Question: Who was responsible for Rumsfeld and Cheney's rise to power

[malaise]

Nixon or Ford? I'm listening to Barry Werth: '31 Days- The Crisis that Gave us the Government we have Today' on CSpan3.

[H2O Man]

1. Both.

In that order.

[malaise]

5. Thanks

but if Ford had not pardoned Nixon, wouldn't his cronies have scattered into political oblivion?

[H2O Man]

8. No.

I had posted a response about this issue at about the same time you were posting this. (See #4)

Both Cheney and Rumsfeld learned a great deal from the Nixon scandals, and our country continues to pay the price for it. But they were among a group that had distanced themselves from Nixon. What impeachment would have done is helped to establish the limits of executive powers expansions -- and it should be noted that the failure to impeach Reagan is what allowed for today's revolutionary presidency.

[KittyWampus]

10. If Clinton's JD and Congress had pursued Iran/Contra and BCCI- things would be different

and that's why I do NOT want Clinton(s) as POTUS again.

They won't prosecute or hold these war criminals and traitors accountable.

There won't be investigations.

The full scope won't be known.

[proud2BlibKansan]

2. Nixon

and if we had impeached him, we wouldn't have these bastards today.

[cali]

3. I don't see how you figure that

How would impeachment and conviction have stopped the careers of those two?

[BridgeTheGap]

6. You're right - they weren't involved in Watergate

Look at all the hacks involved in Iran-contra, some convicted and pardoned, who are still around in government positions.

[BridgeTheGap]

7. Try G.H.W. Bush (Sr.)

who appointed Cheney as Sec. of Defense.

[SpiralHawk]

13. "That information is protected by EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE. Smirk." - BFEE

"Only Made Members of our occult cabal are privileged to know such things." - BFEE

[bdamomma]

21. that is what it seems like the brotherhood of skull and bones

and no one rats on each other.

[H2O Man]

4. Neither of the two

would have been involved or directly impacted by Nixon's being impeached. They did both learn how to distance themselves from scandal during the watergate scandal. More, each of them became focused on the expansion of executive powers, and were fully aware that "war" allowed the best opportunity to do so.

Even if Nixon had been impeached, Ford would have still had the two in his administration. It's worth noting that without a war, both Rumsfeld and Cheney were considered failures in their bureaucratic roles. The myth that they were good at governing is easily exposed by examining their dismal performances in the Ford years.

It is also worth noting that Ford's strength was in the legislative branch, and both Rumsfeld and Cheney -- who each have had some service in this area -- were almost exclusively focused on gaining access for republican corporate interests in the executive branch. That led to their joining forces with the neoconservative movement.

[malaise]

12. Thanks H2O Man

:hi:

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. A lot of impeachment experts disagree with you

Impeachment puts the brakes on many careers.

[H2O Man]

28. Of those impeached......

and in Nixon's case, neither Rumsfeld nor Cheney were involved in the Watergate scandals. This is why, for example, that neither is mentioned in the entire Senate Watergate Report.

On edit: PS -- If you could list any impeachment expert who has theorized that impeaching Nixon would have had any impact on either Cheney or Rumsfeld's career, I'd appreciate it. Thanks!

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. David Swanson

I heard him say this at an impeachment forum.

And I heard ELizabeth Holzman (sp?) on AAR speak to this.

Then John Dean was here a month ago and he said it too. The reason we impeach is not so much to hold the president accountable, but to put the brakes on the careers of a lot of underlings. Dean said we absolutely should go after a couple "very evil" people in the Bush administration.

[bdamomma]

20. so if they did not impeach Nixon what makes us think these jerks

will impeach *? what a sorry state of affairs.

[H2O Man]

23. Nixon faced certain

impeachment, and thus resigned. Ford's pardoning him closed the door on post-resignation criminal convictions. Because there was zero chance of Nixon attempting to serve in public office again, congress did not go forward with post-resignation impeachment (which could only bar him from holding office in the future).

[L. Coyote]

9. Reagan and George Bush were not held to account on Iran-Contra. That is where

the ship of state veered off course. They gave us the secret government and its players are in power with this junta.

Everyone should watch Bill Moyers and his program on the Secret Government once a month until they are all in prison.

The Secret Government: The Constitution in Crisis, by Bill Moyers
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3505348655137118430

[sendero]

14. And now Bill ...

... spends his days riding around in golf carts with the chief architect.

[malaise]

18. I've always found that disturbing n/t

[malaise]

15. Valid point but the precedent was set by Ford n/t

I watched that -it was excellent

[shadowknows69]

11. Church Lady: "Could it be? SATAN?"

[tiptoe]

16. Election Fraud -- 100%

Americans elected Gore, then Kerry.

*Co defrauded democracy...treason.

[malaise]

19. That's true too n/t

[L. Coyote]

22. The Florida 2000 voter purge will go down as the gravest political crime in American history.

And, we need to continue educating the public on this one, lest there are no consequences in out time for such treason and subversion of democracy.

Maybe a special jail/ranch in Crawford TX where they can spend the rest of their lives replanting shrubs, living in tents, and wearing pink :rofl:

[bdamomma]

17. well Rumsfeld was Cheney's mentor, but Cheney had always

felt that all power should belong to one, and that is the President, Cheney is really fucked up.

[malaise]

24. What I don't get is that Ford prmoted these men

so I think he was even more responsible. I think I'll order this book.

[H2O Man]

25. Cheney

believed that all the power for foreign affairs should be found in the executive office, which is under the authority of the chief executive. It is also extremely important to study the Rumsfeld and Cheney efforts to organize the "shadow government" which would be used in case the US was involved in a nuclear war with the Soviet Union during the Cold War. This planning took place during the Reagan-Bush1 years. The plans were shelved during the Clinton era, but put back in play shortly after Bush2 took office. The plans, which were instituted on 9-11-01, involve an executive "committee" that includes members of the administration not subject to congressional oversight, and business leaders. It does not include the legislative or judicial branch of the federal government.

[bobthedrummer]

27. Primarily Ford.