The de facto answer to right-wingers that excuse water-boarding...

[truebrit71]

...is that they need to undergo it themselves first...

Until they KNOW what they are talking about they need to sit down and shut up...

[Beelzebud]

1. Even better: If it happens to our soldiers, is it still no big deal?

[Jim__]

3. Of course it is.

That's why Mukasey can't answer the question unless he knows the circumstances. If it happens to our soldiers, it's torture. If it happens to their soldiers, it's not. :sarcasm:

[mcctatas]

20. ahhh...

but they're not soldiers silly, they're "terruhists", and you forget the repubs have a different standard for judging behavior, it all relates to that born again crap...when one of thier guys gets caught, i don't know, just as a for instance; soliciting gay sex in a men's bathroom "he's not perfect, just forgiven", but Barney Frank is hell bound :shrug: double standards and hypocricy abound in bushworld!

[SteppingRazor]

2. I understand what you're saying, but...

I'd be wary about making any argument from the position that only those with personal knowledge have a valid opinion. I recall right-wingers telling antiwar protesters that they should shut up because they haven't been to war, so they can't have an opinion on it.

[truebrit71]

6. ...and I guarantee you that those wingnuts hadn't 'experienced' it either....

...and the point I'm making is that if they think it ISN'T torture then they should be willing to let themselves and their family members undergo the process to prove it...

Anyone with HALF a brain knows this is torture...the knuckle-draggers are the ones that should have to prove it ISN'T...

[SteppingRazor]

11. Totally understand what you're saying...

I just figured the point was worth making that one needn't have prior, personal experience of something to have a valid opinion on it. :hi:

[truebrit71]

12. Indeed.

.

[eFriendly]

4. My Answer: "Come on over to my house...

and let me waterboard you out in the garage and then we can discuss the merits of if it's torture or not after you've experienced it."

That made my brother shut his mouth real quick. And the look on his face was priceless when he saw my declining weight bench sitting in a large metal wash bin out in the garage. He hasn't been back over since.

[ProgressiveFool]

8. after you waterboarded them

they'd tell you exactly what you want to hear, i.e. that it is torture.

[spanone]

5. there is NO excuse, nada, zip, ziltch, zero

[Basileus Basileon]

7. I've got a friend who was waterboarded.

He's a Navy pilot. He was waterboarded as part of his training. He said it was extremely uncomfortable, and how if you didn't know what was really going on, you'd be scared out of your mind. But he doesn't think it's torture. He does think we shouldn't do it, because it's a waste of time (torture elicits too many bogus confessions.) And he's a Bush-bashing Democrat.

Now, I disagree with that assertion entirely. I would say "scared out of your mind" is enough to mean we shouldn't do it; if someone thinks they're drowning, that's torture in my eyes.

I get the cowardice that most people who excuse waterboarding are exhibiting. I really do, and it's frankly disgusting. But I know of one person who's been waterboarded who doesn't think it's torture.

[truebrit71]

9. He voluntarily got water-boarded correct? He KNEW that he wasn't going to die..

...he KNEW that no harm was going to come to him...

With all due respect to your friend, that is NOT the same mind-set of the people how undergo this treatment IN OUR NAMES right now....THEY have NO idea whether they are going to live or die...THEY have no such gaurantees that the session will end with them in one piece...

It is barbaric and sadistic and it is being done IN OUR NAMES RIGHT NOW....

It has to stop...

[Basileus Basileon]

10. Yeah, and that's why I disagree with his assertion.

It's not physical torture (though it is supposedly extraordinarily uncomfortable). It's mental torture--as he told me, he repeated to himself in his head (paraphrasing), "They just spent two million dollars teaching me to fly. They're not going to kill me here. My lungs are above my head. I can't possibly drown. They're going to let me breathe soon; otherwise I can't answer the questions they're screaming in my face."

Without that knowledge reassuring you, you undoubtedly would think that death was a possibility. And that's why I think it's torture.

[Poiuyt]

13. After reading this description of waterboarding, I can't believe anyone would not

think this is torture:

From longtime counterterrorism expert Malcolm Nance, a veteran of counterterrorism operations in Iraq

1. Waterboarding is a torture technique. Period. There is no way to gloss over it or sugarcoat it. It has no justification outside of its limited role as a training demonstrator. Our service members have to learn that the will to survive requires them accept and understand that they may be subjected to torture, but that America is better than its enemies and it is one’s duty to trust in your nation and God, endure the hardships and return home with honor.

2. Waterboarding is not a simulation. Unless you have been strapped down to the board, have endured the agonizing feeling of the water overpowering your gag reflex, and then feel your throat open and allow pint after pint of water to involuntarily fill your lungs, you will not know the meaning of the word.

Waterboarding is a controlled drowning that, in the American model, occurs under the watch of a doctor, a psychologist, an interrogator and a trained strap-in/strap-out team. It does not simulate drowning, as the lungs are actually filling with water. There is no way to simulate that. The victim is drowning. How much the victim is to drown depends on the desired result (in the form of answers to questions shouted into the victim’s face) and the obstinacy of the subject. A team doctor watches the quantity of water that is ingested and for the physiological signs which show when the drowning effect goes from painful psychological experience, to horrific suffocating punishment to the final death spiral.

Waterboarding is slow motion suffocation with enough time to contemplate the inevitability of black out and expiration –usually the person goes into hysterics on the board. For the uninitiated, it is horrifying to watch and if it goes wrong, it can lead straight to terminal hypoxia. When done right it is controlled death. Its lack of physical scarring allows the victim to recover and be threaten with its use again and again.

mpre -

http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/004617.php

[Basileus Basileon]

15. That is factually incorrect.

Water does not fill the lungs during waterboarding. The head is below the chest; drowning is physically impossible.

[Poiuyt]

18. So if I hang you by your ankles and dip you into a bucket of water head first, you won't drown?

I would think the act of inhalation would be enough to force water uphill and into your lungs.

[WinkyDink]

16. "scared out of your mind. But he doesn't think it's torture." DOES HE NOT HEAR HIMSELF??

What part of "scared out of your mind" does he NOT GET????

[Basileus Basileon]

17. Well, apparently he doesn't think

"real and apparently-valid fear for your life" is torture. I would disagree. Making someone believe they are slowly being murdered is torture.

[liberal N proud]

14. Invite them to test it out

[Swamp Rat]

19. They need to sit down and shut the fuck up.

Then go enlist in the Marines.