Teaching of evolution not going down easy in Florida.

[madfloridian]

Today a member of the committee which worked on the new standards wrote a letter to the editor defending the decision. It is amazing to me how we are now having to mount a defense of science.

Here is Jonathan Smith's letter this week:

New Sunshine State Standards Reflect Good Science, Citizen Input

Two years ago, a group of concerned educators, teachers and parents were united in a common cause, to defend and promote good science especially in the school classroom. Recently the fruition of this work was realized when the Department of Education released the proposed new Sunshine State Standards. This organization, the Florida Citizens for Science, is honored that several of its members served on both the framing and writing committees that implemented this much needed overhaul.

The rationale behind these new standards is to provide the motivation of students toward understanding the key ideas of science through experimentation, investigation and reason.

....."It has been argued by some that intelligent design or creationism deserves a place in the school science classroom to offer an "alternative theory" or to illustrate a controversial issue. When set against scientific criteria, ID does not posses the principles or explanations to be considered a viable scientific proposition, it cannot be classed as bad or even controversial science, it is not science at all and, as such, has no place in the science classroom.

It is imperative to remember that many religious believers firmly reject ID finding it possible to combine faith with a scientific view of the universe. Ultimately, our primary concern should be focused on providing a sound science education for the students of Florida.

Having to defend science seems so odd. Here is a comment made in the original article about this subject by Mr. Smith. It has angered many people in this community. How dare he, some think.

Jonathan Smith, a Lakeland resident and a representative of the National Center for Science Education, a nonprofit group critical of intelligent design, helped write the new standards.

"It (new standards) closed the door on any ambiguity" about evolution, Smith said. "There isn't both sides. There is only one side as far as science is concerned." That side is evolution, he said.

Announcing that evolution will be taught in Florida

It really was odd to read that it was actually the first time it was required to be taught separately in science classes.

For the first time, standards in science have been written that would require Florida public-school students be taught about evolution. The new standards released last week say that evolution will be taught beginning in the third grade. Current standards do not use the word evolution, preferring the term "biological changes over time".

Teaching evolution in Florida

There have been several other letters written by the religious community. We have heard comments locally about how destructive this will be as an issue.

Florida's plan to require evolution be taught in science class is being called "godless".

A couple of excerpts from two of the letters:

The downward spiral humanity is on is pathetically evolutionary, and is producing generations of godless adults.

It's certainly not true science. It is a lot of confusion along with
imagination and a wishful doctrine from confused people who cannot accept creationism.

I trust we have more competent leaders who will stop this nonsense being perpetrated on our students.

And this one.

...."students will be taught to disbelieve what their parents teach them at home. Jonathan Smith, one of the writers of the new teaching standards, said, "It (new standards) closed the door on ambiguity" about evolution. "There isn't both sides. There is only one side as far as science
is concerned."

Citizens have been told for years that teachings of God have no place in schools, and that such teaching should be left to parents and churches. We've given in to that position, but now Mr. Smith and his kind are promoting a totally godless belief.

Why should we (surveys show that most Americans believe in a Creator) pay for consultants, administrators and teachers in our schools to promote a belief that denies the existence of a Creator? Why pay for them to contend that what we believe and teach in our homes and churches is a lie?

An agent was here for a couple of hours from Tampa the other day. He has lived in several locations the last few years across Central Florida.

He was a teacher as well for several years, and he knew I was retired from teaching. He was new to Florida, and he was really surprised at the mindsets here about so many things. He was at a gathering of teachers he used to teach with recently, and they were telling him about the reactions to the state's decisions. The teachers are relieved, but overall the reactions by parents and students seem to be pretty much like the ones above.

It may vary in different areas of Florida, and I surely hope so.

[Glorfindel]

1. Sometimes I feel as though I've fallen down the rabbit hole

and entered Wonderland. I weep for humanity that seems, all over the world, to be determinedly marching BACKWARD to the past instead of forward into the future. How are such things even possible?

[madfloridian]

2. Good way to put it....marching backward. Yes, we are in many ways.

It is so upsetting.

[fenriswolf]

3. hehe i love it

"it has been argued by some" are some next door neighbors with "them"? right across the street from "those" and lets not forget the "whodunit" living in the trailor

why not say something like "the florida board of education" oh thats right the board of education probably doesnt support intelligent design.

[msongs]

4. that mob still thinks slavery is a great idea nt

[Rincewind]

5. Possibly

Maybe evolution has completely skipped Florida, or at least it's politicians.

[orleans]

6. (i have a headache) n/t

[SparkyMac]

7. My experience is that people in FL respect science just as much ..

.. as the people in the Colder States. But they simply refuse to bow down and worship every theory that the True Believers and High Priests of Scientism profess.

[onethatcares]

8. but if it isn't taught to in the FCAT

it ain't going nowhere. The real god here is the developers money, religion and science don't have a thing to do with it.

[immoderate]

9. No bowing required in science. If you don't like a theory,

All you have to do is disprove it. Furthermore, there is no issue of belief. I tell my students that they can believe anything they like. You should recognize the difference between education and indoctrination.

I have been reviewing the Florida Science Standards, and as proposed, they are excellent. If you have some greater knowledge from say, a revelation, all you have to do is demonstrate it, and it becomes part of the theory. Go for it!

--IMM

[madfloridian]

11. Whoa! Bowing to True Believers and High Priests of Scientism??

Way to phrase it to show your scorn for science. :rofl:

[TZ]

12. Ah yes the science as religion group chimes in again

I suppose I worship the god called bacteria since you can SEE evolution in action with evolving drug resistance.
IMO its the relgious fundamentalists who like to claim the scientific method is a "religion" because they don't understand the difference between EVIDENCE and FAITH. Believing words written in 2000 year old book...thats faith. Describing accurately the natural world around us through empirical testing/the scientific method (and yes evolution is empircally proven) thats SCIENCE.

[Duffer29]

52. sorry turtle

evolution has not been empircally (sic) proven.
it's a theory and by darwin's own admission, a flawed one.
the fossil record doesn't exist to support it. darwin's statement, not mine.
darwin could explain how finches evolved into different types of finch's to adapt to their environment,
but not how finch's came to be.
it takes the same "leap of faith" to believe in evolution as it does to believe in ID

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

13. Who let the cage open? -nt

[EstimatedProphet]

14. Explain your views on Scientism, please

I'd love to hear this

[Hissyspit]

16. Nonsense. As someone who resides in one of the Warmer States, I can assure you

there is plenty of ignorance, pressure to suppress truth, and organized disingenuity here. And the wording of your post is evidence of that. You'll find ignorance everywhere other places - Kansas, for instance - but to deny it is a powerful destructive force in the Bible Belt, especially with the argument you make, is to misrepresent reality to yet another generation of Americans.

[SparkyMac]

21. Evolution is bunkum

I'm not saying you won't find ignorance in FL, as in the other 49 states.

I simply feel that being opposed to the stupidity called "evolution" doesn't mean you are ignorant.

How did man get on Earth ? I have no idea. But I have little faith in either the story told in genesis or the one told by Darwin. And however man rose to prominence on Earth was not by way of Charlie the Chimp.

[Tesha]

22. Obviously, we arrived on the back of a turtle.

And it's turtles all the way down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down

Tesha

[SparkyMac]

26. There are other alternatives ..

Turtles all the way down sounds as logical as tadpoles giving birth to a great-grandchild who looks like Nicole Kidman.

Actually I think the truth lies closer to Chariots of the Gods than to Darwin's Beagle.

On the other hand, I could argue that the human race is not a product of the ascent of man (evolution) so much as to his descent (devolution) from the higher forms. Maybe the monkey is the final evolved form and is descended from man. At least my days on this planet and my observations of the U.S. Congress seem to indicate this to be a worthwhile theory.

[moggie]

27. So do the science

Don't get hung up on Darwin: although he did great work, today's understanding of evolution is based on 150 years of research since his day, particularly since the development of the "modern synthesis". You, on the other hand, have a couple of speculative ideas. Do the research, provide solid scientific evidence on a par with what's been amassed for evolution, and then your ideas can be taken seriously. Though somehow I doubt that'll ever happen...

[SparkyMac]

36. But I don't want to prove anything ...

And therein lies the difference between me and a high priest of Scientism. Namely - I'm not trying to sell anything.

England, eh ? Give my love to Brize Norton. My home during two of the happiest years of my childhood.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

37. Well, you proved something about the people of Georgia.

Thanks for your contribution.

[RebelOne]

55. Please do not lump all us Georgians in his class.

[Basileus Basileon]

45. Nope. Scientists disprove things, not prove things.

Often they disprove the negative hypothesis, but that's not quite the same thing.

[Basileus Basileon]

31. You could argue that, but you'd be arguing against the fossil record.

And FYI, the monkey and the man are both evolved forms from a common ancestor.

[Ediacara]

43. Are you familair with "strawman" and "false dilema"?

Because you're doing it all over the place...

[varkam]

39. YES!

:rofl:

[Beelzebud]

29. We understand evolution better than gravity. Is gravity bunkum too, wise one?

[Basileus Basileon]

30. You have just completely, utterly failed.

G'by.

[moggie]

44. !

[LanternWaste]

34. And your counter-evidence of this is...?

What are the particulars with evolution that you consider "bunkum" and "stupidity", and what led you to that belief?


"And however man rose to prominence on Earth was not by way of Charlie the Chimp"

And your counter-evidence of this is...?

[karlrschneider]

40. You are an amusing little turd.

...

[Ediacara]

42. So the fact that evolution has been observed won't convince you?

What are you going to believe? SparkyMac's pronouncements or the lying eyes of thousands of people?

:eyes:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

47. Who the hell do you think you're fooling?

"little faith in genesis," my ass.

The only way you have "little faith in genesis" is if you think the band formerly led by Phil Collins sucks.

[EstimatedProphet]

56. Really, all you are saying is that you don't understand Evolution

The principle of Evolution is a fact. That's it. Period. Saying you don't believe in Evolution is like saying you don't believe in the Inverse Square Law of light radiation, or that you don't believe in the Central Limit Theorem. If you know what they are, you know that they're facts, and making fun of them makes you look stupid.

[Zhade]

49. Heck, you find vast ignorance in the very post you replied to!

It must be embarassing to be as fucking stupid as that guy!

[The Wizard]

23. Can you cite an example

of science teachers demanding to be heard in theology classes?
"But they simply refuse to bow down and worship every theory that the True Believers and High Priests of Scientism profess." Please provide names of the High Priests of Scientism (sic).

[hatrack]

24. Enjoy your stay!

And watch out for the billy goats!

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Beelzebud]

28. ROFL. High Priests of Scientism? You have got to be joking, right?

Please tell me there aren't people this stupid living in 2007.

[Basileus Basileon]

32. The "Science is a Religion" argument is absolutely

ignorant.

[varkam]

38. High Priests of Scientism?

Really?

:rofl:

[Zhade]

48. What a fucking stupid comment.

Evolution has been proven. Don't like it? Too fucking bad.

[riverdeep]

10. A controversial theory of my own.

As I go along, I become less and less convinced that democracy, as it's currently practiced, is a good idea. In the past, it was elders who decided the direction a tribe was going to take. Everyone wasn't equal, in that sense. Today, the votes of these people who have a slim grip on reality are weighed equally with those who are far more aware, to the detriment of the entire group. I imagine a meritocracy, open to anyone who could demonstrate critical thinking, that decides the fate of society.

I'm aware this proposal can be open to abuse as well.

[madfloridian]

15. Well, again you run into the problem....who gets to decide.

Who sets the criteria, who decides who the deciders will be?

:shrug:

[ima_sinnic]

19. I have long believed that -- "rule by majority" sucks when the majority

just isn't very bright.

[riverdeep]

20. Views of Kennedy and Jefferson-

"Liberty without learning is always in peril; learning without liberty is always in vain." -JFK

"I know, (there is) no safe depositary of the ultimate powers of society, but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power." -Jefferson

Is this hopelessly idealistic? It definitely should be the goal, but has it worked? The populace, it seems to me, can be led by the nose to whatever mischief the powers wish, and will actually cheer while doing so.

[BreweryYardRat]

53. So what do we do with all the empty-skulled fuckwits?

I can't think of a method to keep them from influencing society that couldn't be abused.

[madfloridian]

17. Found this about one of the hearings by the committee...laugh, cry, not sure.

Monkey business:Evolution' remains a dirty word

Thomas warned that all of the hard work that went into the standards would be lost in the battle over evolution. “I don't know that the benefit is there,” he said, making sure to add at the end that, when he learned about it, “it was Darwin's theory of evolution.”

Others didn't have to be so careful to dance around the real issue.
One parent wondered why schools can't consider “an intelligent influence,” branded evolution “a tool of atheists” and spoke of the “assumption of billions of years of history.” Uh-oh, I thought, we've got a young-Earth creationist here who thinks the world is just 6,000 years old.

A grandmother who had five kids go through public schools said she didn't see evolution in the similarities of life forms. (Just as Picasso paintings are recognized as being from the same artist, so are worms and humans perhaps?) She hinted at “something that I call the creator” before finally surrendering and calling it “our heavenly father.”

..."In 1925, Tennessee passed the Butler Act, barring the teaching of “any theory that denies the story of the Divine Creation of man as taught in the Bible.” That spawned a splendid trial, a fine play and movie (“Inherit the Wind”) and, eventually, a Supreme Court ruling that found such bans to be an unconstitutional establishment of religion".

..."I got a hint Wednesday night, when another parent warned against teaching a subject when “there is theory involved.” “You have disagreement among the scientists,” he said. “Where there is sufficient controversy, it ought to be left out.” Teach it in college, instead, he suggested."

eeek

[DetlefK]

18. If you just switch a word...

original quote:
It's certainly not true science. It is a lot of confusion along with
imagination and a wishful doctrine from confused people who cannot accept creationism.

And it can easily be changed to:
It's certainly not true science. It is a lot of confusion along with
imagination and a wishful doctrine from confused people who cannot accept the scientific method.


And honestly: Let's say, you finish school with an A in biology, because you know everything about the bible. Of what use is this in any other country on this planet? (Let me guess, everybody but the true believers is just wrong.)

[Swamp Rat]

33. Flat Earth Society

[Sam Ervin jret]

35. You pay them to TEACH SCIENCE let them TEACH SCIENCE.

I see this as adults who have either so little understanding of what faith actually is or so little faith itself they feel any challenge to the ideas they are required to accept on this faith as more than they can take.

Their action does a great dis-service to both faith and science education. The students of this country will need plenty of both if they are to see their way through the crisis developed through the ignorance of past generations.

[litlady]

41. I need to move!

Didn't know this was an issue in Florida, though I have certainly heard about it in plenty of states.

Grew up in Calif.; learned evolution in biology class as well as the idea that Darwin and others learned to doubt Creationism because of evidence of evolution.

[madfloridian]

46. Central Florida School Board member says don't teach evolution alone.

Guess every school board has them.

School Official Opposes Evolution Standards Plan

LAKELAND | A Polk County School Board member said Monday she wants the district to consider opposing proposed new science standards for Florida schools that would include specific mention of evolution for the first time.

The proposed standards intended to strengthen science education in Florida have widespread backing from the scientific community and have generated limited opposition statewide.

However, Polk board member Kay Fields objects to the portion of the standards that includes evolution, and she said she will talk with Superintendent Gail McKinzie this week about possible action the district can take.

"There needs to be intelligent design as well," Fields said. "You need to show both sides."

Fields said she's only received one phone call from a parent opposed to the new standards. The mother of two children who attend Polk schools told Fields she favored teaching intelligent design.

So it is good she has only received one phone call opposing it...gives me hope.

So why did she think she should give her personal opinion if she was not receiving feedback?

[frogmarch]

50. Aw, c'mon, SparkyMac

[riverdeep]

51. Nova had an excellent two hour program on ID in the classroom tonight.

It focused on the takeover of the school board in Dover, PA by religious types. They wanted the board to buy certain ID books alongside standard biology texts, much to the shocked teachers' surprise. The board voted it down, so they requested the teachers read a statement that evolution is just a theory and ID materials are available to investigate. The teachers refused. So, an assistant principal or someone, I can't recall who, walked into the classrooms and read the statement anyway. Parents sued, with the ACLU involved, and it became a huge deal.

I gotta say, I really give it up for that judge. He was a Republican appointed by Bush, in a fundie area, but he did the right thing. It was highly relevant to what's going on in Fla and elsewhere.

You can see the full program at this link on Nov 16th, or check your PBS station. It does have a preview you can watch now.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/program.html

[BreweryYardRat]

54. Speaking as a Florida native...

Nice to see someone standing up to the overwhelming tide of stupidity in my state.