I really do believe in the United States more than anything.

[Joe for Clark]

We are a truly great people. In the history of the world, we are really the only ones to go to war to set other people free. That is our heritage.

We were born in violence mixed in principle - and we DO run people out of town on a rail, dip them in tar and feathers, all that - when they do not do the right thing.

I think some politicans better come to terms with our country, who we are - cause I understand - that tar can be pretty hot.

Joe

[monmouth]

1. Every now and then we lose our faith in our fellow man, but watching

the outpouring of volunteerism, and a mindset of just giving and helping in the last few days in California has pretty much renewed my awe of the greatness of our people. You're right Joe, we are great, we just need to remind ourselves of that once in a while..

[Joe for Clark]

4. Maybe we lost our way for a few years.

Well, we did.

But remember, just a bump in history. Doesn't change who we are.

I trust our people. We do the right thing in the end. We always have.

Joe

[book_worm]

9. I trust the American people. It's our leaders who I distrust.

Most people in foreign countires like the American people but not our leadership at this time.

[Joe for Clark]

16. Oh - I don't trust these people - I just know our people -

And if they don't - they are going to get a harsh lesson in "reality".

I think - you can live in the reddest or bluest state in the country - it doesn't matter. Cause at the end of the day - they answer to us. And if they continue to screw us - they will have a very bad day coming.

I trust us in the end.

Joe

[Zywiec]

2. Please pass the butter...

:popcorn:

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. Damn you will need a ton of the stuff

:popcorn:

[LSK]

3. uhh, France and England declared war on Germany in 1939

After Germany invaded Poland.

French Revolution?

:shrug:

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

5. I believe its people are remarkable. However, the government is out of control in all the worst,...

,...ways.

Unfortunately, this government is SUPPOSE to reflect us, the people. It fails. Instead, it manipulates us, the people.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

22. I must add, it's a multi-cultural and richly diverse people that makes this nation, "great". nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. Funny Sparta, Rome and Persia

believed they were that good too

Did I mention the Brits

We are NOT exceptional and I hate this IMPERIAL TALK

[Joe for Clark]

8. No they didn't -

You do not know.

Rome never went to war for anything that didn't benefit Rome. Sparta - liked war - and did it for a purpose.

Persia burned Athens to the ground in a dispute between two brothers that sought control of Persia. And strangely, that is the neo con model - no shit, it really is.

Britan - out for empire only. Name some country they ever went to war to protect for the interest of the people, for their protection. You can't.

No - we are different - a paradigm that has not happened before.

That is who we are Nadin - and if we go extinct as a country - people need to remember - that is who we were - that is what our ancestors died for.

Maybe everything we ever stood for gets pissed down the drain - maybe.

But we are a very good people - and if that happens, the people that did this to us - can burn in hell.

Joe

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. We don't go to war unless it beneifts us

why don't you read Smedley Butler?

[Joe for Clark]

14. In the days and weeks before Pearl Harbor the peace

movement in the United States out powered the war movement about 2 to 1.

You know that??

When we went to war - FDR fully understood- Germany had ultimate intentions to control the United States. He knew that. We were his "wild card".

Now the truth of this intention was never proved publicly until the release of the Mein Kamp sequel about 6 or 7 years ago.

FDR did know they were in development of a 6 engine bomber that could have only one purpose - to reach the eastern seaboard, at least at the time.

Why do you think we concentrated on Germany?? Japan attacked us.

FDR certainly understood one thing - he had to free Europe. We are all, almost all, Europeans by decendancy.

He did that.

I don't believe in war - unless there really is no other alternative - maybe that happens once in a thousand years. But when it came - we did the right thing. ANd it cost us dearly.

Joe

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Comparing apples with oranges

and if you think we didn't go to war for OUR self interests, I have a bridge to sell you.

ALL, I repeat this ALL STATE ACTORS go to war for their own damn interests

At times we get lucky and a war, (WW II was one of them) also frees people... and becomes a just war or as close as we can get to one

But NO STATE ACTOR GOES TO WAR FOR SOMEBODY ELSE'S BENEFIT

If you want to believe otherwise, you believe in myth

Smedley Butler got it... you don't

And good ol' Smedley has quite a bit of medals and front line service to his credit too

We are NOT exceptional and that is what is hurting this country... this false belief in exceptionalims, which is not that different than the White Man's Burden or Rome's Pax Imperialis.

It is a myth for the citizenry to accept IMPERIAL policy.

[Joe for Clark]

25. I guess we just don't agree Nadin -

What ever you believe - it sure turned out we did as I suggested.

I don't believe in coincidence.

Nadin - if we truly had imperial motives - we'd own a chunk of Germany right now, wouldn't we??

They teach in school - I am going to a war college - that paradigms did not change since 1945. They are wrong. You know how I know? Cause in May of 1945 we could absolutely have insisted on reperations - and ended up taking a chunk of Germany. By every logical, past war - we would have, The day we did not do that thing - the world changed.

DO not judge us based on this one bastard - he is just one little bastard.

Joe

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. History is on my side on this one

and I know that

by the way, there are many ways to run an Empire

But we have the largest numbers of bases around the world since the Roman Empire

And we don't use occupation forces... that is what COLONIAL policies are for.

GATT, WTO, NAFTA... yep those are the new way

And our empire started with manifest destiny, another piece of Myth Making...

And no, we don't agree

Damn Masters in History...

But there is a reason why OUTSIDE the US, many call this PAX AMERICANA and NEW IMPERIALISM

As I said, Smedley Butler GOT IT.

[Joe for Clark]

33. Nadin I am not studying History - I am studying war -

How to do it - why you do it - all that.

If America wanted to create an empire - we would have done it.

I am admittedly an America first type person - I am - but I think with good reason.

America, end of the day - it is us.

I trust us.

Joe

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. We already did, and already have

that is what you are missing

And we are about to loose it

Perhaps after that, this American Exceptionalism crap will die as well

[Joe for Clark]

45. I hope not.

It is not exactly that we are so exceptional really - it is that the movement we started is.

We may go to war for many reasons. Sometimes - they are the right reasons. Doesn't happen very often - but sometimes, they do.

Last century was one. If we are lucky, it won't happen again for another thousand years.

You don't think I understand that??

I know what war does.

Joe

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. Yes, you understand what war does

what you are missing by a mile is how non exceptional this country is, and now like EVERY OTHER EMPIRE it is

And the American Empire will be lost...

And a little humble pie might be good for this country

[Joe for Clark]

51. What I understand war does -

Screws people up the rest of their lives. This I understand.

Take America away from me - those are fighting words. We stand for something. This is my country - "America love it or leave it" - in the 21st Century version - how different the times are now.

I will fight for what I think the United States means - a blue state guy and I will be fighting with many red states guys and gals. This is our country - not theirs.

We understand it just fine - even if they don't. American empire huh - what empire? - see we forgot that we were supposed to be conquering as we died in bloody fields.

One thing the republicans try and say - America may be the last best hope of western democracy -they just may be right about that. We just don't agree how to get there.

I think it may be that simple.

Joe

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. It IS am EMPIRE, just different from OTHER empires across hsitory

and it is going to fall

You will see a retrenchment as troops come come

You will see a retrencment the same way the Ruskies did after the USSR fell, and for the same macro economic reasons

WE CANNOT AFFORD IT

And you kow what? This country needs to get off the exceptional crap

It does...

We are NOT exceptional, never have, and never will

We are just like ANY OTHER STATE ACTOR, and we do what fits OUR NATIONAL Interests.

Once you realize just how the same we are to OTHER NATIONS, you realize why we need to fight so your son does not go to war for CORPORATE interests

That has not changed, from the early 20th century

Once again, READ SMEDLEY BIUTLER'S WAR IS A RACKET

[Joe for Clark]

55. The problem with recognizing a paradigm - is you can't see it

for a hundred years. It is a problem.

So I just judge by the result.

And it may be true I am jaded by the history that makes us stand here now - the history that I think makes us exceptional. Maybe.

But you make judgements from what you know and perceive. There is no doubt the United States screwed people over the many decades - we did. Ask the indians. But we are here now - and we do try and make things right - at least as we learn from the experience.

I do not trust, will ever trust another people to do that which we were born to do. We do the right thing as we see it. And we put our money where our mouth is.

This "president" jaded our perceptions of history - but it is just a blip on our history in the end. Just that.

Let me ask you - would you have said what you say in 1999??

I am very American - I admit that - But I think we are blessed - and we will be for a long time.

Joe

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. self delete

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. Yes but I am familiar with the history of hte US

and perhaps you should have a candid talk with Native American people who will flatly tell you... that nobody has made things right for them.

Perhaps you should have a talk with those who survived the Central Ameican mess... that was funded with Iran Contra

As I said, read Smedley Butler and pull the propaganda wool off your eyes

[Joe for Clark]

62. Would you have said the same thing in 1999?

I am asking.

My wife is part Souix.

Joe

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. YES, what part of YES are you missing

I am familiar with the history of this country and this nation has not made it right for Native Americans

If you believe such... I have a bridge to sell you.

What stats do you want?

[Joe for Clark]

74. You know today - if you ask a hundred people what they think

of the treatment of the indians - I think they say bad things about what we did in 1880.

SO we learn, maybe slowly - but we learn. We are all people here.

Midway works for us in 1942. You know who pulled it off? A plains indian, against orders, that tracked Jap carriers down - with some inate hunte instinct. He did that. And the war in the pacific was turned on its head in five minutes. Thank god he was there.

You don't think we remember - I remember - and years from now - we will remember.

We are one people - we always will be - up or down.

Strange isn't it? - A Guy that maybe got looked down on many times in his life - saves us in the end. He will be remembered in the end too.

No - we are destined for better things.

Joe

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. Joe we are NOT exceptional

and we have not made it right by Native Americans

Or central americans

Or right now Iraqis

Sorry

But I do not swallow the same nationalist crap you are eating in spoonfuls right now, what spoonfuls, bocketfulls

[earth mom]

108. You are absolutely correct.

The corporations OWN this country. Forget the people-we are peons and totally disposable to the powers that be.

The OP could learn something by reading "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" by John Perkins.

[ThomCat]

If they know what they're talking about

they'll tell you that our goverment is still screwing with Native Americans. All the money our government supposedly has In Trust for them based on the sale of natural resources on reservations, unaccounted for. The Dept of the Interior has been held in Contempt of Court repeatedly for failing to collect and account for the money Native Americans are owed. We're still ripping them off today.

We're consistently underminging the sovereignty of reservations consistently and systematically. And even what little protections tribes manage to get are denied some east coast surviving tribes because they were never put on official reservations. The same goes for the native people of Hawaii, who are denied recognition as Native Americans.

You're talking about some ideal of what America should be, but you're talking about it as if it were real. It's not real, and it never has been. Every nation teaches their people whitewashed myths about how wonderful their homeland is. You're believing the myths you've been taught.

Grow up and look at real history.

[Blashyrkh]

57. Well said, and completely lost on the ignorant.

[Donnachaidh]

86. Nadin is correct --

And all these posts are nothing more than the same sort of flag-waving schmaltz that has gotten us into all this trouble.

Try reading Chalmers Johnson, or any other author out there who has been documenting just what our own government has been doing since WWII, all for the benefit of that *glorified vision* of The US as Empire.

And of course, because our government has done it's damndest to bully other nations into submission, we dumbasses back home can wear our beercan hats and our plastic flags on our trucks and shout about being NUMBER ONE.

We really (and I mean ALL of us, right down to Joe SixPack) need to learn to shut up and actually BE a bit more humble about ourselves. Perhaps if we stop running our mouths so loud and so long we'll actually start paying attention and thinking about what other countries around the world think of us.

And yes -- it DOES matter what others think. In the real world, that is.

All the dredged up soundbites from a WWII newsreel isn't going to change the FACT of what we've become. What WE'VE allowed ourselves to become. Not ONE citizen in this country is totally blameless.

:rant off:

[Joe for Clark]

89. flag waving - is that what you think this is??

Sad - very sad.

The only way you may have an idea where you are going is to know where you come from.

If you don't at least have that - you are screwed.

Joe

[ThomCat]

102. What does that even mean?

How do you have any clue where we're from if you're believing idealized, sanitized, Rah Rah stories about how wonderful and ideal our country has supposedly been?

Have you looked at what we have done in South and Central America? Or the history of our involvement in the Philipines? Or how we treated Native Americans (and continue to treat them today)? Or how we treat our own poor compared to every other industrialized nation?

or just look at the history of our CIA. That will tell you a hell of a lot about what America stands for. They represent our government's aims and ambitions far more accurately than what you are taught in school.

[Joe for Clark]

104. OK - then leave me alone. You don't know what I know

I don't know what you know - so we need no platitudes here.

Right??

Joe

[ThomCat]

105. Platitudes?

Sorry, but in my opinion the OP was nothing but platitudes. There was no substance to it, and no real understanding of history.

[Joe for Clark]

107. You believe whatever you want.

No understanding of history - that pisses me off a little.

But - whatever gets you thru the night.

Joe

[nadinbrzezinski]

113. All these posts show you do not understand US Hisstory

starting from the Lousianna purchase all the way to our flag plant in Baghdad

It is empire... pure and simple

Open your eyes

Or as Santayana has put it

Those who refuse to learn from history are condemned to repeat it

[earth mom]

109. Yep-The world sees us as Arrogant Americans. Humility-what a concept! nt

[YankmeCrankme]

118. We didn't declare war on them until they declared war on us. NT

[muriel_volestrangler]

123. Your example rather disproves your contention, Joe

As you say, there was a significant feeling in the US against war against Germany before Pearl Harbor. FDR may have been doing a lot to help Britain before that, but he hadn't gone to war. And the US didn't declare war on Germany after it, either - Germany declared war on the US.

Meanwhile, there are countries that have gone to war on behalf of others - as pointed out earlier, Britain and France declared war on Germany because it had invaded Poland, and they had made a defence pact with Poland. Australia and New Zealand also joined the war against Germany, when they themselves were not threatened. Now, it's possible to argue that all declarations of war involve the interests of the country concerned; but there's no war in which you can't say that the US was just following its own interests.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

17. I ask one favor of you, friend. Please, please please please do not say "we",...

,...when the worst of human horrors in our history has happened, NOT PER THE PEOPLE but rather the so-called representatives.

I can tell many stories about close relationships between races in my own little state. They are beautiful.

It's always been the "representatives" and the small lots of followers that caused most of the suffering.

I could stand on a street corner, anywhere in this country, and be confident that the vast majority would support peace among EVERYONE and assistance to ANYONE who needs help, with NO REGARD to sex or color or religion or political affilition or physical challenge or otherwise. I KNOW THAT IS THE PEOPLE IN OUR COUNTRY. They care.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. I'm using the WE as state actor

as defined in Internatioanl Law

[OwnedByFerrets]

10. I agree with you 100%. I actually had to look

and see of the OP was a freeper, then I saw who it was. We are no better than the worst of us. And in this point in history, we are among the worst. EVER! We, me you and joe, allowed this to happen. No matter how you want to spin it, we allowed it to happen. And, we will pay a price for our collective apathy.

[Joe for Clark]

18. Oh - God - we did allow it to happen.

Now we have to fix it.

We may indeed have to take our country back, from evil influences. We have done harder things.

Joe

[ThomCat]

103. Our government represents us, and we are responsible for what it does

even if we don't have direct control over it.

You can't claim that we have the most wonderful nation in the world and then say "except for everything our government does that i don't approve of." That's self-serving non-sense. Our nation is what it is, taken as a whole. We have to honestly acknowledge our nation's history and current actions if we are ever going to have any hope of turning this country into what you seem to assume it already is.

[cali]

12. I don't believe we're exceptional

and furthermore, I think we're a violent people as well.

[Lisa]

13. as a Canadian -- I think you are fine neighbors

While no nation is perfect, I have been fortunate enough to meet many fine Americans whom I am glad to consider as friends. One of the most endearing things about your country is that there are so many people who are modest and insightful, and quick to deny that Americans are more special than anybody else or ought to be treated as such.

It is this ability to self-criticize -- and to learn, and to strive for that "more perfect union" -- that really gives me a lot of hope.

[Joe for Clark]

23. We are the same you know - I don't think of Canada any less

than US - You are a great people. Maybe we are seperated by a border - but we are the same - think the same. When the shit hit the fan - we fought together. Most of us know that.

I have heard the little SOB disparage Canada sometimes - and I think - who the f*ck are you. We all died together once - to stop a dark age. No - Canada is one of us - and always will be.

We are together - and this abomination will pass.

Joe

[Lisa]

28. thank you, Joe

It makes me upset, that Bush seems to be going out of his way to defraud Americans, send them into danger -- and humiliate them by making them look like ignorant bullies. All the while, acting as if people should be grateful to him for doing this. I have to admit that it gladdens my heart to see anti-Bush bumper stickers on cars driving up across the border.

[Joe for Clark]

31. I hope you learn just how much that bastard is hated here.

It is deep.

We know our friends. Even if he doesn't. He is not us.

He is an aboration.

Canada and us stand together -we always will.

We did that on a bloody little beach once - we are tied together by blood.

We will always protect each other.

Joe

[devilgrrl]

15. "we are really the only ones to go to war to set other people free"

Oh yeah? Where?

[Joe for Clark]

19. You don't know??

[devilgrrl]

24. No. Actually, I don't.

Japan is a one party state - hardly, what I'd consider as "free". Vietnam is communist like it wanted to be before the US got there. Daniel Ortega is still around in Nicaragua. Somalia is still run by "war lords." Korea is still divided.

Oh oh oh, I get it, we freed the prisoners from concentration camps during WWII - I stand corrected.

Got any others to add to the list? Anything from the last 50 years? Or do we have to continue going all the way back to the 1940's to find anything decent?

[Joe for Clark]

27. History didn't start 50 years ago.

It is a little deeper than that.

DO not go to concentration camp stuff - you really don't want to hear me go off on that. You know I am catholic, right? And you have no idea how badly I think of Germany or Japan for what they did back then. ANd you will never know why. I generally get kicked off when I light into Japan about it. And I mean every word I say about what they did to our guys.I do not forgive them.

You don't really know what happened in those "camps" do you. I do. That is why I will never forgive it.

Joe

[devilgrrl]

29. I didn't ask you about concentration camps. I asked you to list who we went to war with to set free.

So far you've done nothing but beat around the bush.

Pun intended.

[Joe for Clark]

38. Beat around the B*sh - funny.

I asuppose you could go to the free the slaves thing in 1863 -not ever a war aim in 1861. I suppose.

But I am not.

About once a millenium - there is a true dark force. It is hard to go back more than a thousand years, really. For us anyway, since we were not there a thousand years ago.

But we were there in the 1940s alright.

You brush off the camps - they were the war - what it is was really about.

Who do you think really stopped that?

Do you know what it was we stopped. You know how many Americans died to stop it??

Hell, they didn't even know what it was til they did stop it. FDR did. He made cold decisions about it - to stop it. Very cold. Brillant decisions in retrospect.

Not heat of a battle stuff - you can even understand the heat of the moment stuff.

Cold calculating stuff. Are you Jewish, slav ?- You'd be dead now if they didn't stop it. God I am so proud of those guys. They died hard to stop something they may not have even understood. Dad was there at Buchenwald - he understood. No pictures necessay - just a smell in his mind til he died. My moms family - murdered at other camps. All catholic, too. What Japan did - may be worse.

You judge the United States in the few past decades - we have a lot of decades to look at.

Joe

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. No Joe the camps were NOT the reason we went to war

far from it

If they were the reason... why didn't the US High Command AUTHORIZE bombing Aushwitz? And they knew about it as early as '42

The ALLIES knew about the holocaust as early as '42... and they chose to do nothing

In fact, that was one of the discusions at the upper levels of the Federal Government

You may be able to pull the wool over people's eyes... but I know the history.. also from PRIMARY sources, as in MY FAMILY...

We freed them, but so did the Ruskies... and that is when the world learned what ALLIED CHIEFS OF STAFF knew about for some years.

[devilgrrl]

43. How sad that the US hasn't done DICK in the freedom department in my life time.

Thanks for not answering the question! :hi:

Though, I do dig that you had to reach all the way back to the 1860's!!! Yeah, it seems like yesterday!

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. I'm on your side

;-)

[devilgrrl]

47. And I, yours.

:-)

[Joe for Clark]

90. You dig that I looked to a century ago - that right??

Ok - what do you know that I don't?? Not a lot huh.

Joe

[devilgrrl]

124. When are you going to give an example of going to war to create "freedom"?

Huh?

[Joe for Clark]

48. It was just a cold calculation.

To disrupt the rail lines in and out of camps would disrupt them for a few days - at the cost of strategic bombing that would end a war. A cold blooded calculation that had to be made.

The Russians freed them?? They killed twenty million people of their own.

They knew - our leaders of the deal going on - they knew to stop it they had to bring Germany to its knees. 11 months after D-Day - they did.

Some of my family died because of that decision - it was the right decision.

Cold as that sounds - it is true. Thank god FDR was in charge. Smart man.

Joe

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. Historians don't agree with you

and as more and more documents are unclassed, more we learn that you are wrong

Sorry...

Oh and your numbers on the ruskies are wrong

Not twenty million... sixty million

[Joe for Clark]

53. I have read that figure - it doesn't add up though.

Cause many people agree, if it was 60 million they could never have defended Stalingrad.

That FDR made a cold decision to abandon bombing campaigns against concentration camps - he did. You know there are letters between him and jewish cabinet members about this - he understood full well what he was doing. Cold isn't it?

He ended a bloody war in 11 months too - he was right. And we paid in family because of it -but he was right - it is the way war goes.

That is one of the reasons you don't do war.

Joe

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. Now you are arguing different things

as to Russian casualties you mean the gulags? That is sixty million

War Casualties, you are talking 20-25 million

TWO DIFFERENT ANIMALS

You are arguing why we don't do war, not why we are or are not exceptional...

And we ARE NOT exceptional.. PERIOD

[Joe for Clark]

56. No - the people Stalin had to kill to stay in power before 1942 -

Best extimates I have seen are 20 million - that if it was much more he could not have stood at Stalingrad - let alone Moscow - you are looking to periods that exceed that time frame.

Joe

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. Joe you have a way of being selecttive

But HISTORIANS yes, those people that look at dusty documents for fun

Put the death toll in Russia under Stalin at 60 million...

They don't make the difference berween the Kulaks, (15 millon) and the purges of the 1930s (another tweney million), and the purges post war (another 25 million)

They also separeate these casualties from war time Red Army Soldiers killed in the line of duty,many of whom came from prisons and gulags, and had higher than average casualties.

[Joe for Clark]

66. You go post and pre war like water -

You know even those figures - they don't know.

Nobody will know.

Best estimates are he killed about 20 million people - old Stalin - before the war in Germany even started - including almost all his officers.

He killed most of the Polish officer corps too.

Joe

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. I just gave you the nnumbers

and I am not saying good ol Joe was a good man, he wasn't

Point is, you have been quite wrong about this

And you really need to get the wool off your eyes

The reason why your son is in Iraq is precisely this American Exceptionalism and Empire

[Joe for Clark]

77. Oh Nadin - he was supposed to go to Afghanistan -

He got sent to Iraq - something I am still pissed about.

It is ok that we disagree - that is what makes the country work - different thoughts.

His war is over Nadin. I think.

Joe

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. Here is a term for you to learn

blowback

and I hope he does not have to go there again...

But he is where he is becuase of Empire and the PNAC plan

And I wish you could undertand that

As to disagreements, I'm sorry it is KNOWING the history,,, not the disneyland history... that does not allow me to think this is an exceptional country... it is a good country, but not exceptional nor is there any manifest destiny

[Joe for Clark]

80. They call it eurocentrisim really.

A belief in Western warfare. That we represent the 7th paradigm in war. That is what it is called really.

Maybe we do -

And god knows we made mistakes. But understand we made the mistakes.

You think of America as a government - I don't -I think of America as us - just us people.

We make mistakes, we are people, people make mistakes - that is not the criteria -that has to do with if we understand we make mistakes and try and fix them.

Name another power in history that tried to do that!!!

Do I believe we are exceptional - I don't think so - I know so.

Maybe we are the last best hope - if we are - then you are the last best hope - you are America.

Joe

[nadinbrzezinski]

82. You keep believing that mythology

and don't complain when it finally kills the country

[Joe for Clark]

84. It might kill us - no doubt - but we are Americans -

We may indeed go down - but we will go down screaming too.

And it is not just us - conservatives and liberals will go down in the same boat.

I don't think they can sink us - certainly not if we stand together. We are of the same mind.

Joe

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. No we are not

in fact, many observers who UNDERSTAND how civil wars start and develop see the clouds of one in the horizon

As I said, keep living the fantasy

[Joe for Clark]

88. It is funny Nadin - the first thing you learn in school -

is you don't know anything about war that can realistically be projected on another war.

It is a hard thing to come to terms with - cause it means - you really don't know.

I didn't like that - but I came to know they were right.

So you fight a war with only the knowledge of the past wars - that is all you can know.

Who are these "many observers" that know civil wars - the hardest to understand by definition.

They know nothing - and the most dangerous people are those that profess to know that do not.

I don't know anything Nadin - I just understand likely tactics - not outcomes.

I have tried to say - over and over - I just want the kids out of there - I know this is not their fight - and they are too young and stupid not to call bullshit. I am trying to call bullshit for the kids. BULLSHIT!

Joe

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. Now you are trying to change the subject

by the way those experts you are discounting have warned of civil wars when the first sings appear in the horizo

Guess what Joe, the gathering clouds of a SECOND AMERICAN CIVIL WAR are on the horizon

They are getting dark

And by the way... you want to get the kids out of there... open your eyes to what we have done as a nation across our history

Those who refuse to learn from history (that's you) are dommed to repeat it

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. I just gave you the nnumbers

and I am not saying good ol Joe was a good man, he wasn't

Point is, you have been quite wrong about this

And you really need to get the wool off your eyes

The reason why your son is in Iraq is precisely this American Exceptionalism and Empire

[RebelSansCause]

122. you do realize the ahem "affect" of the Emancipation Proclamation right?

no? well let me break it down for you. it freed no one. not one slave. it declared that only the slaves in territories engaged in rebellion against the USA (ie. the confederacy) were to be freed. wow, something that we had NO power to enforce, i mean we are oh idk...at WAR with them. so, there are also these other states that didn't leave the union that did have slaves, called the border states. maryland and a few others. the slaves in those states were NOT FREED by the Emancipation Proclamation. that's right, not freed. Lincoln freed them as a rallying point, to give the war a moral cause. this happened right after Gettysburg I believe. the south had been might resilient up until this point, and lincoln didn't want to piss them off too bad. but now, that it was clear the north would win, now the proclamation was issued, and it had no effect whatsoever. in fact, lincoln was going to let the south straight back into the union and all they had to do was ratify one or two amendments and not take a loyalty test. the radical republicans who took over after lincoln's untimely death put in motion reconstruction that helped secure at least some rights for the freedmen.

[Disturbed]

30. History needs to be studied.

The USA attacked Canada twice & was defeated. The USA attacked Mexico & took quite a chunk of their Territory. Recently a Poster detailed America's Imperialism in pictures. That was almost accurate.USA has practiced Imperialism on a grand scale & continues to do so. America is now a Super Power because of Industrialization & Military dominance. Seperating "The American People" & the Plutocracy is needed. Painting America as the greatest country on earth needs to be examined by the actions of the people in power over the past hundreds of years. Is it just as simple as painting America as "The land of the free & the home of the brave"?

[devilgrrl]

34. The OP states that the US goes to war to set people free and I'm asking who and where...

I haven't got a answer yet.

[dysfunctional press]

99. well...we set the hawaiians free...just like we liberated a lot of native americans...

from their land.

[nadinbrzezinski]

121. and lives, don't forget the lives

:-(

[mr blur]

32. Sorry, but much as you seem to need to fool yourself,

this just isn't true:

"we are really the only ones to go to war to set other people free."

You seem to have no real idea of the US's place in the world and in history.

[Disturbed]

35. WW2 was about resources & territory as was WW!.

Japan was trying to expand. The US Govt. & the Industrialists were trying to keep Japan from doing so.
Germany was doing the same & the UK responded. The US Govt. was aiding the UK & finally Germany declared War on the US. That is the simple version. The notion that the US entered the great War to free people might be a wonderful notion but that wasn't the reason that the US engaged.

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. DIng, DING, DING, DING

give the man a cigar!

That it morphed into a just war was circumstance on the ground

[Disturbed]

39. I don't smoke cigars but thanks.

It really irks me that millions of people are delusional about reality. To read that delusion on this board upset me to the point that I just had to spend time to correct the delusion & inject some facts.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. Facts, shmatz, some folks really don't care for them

and the myth of american exceptionalism is a very strong narcotic

[Joe for Clark]

41. One of us doesn't.

[burythehatchet]

49. Joe, I believe American Exceptionalism is a huge problem.

In reality, by constantly proclaiming our "we're number 1" status we are showing ourselves to be very insecure as a nation. We are not exceptional people. We were given the gift of an exceptional idea, we tried it, we fucked it up.

The Nazi virus never died. It was just looking for a new host and found one in today's conservative coalition of fundies and fascists.

[Joe for Clark]

60. Only if we let it take root. I am betting we don't.

I will not judge our history as a civiliztion - given all we did do - by this little prick. And understand - he is just a little prick. We are a lot more than that.

Joe

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. We are NOT exceptional

and he is the product of this exceptionalism as an ideology....

Why people wave flags, after all we are only liberating poor brown people (of their lives and oil in this case)

[Joe for Clark]

67. He is not a product of anything - just a flunky asshole.

He doesn't represent anything but himself.

He will go to hell for that too. If there is any karma at all.

Joe

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. He represents the worst of the RIGHT WING IDEOLOGY OF

AMERICAN EXCEPTIONALISM AND EMPIRE

[Morereason]

93. Nationalism contributes to the causes of war. It is a form of prejudice against others

[Joe for Clark]

94. It can be.

[Joe for Clark]

97. No more posts here. OK - I am asking.

[ileus]

64. So do I Joe....100% proud American

Congrats on an excellent post.

[Blashyrkh]

70. Wouldn't that piss God off a little? You know, the whole "false idol" thing.

[ileus]

76. Not really...I don't pray to America. I'm proud to be American

and you can't change that...Now don't get me wrong, I don't fly the flag, I don't claim America is God's country. I don't proclaim America's the best country on earth. However.com that doesn't keep me from loving my country. There's nothing wrong with being proud of your country and the lifestyle it affords you.

[Blashyrkh]

81. Quote from OP: "I really do believe in the United States more than anything"

Anything must include everything apart from the United States. Therefore, the statement implies that the OPs belief in his country will trump all other beliefs. You agreed 100%.

I apologise if this seems antagonistic, one of my hobbies is dissecting statements where people intend to say one thing, but actually say another.

[Joe for Clark]

87. Good logic - I respect that.

Ok -I believe more in what the United States stands for more than anything else I believe in. A I believe it.

Hopefully I diffuse the if a than b = c logic. I meant what I said - take it word for word. No cuteness.

Joe

[Joe for Clark]

83. Funny you say god.

See I am part of this "vast left wing conspiracy" to turn focus back to the teachings of christ as a concept. -Not to sound religious, cause I am not really - and not to convert anyone - believe whatever you want. Maybe it doesn't matter if you you do the right thing anyway.

But if you want to call yourself christian - better be able to reconcille yourself to the teachings.

The "What so ever you do to the least of my brother, that you do unto me" - paramount teaching - You know that means if you are going to do something -better be prepared to do the same to god - in person.

Cause if you can't you are no christian.

God knows I cut the CCD classes whenever possible - but I understood that teaching very well.

Lets see if they did.

Joe

[Blashyrkh]

91. Might be worth re-reading what you're writing.

Quote:
The "What so ever you do to the least of my brother, that you do unto me" - paramount teaching - You know that means if you are going to do something -better be prepared to do the same to god - in person.

Cause if you can't you are no christian.
---
If I may extend this to its logical conclusion. I, as a christian, intend to do something, to kill someone. By your logic, as long as I am prepared to do the same to god, I am justified in my actions and the murder I commit can be considered a "christian" act.

Though, by being prepared to undertake the killing of god (ignoring the physical impossibility of such) I am in direct contradiction of a large swathe of christian beliefs, that many would argue are the basis for being a christian.

I mean, you are suggesting that your christianity is re-inforced by contemplating unchristian acts against god.

[Joe for Clark]

92. No - I am saying whatever you do - would you do that to god -

And if you say you are - by all means do so - and you will be judged accordingly.

Problem comes in if you are wrong -isn't it.

No dicotomy - simple right or wrong.

Ignoring the physical impossiblity - that would be a judgement not in the logic of the statement - tsk, tsk. No impossibility in a theoretical.

Joe

[ProSense]

72. This is not our finest moment:

Thursday, October 11, 2007

Living the Dream

By now, it's clear that "We don't torture" is going to be George Bush's equivalent to "I am not a crook" or "I did not have sexual relations with that woman"--an embarrassingly transparent, obviously untrue statement that the speaker never would have even made in the first place if he hadn't been obligated to deny something that everybody had already figured out was the case. In the earlier examples, you could at least understand the emotions behind the decision to go on TV and indignantly challenge these unfounded accusations that the sun is hot. In Nixon's case, it must have been deeply nerve-racking for a such a rigid, uptight old Quaker, one who had built his administration on promises of restoring "law and order" to a nation that had lost its moral compass, to start seeing cartoons of himself and his top aides in prison stripes in the paper every damn day. The very idea undermined everything that he wanted to believe about himself and everything his supporters wanted to believe about him. As for Clinton, for a free-wheeling, charismatic dude who had a well-documented taste for the ladies and a serious JFK complex, it must have been...well, anyway, I'm sure he didn't want to sleep on the couch. But George Bush is supposed to be our self-styled Mr. Grim Reality, President Bauer. Why the hell is he denying that we do what he must know his most hardcore supporters worship him for having the balls to do? Why doesn't he respond to questions about whether we torture by barking "Damn straight," and then pulling a former Gitmo resident's spleen out of his jacket pocket to gnaw?

<...>

Bush doesn't need to put on this show of being concerned about niceties. In the period after 9/11, when Everything Changed, there were two ways to go. The government and the media could have said, okay, this is scary, but it's not the end of civilization and doesn't have to be. The next few years aren't going to be as quiet as we obviously thought they were going to be, but there are a few intelligent people in the government mixed in with George's kid's playmates from Texas, so let's send the, um, president around the country to make speeches and sell bonds, and let the people who can handle this handle it. The other way to go was to let Bush have anything he wanted and do whatever he wanted while the rest of us stood around hissing, "Sure, he's a different kind of cop and he doesn't play by the book--but he gets results!" The media, which seems to have been suffering from some kind of collective attack of brain-disabling testosterone poisoning that it might have picked up from a hot tub party at Chris Matthews' house, enthusiastically opted for the latter. Bush has since complicated things by not getting any results that anyone would want covered in their evaluation report, but his remaining supporters and even many of his former supporters retain their enthusiasm for what people in Clint Eastwood movies call "unconventional methods". That's why some of them get off on Giuliani and what Jon Stewart has called his "9/11 tourette's", and why nobody at the Republican debating hall fell off their chair laughing or puking when Mitt Romney vowed to "double" Guantanimo. ("And what happened then? Why some people say that the Mormon's gonads grew three sizes that day.")

There will always be people are so weirdly impressed by juvenile displays of macho that cost the macho man nothing that they'll think back warmly to the time Bush sidled up to a mike and invited Iraqi insurgents to blow the shit out of American soldiers with the words "Bring it on" as proof that, yes, there were giants in those days. That's the real Bush, the "Who cares what you think" Bush, the Bush who entertained Tucker Carlson with a hilarious impression of Karla Faye Tucker whimpering for mercy from her Death Row cell (which Karla Faye Tucker didn't actually do, but then Bush didn't watch the TV interview he was making fun of--he's just intelligent enough to know that his lack of empathy is based on ignorance of the people he so easily scorns and so must be carefully guarded). If Bush went all the way with it, swaggering around the White House lawn in a muscle shirt, hawking loogies into the rose garden and kicking reporters in the nuts, his standing with what's left of his base would only harden, and his standing with the likes of Chris Matthews would probably shoot back up like a rocket. But some part of him feels--or is compelled to listen to the people around him who feel--that it's important to send the message that the part of him that sends soldiers to their deaths to scratch his Oedipal itch and authorizes waterboarding isn't the real him, that there's some other invisible part of himself that's so troubled and pained by the suffering he's caused and the disgrace of his presidency that he wouldn't touch himself with a ten-foot pole. This is, to put it gently, hard to believe. And the fact that he wants to publicly deny the inner badass that is so beloved of his real fans bespeaks a wimpiness that links him to his famously spine-free father, who really was the mirror image of his son, a civilized, not wholly unintelligent man who was always embarrassing us by insisting that he was really a pork-rind-eatin' country music listenin' macho wild man son of a bitch. The sad thing about Bush Junior's attempt to have it both ways is that it so completely dynamites his dirty-realist-bastard image that it leaves him with blood on his hands but with none of the glamour that's supposed to go with it; that Clint Eastwood act only works at all if you go all the way with it and stick the hell with it. But maybe that's why so many people, even now, profess to find Bush lovable. Barney Fife is a lot more lovable than Dirty Harry.

more

The land of optimism is in the dumps, but refuses to accept how it got there

History Will Not Absolve Us of This (extremely graphic).

[Joe for Clark]

79. If we choose to do the right thing- it could be one of our best

moments.

I think we will do the right.

Joe

[Gregorian]

73. Yes, but we have no right to be in the Middle East other than to catch but a few murderers.

I agree with you. I also have great faith in America.

Ordinarily people who want help ask for it. And nobody asked us to invade Iraq. I'm sure there were some in Iraq who wanted Saddam gone. But that is not why we're there.

And of course you already know that. I don't even need to say this stuff.

But other than those who caused 9/11, we are out of line over there.

It's about oil. Period. And especially now that we just got the report that we let Osama go yet again, with him right in our crosshairs.

Bush is really trying to rip America apart.

[ThomCat]

95. Sorry. That is nationalistic, flag waving B.S.

The US has been one of the biggest sponsors of terrorism for a long time, and we have a history of Imperial interventions in other countries that often result in attrocities.

You're drinking too much Koolade and believing the myths they taught you in elementary school.

[Joe for Clark]

96. Alright - you believe whatever you want.

No more posts on this account - OK?

Joe

[nadinbrzezinski]

114. Becuase we had the gall to call you on this nationalistic

bullshit?

[dysfunctional press]

101. bingo.

a country gets the government it deserves.

if america was HALF the country you seem to like to think it is, the cheney misadministration would never have been allowed to take office after their supreme court abetted coup.

[TwilightZone]

98. Excellent post, Joe.

And ignore the historical revisionists in this thread. It's amazing what people will invent in order to defend inaccurate assertions.

[nadinbrzezinski]

116. What historical revisionism

should we start with Iran Contra? For example?

[dysfunctional press]

100. if we go to war to set people free- explain tibet, burma and sudan...

for starters.

we go to war to protect our own interests, as well as to gain new territory and resources- just like every other country in history.

[Lilith Velkor]

106. Tell it to the Indians.

:bollocks:

[fishwax]

110. I don't see any evidence for that

and you seem to change the goalposts quite frequently. On the one hand, for example, you say we entered WWII to set people free, while elsewhere you point out that Germany's plans included controlling the U.S., suggesting we were acting not to free others, but to defend our own interests--which, as others have shown effectively enough, is more accurate.

But the whole line about exceptionalism, etc., is a handy line in order to get people to support one war or another ...

[Joe for Clark]

111. Why do you think two things can't be true??

Thanks for telling me what alert means.

Joe

[fishwax]

115. It's not that I think two things *can't* be true

Sure, two things can be true, but in this case, only the one has really been shown. The other is specious.

[Joe for Clark]

117. Opinion - I suppose.

[Contrary1]

119. Amen, Joe

Amen.

[NutmegYankee]

120. Second that n/t

[treestar]

125. Human nature is the same everywhere

We are no worse, no better. It's dangerous to think you are better than others inherently. Makes you willing to do things that you would not do if you thought you were just human, not superhuman.

People have a right to decide their own government and the U.S. can be supportive of people abroad wanting change for the better and fighting for it, but taking over ourselves and using force "for the good" is just wrong and may not always be for the good, intended or not.