contemporary cult eschewing any form of punishment, or exposure to failure and competition, or frustration of any personal desire, as psychologically harmful? I'm not sure we can have it both ways, so perhaps someone else can more easily "prove" there is no connection between structure, hardship, struggle and personal growth?

(On another perhaps not unrelated societal stage, we also have a penal system that is failing, wallowing in recidivism, lacking any authority as deterrent, arguably due to the adoption of rehabilitation as a new credo overriding the original intents of punishment and public safety.)

I'll soft-pedal it backward if necessary. My opinion is...anecdotal evidence of successful parenting to the contrary...that kid-glove (no twisted pun intended) permissiveness apparently hasn't contributed much to an overall improvement in the mental health or emotional security of our children.

So I'll submit that we are still doing something very wrong.

[Control-Z]

67. I really have to chime in

on this discussion.

I got the belt when I was very young, possibly while still in diapers (I have blocked out any specifics before the age of three) and as a young girl, in the shower, wherever the belt happened to make contact with my naked, wet, delicate, child skin - and that was mild in comparison to the escalation in physical abuse that evolved over time. I especially abhor physical punishment because of it.

But I have swatted my three children, on their bottoms, once each, at the toddler age, when they put their lives in danger. Partly it was a knee jerk reaction to my fear for their lives. Partly it was because they were just too young to to understand reason. When a toddler runs in front of a car, or something equally dangerous, after being watched over and told again and again why not to, or just "not to" or "no no" or "time out" there comes a moment when the shock of a swat is necessary to make a real and important impression. Believe me, none of my children ever repeated those dangerous behaviors. And trust me when I say that each incident was a life threatening one.

That said, I do not believe in physical punishment beyond emergency intervention and my children grew up knowing I would never hit them. But they started teasing me about it when they became cognizant of the implications. "A mom who will never hit." Later they used it against me, when they became teens. Both of my girls have hit me, confident I would never hit back. My 6'2" son has never really hit me but has postured and has held me against the wall.

You have to wonder where they learned to manipulate my beliefs. They learned they could get away with just about anything if push cam to shove. They have threatened to call the police and report abuse over a simple "no", or cutting off the internet, or taking away their cell phones (with good reason such as failing grades, or staying out overnight without permission, etc). I'm not exaggerating.

TV was their first exposure to snotty, out of control children. They also have a horrible father who backs their every word (even though he doesn't live with us and has no clue about what goes on). And it really scared me in the beginning. With the rules that are in play today I thought possibly they could get me into trouble they would regret. And it's been really hard standing up to them and their father (who has even called social services on me several times).

But you know what? No one has ever disagreed with my position (other than their father). When the police dragged my (13 yo) daughter home at 3 in the morning after being gone for several days he made it clear to her, in no uncertain terms, that I had every right to ground her, punish her and even hit her if necessary to control her. Not that I would hit her but she was shocked by the information, nevertheless.

This is a generation of spoiled, greedy children. It's a giant and usually lonely job, raising kids to be respectful, responsible and caring. Cute, out of control children on TV do not help. Partners who sabotage don't help. The Paris Hiltons and Lindsay Lohans of the world are a nightmare. Children see what others get away with and think they can do the same if they just dig in their heels and make threats.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is yes, the OP has a point. I would never deny my children food or hit them but this generation of children think they are in control and yes, something needs to change. Somewhere along the line they have gotten the idea that they are in charge. And this is not exclusive to my home even though I'm one of the few parents who admits to it and who tries to keep a handle on the situation. Most of them turn their heads and pretend it's just not happening or that their child is "special".

I don't have the answer but I know there are just too many variables to make judgment on anyone who is trying to do the right thing for their children. I know that physical punishment is not the answer. Denying food is not the answer. But not having the answer doesn't mean there is no problem. There is. And unless you have children, have been through 18 years with them in this current climate, and have done so under undesirable conditions, you can't possibly understand. Times have changed.

[cali]

69. I'm sorry

it sounds like you had it rought as a kid. But I really don't like your generalizations about kids. I'll tell you one thing I did as a parent: NO TV. Do I think it made a difference? You bet. And consistent discipline, not capricious discipline. I don't have the dim view of kids so many here have: I know too many wonderful ones who have never been in trouble at school or with the police, or threatened or hit their parents. Maybe it's growing up in a small rural, yet oddly sophisticated environment that's helped me parent.

[H2O Man]

71. The only legitimate goal

for discipline is to instill self-discipine. Violence, hatred, rage and fear tend to be stumbling blocks to that.

[cali]

73. On this, we agree completely. n/t

[Control-Z]

72. When your're doing it right but

your partner and others around are doing it wrong it is a difficult situation.

'And unless you have children, have been through 18 years with them in this current climate, and have done so under undesirable conditions, you can't possibly understand.'

Sticking it out, waking up every morning to search for answers to benefit the only people that matter in life, like every other aspect of life, is a unique journey for everyone of us. I've done my best and will continue to.

Living in an affluent area of Orange County doesn't help. Unfortunately, this is the only home I know.

edit to say: I'm sincerely happy for the success you've had. Maybe in another life my efforts would have been better received.

[kdmorris]

91. I know some great kids, too

My youngest daughter is one of them. She's smart and funny and wants to be a surgeon. She makes straight A's in school.

But, you are responding to a woman who just poured her heart out and you respond as if it's all her fault. I've been where she is.. I have two older daughters. It's great that YOU are such a wonderful parent and YOUR son turned out great. And THAT is the only truth, hmmm? The rest of us.. who have had our worst nightmares come true, who have fought for the lives of our children and lost, we just suck at being parents, I guess. If only *I* had thought to not allow them to watch TV (we did think of that. They didn't listen). If only *I* had been as good a parent as you, my older two daughters wouldn't have run off.

I'm sure it wasn't genetic, mental illness inherited from my ex-husband. I'm also sure that it wasn't their early years, living with my ex-husband, who was abusive. I'm sure it was because I didn't use consistent discipline. My husband and I were probably just really bad parents and I'm really glad that you've pointed it out.

I would not wish the pain of watching your child self-destruct on even my worst enemy. And the "support" you get from the state is worthless, even demeaning. When my oldest daughter was 17, she pulled a knife on my husband. He subdued her, got the knife away from her and suffered through the abuse of her beating on him while I called the police. They arrived and she had already gone back to her bedroom. Police talked to us, talked to her, but refused to have her committed because "she seemed sane enough at that point" and "it was just teenage mood swings". Warned her that if she did it again, they would take her in. Two days later, she ran away. File a police report and got "Well, she's 17. We aren't going to go looking for her, but if we come across her, we will pick her up".

I didn't see my daughter for 6 months, when she finally got arrested for shoplifting. And, her punishment for that was nothing. I asked them to force her to seek medical help, to request that she see a mental health worker, but... "her crime was just shoplifting". So, nothing happened to her. We tried, but she made our life hell and that of our two younger daughters hell for the next 6 weeks. A month before her 18th birthday, I gave up and told her she was free. I couldn't take it anymore and the state refused to help me (she was still on probation at that point, but her caseworker wouldn't help us. I turned her in for violating her probation and nothing ever came of it)

While dealing with the older one, our then 15 year old daughter had started seeing a 24 year old man. It's still illegal in the state of Florida for him to have sex with her (until she's 16), but the police said they couldn't do anything about it unless she admitted to sleeping with him. She ran away, we had them pick her up. She ran away again, we had them pick her up again. She turned 16 and left, with the help of my older daughter, who was then 18. We had screwed her window shut, we had taken turns staying up to catch her, we tried to get the police to arrest the man, his parents, we TRIED.

It didn't work, and we were still devastated and depressed about the older daughter. She dropped out of school at 16 and kept running away. I asked if it was legal to lock her in her room and the answer was no. I asked if it was legal to lock her in the house and the answer was no. I asked them what the hell my options were. They said she could be sent to boot camp if she "broke the law". But they never arrested her for breaking the law (running away, drinking underage, etc)In the end, to save our youngest child two more years of the hell we had been through with our oldest daughter, we gave our then 16 year old daughter an ultimatum. Follow the rules or leave. She left.

The odd thing is... our middle daughter kind of gets it now. She's doing OK, still with that same guy, who is now 26 and she's almost 18. She got a job, pays her taxes, pays her bills, etc. But our oldest one will very likely be dead by the time she is 30. I've accepted that, even though it makes me cry myself to sleep and wake up shaking and sweating from the awful nightmares I have. She's 20 now. And I have absolutely no recourse as long as she doesn't try to kill herself or someone else. And then, all I'll really get is the chance to speak at her sentencing to ask that they be lenient on her, after wishing they had been harder on her 3 years ago.

Your response does little except make people who have been through this hell feel even worse than they already do. Do you not think that I spend EVERY DAY wondering what I could have done better? Do you not think that my every waking hour is spent wondering if I did the right thing? Do you REALLY think that this was all because they were allowed to watch TV (which they weren't. We didn't even have a TV for several years. Too poor to afford one). How about some sensitivity? Just because it worked for you, doesn't mean that everyone it didn't work for is a bad parent.

[seabeyond]

100. but the thing

you can see reason for the situation you lived with your children. like the abusive x. like tell them not to watch and they didnt listen. i couldnt imagine my kids NOT listening to me. truly that tv would be thrown out the door, i dont need it that bad. but you see a difference in the atmosphere of the older children to the younger.

also i would like to say, ... regardless of what a person is given in life to experience, endure, or live i believe ultimately it is the persons choices that create their lives. not much into victimization. if as teenager you have no control over the child, then i do put the repercussion on the teenager. they create, they live, we cannot control another. they will make their choices in life and live that life

i have a youngest that hates control and rule. i have worked flexibly in finding ways to convince child that it behooves him to get along. i KNOW as he grows older, he is going to make his individual decisions, and i am not going to feel a responsibility if he CHOSES to fuck up in life. it is his to do.

so much in your post

we do the best we can, with what we have. i am not a big one in looking at the past and wishing, or the future and hoping, more ito the now

[kdmorris]

104. Yes, most people tell me that

That's it's their choice and that it's not my fault. I've gotten to the point where I half believe it. That's a reason that I objected to cali's terms. It was almost like saying "Sorry about your childhood, but, if you had been a good parent, like me, your kids would have been great, like mine".

I don't feel responsibility as much as I feel like they could have done so much better. And they way that they both treated us was wrong and abusive. We didn't spank them and it was kind of a shock to have them turn around and act like my ex-husband (more my oldest daughter than my middle daughter) They are both smart and could have done so much with their lives.

I think my middle daughter will turn out OK. She already regrets dropping out of school and that's a good sign. But my oldest... she breaks my heart. I don't feel like I made her turn out like that. But I love her so much and it hurts to see her destroying her life.

[seabeyond]

116. a lot of it does have to do with the parenting. i hold by that

still... even with that, we wont find perfection. my parents were damn good, love them dearly and they werent perfect. my middle brother was the one that came into problems. still does into his forties. where as my other brother and i are fine. my middle brother blames woes on parents in every way. everything is there fault. about the only thing i saw different in the parenting then, adn today, is they enabled him. well, that is who my parents are and with middle brother he took full advantage of it. surely at some point he gets to own it

i was old when i married and had kids. all the differents in the world in parenting. we were financially stable, without a stress in that area. creates a totally different environment and atmosphere. my kids are only 12 and 10 and already i see things i do could cause them issues later in life. we talk about those things. i tell them i am not perfect, not going to happen and because i am who i am, this might be created for them. be aware and deal with it. cause at that point it is theirs to do

we all have our crosses.

i know a lot of things i do parenting has allowed my children to be where they are today

i know a lot has to do with their individual personalities.

it is not a black and white issue. i didnt spank ergo kids should be fine. it is life, in all its messy.

the poster blamed/blames a lot of people even to the point of a generation of spoiled and greedy kids. i am totally opposed to that opinion and shrugging off personal responsibility. i know kids are no more out of control or greedy or spoiled than what a parent allows. i wont abide dismissing responsiblity to lay all blame on the children. i am a firm believer that the parent is the one responsible and i never shrug off my responsibility to the schools, police, govt, or children themselves.

[kdmorris]

120. Sorry, I misunderstood then

I didn't say that I agreed with everything she said, but I can understand where it comes from.

I don't spank my children either. And I don't believe that all children are spoiled and greedy. But I can identify with her pain. It hurts. I hope you never, ever find out how much it hurts.

Glad it's working for you. Guess I was just a shitty mother. Sorry, I thought you had meant to say that my daughters made their choices and it was for them to make those choices, not me. Guess what you meant to say was that I enabled them and that it IS actually all our fault.

Thanks for the response. I'm too emotional to continue this discussion. Carry on, as you were.

Edited to add: I don't agree with the OP either. I was just drawn by the pain in her post. We were TOLD we could beat them with an open hand in Florida, but decided that it would be less than useful to pursue that path.

[seabeyond]

124. i can ALWAYS understand where a person is coming from

i can always feel an empathy. i can always have a compassion. i can always see how a person does the best they can, with what they have, even if it may not be the best answer or the correct answer. but even with all that, i may not agree with them in all things.

i am sorry you feel pain with my post

i do see your daughters as making their choices.

i do see the parent as being non perfect, a reality for us all, as our children are not perfect either

it isnt an all or nothing. because i do believe a parent is responsible for child, and influence child, it does NOT conclude you are a shitty parent.

each person, each child are individual. we cannot be all things for all people.

[kdmorris]

129. Thanks for the clarification

I think I understand.

[seabeyond]

135. it is a tough one

never hold yourself to other people, and DON'T let others hurt you. one of the greatest blessings i had starting out as a mother was oldest at 4 months. i went into doctor and said, people say..... she told me, listen to self, you know the best for your child. that was nearly 13 yrs ago and so true.

i was the youngest of three. we were all close in age. oldest cause problems cause he was oldest.... and as parents say, probably hardest on him. middle wanted attention regardless of good or bad. and me..... i watched them and made sure i didnt do what they did. i was so much easier for them. when mom yelled, they blamed her, i said, wait..... you guys caused.

enjoy the good. i liked your post with your youngest, wanted to send an email..... but can respond here.

[seabeyond]

128. i learned a long time ago

NOT to judge another parent their parenting. each is unique and will give the child something different. unless it is out and out abuse of some sort, including neglect.

my issue i live regularly here is so many parents busy in life, trying to survive, or not being a part of their childs life for selfish reasons, blaming our generation of children. and that one, i cannot allow.

also it seems like so many parents are handing over their responsiblity to everyone but themselves. so i fight that regularly in our schools and elsewhere.

if you raised your children from your heart, ..... with good intent, i believe you did right. it is your childs to see that

that is why i say, even though my parents used the belt, i knew/know there love for me and was not to hurt me, but to teach me. there is not pain there. whereas my brother interprets it as to hurt him. that is where the responsibility lies with the child, i feel.

but then, seeing how i see so many sides, a childs individuality will determine how they interpret that. it was just easy for me to see the love, wasnt so easy for my brother because of who he was.

[Midlodemocrat]

123. You, my friend, are a far cry from a bad parent.

Light years even.

I have been extremely lucky with my children, but I also know enough to realize that genetics plays an enormous role in who they are. If I had a child who had inherited my husband's sister's mental illness, all the psychology classes in the world couldn't have helped me.

I'm sorry for what you are going through and have gone through. And, maybe, just maybe, your eldest daughter will see the errors of her ways and return to the fold. It DOES happen.

Best to you. :hug:

[kdmorris]

126. Thanks, Midlo

Except for the constant worry about the oldest, our lives are pretty peaceful now. We are even re-establishing contact with our 17 year old, which, in my despair a year ago, I thought would never happen. I try to keep in touch with the 20 year old, make sure she knows that she has people who love her, a place to come to if she ever decides to get out of her situation. She never calls me, will only give me her cell phone number and doesn't want to tell me where she lives (she's got paranoid tendencies. She thinks we will kidnap her), but I maintain hope that, one day... she will wake up.

The one bright side (and I do mean one) of this hell we went through with the older two was, after they moved out, I got a chance to really get to know my youngest (it's harder when she's the youngest of a group). She's 15 (will be 16 in December) and I'm just amazed that I get this chance to have her these last couple of years. She's not perfect. We have our issues, but we can work them out with her.

Thanks for the hug!

[seabeyond]

141. i agree with your post, but then i am not in small rural either

and still i see a lot of well mannered, respectful, well behaved kids. i don't have nearly the dim view of this generation either.

[hedgehog]

146. Now you have me wondering if that's what we did right. When the older kids were little,

all we had was a small B&W. Later the only TV we watched was either Mr. Rogers, Sesame Street or Star Trek. I remember a Science Fiction series about war and prejudice, Space Above and Beyond. Oh, and Dr. Who. Eventually we branched out into Buffy and Angel. We watched a lot of movies and talked about what we watched.

Don't laugh - the Star Trek series (Especially Deep Space Nine), Buffy and Angel all had considerations of morality at the core of their stories.

[kdmorris]

92. I feel your pain

And I'm sorry for all that you are going through and have gone through. I've been there and it's the most lonely, awful feeling in the world, even though I had the support and love of my husband and, therefore, had someone to share my burden with.

:hug:

[seabeyond]

95. and i dont believe in the swat for danger, like so many opposed

to spanking will state except danger when little and unable to reason, that is the one time i call bullshit. as a parent i see that when in yard or around street, it means i am never out of reach of child, period. and it is MY job to keep safe, not teach toddler to keep self safe. and redirect in another direction, i dont even mention street dangerous cause for many little ones, that means the game has begun. same with like sockets ect.... i was simply ALWAYS, ALWAYS on hand to keep toddler safe.

[seabeyond]

98. generation of spoiled, greedy children........... gosh i have to post further

i now have read all the way thru your post. i gotta say, i hear the out of control kid, the spoiled greedy kid way too much.

only if the parent allows it to be so

my kids have access to all things and such a comfortable life, yet regularly they do without, without much that most all kids have because we have consistent conversation on people wanting too many things today. father and i are good examples of providing, saving and not having wants and desires, ergo able to take care of needs. my kids are not out of control, though they have had a LOT of examples of adults that are, as those adults point the finger at them and their generation.

it is what we create. granted, we do with what we have, .... but to label kids in this manner is sad

from the youngest of age with my children, that tv that showed the spoiled out of control kid was NOT watched by my children and often talked why they were not watching these programs. it was used as a lesson and example to my teaching

[Midlodemocrat]

99. I have three children and never needed to 'swat' them

because their lives were in danger. Instead, I supervised them and engaged them. I had locks on the doors, a fenced yard and my house was totally child proofed.

Never needed to hit them to protect them.

I also don't really agree that times have changed. Every generation says that about the subsequent one. I find that my kids and their friends are awesome people growing into awesome, caring adults.

I suspect my parents felt the same way.

[gollygee]

109. OK so if your toddler runs out into traffic and you hit him

you are then comfortable leaving them by the road without you because you know they won't do it again? I don't think so. No kind of discipline works after being done once, including non-punitive forms of discipline.

When my daughter ran out into the road as a toddler, I was truly scared and she sensed that, and cried because she became afraid too. I never punished her, and she never ran out into the road again, but I certainly stayed right next to her if we were near a road until she was old enough that I could trust her, and I bet you stayed right next to yours too.

You don't need to swat your child for running out into the street, and I'm opposed to punishment for simply being a toddler anyway, which is what it would be in this case. Toddlers run out into streets. That isn't a behavior problem, it's a supervision problem. Maybe you should have been swatted for not supervising well enough.

[Midlodemocrat]

115. My biggest argument against spanking for infractions like that

is that if spanking actually worked, you would only have to do it once. How many two year olds get the message that running into the street warrants a swat? I'll tell you how many...none.

[ehrnst]

151. "This is a generation of spoiled, greedy children."

And every generation has likely said that about every generation that has come after them.

There are children that grow up wealthy and are not greedy - and children that grow up poor that are.

What I've noticed about every kid that I grew up with that was materialistic was that gifts were the most apparent expression of their parents love - instead of attention, they got gifts.

What I noticed about most "brats" that I grew up with was that being a "brat" was the best way to get a parent to give them attention - which may have been the closest thing to love that they experienced from them.

It's not "too much" love and attention, or even gifts that make a child (let alone a "generation") behave in a greedy, tempramental way - it's the lack of love and attention that got substituted with material goods.


Just my observations.

[seabeyond]

152. you are so right on

i have always said, cant spoil in love.

i think on the mode of your expression, another point. the mere attitude of kids are greedy and spoiled. to even have this mentality of children in and of itself describes a parenting going on. to be honest.

i dont in anyway see my children, and many other children in this manner and they seem to meet that expectation.

[ehrnst]

159. I have a four year old, and I'm not seeing it in him.

And I'm doing more than keeping my fingers crossed that I won't see it in the future. I am present for my son. I don't resent the life changes that came with motherhood, so I enjoy my time with him. I don't spend time at the golf course or the gym on weekends, and buy him expensive toys to make up for it.

[seabeyond]

166. and i am at 9 and 12

and STILL enjoying the hell out of them. my niece just had a baby and i was saying ah, when she is about 3 months.... (and i was going to say you are going ot have so much fun and each of the ages where poppin up in my mind and how uniquely each stage was in fun) i told her, never mind, it is all fun, still having fun with my

i am having a blast watching my son walk into the teenage years. he will be 13 soon, and i am just not afraid.

but you are right. i was old when i married. i got all my playing done. being with my family was/is all i need want and desire.

[Midlodemocrat]

74. This is horseshit.

As a professional who has had the unfortunate task of recommending that a child or children be removed from their homes, this is absolute crap. Total crap. Not ONE of the things listed in your OP is grounds for removal in any of the fifty states. You don't have a clue what you are talking about in this instance.

Been there. Done that. Got the tee shirt.

[Prophet 451]

88. Fuck this shit

You give this list of kids who were abused and made it to great things. Good for them. How many abused kids DIDN'T make it? Should we treat them as natural wastage? It takes a thousand abused kids to turn out a genius? Hey, we could start factory farming them! Pay Blackwater a shitload of money and they'll happily beat the crap out of some poor bastard, yell at, demoralise and traumatise them until they kill themselves or each other.

I'm sorry, I can't keep a nice intellectual distance on this one. I was bullied at school and bullied at home and every fucking time this bullshit comes up, we get the same crap forcefed to us: It's how things are, it'll make you a better person. A while back, we had two photogenic bullying deaths here and the tabloids got up in arms about bullying. Annoyed? No, I was outraged. Not about the two girls. I'm sorry for them but really, they're just two more victims and after a while, you lose the ability to care about them individually. No, I was pissed because we've had an epidemic of bullying for over twenty years but because the victims weren't photogenic, because there wasn't blood on the classroom floor, no-one gave a shit. No, no blood. Just deeply dysfunctional, fucked-up adults walking the streets.

Yeah, I was talking about bullying because it's the same thing. The kids that bullied me grew up having the shit kicked out of them by their parents. Oh, I'm sure everyone mouths phrases like "discipline" and "building character" and maybe if you beat the crap out of an adult, he would learn that but kids don't think that way. The only thing they ever learned from "parental discipline" was that might makes right and if you love your family, you treat them like crap. Oh, I know, "discipline" can be verbal too. Yeah, I'm sure that leaves less marks but you want a stat? Around a quarter of the country will suffer fr0om depression at some point in their lives. For some (including myself), it'll be life-long.

Abused kids tend to go in self-destructive directions. Personally, I was already timid so I got violent. Led me into combat sports (amateur boxing, amateur and semi-pro wrestling, a smattering of various martial arts), caused me some trouble which I'm not too proud of. The training from combat sports led to me teaching self-defence to college girls (and that I am proud of). I got through it. Eventually, after a shitload of therapy and some close brushes with the law. I threatened to push my other half down the stairs once. I was lucky enough that she didn't leave me, although she had every right too. Does that seem unconnected? Bullshit. The lesson learned by an abused kid is that it's ok to hit your loved ones if you feel like it. I'd like to say I'm a better man these days but that would be a lie, I'm a work in progress. Still got that temper but I'm better at controlling it these days.

Too personal for you? OK, try Columbine. Columbine happened because two bullied kids took their revenge. Oh, I can deplore the way they did it. No question, they went too far but I tell you, no, I guarantee you that somewhere out there, there is some bullied/abused kid looking at those two fuckwits like they're gods. Whole country was so fucking shocked by Columbine. The real fucking shock is why you don't get one of those every day. We treat our kids like shit. We beat them, lock them up in schools that are halfway to concentration camps, pump them full of drugs, scream at them until they're sanity hangs on by a thread and then we're fucking surprised that they turn out to be violent space cadets. You might be able to differentiate between hitting your kid and hitting another adult but here's a fucking newsflash: Your kid doesn't. Parent threatens to hit their kid, no-one cares; kid threatens to hit their parent, suddenly everyone's all fucking ears.

You got through it ok. Good for you. I didn't, a lot of people didn't and we get mightily pissed off when people spout bullshit like this (which is really just another way of telling us that we're weak for not putting on a happy face). You hit your kid, mentally abuse them, scream and shout at them, you deserve them doing it to you. Fuck you and the paddle you rode in on.

[Midlodemocrat]

96. Awesome post.

:thumbsup:

And, I'm sorry for what you went through. I truly am. :hug:

[Prophet 451]

107. I wouldn't say I've put it behind me

'cos in the end, you never can. Crap like that sticks with you your whole life but, through therapy, patience and some drugs (better living through chemistry!), I have learned to live with it.

Weird thing is, looking back on it now, I can forgive my family. Now, at twenty-plus years on, I can see how fucked up they were as well. True story: First time my mum met my father's parents, they tried to buy her off. Shit we do to each other, huh?

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Midlodemocrat]

119. Actually, you are dead wrong about Clinical Depression

Many times situational depression becomes clinical depression. Situational depression is usually not life long, and sometimes neither is clinical depression. In some cases, clinical depression IS lifelong and needs medical intervention to combat it.

And, your comments to that poster are really, really off base and beyond rude.

[NashVegas]

136. self-deleted

no context

[redqueen]

144. Thank you!

This "Well I had x done to me and I'm okay, so naturally everyone else should be, too!" BS is pure fuckin idiocy.

[Joanne98]

101. I lived in Japan when I was growing up... Japanese do not spank until 7 years old!

They have some of the best behavied children in the world. This is typical American thinking. I blame the Christians for this. "Spare the rod, spoil the child". America is one of the most violent countries on Earth. Abusing the children will only make that worse. But that's the whole point. If children are out of control, it's the corporations fault. Advertising, products aimed at them, destroy...

[redqueen]

145. That's weird cause most corporal punishment advocates insist that toddlers

are the one who need the "swats" the most.

Don't you just love that euphemism? :eyes:

[gollygee]

105. Let's look at your list

- Sitting a child in the corner

I've heard of people who force their kids to stand or sit in a corner with their nose touching the corner for an hour at a time. Is sitting in the corner for a few minutes abuse? No. Can sitting a child in the corner become abusive. Yes.

- All forms of corporal punishment

I agree with this 100%. There is no excuse for an adult to hit a child in any circumstance.

- Sending a child to bed without supper

Children are growing and not allowing children to eat shouldn't be allowed. Also, what was a relatively mild punishment to you (one meal) can become very abusive too. I've also read about people who only fed their kids bread and water for some period of time, or who restricted their food in other excessive ways. This certainly can be abusive.

- "Yelling" at a child

Not all yelling is abusive but this is probably talking about emotional abuse, which is terribly abusive. Talk to someone whose parents screamed at him all the time and then reconsider whether yelling can be abusive.

- Restricting a child to their room for "extended" periods

I used to get locked in my room every afternoon from the time I got out of morning kindergarten until my parents got home in the evening. That was abusive. And I've heard of much worse.

So I think that list isn't about what *is* abusive so much as ways adults can be abusive.

[seabeyond]

122. wow to the being locked in your room. i used locking in room

for the oldest because when he lost control it was more an overwhelmed by energies and needed the quiet to pull himself together. we didnt even consider it punishment, more an healing time for him.

the locked door for both kids was so they knew not to even battle and accept so we didnt have a whole other issue to deal with.

putting my youngest in a room by himself was more to take away from people (because he needs to be with people) to learn the privilige of being with people. but then he stayed in a very short time, and i would be in with him and talk it out, until he was ready to walk out

but you are right

i dont think any of the punishments are abusive unless that is the intent. there is a line all parents, and i believe people know when they go over. and the child feels it

i had the belt, i did not feel it was abusive, and today i do not see it as abusive, and once i was punishmented the issue was over. start again. my parents didnt do it in anger. they didnt do it to hurt me. it was clearly my lesson.

whereas it is so easy to see it as an abuse

but anything can be abusive.... if that is wha tthe intent is.

[CT_Progressive]

121. So, we can send adults to prison, and that's considered ok, but not sending kids to their room?

What a load of crap.

Ive done all of the following to my 9 yr old as punishment for bad behavior:
- Sitting a child in the corner
- "Yelling" at a child
- Restricting a child to their room for "extended" periods

Any government agency that came to tell me that those things are abuse and tried to either arrest me or take her away would very quickly cease to continue to draw breath.

Nuff said.

[seabeyond]

132. i didnt know i yelled UNTIL i had kids. i swear i never ever yelled

then wham.... i am a yeller. none of us like it. when i start in the mode, i will say ok..... no more yelling for me. the oldest, who is a real ass kisser and i love him anyway, tells me... mom that means WE have to work on being better, cause you are yelling cause of my behavior.

ya. yelling is bad. but then who says we are perfect

after saying 6 times brush your teeth, the yell comes.

[ecstatic]

167. EXACTLY! Folks want to throw kids (and sometimes their parents) in prison

Which believe me is worse than any standard punishment a normal parent can inflict... Better to receive sensible punishment at home, then to end up out of control and doing time in jail (if not dead).

[NashVegas]

137. I Wouldn't Compare a 7-Year Old's Rape to Being Sat in a Corner

And am shocked that anyone would.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

148. Yeah, I call bullshit.

If you really did call CPS to ask them, they may have told you those things could be abuse in certain context, but I don't think you really did anymore than you got 700 swats from your science teacher.

http://www.oregon.gov/DHS/children/abuse/abuse_neglect.shtml

[JFN1]

158. Did you read my post, or just skim out the parts you wanted?

I never received 700 swats. By the end of class, that's how many swats Mr. Sparks had on his list for me (one kid in the class kept the 'swats sheet' for him. I received only 5 swats from Mr. Sparks that day, and I have no doubt he had no intention of delivering 700 swats to me.

It reached 700, because I kept telling him to 'add some more' on it, trying to demonstrate what a big, tough 7th grader I was.

So call me a liar all you want (very nice, BTW) - it won't change the facts of my life...

And this was in Colorado, where I grew up, not Oregon, where I live now.