How many people have made a journey in their understanding of homosexuality?

[hedgehog]

I hate to use that word since to my ear it medicalizes a normal variation among humans. That's a measure of how far I've come. Growing up, I couldn't even comprehend the notion. After a while, I decided that if it was sinful, it wasn't my temptation and it wasn't my place to judge. Later I realized that we are all what we are, gay, bi or straight. It was an educational process that came about mainly because I met gays in my family, my friends and literature. (Never knock the power of a good story to reach and change someone.) My point is that ignorance is not the same as bigotry. An ignorant person can be taught, a bigot refuses to learn.

In a perfect world, people wouldn't need to be taught about homosexuality. We won't get any closer to a perfect world though, as long as we assume that no one who is anti-gay today can be taught better.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

1. i agree. there is a difference between ignorance and bigotry.

but there is also sometimes a resistance to learn things that you dont consider important.

[unpossibles]

4. exactly

I can forgive ignorance until the person refuses to ever consider any outside information. Willful ignorance is one of the most harmful things going on in America/the world right now - so many people are 'loud and proud' about being ignorant that it scares the hell out of me.

I know it takes time, but... come on.

[SteppingRazor]

2. I had a definite epiphany moment...

when I went from being pro-civil unions to pro-gay marriage.

There's just no way to justify civil unions without somehow making gay love "lesser" than straight love. When I got into a debate about it with a pro-gay marriage friend and was unable to ameliorate that part of the argument, I was forced to change my opinion.

I still can understand the argument of gay civil unions as a stepping stone to gay marriage -- the fights for women's rights and minority rights have been paved with such stepping stones -- but there's no way you can convince me that gays should be happy with civil unions as a finishing point on the road to equality.


As for the rest of it, the idea of homosexuality being sinful or something, despite 10 years of Catholic school, I never really thought that way. It's just never made logical sense to me.

[JuniperLea]

5. It never made sense to me either...

I've argued with Fundies on this point, and I left it at this:

If you agree that God is perfect, and that God made us all, then there is no sin in what God has made and God made homosexual human beings. His Son told us to love each other unconditionally, so if you are treating someone badly because of their sexuality, then you are treating Jesus badly.

Fundy heads spin and much sputtering ensues when this tact is taken:)

[SteppingRazor]

9. Hmm... Interesting, but if I was a fundie, I'd say...

I don't hate homosexuals, I hate homosexuality!
You can be gay, just don't act on it
People are also born as sociopaths, does that make them OK too?
And so on, and so on. They've got an answer for everything.

[JuniperLea]

19. You can hate whatever you care to

There's no law about hating. It's acting on hating that is against the law... man's law AND God's law. So, hate homosexuality all you want, but you better not treat a homosexual badly.

God loves GWBush, Saddam Hussein, Al Gore, Brittany Spears, V. Putin, me, you, gays, Jews, race car drivers, doctors, lawyers, the mentally ill, the homeless, murderers, rapists, sociopaths... He loves us all, unconditionally and without question. He is not happy when we go against his word, but he still loves us. He may not let all of us into Heaven, but he loves us.

You see, I was raised in a Fundy family... I was schooled... I got mad scripture skills:) I know how to hold a mirror to their hypocrisy.

[Bobbieo]

6. Many American Indian tribes accept homosexuals and refer to them -

as the "Two Spirit People" - being both male and female genders.

[JuniperLea]

8. That is beautiful, Bobbieo!

I'd heard that before... thanks for reminding me:)

[SteppingRazor]

11. I'd read that before.

It is a cool sentiment! :)


Of course, some Mesoamerican Indian tribes also practiced human sacrifice, so a Native American tribe giving a certain practice its approval doesn't necessarily make it cool by me. ;)
Of course, in this case, it does work out.

[Saphire]

36. My epiphany....when I was 19.

My older sister came out to me. "Do you still love me?" she asked. My answer.."How could I not love you?". I learned something that day that has affected how I live my life. Sexuality does not even enter the picture when deciding whether or not I like(love)someone.

BTW...her and my "sister-in-law" are going on 30 years now. :)

[goodgd_yall]

45. Catholic too

I never bought that homosexuality was a sin either for the very same reason---it didn't make sense. If sex between people of the opposite sex was "good," how could it be bad just because it was between two people of the same sex?

I DID in my youth, though, think it was not the preferred way to be, that somehow it meant there was something wrong. This at the same time I was curious about it and having strong feelings toward persons of the same sex as well. I also backed pro-gay positions. I didn't actually realize I was a lesbian until my late 20s. I had never wanted to have sex with men before that, but I thought I was asexual---not realizing I had more choices. That sounds really odd, but this was back in the late 70s and gayness was still judged by most people to be sinful, perverted, an object of ridicule and hate. So my epiphany really was when I recognized I was gay although I thought a lot up to that time to understand homosexuality---probably my way of discerning if I was gay. I had to think of it as something other people were before I could make the next big leap.

[JuniperLea]

3. My education came from not knowing someone was gay

And befriending that person in jr. high. By the time I found out she was gay, I knew her very well. She didn't cease being a lovely person because I learned something new about her. Her sexuality meant nothing to our relationship.

I worked for a gay male couple for many, many years, and became great friends with them. The only difference between them and any straight couple is that they both had a penis. They had the same arguments, the same tender moments, the same conversations, the same hopes and fears.

Unless you plan on having sex with someone, their sexuality has zero to do with anything.

[TahitiNut]

7. As I recall, it was in growing up from being 13 years old to being 22 years old.

I generally don't think "personal growth" should be all that remarkable for someone between those ages, so I rarely think about it. :shrug:

[NNN0LHI]

10. I don't think I still have a very good understanding of it

I try too. I read and ask questions but, I don't know, its like it doesn't compute or something. I will keep trying though.

I never felt I was bigoted toward any gay people though. I don't feel superior to them or anyone else.

Don

[peacetalksforall]

12. It takes some common sense. Homosexuality has been around

since before Christian heirarchial religion, we don't know everything about our species yet, and who are we to judge? Who are we to know that God doesn't want something? For me, since the Bible seems to be at the core of a lot of ugly interpretations that end with war, death, torture, maiming, abuse, and bigotry, I don't put anything by the Bible, anymore. I'll wait for a time of more hopeful humanistic interpretations. For now, I just settle for the Beatitudes, golden rules, and push for human rights, legal rights, and hood rights as in brotherhood, sisterhood, childhood, neighborhood in peace and in love.

[hedgehog]

13. Kind of related to the original post, but how many of us are walking a tight rope

between gay family members and family members who were taught that being gay is sick and/or wrong and/or a choice? We have that situation in my family. Some members know and don't care, some members know and are caught between their love for the person and what they've been taught all their lives and some members we just don't tell because we don't know what would happen. I really think there is hope for the members that are caught in the middle. I think quiet persistence will wear them down to the point that they can discard their preconceptions. It's somewhat akin to having someone tell you they'd never have a dog because dogs are dirty and that's what they believe and act upon until the rainy cold day someone leaves a little wet puppy with huge brown eyes on their door step.

[FreeState]

31. Good point

I'm from a LDS family. Im gay and the rest of the family is very active in church - I have 7 brothers and sister and parents that have never divorced.

I have found that the older siblings have a harder time with it than my younger sisters. My younger sisters all have gay friends. My older brothers and sisters all have families and little time for friends outside of Church. They have all had different life experiences and those experiences outweigh anything the church say - whether the church sees that at all is another issue.

My parents, while we do not talk about it, I feel my father does better with it than my mom. But, they are all supportive of me as a person and my partner. He is always welcome to every family event and my parents even put us in the same bed when we visit.

[Oeditpus Rex]

14. A few DUers, notably lionesspriyanka,

have taught me much. I've never been anti-gay, but there was a time not so long ago when I thought that was enough — that it was okay to harbor certain misconceptions as long as I supported the GLBTQ cause. From Pri and others, I've come to understand that it isn't okay — that, though ignorance and bigotry may not be the same, their results can be.

[hedgehog]

15. For me, it's a question of how you respond to other people's failings.

Do you condemn someone for all time because of where they are at the minute, or do you keep working on them?

[Oeditpus Rex]

18. I'm sorry, I don't understand your question

[hedgehog]

22. It's wrong for people to be anti-gay. It's enraging. I have a gay daughter,

so I am concerned. I also have two mixed race nieces who look black. I've been there when someone who doesn't know me well makes an anti-gay or anti-black slur. Sometimes I've had to be quiet for the sake of a job or just to keep from ruining someone else's celebration. I ran into this at a 35 year high school reunion. One woman there had been a racist in high school and she still is a racist today. I had a choice of calling her on it and ruining the reunion for everyone there or just letting it pass. I let it pass, and noticed that when she opened her mouth, people tended to drift away.


Some people see this as a black-or-white situation; you're either with us or against us. I see a lot of gray here, especially because I think a lot of people have the potential to change if they are approached properly. What I do believe firmly is that no progress will be made if we write off those who do not agree with us.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

52. thanks oeditpus. atleast i am good for something.

:hi:

[cali]

16. Do you know, that's a funny thing for me to think about.

I don't remember a time when I thought there was anything abnormal about gays and lesbians. It always seemed just part of the natural order to me. I think the first time I ever thought about it was when I was 12 or 13 and found a book- "The Well of Loneliness" in my parent's library. And my parents had close friends who were gay who spent a week every summer with us. I guess I was lucky.

[NNN0LHI]

26. Two of my very conservative parents best friends were gay too

They used to go to Hawaii with the couple every year together. I could tell they had a great time and enjoyed each others company. They really looked forward to that yearly trip.

And this was back in the 60's.

Don

[goodgd_yall]

47. I have a friend that also grew up "lucky" like you

(She was my first lover, but dated men before I met her.) I thought it amazing that she was so accepting all her life and it was never a big deal. She had gay friends in high school (this was in the 70s). And she was Catholic, but society and her environment didn't affect her total acceptance of the LGBT community.

[The Straight Story]

17. I grew up knowing someone who was gay, and my best friend since I was 13 is gay

and I am 42 now.

A friend of my brother was gay as well, and out of the closet before it was the thing to do (in the late 70's, in Ohio).

While jokes abounded at the time (games like, 'Smear the Queer' as an example) no one I knew hated anyone who was gay or that we suspected were gay (it was not a good time back then to let it be known you were gay....).

We all just wanted to have fun and play those new video games :)

My best friend eventually came out of the closet, to open arms from me and my family (my X wife, a fundie, even taught him how to drive and had he and his lover over many times for cook outs).

Most the fundies and rw'ers (not all were fundies, most did not even go to church) I knew growing up didn't care what you were, their main beef was more sex stuff being taught in school - when it should be something you talk about at home. School was for the three R's.

Sad thing to me - when my best friend told me he thought I would not like him anymore because I was a Christian, I thought he knew me better than that. Told him I could care less and that I loved him no matter what.

Funny thing is - he is a conservative and never votes for dems, only independents and republicans :)

[Bucky]

20. Not me. I'm a complete hypocrite.

I didn't think gay marriage was a worthwhile cause for Democrats to fight for until my daughter came out the closet.

[hedgehog]

23. But what was the form of your conversion?

Was it, my daughter, right or wrong?

or was it


Hey, if my daughter is gay, and that's all that gay means, then what's all the fuss about gay?

[Bucky]

33. No. Always been pro-gay rights. I just didn't want to lose an election over the marriage thing.

When my kid came out, it occurred to me that I'm playing politics with people's lives.

[Missy Vixen]

21. I'm a former fundy, and yes, my thoughts have changed

When I was younger and still in the church, it was a sin. When I got older and left the church, the patience and kindness of those I formerly worked with and knew socially went a long way to showing me that we're all the same. Science proves that we're born with our sexual orientation. As I said, those around me were patient and kind with what I'm sure were my ill-informed questions, and I am grateful for them.

My life is richer because of the people in it. I hope I add to their lives, too.
Julie

[CoffeeCat]

24. I would say that I used to be a bigot...

...because I was raised by homophobic, racist, rich, white, arch-conservative
parents.

Our house was filled with gay and racial slurs. It would have been considered
trashy to consort with minorities or gays. I remember my sister was talking
with an African American out at the mall. My father saw her, grabbed her and
escorted her home. Boy, did she get a talking to.

I remember my father guffawing, "It was Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!". Oh,
I thought it was all so funny. I didn't know any other way. I didn't even
know that my family was bigoted or that our views were intolerant. I didn't know
it was wrong.

Then, I left home for college. Don't get me started about how diverse and cool
Iowa City, Iowa is. Gay people, straight people, Jewish people, rich people,
poor people, people with blue hair, people from Chicago--you get the drift. I
began to see that the world was bigger--and much more exciting and diverse than
the box into which my father had placed us.

I began therapy for horrendous childhood abuse. In addition to being Fundie nutjobs,
my parents were also criminal, serial child abusers. As I began to shed the pain, I
also shed my father's paradigms. I felt the world open up. I felt lighter.

It's been a long, challenging slog. It's been liberating, but it's also been
treacherous. Letting go of the notion that I grew up in a perfect family with
perfect parents--was painful. Ultimately, I had to face the fact that these people
had no regard for my humanity and that I had always been alone. Being an adopted
child, admitting this meant admitting that I had to face that I really had no one.
As I shed the denial and healed, I found myself more open to the universe and the
possibilities of myself--and of others.

I no longer parroted my family's homophobic, racist views--I created my own view
of the universe. The more healthy I became--the more I felt understanding and
compassion for this world and for others--that means everyone.

I'm a project in the making. I always feel as if I was shattered as a child,
and that I'm constantly picking up new pieces and putting them in place. In my
case, I don't think the process ever ends.

I do know that the more sick and entrenched in dysfunction and denial I was--the more
bigoted and homophobic I was. A healthy, healed person is not a homophobic or racist person.

I feel (and so does my therapist) that people in recovery--who have had to take
a long, painful, rocky journey of self discovery--have a great deal in common
with homosexuals. I supposed we can all relate to the painful journey that comes
with becoming truly "real" and paying value to the person that you were born to become--
in spite of what's been drilled into you by your family, society and those who
enable dysfunction and denial.

That's my story.

[bicentennial_baby]

38. ...

:hug: Thank you so much for sharing that. :hug:

[goodgd_yall]

48. Congratulations for seeking recovery

"I do know that the more sick and entrenched in dysfunction and denial I was--the more
bigoted and homophobic I was. A healthy, healed person is not a homophobic or racist person."

For myself, it was after starting therapy that I was able to imagine there might be another option to heterosexuality (which I didn't have any attraction to up to then---but I thought that meant I was asexual). I just couldn't see that choice. I guess I had a lot of fear to let go of and once I wasn't afraid, I could look at myself honestly and that's when the self-discovery took place.

THank you for sharing your story, TwoSparkles.

[sandnsea]

25. I've always believed people are who they are

I can' ever remember a time when I believed gays were sinners or women weren't equal or racial stereotypes or any other ridiculous notion. It doesn't mean that I don't realize just how many people on the planet do have prejudices and biases and even hatred. If we rounded them all up and told them to go to the Republicans, we'd never win an election again.

[DeSwiss]

27. Not much of a journey for me.....

....since I have gay family members and I grew up in the church where gay people were everywhere I looked. I've always accepted gay people, although its only been in the past few years that I've gotten loud about it. Which I believe more hets need to do as well, because the hate has gotten louder too. And I believe that things will never change until we do. So I won't shut up about it now either, not until I'm laid out on the funeral pyre. But I never had a problem with accepting that a gay person's love for someone of the same-sex was any different from what I and others have experienced. Its that many in society have grown up with things being this way, and people in general fear and resist changes in the paradigm. But love recognizes no color, no nationality, no religion -- nor a person's gender. And love requires no qualifications nor approvals from anyone. But then, that same society has always seen me as different as well, since I'm black.

Whenever I've encountered this bigotry in the past, particularly among the so-called Christians, I already had my answer for them. It comes from their own book. I seldom use it anymore because those who know me, also know that its better not to argue with me on this issue. I have no truck for homophobes nor haters of any kind. So most homophobic people I won't even bother to talk to about this issue because as someone recently said: "with some people their bigotry is all that defines who they are." So I won't waste the time.

But whatever brand name Christian one may say that they are, with the advent of the coming of Jesus, there is no longer any biblical justification for Christians hating nor discriminating against anyone. According to the words of their Savior, in the "fulfilling of the law and the prophecies" -- Jesus prohibits it in any form. And it is for these reasons, that also believe that if any so-called Christian is not doing what the verses below say, then they aren't really a Christian:

Matthew 7:1-2
"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

Matthew 22: 34-40
"But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

For me, these words are clear and unambiguous. Either a Christian does this, or they are simply using their religion in order to justify their own hate and bigotry. And maybe their actions and beliefs are an oblique form of self-hatred. Which is quite often the case. And if they aren't a Christian, then the flag of their bigotry just flies under another name. IMHO

DeSwiss

[Annces]

28. I think I have about the same understanding of it as I always have

At some point I learned homosexuals were a suppressed group by society, and that was all I needed to know. We should all have equal treatment.

[pnwmom]

29. I would think almost anyone above the age of 40.

When I was growing up, people could get arrested for it (even in their own bedrooms). The "enlightened" view was that it shouldn't be a crime -- it was a mental illness. It wasn't until the emergence of AIDS that the topic of gay people came out of the closet.

[goodgd_yall]

49. I'm thinking age makes a difference too

Some people posting did not have to go through an epiphany. I don't know if they are young, but I do notice younger people (30's and younger) are very accepting.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

30. It was gradual

I grew up in a pretty straight-laced environment in the 1950s and 1960s, and I was in junior high school before I first heard that there were such people as "queers." There was little in the media about it, certainly nothing on television except the occasional "fruity" comic character.

When I was about 20, a resident of my college dorm came out as a lesbian. Everyone found this fairly mind-boggling and disturbing, and the young woman left the school and transferred to the University of Minnesota.

When I was in graduate school in the 1970s, I met my first large numbers of out GLBT people at church, of all places. I didn't realize that they were gay until there was a coming out day on campus, and suddenly, about half a dozen people I knew showed up at services wearing pink triangles. Some of them were very kind to me at times when I needed kindness.

As I spent a lot of time in environments with a higher than usual percentage of GLBT people (academia, the performing arts, and the Episcopal Church), I began to notice that same-sex relationships look just like heterosexual relationships emotionally. There's the giddy stage of first falling in love, the "boring old married couple" stage, the hate-your-guts break-up stage, and the grief of de facto widowhood.

One of the defining moments occurred while I was renting part of a house from a lesbian couple, shortly after I left academia.

One of my former academic colleagues came to visit, and after walking through the living room, where my landladies were watching TV, she whispered, "Are your housemates lesbians?"

"Yes," I replied. "How did you know?"

She gave me a funny look and pointed at the living room couch, where my housemates were cuddling as they watched TV.

Honestly, I had become so accustomed to the sight that it didn't even occur to me that a visitor might be startled.

[SarahB]

32. I've never had to make a "journey" regarding my beliefs.

I grew up (I'm 35) in a very tolerant family and my parents had gay and lesbian friends. It was a nonissue for me. My only journey has been my own in terms of my own feelings and relationships.

[IndianaJones]

34. what if I loose myself, sense I know where I'm going? nt

[Solomon]

35. Great thread. I went through a progression as well.

I can't remember how old I was when I first became aware of homosexuality. Probably much older than most. I was definately a teenager. It was presented to me as something very sinful, strange, offensive. I'm hetero, so I couldn't understand it how a person of the same sex could feel that way about each other.

The first time it impacted me, I discovered that my best friend for years in school, was gay. Unfortunately I learned that at a camp in Maine where another older classmate, tried to rape me. My friend wouldn't help him physically so I fought my way out of it. The experience did not cause me to be homophobic, I didn't mind gay people as long as they weren't bothering me, and of course, they never did.

What finally made me understand for good was when I discovered that some animals are homosexual too.
That clinched it for me. Never had a doubt after that. I no longer felt that it was sinful, strange or offensive, but natural. Same as me.

[WinkyDink]

37. I try to view people in ways other than a narrowly-focused sexual one.

Except for J.D. Fortune. ;)

[distantearlywarning]

39. I don't think I ever thought gays were bad.

I don't remember thinking much about it at all until I was about 15 or so. I had a friend who everyone knew was gay. It wasn't a big deal to me. He was just my friend and that was part of who he was.

[bicentennial_baby]

40. Not really, no...

My best friend when I was 5 had 2 mommies. Nobody ever told me that they were different from my mom and dad (which they weren't,of course). Then in grammar school, a few other friends with 2 moms or dads, etc, etc. I just grew up with it, didn't even know about homophobia until I became cognizant of AIDS in the late 80s (I was born in 76) and the media coverage. At some point realized that I was Bi. Founding member of the GSA at my boarding school in 1992. I feel lucky. :)

[Arkansas Granny]

41. I had a very sheltered childhood. I had heard the term homosexual

in high school, but it didn't really sink in as to what happened in a homosexual relationship until much later. It was something that was snickered at, but certainly not discussed with "nice" girls. I was over 25 years old when I first met an openly gay person through a mutual friend. After the initial discomfort passed my curiosity got the better of me and I was able to really talk to this person (who was remarkably kind and patient and tolerant of my ignorance). This experience really opened my eyes and made me more aware of the damage we do to other people and to ourselves when we are hindered by bigotry against any group of people just because they are "different" from what is considered to be societal norms.

[DearAbby]

42. I was never taught

to hate them, I was raised in a religion free home. It was never a topic. And when I learned my sister was a lesbian, it just seemed natural. I could never hate my sister, for how she was born being. I know firsthand being gay isn't a learned behavior. It isn't a choice. I don't remember given that choice. I am straight, I just am.

You're wise. An ignorant person can be taught, a bigot refuses to learn.

[mondo joe]

43. My mother-in-law did, before she died. She had a VERY hard time accepting her 2 gay kids,

and I think you could fairly say had something of a breakdown over it.

She then reached a point of just not wanting family friends to know.

She later reached a point of really enjoying her kids and their partners.

She was never going to be in PFLAG or anything, but she made real progress.

[Tatiana]

44. I don't know if I would call it a journey.

I guess the point was really driven home to me with DOMA. What is the big deal with gay marriage? How is it going to hurt heterosexual marriages? (In my experience, most gay partnerships last longer than heterosexual ones.)

When I looked at things from a religious perspective, I thought "fornication is a sin." Sex outside of marriage is a sin. So, if we want to stop gays from sinning, then let them get married. Marriage would solve the problem (the "sin" factor, so to speak). Evangelicals should be the first ones in support of gay marriage.

I've never believed the attraction of a person to their same sex was something wrong. We find "gayness" throughout nature, and I think if we are all G-d's creation, then G-d "didn't create no junk" (as Tammy Faye would put it).

[AlCzervik]

46. i count myself lucky, growing up my parents always had gay friends so gay

people have always been a part of my life, when i was in high school i had gay friends and still have gay friends now.

[Toasterlad]

50. Not to Get Trippy, But EVERYONE "Makes a Journey"

We're born empty-headed, and as we go through life, we learn things. Some things are taught to us by others, and some things we learn on our own. And there's no one who doesn't at some point find something from the former contradicted by experiencing the latter. It's part of becoming an individual.

I have tremendous respect for people who were born with people telling them that homosexuality is "wrong" or "sinful", and who come to realize that that's not true. It must be very difficult to overcome that conditioning. But in the end, there is no excuse for bigotry. Everyone is free to think for his or her self, and everyone is free to keep experiencing, keep learning. No one is allowed the excuse "that's how I was raised".

[BlackVelvet04]

51. Absolutely....

I was extremely ignorant about homosexuality. I grew up in a town of 5,000 people and while I'm sure there were homosexuals but I never knowingly knew anyone homosexual. I really was very naive.

Later, I moved to Key West. I was at first shocked, then confused and then came to have homosexual friends and realized that we are what we are and being born a heterosexual didn't make me any better than someone who was born a homosexual or bisexual. It was an interesting journey. Now I don't really care about a person's sexuality....I accept people for who they are.