Chesapeake teen shot trying to enter wrong house

[Squatch]

A teenager received minor injuries in an early morning shooting Sunday. The 16-year-old was taken to Sentara Norfolk General Hospital.

At 3:13 a.m. Sunday, Chesapeake Police responded to a call about a home invasion in the 1100 block of Old Vintage Road, in the Vintage Estates area off Johnstown Road. Police spokesman Charles Thiebaed said police heard two shots when they arrived.

Police said the teenager (recall: 16 years old) had been drinking and was trying to get into a house he thought was his but actually was a neighbor's. The neighbor fired two shots at the teen, hitting him once, according to police.

Link

[BridgeTheGap]

1. Don't really know enough to cast a vote BUT

An artist acquaintance of mine from England relayed this story:
He was a drunk, going home at the wee hours of the morning. He lived in an area of London where the housing all looked pretty much the same. Not wanting to wake anyone, he simply laid down on the sofa to sleep it off. He woke a few hours later, realized he was in the wrong place and quicky left, with the occupants never aware of his presence.

I've been canvassing for our gubenatorial candidate. One of our canvassers, an oriental woman, was waiting for us to pick her up in our rented 15 passenger van. Seeing a white van parked at the side of the ride, she went to the side door and hopped in the van. When the driver turned and looked at her, she realized that this wasn't our van! She said he just gave her a weird look as she apologized and got out. I suppose she was lucky she wasn't shot.

[Evergreen Emerald]

2. hoping into a van in the middle of the day is not the same as

ambling into someone else's house at 3AM.

[iamthebandfanman]

22. it says he TRIED to get into the house

so he didnt actually enter the house according to that wording.

[Zywiec]

6. What is Oriental? n/t

[trotsky]

10. LOL - that jumped out at you, too?

Rugs are Oriental.

Furniture is Oriental.

People are Asian. Or more specifically, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc.

[Zywiec]

11. LOL - I'm on PC patrol this morning! n/t

[BridgeTheGap]

44. Okay, spank me...she's chinese!

and a great person, even if she can't tell the difference between a cargo van and a window van!

[karlrschneider]

45. And that's no Occident!

:evilgrin:

[BridgeTheGap]

53. It was occidental on my part

I am, after all, thoroughly western.

[michreject]

3. Justifiable shooting

How did the homeowner know what the guy wanted?

[Az]

64. Could have asked him

Was there an immediate threat to his life? If not then the guy with the gun had control of the situation. You say stop where you are. I have a gun. What are you doing?

[michreject]

68. By doing this, you give away your location

and element of surprise. Not good.

[rateyes]

4. OK, who is the guardian(s) of this kid?

16 years old, drunk, and sneaking back into what he thought was his house (meaning he was drunk on his ass). If his parents sue over this, they ought to be shot.

[Freedomofspeech]

7. I agree...

[EnviroBat]

5. Responsible gun ownership requires training to assess a threat.

Common sense.

[dmallind]

14. Yep...

....and since a large number of crimes are committed by a)drunks and b)young males - including much younger than 16, then that would be pretty clear evidence of a threat. Do homeowners have to wait to "slap leather" against a visible gun like western movies before they decide to protect themselves? Better hope all criminals have really slow reactions if that's the criterion. Or how else to assess a threat? Surely you can't say drunks aren't dangerous, and surely you can't say 16 yr olds aren't dangerous, and please by all the gods you can't say it's not pretty clear evidence of something suspicious to have a stranger in your house in the dead of night uninvited, so how do you assess risk? Talk to them? Then again we better hope their reactions are slow (remember THEY haven't just woken up like most homeowners would have to at 3AM) if they ARE bent on harm. But hey you have to assess the risk right? I mean strung out strange teenage males in your house in the dead of night are USUALLY perfectly innocent right?

[zanne]

16. I don't understand why you don't see how wrong you are.

You have to be an intelligent person. Obviously, you're old enough to understand that when you take a life, that life is gone forever. What don't you understand? Is it just your personality? Are you an aggressive person, perhaps paranoid and pissed at the world?

[dmallind]

21. Not really and I'm not an arrmchair shrink either.

Did any of what I said sound aggressive? Did I exhibit any desire to shoot someone? I have no such desire. But I - and this howeowner - do have the right to do so in defense of person or property.

If you want to deal in hypotheticals answer me this: What are the chances that a strange young man entering your house at night is completely harmless and engaged in legal activity (again in the latter case the technical answer is zero, since he's already gone beyond the law in entering at night, regardless of whether he was also "breaking", but let's deal with intent here)? What interaction should you engage in to find out whether he is, as is far more likely, intent on the commission of a crime, or a "harmless" drunk? Furthermore how do you know this drunk young man will remain harmless - unpredictable mood swings being pretty much definitive of drunkenness? How long do you wait to see if he is harmless? Or even unarmed? How much risk would YOU take, perhaps with kids asleep in the next room, to see how much of a risk HE was? Want to bet your life on the fact you have faster reactions if he IS intent on harm? I ain't that proud of my "ninja reflexes" personally.

Taking a life is a serious thing indeed. I have never done so, and sincerely hope I never have to. I have never shot at anything but paper, and sincerely hope I never have to. However losing a life in the vain hope that a threat turns out to be harmless is even more serious to me personally.

We simply don't know the facts in this case enough yet but consider that police were called and THEN when they arrived heard shots. Even with GREAT response times that implies to me a considerable span between recognition of intrusion and shooting. What went on in that time? Was that your risk assessment perhaps? Did the drunken young man put his hand inside his jacket to mime pulling a gun? (drunks do stupid things to be "funny") Surely you don't suggest a victim wait until he sees the serial number of the intruder's gun to fire? Maybe he kept walking towards the homeowner after being repeatedly warned to stay put (again drunks do stupid things). Surely then that risk assessment becomes pretty slanted? There's certainly no implication that the homeowner just blasted away at the first shadow he saw. What WOULD be a justifiable shooting without actual harm having been already caused in your opinion? Do you think it's reasonable to wait for this to happen before defending yourself? That's betting your life on the benign intentions of a drunken home intruder isn't it? Pretty poor odds in my opinion.

[zanne]

27. A strange man entering my garage, as is the case.....

Doesn't deserve execution. And no, I'm not an armchair shrink, but I am a human being and I like to go by the golden rule. Perhaps this is just a matter of morality.

[karlrschneider]

34. Garage? WTF are you babbling about?

:eyes:

[dmallind]

35. Again that depends.

How did he enter the garage? The link does not identify a garage, just a house, and does not specify how he gained or attempted to gain entry. Legally you are wrong as far as I understand VA law - a garage or anything attached to a house (I assume in an upscale neighborhood as another poster identifies this one garages are attached) can be defended as a house. Morally? Again that depends. How much risk do you want to take that such a man is only intent on entering your garage (or even house) to sleep off his drunkenness? How long do you wait and how much investigation do you do to be sure of that? Self-defense is certainly moral under most ethical systems and is certainly legal, which is much more salient in a discussion of justifiable shooting.

[zanne]

56. How do you feel about capital punishment? nt

I'm curious .

[CRF450]

82. dmallind posted some very good facts and info

And your not going to atleast think about those situations? Sad...

[EnviroBat]

49. No they are not "usually perfectally innocent", but like you, I can't

back that up with any statistical facts. I do know from Wikipedia hat 2.54. million burglaries were thwarted by hand gun owners, last year and of that I'm a firm believer. But I'm also a believer in at least attempting to verify that someone I may blow away is armed to begin with. I also believe that to announce that I have a gun is to give the home invader a chance to make the next "move" so to speak. If I tell someone I'm armed and they decide to keep walking in then soory, but they're dead, drunk or not.

[GliderGuider]

8. A friend of mine almost shot his wife's 17 year old son when he arrived home late.

My buddy woke up when he heard noises downstairs about 3 a.m. He got out his pistol, loaded it and waited by the bedroom door where he had a clear shot down the hall. The footsteps came up the stairs into the hallway, and just as my friend was tightening up on the trigger the boy turned on the hall light. When his wife found out what had happened, it was the last day my friend ever owned a gun. He was a smart, thoughtful man, too. He took guns seriously, but he also had that curious right-wing "theory x" paranoia and had bought into the whole "home defense" mythology.

[slackmaster]

38. I almost cut my hair

It happened just the other day.

[GliderGuider]

48. Whatever

[Scout]

57. yeah cuz cutting your own hair is EXACTLY like shooting someone for no reason n/t

[NorthernSpy]

59. it's a song!

Just a cultural allusion.






Although I really should cut my bangs, come to think of it.

[slackmaster]

66. A song that was a major hit before most DUers were born

:argh:

[NorthernSpy]

67. before I was, too...

So when I got it, I felt smug! I did!

:crazy:

[slackmaster]

63. There's a big difference between shooting someone and almost shooting someone

:hi:

[Mike Daniels]

9. Mixed thoughts on this one.

Generally, once an intruder is in the house I don't really care how the homeowner decides to handle the threat.

However, if the intruder is on the outside I feel that the property owner should at least attempt to give the intruder a "heads" and a chance to flee before pulling the trigger.

[shadowknows69]

13. I agree

I mean cops are supposed to give warning before they shoot. Supposed to anyway.


Edit to add: If the level of threat allows for that of course. I think if you hear noises or someone outside. Yelling really loudly that you have a loaded gun and know how to use it will give any burglar not similarly armed pause or wake a drunk kid up to his mistake.

[dmallind]

17. Depends

Not when facing imminent threats no. However more germane in this case is this is one of the rare cases where regular citizens have more rights than cops - in their own home. It is perfectly legal to shoot in defense of person or property, and only a suicidal homeowner would waste time giving warning so that a potentially armed intruder could shoot first instead.

[mondo joe]

18. Cops have many obligations that citizens defending themselves don't have. Cops

also have many resources ordinary citizens don't have to help them meet those obligations.

[Bassic]

12. No

Unless the kid was actually going to hurt someone, this is not a justifiable shooting.

[slackmaster]

15. Other - Not enough information to make the call

It's not clear just what the shootee was doing. I'd like to know if he was trying to enter forcefully, e.g. breaking a window. Also, did the homeowner give a verbal warning? (Not that one is necessarily required before shooting.)

I am also not familiar with Virginia state law on use of deadly force.

Getting so drunk you don't realize you are trying to enter the wrong house is dumb, mmmmmmmmmmkay?

[Roseaday]

19. Homeowner should be charged with something

The news last night suggested that the teen might be charged
in this case.  I am disturbed that a homeowner can shoot at a
person on their doorstep b/c they were scared and impatient
for the police to arrive.  The child was not even in the house
and the police had just pulled up on the driveway.  Also,
whoever heard of it being ok to just randomly shoot at someone
without visualizing them.  

[slackmaster]

20. Welcome to DU - Can you please explain where you got that information?

You seem to have more information about the incident than is contained in the article linked to in the original post.

[Roseaday]

23. How I know

I live withing 15 miles of where incident occurred.  The
neighborhood where this occurred is a very upscale
neighborhood.  Shootings are not common at all.  The neighbors
reported that they were very surprised by the incident.  

[iamthebandfanman]

24. i dont think so

i think u can gather that from the article actually(or pretty close to it)

[slackmaster]

31. IMO "...trying to get into a house" is way too vague to know what was really happening

Was the kid fumbling with a locked door?

Was he trying keys?

Was he knocking?

Was he saying anything? Shouting?

Was he attempting to open a window?

Did he have anything in his hands, especially something that might have been construed as a weapon?

[dmallind]

25. What, in this context, does visualizing mean?

And trust me somebody in the house uninvited at night is not random. That's a self selected sample if ever there was one.

[Roseaday]

32. banging and trying to get in

The local news station Wavy 10 last night reported the kid was
trying to enter.  They did not report that he had entered. 
They did not specify what kind of charges could be levied
against the drunk kid.  I'm not lawyer so would not even
attempt to suggest what they might do to him.  He was clearly
in the wrong drunk and disorderly.  But, as I stated before,
this is a nice neighborhood there is not a lot of crime.  I
understand the homeowner's fear of being awoken early in the
morning to what seems to be a crazy yelling person at the door
trying to get in.  If you ring someones doorbell at 3am that
is attempting to get in does it make it ok to shoot me?

[slackmaster]

36. Ringing the doorbell definitely does not justify a shooting

Unless it is done after leaving a burning bag of shit on the porch.

[dmallind]

37. I agree (with the title at least)

The fact that this man was not immediately arrested and charged implies that there was a bit more to this than just ringing a doorbell though.

[Roseaday]

46. More info hopefully coming

I have put a call into the Chesapeake public information
officer and hope to get more information.  If interested check
back.  

[Piltdown13]

72. Wow...something almost identical happened to us a few years ago

Drunk kid (college student) banging on and trying to open our front door at 3 a.m. (also talking loudly on his cell -- apparently he thought our house was his friend's house). When my yelling at him to get lost didn't work, I woke up my boyfriend, who managed to get through to him (SO can be *much* louder than me!). No weapons around, but we *were* not far from calling the cops when he got the message.

[aikoaiko]

26. "had been drinking and was trying to get into a house" -- wtf that does that mean?

Like most media reports -- this one is sorely lacking in details.

If the young man was committing a forcible felony, then it was most likely justified shooting by my states laws. I don't know about Virginia laws.

If he was just ringing the doorbell and crying for his mommy to let him in, then no.

[iamthebandfanman]

28. whats forcible entry tho ?

is trying to turn the door knob and banging on the door considered trying to commit forcible entry ?


i dont think u should be able to shoot anybody outa fear like that unless they actually GET in your house.
if someones banging on a window or door or trying to open it , one would think ud call the police and tell the person trying to get in that youve done so(by shouting)... not shoot at shadows.


what if that had been someone in need of help ? what if the kid wasnt drunk or lost and was being chased or threatened by someone and was only looking for help? i know its a big hypothetical, but it could happen...

[slackmaster]

33. What do you mean by getting into the house?

Does a hand or the head qualify, or should someone have to wait until the person's entire body is inside before taking action?

[aikoaiko]

43. The questions you ask are good examples of why I need more info nt

If at some point the homeowner thought that the drunk kid might actually get through the door, then I would sympathize with shooting.

However, I generally do not advocate one to shoot through doors -- but circumstances vary.

[NOLALady]

52. Some years ago

a teenager was banging at our gate about 3 AM. We live kinda in the boondocks and his "friends" dropped him off and left him. It was winter and he was not dressed for the weather.

I must admit that I was afraid when I heard the commotion outside, but my husband went to investigate. He brought him inside, got a blanket for him, called his parents then hubby took him home.

My husband was in the hospital about ten years after this incident, when the hospital receptionist walked in his room. She said she recognized his name in the admittance records and she was the Mother of the boy that we 'rescued' that night. She wanted to thank him for allowing them to have a few more years with their child. The child died a few years after the morning that he was abandoned at our house.

If it would have been up to me, someone's child may have frozen to death because I was afraid to go to the gate. And yes, we do keep a gun, but it didn't occur to hubby to start shooting.

[dmallind]

29. Yes it's unclear on several counts

a) How much of an entry into the house he made

b) how he attempted to gain entry

c) how he reacted to instructions from the armed homeowner to desist - if at all

The nub of justifiable shooting in most states at least is that there has to be a rationally perceived threat to person or property. Frankly being inside the house uninvited at night is good enough in most cases, as the chance of that not being a threat to person or property is pretty small. Knocking on the door is not. Banging on the door making threats for many minutes while kicking at the lock? Potentially gray area but probably OK. Fumbling with the wrong key for 20 seconds? Nope. Don't know enough really.

My initial "yep" was based on the assumption he was inside the house, and I stand by that if he was. It's not necessarily a "nope" even if he wasn't of course. For example a hypothetical drunk young thug kicking at my door at 3AM until the jamb breaks and screaming "I'm going to kill you you bastard" would be a yep.

[spoony]

62. Excellent post

I voted 'other' because of all the gaps in the story you pointed out.

[karlrschneider]

30. He is a VERY lucky kid.

...

[Wcross]

39. That's why I HATE the "burbs"......

Cookie cutter houses that all look the same. All with a mini-van parked in the driveway. How the hell is a drunk kid to know which house is his?

[slackmaster]

41. Google Maps aerial view does support this thought

Looks like the neighborhood is fairly nwe and has just three or four minor variations of the same floor plan. Houses are all set back about the same distance from the streets, and there isn't a lot of distinguishing landscaping.

[dmallind]

42. Strange that

The most common criticism of the suburbs is what I personally view as much more prevalent in the city - that of identical houses. About the only time when the suburbs have the homogeneity of typical 20s through 50s small urban houses is in townhome complexes.

[rateyes]

47. How the hell is a drunk kid supposed to know which house is his?

His house is the one he ought to be in at 3 o'clock in the friggin morning, sober, and waiting for the alarm clock to get his ass out of bed and go to school or to work.

My bet is that this kid won't be pulling that shit anymore.

[distantearlywarning]

40. I said Other.

I would like some more facts in this case.

Like others in this thread, I don't think any homeowner is justified in shooting someone who is on the grounds of the property but not actually in the house. If the homeowner called the police, were told they were on their way, and then shot the kid in his driveway, well, that's a problem.

On the other hand, if the kid was actually in the house, then it's a shame, but the homeowner should not be held liable. As others have said: 1) it is statistically more likely that the "intruder" at 3 am is a criminal, not a random drunk kid, and 2) it could be dangerous to wait the time necessary to thoroughly determine if a stranger in your dark living room at 3 am is just a lost kid, a drunk kid bent on mischief, not a kid at all, high on PCP, a rapist or murderer, just carrying away your TV, or any combination thereof.

[ieoeja]

50. Other. Legally justifiable. Morally reprehensible. n/t

[Blue_Tires]

51. oh dear

it's a wonder that doesn't happen more often around here

[NightWatcher]

54. Other: horrible accident

Accidents still happen these days. Everytime that something happens it is not always the FAULT of someone.

[Scout]

58. NOT an accident ... trigger pulled, shots fired intentionally n/t

[Nuntius_Barbari]

83. NOT an accident... Kid deliberately got drunk, parents did not keep track of the boy.

You realize the cops are not supposed to get there to keep the homeowner safe from harm. They are on their way to deal with the situation of a drunk trying to enter the home. We don't know what the homeowner knew about who arrived etc. The homeowner was focused on a drunk who was trying to enter their home.

[Renew Deal]

55. Did he come through an open door? Break down a door? Open window?

Broken window? It makes a difference.

[benEzra]

60. Didn't vote, because there isn't enough info to know.

If he's merely fumbling with his keys and homeowner shot him through the door, probably not justifiable.

If a reasonable person in the same situation would have thought an intruder was trying to force entry, or if the guy was aggressively hitting the door such that a reasonable person might conclude someone is trying to bash the door in, or if the guy were trying to get in through a window, it would probably be justifiable.

Not enough info to know at this point. Glad everyone is OK, though.

Here in NC (and in most states), it would be automatically justifiable if the intruder were in the act of trying to enter the home, but fumbling with the lock without opening it probably doesn't count.

If the kid was just drunk, I don't think he should be charged with anything, except perhaps misdemeanor vandalism if he damaged the house trying to get in. Methinks nearly getting yourself killed because you are drunk out of your mind would be more of a wakeup call than a disturbing the peace citation would be.

[Oak2004]

61. Not on the grounds of the evidence presented

(this is the media of course, and the real story could be very different).

Mind you, I'm a gun owner and a martial artist, and I would use my weapons and/or skills to defend myself, my friends, and my family in the unlikely circumstances that it was necessary. There are hundreds of incidents a year in which citizens do defend themselves with firearms (most of them, by the way, ending with the display of the firearm -- only rarely is it necessary to shoot in a legitimate use of a gun for self-defense).

It sounds like the gun owner did not properly assess the threat. Either the owner panicked and forgot everything he knew about home defense, or the owner never learned the right way to do it in the first place. Fortunately for the kid, the owner also either forgot that in a real self-defense situation you shoot for the center of mass (at point blank distances, which this was, had he done so the owner almost certainly would have killed the kid), or the owner is a terrible shot.

Or all of the above: the gun owner is a fine example of why people who have the means to kill (nearly all of us) have the responsibility to look at what the law says about the duties of a defender. We've got a responsibility to carefully examine what our own conscience tells us about the use of violence (choosing not to use violence under any circumstance, and sticking to it, is a legitimate decision; casually deciding one hasn't the capacity for violence or it'll never happen, then when the time comes, freaking out, grabbing an axe, and then chopping down a fleeing unarmed burglar is not legitimate). And we have a responsibility to prepare by (at minimum) running through plausible scenarios in our minds, seeing oneself responding as our consciences and the scenario dictates.

Better yet, act them out -- pretend to call 911, retreat to a safe room if available, and yes, if consistent with one's conscience, pretend to take whatever weapon one has (whether it be a gun or a broomstick) and pretend to decide whether, when, and how to use it. This kind of preparation is a part of the emergency preparation we all ought to be doing ("pretend there's a fire in the hallway -- now what do I do?", "pretend there's a tornado warning -- what do I do?", etc.). Preparing like this would go far to prevent these tragic errors of judgment.

[hedgehog]

65. This is what happens when people live in a state of fear. nt

[mudesi]

69. The votes of "Justifiable Shooting" are a disgrace (nm)

Shame on you people.

[tammywammy]

70. Need more information before voting

[ManiacJoe]

71. Other - not enough data to make an informed decision.

Even playing hypotheticals are no fun with so little data to go on.

[NutmegYankee]

73. UPDATE: Homeowner to not be charged.

http://content.hamptonroads.com/story.cfm?story=135780&ran=221959

Charges are not expected to be filed against a Chesapeake homeowner who shot her teenage neighbor during a mistaken home invasion.

The 16-year-old suffered minor injuries Sunday morning after he was shot once in the 1100 block of Old Vintage Road, in the Vintage Estates area off Waters Road. Police said the boy had been drinking and tried to get into his neighbor's Great Bridge home, thinking it was his own house.

Chesapeake police said they will consult with the commonwealth's attorney's office to determine if the teen should be charged. The investigation is ongoing, said Christi Golden, a police spokeswoman.

The teen was banging on the neighbor's door, yelling to be let in, police said. He was at the neighbor's back porch at one point and moved to another door, police said.

As he attempted to get into the second door, he was shot, police said. No one in the home was harmed.

http://content.hamptonroads.com/story.cfm?story=135780&ran=221959

[CRF450]

74. And their you have it folks.

I would have possibly fired too if someone was baning on all my doors at 3am.

[Swamp Rat]

75. What did he yell? ... "DAD! Let me in!!"???"

"Mom! Wake up!"???

I wonder why the neighbor didn't just tell him, "wrong house asshole!" :shrug:

[sandnsea]

78. Or consider someone was in danger

This country is sure full of a lot of paranoid people.

[Recovered Repug]

79. According to the story, the women in the house yelled for him to

leave and called the police before shooting.

[CRF450]

81. And according to the article

Just when the cops showed up, they heard two gun shots. So it probably took about a few minutes for them to arrive.

[sandnsea]

77. Well this is horrifying

I don't even know what kind of insane person shoots at someone just for banging on their door. What if someone was in danger themselves. This country is completely fucked in the head to consider this acceptable self defense.

[Tektonik]

76. I'm voting 'other'

Not enough info on the situation.

[MrSlayer]

80. After reading the update I'm thinking the shooting was wrong.

The dude was banging on the door loaded, it wasn't like he snuck in and startled the woman. It seems that she had time to stick her head out the window and yell "You don't live here fuckface!" instead of shooting. I wonder if she knew the kid or if she had problems with him in the past. More detail is needed but I'm leaning toward unnecessary.

[Nuntius_Barbari]

84. More detail was in the linked article:

"They were very scared and frightened, and they weren't sure why this person was trying to get into their home," Golden said. "They were yelling for him to leave."

The homeowner called police before she fired two shots at the teen, hitting him once, police said. Police responded at 3:13 a.m. Sunday. As police arrived, they heard two shots. The teen never entered the house, police said.

Police did not release the names of the teen or the homeowner. No one answered the door of the home around 6:30 p.m. Monday.

The kid was apparently not coherent enough to let the people know why he was banging on their door. The homeowner did try to tell him to leave, and the kid should have realized his family would not have acted like that. But, the kid was drunk.

You think the parents will monitor their kid better? You think the kid will not get drunk for a while?

[LWolf]

85. I don't understand people

who are so determined to live in fear that every noise in the night needs a loaded weapon.

[bread_and_roses]

86. Some people here think banging on a door warrants being killed?

And shooting at someone outside your house while you are inside, with a locked door between you and the shouter and the police on the way is justifiable? Unbelievable.

And on edit for the completely predictable slurs on the parents of the 16 yr old - I guess none of you ever got drunk when you were 16? Or if you did, your parents must also be negligent, indifferent, etc?