The Democratic Party is only 40% Liberal.

[CT_Progressive]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/08/09/democratic-party-more-lib_n_59793.html

That means 60% of Democrats are not liberal. Most of that 60% are moderates, with a small percent falling in as Conservative.

Juxtapose this information against the fact that the vast majority of the Republican Party is Conservative, with a small percentage Moderate, and 0% Liberal.

Think about this every time you post about our Party in Congress and how they act, how they vote, etc.

[madfloridian]

1. You sure twisted the first paragraph's meaning. Amazing.

"The Democratic Party is growing more liberal for the first time in a generation.

It's more antiwar than at any time since 1972. Support is growing for such traditionally liberal values as using the federal government to help the poor. And 40 percent of Democrats now call themselves liberal, the highest in more than three decades and twice the low-water mark recorded as the conservative Reagan revolution swept the country in the early 1980s."

And the liberals are going to leave the leaders behind if they don't catch up to us.

I am amazed at this board sometime, the way we are spun here,

[Lerkfish]

2. the DLC has a stake in muddying the waters.

[madfloridian]

8. Well, the waters are getting muddy here at DU.

:hi:

[TahitiNut]

11. It's not "mud".

[madfloridian]

13. lol

:rofl:

[Spazito]

21. ROFL!

I love your posts, they always go right to the point!

:rofl:

[Beerboy]

54. The operative word is 'growing',

I agree w/ you that the OP discarded the context of the piece @ Huffpost altogether and just threw in some spin.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. More Importantly There Are A Lot More Cons Than Libs In The General Electorate

That's just a fact...

[madfloridian]

14. Did you read the article? The OP misrepresented the premise.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/18692.html

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. I Didn't Want To Pile On

I was just making a different observation...

About forty percent of the electorate is moderate, thirty five percent is conservative, and twenty five percent is liberal...

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html

I realize these terms mean different things to different people but I don't think any serious scholar of America would dispute the notion that America is the most conservative industrialized large democracy with the possible exception of Australia and Japan...

[madfloridian]

30. The article is saying that Democrats are in effect taking the word liberal back.

Paraphrasing.

It is an excellent article from McClatchy, and the OP misrepresented entirely.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. That's Fine With Me

I'm a liberal... I don't need any qualifiers...

[CT_Progressive]

34. I did not misrepresent the premise at all.

The premise is that our party is not all Liberals. Its not even majority Liberal.

[madfloridian]

38. No, you should really be ashamed for the way you spun it.

.

[CT_Progressive]

42. Again, I didn't spin anything whatsoever.

Its simply in your own head.

[Beerboy]

70. What you're saying is technically accurate,

but you're minimizing/erasing the main point, which is that the liberal faction is the dynamic and growing faction of the Democratic party.
It's not majority liberal @ this point, but it's trending upwards, which I thought to be the salient point of the piece you cited @ Huffpost.
I could be wrong, I have been before, and will be again, but I was seeing spin.

[Clark2008]

80. You don't know that the majority aren't liberals...

or at least I don't because the link you sent me to is only a paragraph.

If 40 percent of the party are liberal, and 30 percent are moderates and 30 percent are conservatives, then the majority of the party ARE liberals.

I don't know what the other figures are to make that determination.

[CT_Progressive]

84. Thats semantics and doesn't help anything.

60% of our party isn't Liberal, and they act accordingly.
60% of the time, our elected Dems do not take the liberal approach.
60% of the time, our elected Dems cast their votes in a moderate or conservative way.

People on this board act like All Democrats everywhere are liberal, and those that don't are "ruining our party". As if our party would be 99% liberal without the DINOs.

[patrice]

17. I'll bet they're "Cons" when asked about policies that affect others

and "Libs" when asked about policies that affect themselves.

[TahitiNut]

4. "40 percent of Democrats now call themselves liberal"

The distinction between the label people employ for self-identification and their actual political orientation is huge. The right has successfully demeaned and dismissed 'liberal' as some kind of leper ... someone you wouldn't want to have a beer with. Your OM merely perpetuates and continues this Bork-like corruption of language - and speciously attempts to embed a meme that's founded in propaganda, not fact.

[madfloridian]

5. You really should apologize for that spin you just did.

You must be dizzy.

Original article by McClatchy...showing how the party is becoming more liberal in spite of the "leaders" dragging us to the right. Links to Borosage, other "liberals".

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/18692.html

I expect an apology for your spin.

[CT_Progressive]

35. I made 0 spin.

Maybe its in your head.

[Rabo Karabekian]

6. I don't Really Think of Myself as Liberal

Well I consider myself left of liberal (a social democrat) so I wouldn't have answered in the affirmative on this thing either.

[Beerboy]

82. Well all I have for that is,

Just kidding, welcome to DU from a fellow n00b!:hi:

[OHdem10]

7. It is all in how you ask the question.

Without using the word Liberal ask questions on specific policies
and you will find there are more Liberals than will admit.

The Country is mad as hell with Congress, yes the Democratic
Congress. The Moderate Dems are the ones holding up action in
our own party. The Dems in Congress are not listening their
own Democratic Constituents. They are appeasing the GOPers
in their district who vote for them. They call themselves
moderate.

[stray cat]

16. I think you are right if one doesn't believe complete agreement

with every policy is required to be progressive. The term liberal sometimes seems to be used as if everyone must believe the absolute same things and most of us pick and choose different sides to different issues ie moderates.

[patrice]

9. Don't mistake words for reality.

People are more verbs than they are nouns.

Assuming any absolute semantic schema is the essence of oppression.

[Beerboy]

77. Huh. Must be an English major.

What does that mean?

[557188]

10. "Liberal"

Most of us educated folks wouldn't dare use a right wing term like Liberal to describe ourselves.

I am a socialist.

[patrice]

12. If you have the courage to say you are a "socialist", why don't you

have the courage to use your real name?

[blondeatlast]

45. Edit: meant to respond to 551788's post of his "shame" of being labeled liberal. nt

[blondeatlast]

46. YOU let yourself get sucked into the Republican Noise Machine.

Seriously, what is wrong with being "liberal?" I PROUDLY describe myself that way as do many, many others. If you are afraid of a mere term, you aren't going to be very helpful in defeating the oppsition in power.

Liberal. Four inch hell wearing (that makes me nearly 6 feet tall, btw), ass kicking, lipstick lady liberal. And damn proud to say it.

[Cha]

15. Yeah, I'm thinking the dinos

are loving all this confusion about labeling.

[MrMickeysMom]

18. Yeah, but 40% liberal on WHAT? Fiscal responsibilities? Social? I'm confused...

... I'm sure there are good statistics out there that point to the majority of Americans, whether they identify themselves as "liberals" or "conservatives" that cross over on issues that are more attuned to how liberal Democrats feel.

:shrug: ... Aren't there?

So, if you broke me down (I think I'm part of the "Democratic wing" of the Democratic party, a la Howard Dean)-

I'm a fiscal conservative with the way tax money is allocated-- but that means, I see living within my own budget (balance it, save money aside, if poss)
I'm a fiscal conservative with the way my taxes are allocated to other items (hey, isn't this war fucking OFF budget?)
I'm a fiscal conservative with the way my taxes are allocated to give a "leg up" to others - I'd like to think funding educational opportunities pays back ten fold, but I'd like accountability with the outcomes. If you pay for someone's education, it should yeild an outcome, but you should help with childcare REGARDLESS.

You can't break down how I'm conservative very well and fit it into a liberal definition.

[noiretextatique]

23. i think you are fiscally responsible

unlike the so-called conservatives who are currently foolishly spending billions on the war.

[MrMickeysMom]

28. And yet...

When we ran the numbers today (being responsible), we had a surplus for our household this month of -

$39.00!

Damn, it's hard to be responsible.... :hi:

[noiretextatique]

32. it is hard, and we know how georgie hates hard, hard work

like presidenting responsibly. at least you have a surplus, unlike the USA :hi:

[fascisthunter]

19. The Timing....

all about timing. Man are conservatives and Dinos scared today! Good!

[Blackhatjack]

20. Depends on what the label 'Liberal' means and who is defining it...

In truth there are no exclusively 'liberal' policies and positions.

If a so-called 'liberal' policy may be good for all Americans, even if the other side classifies it as being 'liberal.'

[IndianaJones]

22. but they're good for at least 75% of the laughs. nt.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. Here is the FIRST PARAGRAPH without the obvious misrepesentation

The Democratic Party is growing more liberal for the first time in a generation.


It's more antiwar than at any time since 1972. Support is growing for such traditionally liberal values as using the federal government to help the poor. And 40 percent of Democrats now call themselves liberal, the highest in more than three decades and twice the low-water mark recorded as the conservative Reagan revolution swept the country in the early 1980s.

[kelligesq]

89. Yay. That's me. Liberal. I dont know what this "Progressive" stuff is - where

is the URL for those statistics please?

we should be sending it to Pelosi's office. grin

[Jade Fox]

26. The fact that 40 % are willing to identify as "Liberals" after....

the Right's effort to demonize the label is actually quite encouraging.

[madfloridian]

31. The article was encouraging. The OP spun it.

:hi:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

27. “In matters of conscience, the law of majority has no place.” Gandhi

"A thing moderately good is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice." Thomas Paine

[TreasonousBastard]

29. Well, of course you're gonna get trashed for...

spinning this article.

The US spent a generation going as far right as it could, and is now heading back toward the left. Nothing unusual about this, but the fact does remain that it is not in the least "liberal" by any definition of the term.

And, the local Democrats that I've dealt with here and in Joisey don't really fit any pattern. In Joisey it was all machine with absolutely no interest in national issues. Here, it's fairly liberal, but we're outnumbered at least 3 to 1. I say "at least" because almost half of the local voters don't list a party affiliation.

So, talking about leading Democrats pulling the party to the right just doesn't ring all that true.I think they are mainly looking for some spot in the political spectrum where they can feel comfortable.

[CT_Progressive]

36. I fail to see where I spun anything.

Spinning the article would imply that I either:

a) made it out to be more positive than it was
b) made it out to be more negative than it was

I simply pulled the number, 40%, and used it unemotionally.

Our party, as of this second, is around 40% liberal and 60% non-liberal (moderate + conservative).

How is that spinning anything?

[TreasonousBastard]

39. I don't think you did, much anyway, but I was...

actually referring to the other replies accusing you of it.

(I really hate using that sarcasm thingy, but it makes it too easy and leads to kneejerk pissiness when missing.)

[Swamp Rat]

37. LOLOLOL!!!!!

:rofl:

[Beerboy]

76. Lol!

I don't know the OP's gettin off on that stop. I thought I saw spin though.

[ConsAreLiars]

40. If you cared for the facts you would have discovered that your "This means ..." conclusion is pure

BS and absolutely false. Wishful thinking, self-deception, or just making up shit. But absolutely false. Those who read your fabrication and were misled may want to see the actual data: http://www.electionstudies.org/nesguide/toptable/tab3_1.htm if you actually

40% "liberal," way up as the article notes. 5% of Republicans think they are "liberal."

28% "moderate." Only slightly higher than the 22% who use that self-description and are admitted Republicans.

10% "conservative" compared to 61% of Republicans.


When you have to deceive yourself and your readers to make your argument, well, I guess most know what that means.

(edit typo)

[CT_Progressive]

41. Your post confirms mine - how is mine BS again?

My post: 40% of Dems are Liberal
Your post: 40% of Dems are Liberal

Also, your link does not show what you posted.

[ConsAreLiars]

92. My post confirms that your statements were absolutely false and deceptive.

The article and the poll data show that 40% of people calling themselves Democrats also call themselves Liberal. That is not in dispute.

However, you, claimed that "That means 60% of Democrats are not liberal."

That was pure BS, a fabrication. A deliberate lie or simple ignorance? Who knows, but it is false. I cited the poll data. The numbers they found were 28% "moderate" and 10% "conservative," whatever those terms might mean to the respondents. 22% refused to answer.

Then you went on to again invent another fiction that was contrary to the facts: "Most of that 60% are moderates, with a small percent falling in as Conservative." Why you would want to invent such a story is for you to explain, but again, 28% is not, in fact "most" of 60%.

As for the links to the three sets of data, they were at the bottom of the page I cited. Perhaps the labeling was too complicated:

"Percent among demographic groups who responded:

Liberal (1,2,3)
Moderate
Conservative (5,6,7)"

But since that was a bit too hard for you, here are direct links to the three pages that describe the three groups:
http://www.electionstudies.org/nesguide/2ndtable/t3_1_1.htm
http://www.electionstudies.org/nesguide/2ndtable/t3_1_2.htm
http://www.electionstudies.org/nesguide/2ndtable/t3_1_3.htm

Oh, consistent with your pattern of making up shit, another minor point. You, using your faith based fantasy view of the world, asserted that 0% of people who call themselves Republicans also call themselves liberal. The poll data puts the number at 5%.

[KharmaTrain]

43. My Liberal Is Your Conservative

Who says that one must live their life as solely one ideology or another...or who defines it? I know many people who are socially "liberal" (pro choice, equal rights) but fiscally conservative. Or some who are socially conservative in their private lives but supportive of what would be considered socially liberal causes with their votes and money.

Simply slapping labels on people based on their political affiliation is lazy reporting. Democrats cover a wide range of interests...social, financial and regional and to broad-brush what a Democrat is New York is vs. one in Montana is disengenuous. For years I've canvassed voters...and most Democrats I call on would be easily considered "conservative"...even arch-conservative in terms of what is posted here on DU.

Life isn't so black and white...

[CT_Progressive]

44. There is no such thing as "socially liberal, fiscally conservative"

If you care about people socially, you must vote to fund government programs to help them.

To say "I feel these people are in need! But, hey, don't tax me to pay for the help you give them." makes someone a flat-out conservative. Ain't nothing liberal about it.

Just sayin.

[KharmaTrain]

47. You Said That...I Didn't

Rarely have I run into people who feel the government shouldn't help people...it's how the money is spent and/or wasted...it's how its administered...how much of that money actually gets to the people in need vs. those who suck off the government trough. Those who claim they're taxed "too much" are selfish, arrogant assholes who would still bitch about something...a repugnican pavlovian response these days.

Fiscally conservative means not throwing money away...not gambling on speculative stocks or buying into ponzi schemes...it's making the most of the money one earns and to spend it wisely. It has ZERO to do with taxes or being "socially responsible"...if anything, being fiscally conservative generally means one has money to lend or donate to worthy causes.

Cheers...

[CT_Progressive]

48. We're on the same page. :) -nt

[TAZller]

49. Untrue....

You can be both fiscally conservative and socially liberal. Voting to ensure your tax dollars are spent on socially liberal ideals without increasing the tax burden of those affected for example. Demanding corporate tax subsidies are reduced, increasing the burden percentage of the wealthy, redirecting national defense dollars to social programs, demanding result based metrics or efficiency... all examples of fiscal conservation towards the goal of social liberalism. It isn't how much is spent, it is where and how it is spent. Add to that non-tax based liberal ideals of gay marriage, racial equality, etc... You are thinking of social liberalism to narrowly...

[CT_Progressive]

50. Sorry, friend, you're talking about being fiscally RESPONSIBLE.

Fiscally Conservative means lowering taxes and CUTTING government programs to help people.

[TAZller]

57. Wrong again... my friend....

Fiscally Conservative ideals speak of balanced budgets. There is no implied social bias one way or the other even if you (wrongly) believe so.

[CT_Progressive]

58. That is simply not true.

Balancing the budget is neither conservative nor liberal.

Do you think that "fiscally liberal" means NOT having a balanced budget? ROFL.

No, you're simply talking about being fiscally responsible, here.

Fiscal conservatism is a political phrase term used in North America to attack government spending and advocate instead lower spending and a lower federal debt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiscal_conservatism

[TAZller]

75. If you're going to quote something....

You might try being a bit less transparent. If you are going to quote Wikipedia as the grail of your knowledge, you don't help your argument by shameless omission:

Fiscal conservatism is a political phrase term used in North America to attack government spending and advocate instead lower spending and a lower federal debt; it may also include higher taxes in order to lower the debt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiscal_conservatism

Even if you use this poorly phrased definition in its unedited entirety, there is absolutely no implied social bias and is in opposition to your previously posted "definition":

Fiscally Conservative means lowering taxes and CUTTING government programs to help people.

You say lower taxes, your link(without the omission) says may raise.... Cut and Spin Again?

The problem here is you are assuming the contextually incorrect use of the word "conservative" when modified by the word "fiscally" as implying A Conservative. When one states they are fiscally conservative, they are directing the reader to the fiscal meaning of the word conservative; to conserve. Not the political meaning as in A Conservative. It is the addition of the words "socially liberal" that add the clue to their social bias.

You make my point exactly when you state "Balancing the budget is neither conservative nor liberal"..... Correct. So when a fiscal conservative speaks of a balanced budget, amongst the many things they speak of, there is no implied political social bias here.

And yes, having a policy of an unbalanced budget or debt financed budget does make you fiscally liberal, but does not imply you are A Liberal. And certainly doesn't mean you are necessarily being irresponsible (ever heard of economic investment?).

[ourbluenation]

53. oh horsemanure. I worked in government... and not in any social programs.

it was transportation. you've never seen so much waste in your life, so much red tape and bureaucracy. sorry, but on some things i'm fiscally conservative. on many things i'm liberal. and a few things i'm moderate.

i hate these labels.

[CT_Progressive]

55. You, too, are totally and utterly confusing the word "Responsible" with "Conservative".

Not wasting money is Fiscally RESPONSIBLE.
That has -0- to do with being Fiscally Conservative.

Being fiscally conservative means you want to cut taxes, and then CUT federal programs from the budget to account for the reduced tax income.
That has nothing to do with not wasting money on red tape or true waste. Thats just a fiscally responsible thing to account for, liberal or conservative.

[ProfessorGAC]

61. Fiscal Conservatism Isn't What The Right Wing Has Defined

A fiscal conservative can be one who resists deficit spending. IOW, i can be fiscally conservative by insisting that taxes be high enough to generate revenues to cover expenditures. It does not require low taxes.

You have bought into the right wing spin, and not the definition applied by economists.
The Professor

[CT_Progressive]

62. Show me an elected Conservative that has voted to raise taxes.

Theory is great, Professor, but reality is conservatives vote to lower taxes and cut spending.

[ProfessorGAC]

63. You Prove My Point

You have agreed to a definition that is inaccurate. You're volunteering to be wrong.
The Professor

[CT_Progressive]

64. How is it inaccurate in any way?

Actual elected Conservatives, actual official voting records.

vs.

A definition.

I didn't say you were wrong, I just said there is theory, and there is reality. And the current reality does not uphold the theory.

[ProfessorGAC]

71. One Cannot Simply Reject Reality and Substitute Your Own

(Apologies to Adam Savage.) Just because right wing politicans have co-opted the term to mean what they want it to mean, doesn't make them right. And accepting that incorrect definition doesn't change the definition.

Reality has nothing to do with it. In reality, the Iraq war is immoral and yet still going on. It's not less wrong just because some buffoons say it's a good thing.

Wrong is wrong, no matter who tries to change the definition.
The Professor

[CT_Progressive]

72. Well, I certainly see your point.

And I don't disagree with you on the nature of the original term, and I think that definition is correct.

I guess we're saying the same thing - Republicans have co-opted the term to mean "lower taxes and cut programs", and the other part of fiscal conservatism (raising taxes to cover costs) has been ditched as politically unpalatable.

Its possible the definition of the term should change to reflect the times.

[ProfessorGAC]

73. Well, I See Your Point Too

But i refuse to allow the term to be redefined. I will fight against the acceptance of that terminology. It may be tilting at windmills, but i can live with that.
The Professor

[kelligesq]

90. Of course there is. Always has been. Fiscally conservative may mean not

building a bridge to nowhere

not allowing Lockheed Martin to do millions in overrun without checking why, where, who

not giving out no bid contracts for billions

not allowing an administration to say it lost 8 billion dollars and not investigating it and demanding accountability...

etc etc
you get the picture

[Deja Q]

51. OMG! We're doomed. Doomed!!! DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Oh well.

[CT_Progressive]

52. Beee Beee Beeker!

[flashl]

56. The definition of "Liberal" and Democrats really depends on "who" you ask ...

Will conservative black voters remain cemented to Democratic Party?

This article is about South Carolina, but probably represent Black demographics across the country.

.. snip ..

The wide-ranging poll shows that black people aren’t monolithic. They don’t think alike or agree on all issues. But they do vote alike, almost always favoring the Democratic Party. And that despite the fact 60 percent of those surveyed said they considered themselves “very conservative” to “moderate.”

According to the poll, 67 percent of the more than 650 people surveyed say they are Democrats, and 80 percent expect to vote in January’s Democratic presidential primary. Only 3 percent said they considered themselves Republicans, while 19 percent said they were independent.

Consider these other noteworthy poll results:

• 53 percent said they felt the Republican Party is working to attract black voters. Of those, 61 percent said they felt the party is either very effective or somewhat effective in its efforts.

• 56 percent said they felt the national Democratic Party was taking their votes for granted. Fifty-seven percent said they felt the S.C. Democratic Party was taking them for granted.

But when asked which party they trust the most, 54 percent said Democrats on all issues.

So what’s cementing black voters to the Democratic Party? And why don’t black folks, more socially conservative than the general population, vote Republican?

[mmonk]

59. I didn't know the constitution and the rule of law

was liberal or conservative. But apparently, it is deemed liberal these days.

[slackmaster]

60. Your appeal to isness offends me

Slapping arbitrary labels on people serves no useful purpose.

[Moochy]

65. Note all the users with

Progressive in their names who are backing DLC positions. funny that.

[CT_Progressive]

66. I oppose the DLC.

funny that.

[Moochy]

68. I know its convenient for them

To have such a species of opposition.

[CT_Progressive]

69. I'm an extreme left liberal.

You are one of those people that sees what you want to see, instead of what is actually there.

This is not a DLC-support post.

This is a reality check to DUers who think our party is "selling out" to the DLC, when in reality, the majority of our party is actually moderate-to-conservative to begin with.

[Swamp Rat]

78. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!

:rofl:

[CT_Progressive]

85. I worked for Ned, thanks.

[Swamp Rat]

86. If you say so.

:D

[CT_Progressive]

87. I have a very nice knit cap to prove it.

How many people would even know that Ned gave out knit caps, eh ?
:)

[Swamp Rat]

88. Not me.

I drowned after hurricane Katrina.

O8)

[Forkboy]

74. I can think of three off the top of my head.

[Swamp Rat]

79. Just add maple syrup

:D

[Forkboy]

83. I love this place.

:D

[Moochy]

67. To balance out the cognitive dissonance in the universe

..I'm going to make an account on FR:

CA_Conservative

[Swamp Rat]

81. Don't do it!!

You might get podded! :yoiks:

[depakid]

91. No such things as a "moderates."

The only accurate term with respect to policy choices is "far right enabler."

[defendandprotect]

93. America is liberal --- I believe Chomsky on that one . . .

AND, I think his reasoning is valid ---

goes something like this ---

First, that he's aware that they do studies regularly ---
and they know . .. this is a liberal nation.

Even so far as the understanding that Mexicans once were the occupants ---
California, New Mexico, Colorado --- etal --

Additionally, he points out that IF this were not a liberal nation . . .

then they wouldn't have to control the press or control media -- but they have to.

And we can see that they have to try to control the internet now ---

Why? Because this is a liberal nation.

Again --- if this were a right-wing nation --- even up to 60% my gawd !!! ---
they wouldn't have to do anything ---

So .... no . . . America is a liberal nation --- and most Dems are liberal ---

[leftofthedial]

94. the word "liberal" has been demonized

it would be far more useful to poll people on positions than on labels