The Philosophy Of Liberty

[Voice for Peace]

A very compelling flash animation.
Not exactly political.
Totally worth watching.
http://www.isil.org/resources/philosophy-of-liberty-english.swf

[Naturyl]

1. A swing and a miss!

I waited for the anti-taxation "theft" propaganda to appear, and sure enough, it did. And that was followed by an even crazier rejection of all government.

I thought this was utter crap, but it's slickly-presented. I'm sure it will appeal to a lot of people, although I wouldn't expect too much luck here at DU.

Also, I think people should be aware of the extreme right-wing organization that presents this, which includes a section called "CELEBRATING THE GENIUS OF AYN RAND:"

http://www.isil.org/ - warning, vomit alert.

[Voice for Peace]

4. OK so we disagree

I looked at it purely on face value.. I don't see how anyone can disagree with it.. but we have different biases apparently. I don't like government taking my money and killing people with it.

[Naturyl]

5. We don't just disagree, I find this extremely destructive

For the reasons I stated below. The presentation is anti-taxation, anti-government, anti-equality, anti-progress, and frankly anti-American, in my view. And the website which promotes it is something no self-respecting Democrat is going to touch with a ten-foot pole. "Celebrating the Genius of Ayn Rand?" Not even if she were the last woman on earth, my friend.

[Voice for Peace]

7. OK well I still disagree because

I don't think it is destructive for a person to break out of their way of thinking and consider other perspectives. Progress is not something that can be imposed on people, and I am sure you know this. I'm not taking any stand on this politically, but I completely agree with the gist of this, which is why I posted it. I don't think anybody has the right to impose their beliefs or their agendas on another human being, period. I wouldnt say "anti-government" -- I think that's misleading. More like: render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. Government should be small and well pruned, not running everybody's lives and wasting everybody's money. Do you know where your tax dollars are being spent, and by whom? It's pretty scary.

[Naturyl]

10. Small enough to "drown it in the bathtub," by any chance?

What else have you got for us? And will you be voting for Ron Paul, just to take a wild guess?

[Voice for Peace]

12. LOL That's very funny..

First of all I doubt Ron Paul will get the nomination; secondly I have many misgivings about him as president even though I agree with his stands against the war and in favor of the Constitution. I like Kucinich very much and if he gets the nomination -- hell why not -- I will definitely vote for him. I mostly like the candidates or non candidates who don't play manipulative mind games with the people of this country; who speak the truth and stand behind their words. Anybody who publicly stands up to Bush I like just on principal, no matter who they are. ok maybe there are some exceptions.. I'm not crazy about OBL for example. But generally I start cheering when anybody calls a spade a spade as they say.

[Naturyl]

14. Okay, fair enough, but please do understand...

That Dennis Kucinich would eat a brick before he would agree with the Flash animation you presented. His economic views and those presented by the right-wing libertarian organization behind that Flash movie are light-years apart. You can bet your bottom dollar that Kucinich would have nothing but scorn for a group that promotes Ayn Rand.

[Voice for Peace]

16. You may be right, I can't speak for DK

But I did hear Ron Paul say that he and Dennis Kucinich are good friends so there must be some common ground. As I see it.. and I am not promoting RP here.. both are being painted & viewed as absurd extremists, not only by the media but by the masses. This is a shame. Both have much of value to say.

Personally I would like to see a Team President instead of just one guy or woman.. ie, a small team of people with somewhat conflicting viewpoints -- with a legal mandate that they had to reach unanimity on all Executive Decisions.

It would either be an awesome product they'd come up with; or they'd be kept so busy that the people would have more space to think for themselves, and less money would get spent on stupid stuff.

[Naturyl]

18. Ron Paul has nothing of value to say...

That Dennis Kucinich can't say better. Kucinich stands for everything Democrats could possibly like about Ron Paul, and he also stands against everything Democrats hate about Ron Paul.

I don't need to "speak for Dennis" to know that he has no use for right-wing libertarian economics. He makes that perfectly clear in every possible way. And the fact that he and Paul are personal friends does not mean they are political allies. They are not and they never will be.

[Voice for Peace]

20. again, I can't speak for Kucinich.

But.. many Republicans who won't listen to Kucinich are listening to Paul.

What's important is that the message is heard and understood.
End this war. Quit fucking around in the Middle East.
Quit wasting taxpayers' money and destroying the economy.
Quit destroying the Constitution.

And .. we don't need any new wars. I am not in favor of being at war with anybody here on DU. If it can't end here, how can it ever end anywhere?

[Naturyl]

23. I agree, war as an instrument of policy has got to go.

But I'm not going to destroy this country to get it done, and that's exactly what Hoover-eqsue lassiez-faire libertarian economics would do.

[applegrove]

2. I couldn't make it all the way through. Reminds me of *'s Ownership Society.

[Naturyl]

3. Yes, it's truly horrible.

I can't resist posting again to underscore just how bad this bit of propaganda is. No one who considers themselves aligned with the Democratic party has any business getting anywhere near this kind of thinking, in my opinion. This sort of thing is exactly what is eating away at American culture right now and empowering right-wing economic views.

People need to know that democracy is founded on two basic principles, not just one. And those two principles are liberty and EQUALITY. Rubbish like this Flash movie emphasizes only an extremely self-centered view of liberty while ignoring *equality* completely. It's bad for America and it's bad for democracy.

[Voice for Peace]

6. But would you accomplish equality by means of force?

I honestly don't understand how this country or world is going to ever transform to such an extent where cheat and deceit are not the norms and don't hold all the power. I know that in the Democratic party there is an ideal of compassion in addition to everything else. Yet even in the Democratic party there are those who advocate force against people who are not criminals. For example if you don't want to pay taxes to support an illegal and immoral war, somebody is going to come and lock you up. If you resist you're going to be roughed up. The jails are full of people who've been locked away for victimless crimes. I think it's a shame to throw the baby -- the innate liberty which belongs to every human being -- out with the bathwater, which has been contaminated with scum from every political party, sad to say including Dems.

I don't see this as propaganda but I think you have viewed it through your own personal bias and missed the points of value. The Constitution does not give the Federal Government the right to kill, rob, or enslave people. Yet it is happening all the time, all over the place.

[Naturyl]

9. The constitution provides for taxation.

Taxation is not "theft" as right-wing libertarian propaganda insists. Rather, it is a fair and reasonable obligation one incurs in return for the benefits of society.

But I'm not going to argue this at length on DU, of all places. I can't imagine that this sort of material even belongs here, but that's for the management to decide, I guess.

[applegrove]

26. I agree the material doesn't belong on DU. And those taxes the rich pay

are for things like the roads their stocks use to get a product to market and policing so all their private property of their business is protected. And taxes are also to create a middle class. Old economic models assumed that everyone has perfect information on what is being bought and sold. That is turning out not to be true. People need things like good public schooling and the like to fix market failure in that regard.

[Odin2005]

8. Libertarian BS.

If you are a corporate serf living on minimum wage your theoretical liberty is a joke. You cannot keep constantly increasing liberty because you will eventually run into the "paradox of freedom," in which increasing one person's liberty decreases the liberty of another. That is why Libertarianism can never work, it will only lead to the average Joe losing his liberty to corporations.

[Voice for Peace]

11. I also don't see how Libertarianism can ever work

even though in essence it makes a lot of sense to me; eg,that taxation ought to be voluntary, not mandated by force. But I can't envision how we could ever get there from here. And I don't know how you prevent corporations from swindling and deceiving people.

But I DO strongly agree that nobody has the right to impose their power or agenda on another by force; and that choice and individual freedom is our birthright, and no government has the right to take it away. In my own mind it is still puzzling, and I am trying to learn.

I posted this because I find it thought-provoking, not to promote a libertarian agenda here on DU. I am disheartened by some of the kneejerk nasty responses wherever this has been posted. Can't we all think for ourselves? Shouldn't Democrats be thinking about what real freedom means?

[Naturyl]

13. Look, it's nothing personal.

You seem like a nice person as far as that goes. But the nasty responses are very much called for, in my opinion. You are coming to a Democratic site and presenting extremely right-wing economic views. Sorry, but there has to be a response to that. Letting this kind of thing slip in under the radar is exactly how we got into the mess we're in. This economic philosophy has been tried by Herbert Hoover and it didn't work. It was been tried again by Reagan and the Bushes, and it's not working now. It has been tried, it has failed, and it deserves no further consideration.

Again, you seem like a decent sort in terms of personality. But please do us a favor and promote this sort of thing to the Ron Paul crowd. That is the audience that wants to hear it.

[Voice for Peace]

15. LOL Thanks, I am a nice person, but

your post was kind of a polite way of telling me to fuck off and get lost.. right?

I think I understand the problem here... is that everyone is viewing this from an acutely political mindset. My perspective has less to do with politics and more with how I view my own life, and the lives of others, first of all.

Freedom is really important to me. I am not seeing government doing much good but I am not trying to abolish it. I don't know how it ought to be. I do know that it's not working very well these days.

And I don't see why this is inappropriate; as I wrote elsewhere, should Democrats not be thinking about what freedom really means?

Forget Libertarians, forget about politicians altogether. If we were able to start fresh.. ok I can at least imagine.. how best could government serve to preserve the life liberty and happiness of people?

Is it too much to ask, that people think about this?

[Naturyl]

17. No, not "F off and get lost."

I see no reason to tell you that. But it is a way of telling you I don't care for what you're promoting here, and I don't think it belongs in this community. There's no particular reason you should care that I feel this way, unless you're open to the idea that right-wing economic views might not be enthusiatically welcomed on a Democratic message board.

You ask us to forget about politics and libertarianism after sending us to view an intensely political and intensely libertarian presentation. I don't think that is fair or reasonable of you, and I don't think it is intellectually honest. The presentation has obvious political content and it comes from a very specific right-wing point of view. It's not too much to ask that people think about this, but here at DU, what people are likely to think is that it is a dangerous load of rubbish.

[Voice for Peace]

19. I ask you to consider that you are misunderstanding where I'm coming from.

"But it is a way of telling you I don't care for what you're promoting here, and I don't think it belongs in this community."

I'm not promoting anything except that people think for themselves, and consider what freedom really is. If that doesn't belong in this community, it's kind of scary.

Your opinion, and maybe others', is that this is coming from an extreme right-wing pov. That isn't my perception of it at all; we both view it subjectively, not necessarily accurately. Can you consider that as a possibility? We are quick to find the misconceptions and flaws in everyone else's thinking, but less quick to examine our own.

Since I have close friends who are libertarian or libertarian-leaning, I know that they're not right wing anti government anarchists or extremists. Probably some are. There are some insane Democrats too, for sure.


"There's no particular reason you should care that I feel this way,"
Well I do care. And the reason I care is below.

[Naturyl]

21. Okay, now you are patronizing me.

I know right-wing libertarian talking points when I see them, and these were them. If you're looking at it from any other viewpoint, then you are the one who has a serious misperception. That site does not hide what it is about. What part of "Celebrating the Genius of Ayn Rand" are you having trouble understanding?

It doesn't matter what your intentions are, because all we have in that regard is your word. What matters is the substance being presented for consideration, and that substance is far-right libertarianism. That it is coming from a right-wing point of view is not an "opinion," it is an absolute fact. All one has to do is view the presentation and read the website to see it stated in their own words.

You're now condescending to me under the transparent guise of a benevolent open-mindedness, and what's more, I'm no longer convinced you are sincere.

[Voice for Peace]

22. ok jeez you win.

[Naturyl]

24. Thank you kind sir

And please never post anything like this again or I shall be forced to issue further pwnings. :)

[Voice for Peace]

25. ok. but

I have absolutely nothing to do with Ayn Rand.
I am promoting nobody and nothing.
Not condescending to anybody.
I actually do have a benevolent open mind.
& I am sad for the huge misunderstanding here.

[Katherine Brengle]

27. You lost me at Property.

Sorry, but for too many people, property is not gained by the fruits of their labor, but by the fruits of the labor of others who are not duly compensated.

Libertarian bullshit.

[Voice for Peace]

28. I agree except

for the Libertarian bullshit part.
I don't think it's libertarians who are doing that stuff.

But how greed and corruption and such things would be handled by a libertarian government I really have no idea,
tha'ts always been one of my problems with taking it seriously politically.

Nevertheless I'm amazed how much people hate libertarians without really understanding the underlying philosophy.

Ironically I've seen on the libertarian website Antiwar.com positive coverage of Kucinich.

[Katherine Brengle]

29. I didn't say libertarians were "doing that stuff" --

it's libertarians who believe those ideals from your animation - and those ideals are flawed.

If we were starting from a completely utopian paradise in which all humans were of equal value and treated as such, perhaps it would work, but we're not.