On this generational conflict that is being manufactured to order

[nadinbrzezinski]

Here is the problem... many of us don't see the young protesting... perhaps they believe they have a new way
and would love for the old foggies to go away. And for anybody conscious of the history of this country this generational
conflict is very familiar

Back in '68 the adage was... don't trust anybody over thirty.

It is back.

But in the midst of ipods and computers and all this new technology the youth is missing certain constants of US History and I must say... we failed you... since nobody teaches history any more.

The politics of direct action that was part of the sixties (and the draft was a big component of it) was not exclusive to the sixties.

Direct action, petitioning the government and marching is as old as the country. It didn't start in 1968 or with the Boomers.

The Suffragists did it as well. Heck it took over two generations for women who believed in the Seneca declaration to get the vote. The Suffragists didn't give up though, and they marched until they got it.

Labor organizers risked prison and death in the 1920s, either by being shot during the demonstrations, or faced jail time for organizing... the forty hour week was bought with the blood and tears of the labor movement who again didn't stay home, but got in the faces of those who didn't want them to organize. And when I hear, but you don't get it... I work... these workers pulled 12 and 14 hour shifts... of the most grueling type of work... so you will have to forgive me if I understand, but think this partly an excuse for a country... not only you, that has grown fast and lazy and apathetic.

The civil rights movement also saw direct action... and massive civil strife... as well as hoses, billy clubs and dogs and people were killed.


There are those, including a presidential candidate, that are telling us... we need to abandon the sixties... what they are telling you is that you need to abandon the politics of direct action and taking to the streets that brought the labor movement, womens vote, civil rights and other social events thoughout our collective history.

That is what they are telling you...

And yes... don't trust anybody over thirty... historically we've heard it before and not just in 1968. This talk has been present in one form or another almost from the begining.

Don't put down your I-POD, but buy Howard ZInn's A People's History of the American People in audio book form, and listen to it. Don't be afraid of learning how the history of this country refutes the let's stay home attitude... and perhaps we will need to take to the streets once again and march against billy clubs and machine guns. I sure hope we can sing through the whole bloody mess once again (My apologies Mr Guthrie)

[Ytzak]

1. direct consumerism trumps generational conflict

The draft in the 1960's brought home to the youth that they were affected by that war. Without the draft, most of today's youth simply don't feel it.

However, today's youth are still the group that is suffering the most. A glance at the list of the dead in Iraq shows the Demographic breakdown to be on the short side of 30. But, if that youth is not a military or related to military, they don't feel it. In my Communications Class, where I am the oldest by far, the 28 students break down this way.

The average age is 26.
There are 28 students, almost evenly split between males and females.
Six of the students are non-citizens, exchange students from China, Korea, and Ecuador.
Nine Students are registered to vote.
Four students are Iraq Vets (all 4 are registered democrats).
They don't trust people over 30.

In order to develop a culture of direct action you have to make them feel like they are part of the system. I lived through he 60's when we were "old enough to kill, but not for votin." We didn't have a choice but be part of the direct action.

In this highly sanitized and media controlled environment, I don't see any way of waking up the youth. They are not being drafted. There are being called to join the culture of direct consumerism, to buy all the knewest toys. Even for old folks like me, it is easier to listen to a lullaby from an Ipod than a protest song.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. The first step is to talk to them

they are...unlike your generation... (and I am in a strange place. Depends at where you look I am either the firest X Gen, or the last boomer... yep that year) able to participant in the system IF THEY WANT TO... the road is far more open.

But so are the distractions... and the lack of a common history... as I said... the first step is to teach that history that people don't know in this country... and not only the young folk either.

As I said... now that I finally own an I-POD... you can choose what to load on it... Howard Zinn is very aproachable.

And perhaps the comming crash (economic) or the comming draft, will finally make many of these kids get it... both will be a reality soon enough. And when the economic crash comes, things like oh I-PODs will be replaced by food as status symbols.

[AndyTiedye]

9. Why Should they Trust those Over 30?

The first bit of political activism that many of them participated in — trying to stop the "Rave Act" — was frustrated by Senator Biden as he grafted the Rave Act onto the Amber Bill in the conference committee in the dead of night. Not only did this decimate the dance scene in the US, but it also taught a whole generation of young people that their input into the political process was but a minor annoyance to those in power.

Since then there have been several proposals to reinstitute the draft in Congress by Rep. Rangel, and on a regular basis on DU and similar boards.

Do you really think you can get young people to support our cause by treating them so foully?

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Every generation has that problem

the boomers had to deal with a draft (which will return due to what the Republicans have done, and I hate to point this out, but will finally get the kids to the streets) but also that generation could not vote until they were 21, or drink for that matter

In my view, if you are old enough to serve, you are old eniough to drink and vote

As to the rave subcultuire... I have mixed feeligns about it, having treated kids of that age group from a panoply of health problems ranging from alcohol poisoning to drug overdoses From a health perspective I got it. And trust me, it was not fun calling parents at three in the morning becuase Junior was in the hospital... the joys of a border town by the way. That said... the US government has a serious problem iwth treating not only the "kids," but every body else as children.

And they are shocked why people don't vote?

It's not only the "kids"

[Hekate]

12. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

Hekate

[Ytzak]

27. Thankyou, Hekate

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Bad me did not even notice

welcome to DU...

Thanks Hekate... was late, did not look at post number

:toast:

[...of J.Temperance]

3. Correct me if I'm misinterpreting your OP....but are you

Suggesting that young people are somewhat dim and not FULLY clued in on the crap that's been happening since 2001?

Are you suggesting this, simply because tons of young people aren't taking to the streets?

I say this, as a young person myself....and maybe you should give us a bit more credit....not everyone feels the need to protest on the streets, afterall, times HAVE changed and yes this AIN'T the 1960s anymore....instead of protesting on the streets, I think we'd rather adopt a more intellectual and constructive set of ideals in dealing with situations at hand.



On Edit: Dammit spelling error

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. It ain't the 1920s either

or the 1870s. 1880s, 1890s, 1900, 1910... either

The point is that times have changed but insofar as direct action, no they have not.

It is a VALID and valuable tool... if you choose to use it.

And I will add, actually it is one of the most powerful tools, to take to the streets and take over the country.

Ask the French... how well direct action works if you don't believe me

[...of J.Temperance]

5. What would

You like young people to do? Take to the streets in direct action protesting?

In my humble opinion, this would be counter-productive in todays age....I mean we all saw the anti-War protests, and did they STOP the Iraq War? No.

I'm just not sure that direct action, in that particular form, is as beneficial nowadays as it might have been in decades past.

I'd also be rather concerned about a ton of people getting rounded up and arrested and whatnot....I think young people can protest BUT in OTHER ways than taking to the streets in the form of direct action.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. Once again ask the French how effective it is today

as to getting rounded up... excuse me while I laugh

You think workers were NOT rounded up when they asked for something as simple as a minimum wage and a forty hour week?

You believe the Sufragists were not rounded up?

Hell, our founding fathers knew they faced the gallows if they failed.

And tell me how effective have you been so far?

Direct Action is effective, US History, NOT ONLY the 1960s proves it

The times that saw people taking a more measured approach (such as the Boston Tea saloons of the 1850s) didn't stop things and in fact were part of the problem.

Now those who ran the undergriound railroda also faced death and jail.

So you are a little afraid of jail time?

What are you willing to give up in order to effectively challenge this nightmare that is disaster capitalism?

Perhaps you will be better off in going silent and surviving the coming night as best you can.

[...of J.Temperance]

7. On the most basic level

I'm not prepared to get arrested for ANYONE or ANYTHING.

With regard to "disaster capitalism"....I'm a Capitalist, as are I think a majority of people....the opposite to Capitalism simply isn't an option, either from a business perspective or an economic perspective.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Thanks for answering the question, now we know where you stand

And I know that you are not willing to risk your creature conforts, fair enough... I know who NOT to count in a street brawl

:-)

Don't worry, I am wiling to go to jail to protect your rights and your way of life... a slight difference huh?

now you should research what the term disaster capitalism means and the chicago school of economics... here is a short version of this chamelleon... NEO CON thinking,,, also known in the rest of the world as neo liberalism.

So when I use the term, I am being very technical about it... just like when I use the term fascist.

Here is a recomended book

Disaster Capitalism by Naomi Klein

Another crtiical one... Confessions of an Economic Hitman

By the way disaster capitalism has precious little to do with Capitalism

[Usrename]

11. OK, I'll admit it.

I was getting a good laugh out of this exchange, hehe. Especially the bits about not wanting to get rounded up and suggesting that there might be better ways to effect change in this modern era.

Except, on some level I would have to agree with that sentiment, at least a little bit. When you think about it, which of these two options is really the more subversive: having a national strike once a month that lasts for one day that only one-tenth of one-percent of the workers participate in, or; ten-percent of the borrowers refusing to make any payments on their credit-card debt until their demands are met?

I would say that withholding payments is much more subversive in the first place, and much easier to organize. Especially as people keep getting squeezed harder and harder for cash. It's a no-brainer if you ask me, stay home from work and cost myself a day's pay, or don't send a check to the money-grubbing usurers?

Disclaimer - I don't owe on any credit cards, not that it has anything to do with the discussion.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Have you participated in any of the national strikes?

I have... and so far they have been a failure. Mostly, they have not reached critical mass... and I don't expect young people to participate. (and many older adults), They are trapped in the I owe my shirt pattern.

[Ytzak]

28. This is more than just the Youth being distracted and the adults being in debt

We live in a culture that encourages extreme isolation. The idea that citizens owe something to their nation is foreign. If you want people to be involved they must feel like they have a stake in the system. Those with a stake in the system are willing to risk. If you have nothing to loose there is nothing to gain from risk.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. DING, DING, DING

you are right, and that is why my brother in law and I have argued that this is no longer a nation, really

[Usrename]

37. I've been self-unemployed for the past few years.

I've been bouncing from project to project, and I haven't participated in any strikes. I think that's why I question the feasibility of it having any success. I don't really have an employer, and even if I did, unless I worked for Wal-Mart or Halliburton it would be difficult to associate how taking my frustrations out on my employer would be a constructive action.

Now, OTOH, if I were paying 25% interest on a few thousand dollars of credit card debt, then it would be fairly easy to convince me to revolt from the system and not pay them. And my boss would never even have to know what my politics are if I were to make a political statement like that.

Also, having been raised a Christian, I can easily reconcile this kind of action with what is taught in the Gospels. See what I mean? And, there is no faster way to bring and understanding of how much power the people have than to organize them to do this one thing. Trust me, if over half the people in the country participated, they could negotiate for lower interest rates by Christmas. These companies, our economy, I don't think could last two months.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. If you and I and oh fifty million people didn't spend a coin for a day or two

they'd feel it

Extend that to a week with street demos... and they will have to listen, but you need a certain critical mass

And I am self employed... last tueday I didn't work

[...of J.Temperance]

41. Well

I'm a lover and not a fighter :)

I'll try and get hold of a copy of Naomi Klein's book, obviously I mightn't agree with everything she's going to be saying, but I'll be interested in reading it.

[Ytzak]

26. We only take risks for things that we hold dear.

Is Capitalism then worth nothing to you, that you are unwilling to risk even a few uncomfortable hours?

[...of J.Temperance]

42. Sometimes these things have a way of

Rectifying themselves, you know, a sort of pendulum mechanism....what swings one way, eventually must swing back the other way.

[notadmblnd]

13. They're not protesting because they're not affected by it

the difference between the 60'a and now is there was a draft. If congress ever re institutes the draft (which is not likely to happen, IMO), I'm quite positive our children will come out in force.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. I think the draft is actually closer than we think

and why the wedge is being put in place... I don't believe in coincidences at all

[notadmblnd]

33. Well when I went for my draft board training, that is not the impression I got

Republicans know that Americans will not stand for a draft and fear what will happen to them at election time. However, I do believe that if the US invades another country, the democrats will have nor other choice. So although at this point, it is unlikely, circumstances could force one upon us. Then and only then do I think our young people will organize and protest.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. The war with Iran will come by March or April next year

I am basing this on the talk that we have and the time-line for Iraq

Republicans don't expect what is coming, or rather Neocons don't expect it... Republicans do.

Just like Iraq, they believe this will be a cakewalk.

It will not.

And at that point either the US pulls out of the area... or calls up everybody who left the force in the last ten years and the draft boards.

It is not what they want to do... but the reality of what will happen, and us loosing the Fifth Fleet is not that exaggerated depending on where they are in the bathtub that is the Persian Gulf

And loosing the troops in Iraq... is not that unlikely either, given the lack of control over supply routes and we cannot supply more than 20% of their needs by air.

Now this is correct, once we have a draft... the youth perhaps will emerge from their hidey holes and realize that yes... they need to organize

[DCKit]

14. Threaten them with the draft, call them lame, get them pissed off....

Maybe then they'll get involved. I don't think simply telling them how much is at stake is going to help.

Remember, anyone under the age of 24 is, to some degree, a victim of "no child left behind." They didn't get much of a civics education. Was it intentional?

[kelligesq]

15. Aye, no civics education, no knowledge of rights & freedoms, easier to

take all freedoms away - there were actually conversations about this from those attending Bilderburg - that as the older Americans die off
who have patriotism and nationalism and knowledge
of the Constitution and Bill of Rights, one world government will be easier to enforce.

Not kidding you. Google some of it.

[DCKit]

16. It's intuitive. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Look at this thread for any evidence of this

OJ Temperance, as well intentioned as he is, does not realize that direct action is as old as apple pie

We don't teach kids labor history, for example

And the kids from my brother in law's previous marriage, they are a perfect example of this too... none of them ever
read the US Constitution in HS. One of them is going to college, sort off... the other two have no interest. A Fourth of July I gave them a copy of the constitution. They are not pricey copies, but your basic dollar a piece you could find at Borders.

They looked at me, and actually said... do we have to read this?

Yes. You should this is the most important book you could ever read and understand. YOUR rights are in there.

But it's hard to undersdand... and we left it at that.

And if one of them had read it, when he got in a bit of trouble with the local law, would have known to keep his mouth shut until
a lawyer showed up... instead he admitted to everything they wanted him to admit to... now here is how weak of a case it was... the DA refused to proceed with it, never mind he had an admission for all intents and purposes.

That is why I said and we failed them as a society

And right now what is going on.... is the planting of a wedge and I suspect it is because that draft is coming... and the powers that be realize that we will be in the streets in a NY Minute, but they realize the kids will not... at least long enough to draft a significant number of them with little fuss and little muss.

What I base this upon? The war in Iran is commimg... and after the Fifth Fleet and other troops are slaughtered, well where do you think they will find the replacement troops? Volunteers? Hardly. And yes, Bushy boy will be left with that in his record as well... and if he puts us in the midst of WW III... you can bet that draft will expand to many boomers who have served, with honor, and will be recalled. The only reason it has not been brought back, even though it makes sense from a tactical and strategic point of view; if this is such a war of civilization.. you do not fight a world war with three hundred thousand troops, the draft would be in place and should be in place. This shows how much of a lie the war currently is. But the next step... will force their hand. Why? The military's back is fully and completely broken.

So this wedge and how the young are falling for it... tells me... some in the policy field know this... and need to separate the kids who right now have a don't bother me attitude and we change the world from keyboards, from the old fogies who know better... and have taken the lessons of US History and USED them.

As they say... I no longer believe in coincidences. Of course we must ask... why Obama? After all, HE IS a boomer.

[havocmom]

39. There's a reason the neocon takeover was preceded by RW majorities in school boards

They got their local wingers to take over the education at local levels and get rid of a lot of things like civics, econ and much history.

Concentrate on trying to get prayer back in school and challenge a lot of books that showed the problems of class warfare & racism, but be sure to challenge them because or 'bad language'.

All part of the plan to set the stage for hundreds of thousands of people who did not get a decent education about history and rights.

[Beerboy]

19. Read more history, from as many sources as you can find. n/t.

[EFerrari]

21. Make activism a family project. n/t

[The2ndWheel]

22. We live in a world where physical reality means less and less

Other than environmentally.

[annabanana]

24. How about this: "The ionization of community"

I was thinking, during a regular commute the other day... I may travel these roads at the same time, on the same day as 70 - 80% of the same people on the road. In another age, in an open carriage, we would recognize each other and perhaps share a tale to pass the time on the road. Now there is no recognition, we are isolated in our respective, near-sound proofed machines, involved with our individualized interests. i.e. no community

Our kids communicate via chat room, face book, my space. Their "community" is not in the physical realm in the same way that ours (boomers) was. It is possible for a kid in a dorm to sleep in the bunk above his or her roommate, and know less about them than they do of their digitized community.

How can outrage EVER reach critical mass? How much farther away is the tipping point that moves people from words to action?

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. That is part of the project to atomiize a society

look at what happened after 9.11 and was done by design

People started to buy books and read and discuss... why? That is healthy.

Then the President told us to go shoping... one of the most isolated activities out there

Why? They needed to remake the society and ready it for disaster capitalism. Why didn't this work in Spain after the attacks?

Well Aznar started to lie his ass off and pull a Bush... Franco is a recent common history... they voted Aznar out like a bad dream.

In the states that common history (the sixties, even McCarthy) has been pulled under the rug as most hsitory classes do not reach any recent events, including McCarthy... why it was easy to create a new reality by these masters of disaster

[Odin2005]

44. So virtual communities aren't communities in your mind?

My generation is using things like Facebook to counter the social atomization you are criticizing. Just because a community is held together by fiber optic cables doesn't make it any less real. These virtual communities are the first step towards a technology-based participatory democracy.

[Mike03]

29. How I'd love to see 60s style protests now

That was before my time, but I've grown up cherishing the history of the late Sixties anti-war movement.

I'm from the generation that slipped through the cracks. We cried when Kurt Cobain died and didn't really have much power or much self-confidence. It was from hope to nihilism to worthlessness, and then a gradual ascent out of the hole of self-loathing back to feeling that I could make a difference.

But then we had the last seven years.

Just trying to be completely honest rather than disingenuously brave: the fear worked on me. I used to be brave and go to protests and get into trouble.

Now I know that every email I send, every phone call I make, every book I order, every package I received, even my backyard, is known to just about every damned person in the world if they want to find it.

More generally, we are lacking momentum. We are like kids at a swimming hole, where one says "Let's jump" but they all look at each other waiting for one to really jump, and they are all looking at each other, and no one is jumping.

We need to move in a large group because it has become a risk to move in small groups.

Also, there is so much division even amongst ourselves that it is hard to get that feeling that we are all watching each others' backs. There's not a sense of trust anymore, at least I don't feel it. I used to feel it but recently it has been nebulized by hostility.

For example, instead of pulling together to say WE NEED TO GET THE HELL OUT OF IRAQ, we quibble amongst ourselves about when, how, who should and who can do it.

We are tripping ourselves up.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. partly because the 60s actions were mostly single issue

these days you have the gamut, from PETA to free Mumia... and why I have argued that these demonstratons have to
target themselves as lasers.

Of course at times I thing the fact that some folks were ready to go a week after 9.11 gives me the shivers... and reminds me of CONTRIELPRO

[Mike03]

34. How can we regain our balance and somehow

become effective again?

You have obviously thought a great deal about the mess we are in. But what do we do about this?

When Noam Chomsky talks about how isolated we have become, I understand completley what he means. I have become isolated, and afraid, and withdrawn. I don't really know how to undo this.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Start by talking with neighbors and friends

that alone is a revolutionary act

[Hidden Stillness]

40. The Emotional Distress is not a "Failing," but is the Material for Thought, Itself

I have perhaps a slightly different take on this: I don't think of the fear, isolation and lack of a felt connection as a "problem" that has to be solved first, and then we can start to rebuild our sense of community and get back to solving America's real problems, etc.; I think of the social depression and fear as being at the central core of our National crisis, and will be addressed and solved along with poverty, crime, corruption, health care, and all the rest. It is not a "pest" to be rid of first, and it is not your (or anyone else's) personal failing, it is the societal ill itself. I think this era is very similar to, and probably an extension of, the era of the '70s when President Carter gave that great and prescient speech usually called the "malaise" speech, actually titled "A Crisis of Confidence," delivered July 15, 1979, available http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/carter/filmmore/ps_crisis.html for example. This stunning and brilliant speech captures the rudderless, lost and hopeless, angry and worried, no-longer proud or optimistic feeling so common again today. I think the sense of lack of society, etc., is not a nuisance that should be gotten past, to then get to the real issues and sense of common purpose--I think it IS the true material for study and understanding, itself. This IS the issue, itself. (I know no one actually put it that way, as if dismissing it, but I wanted to make a point of it.)

I don't think there will ever again be the total National unity and spirit of, for example, the New Deal/World War II generation, and all their pitch-in-and-help sacrifice and work, just by trying to encourage it, until the expressions for things are translated to the modern cut-off mind. Things have to be expressed to a population that is way too manipulated by sales techniques, that often does not even know its own opinions anymore, only the latest media slogans, that is far too self-conscious of the visual impression made on others, and endlessly being judged sexually, and that no longer even has a sense of a greater truth or long-term, large scale historical feeling of permanence. I think that more progress will be made on getting people engaged again socially and politically, when the mind-ripping effects of corporate control of every public expression of anything, will be not ignored or dismissed, but on the other hand, analyzed itself, as the main culprit in all this. This was something that was done to us all, after all; it is NOT individual and personal. I was just hearing another news story on local (Canadian, CBC; I live in Michigan) news, that anxiety and depression are now becoming the most common health related problems in the workplace, both for absenteeism and problems on the job, replacing heart problems as #1 health problem. This actually IS one of the statements of our era, and a measure of our corporate oppression. I would treat these emotional stresses as parts of the larger political issue itself, understood as a "malaise" if you will, that is affecting all of us.

[Odin2005]

45. Don't forget about how ANSWER always comes and hijacks the protests into the...

..."Free Mumia" type trivia instead of concentrating about impeachment ending the damn war. :grr:

[Lilith Velkor]

32. An economic collapse can bring the whole family together

Like in the beginning of "The Take," when the nice office ladies were smashing up a bank with their shoeheels.

If you haven't seen it, it's worth a rental.

[Perry Logan]

43. The corporate media would not report the protests. Young people are smart enough to know that.

[Ytzak]

46. Are the youth protesting to get their 15 minutes of fame?

Or are they protesting to because there is a problem that needs fixed and direct action is the only response?

The big media don't have to report this. We have this incredible resource that, like Gutenberg's printing press, makes most of the big media obsolete as Gutenberg made monastic scriptoriums obsolete. The computer makes each of us a media organization.

Protest!

Take Video and still images!

Go viral and spread the word!