Hey America--Can You Explain This?

[ProSense]

Friday, October 19, 2007

Hey America--Can You Explain This?

Brian Tamanaha

I had lunch today with a prominent German Constitutional scholar who was flabbergasted about something that I could not adequately explain.

He asked me how the candidate to become the top legal official of the U.S. government could say that he does not know whether water-boarding constitutes "torture" (as Judge Mukasey stated yesterday in his confirmation hearings). My colleague insisted that in Germany any person who uttered such a statement would be finished. He found it shocking that a person could say this in America and still become our Attorney General.

At first I was surprised at his genuine disbelief; and then I felt a bit ashamed that I did not also react with disbelief. I have become so cynical about the Bush Administration on the torture issue that this strikes me as ordinary stuff.

Seeing the astonishment through the eyes of an outsider made me realize how far we have deteriorated in our moral sense about the impropriety of torture. For Mukasey to say that he first must study whether water boarding is "torture" is a disgrace.

My German colleague wanted to know how the Democrats and the American people could allow such a person to be confirmed.

Here was my response:

<...>

Anyone who has a better explanation, please let me know.

Best comment:

Also debatable, and thus nothing that Judge Mukasey should condemn without all the facts before him:

the rack -- if turned just a teensy bit, it's actually quite relaxing!

starvation -- can be slimming!

sleep deprivation -- lets you catch up on paperwork!

forced nudity -- the hippies didn't mind it at Woodstock!

reading half-baked apologia for torture -- readers of Balkinization comment threads voluntarily subject themselves to it all the time, so how bad can it be?

[doublethink]

1. My comment would have been something along the lines of what Condi Rice said recently .....

something like this "The Armenian problem back in the early 1900's or something rather needs further study" blah blah blah" .... so if that Genocide/Holocaust can be denied .... this world is nuts, twisted. Arma-need-a-job has nothing on Cond. Through deceit they refuse to know me, the truth. Guess anything is open game to shoot down in our politics today.

War is Peace.
Freedom is Slavery.
Ignorance is Strength.

Whatever. Peace.

[tekisui]

2. America has changed.

The bar has been lowered by the criminals and their enablers. We should be ashamed of what we have become. It will take years of work to clean up the messes that have been made, and we may never regain any sense of dignity in the world.

[tavalon]

9. What happened in the last 7 years has pushed me to look more closely at

our history. I received the usual less than adequate and incredibly boring obligatory years of American History in the storehouse that is called public school education but it was insufficient. As I went back over our history I was led to the conclusion that the main problem isn't that we've changed but rather that we haven't changed much at all. Looking back at the way we treated the Native Americans and the slaves and our own citizens in the Salem Witch trials and during McCarthy's era of Communist red baiting and...........you get the idea. We've always had this tendency to be knee jerk, childish, easily led by fear tactics and just plain selfishly mean to anyone who gets in the way of what we want. Think of an unruly teenager and extrapolate to a country level. That's what America is, a petulant teenager, unwilling to be told what to do even when we have very little ability to figure out the right thing to do on our own.

Far too little has changed in the last 200+ years.

[stillcool]

11. my thoughts as well...

sometimes I wonder if there is some genetic defect within the big boys that play empire.

[fenriswolf]

3. hehe kind of funny

how forigners can point out exactly whats wrong with the US and us progressives and democrats need to have it pointed out to us. the fact that we fall for the rehtoric without attacking its roots seems to me to be a factor that none of us are safe from the brainwashing that is going on, from the outright lying to the fact that presidance for giving in a little bit at a time (ie, we dont torture, what we do is not considered torture, we do not use torture as it is defined, ok we do a couple things that could be considered torture if you define it like that, OK we do torture....happy?)

[1000evorlrak]

4. Well.....

It is very debatable as a technique for interrogation. There are better ways of extracting information if you need.

One definition of torture is inflicting serious bodily harm up to and including the pain of losing an appendage or near death. The technique used in water boarding doesn't cause pain. It causes the sensation of drowning, which may not necessarily be considered pain. At least that's lawyeresque explanation. Similar explanation for sleep deprivation and forced nudity, they don't involve physical pain per se.

[elf]

5. Are you serious or did you forget the sarcasm sign!!!!!!!!

:grr:

:mad:

[progpen]

12. There should not be a sarcasm tag on that post...

If we are going to debate torture we have to be realistic about what the individual techniques entail. If we cannot do that then we cannot expect the other side to take anything we say seriously. Going into a discussion saying that waterboarding involves intense pain would only weaken your stance.

We have to be the realists here. Only then can we set humane limits to what we will do to keep our country safe.

[ProSense]

14. "Only then can we set humane limits to what we will do to keep our country safe."

WTF? How about following the Geneva Conventions.

Honest debate: On torture: Bush condemns world 2003; world condemns Bush 2006

[ProSense]

15. You think this constitutes an honest debate?

Do you believe Bush belongs in jail too? Another gem.

[progpen]

17. Absolutely.

And your point is?

[ProSense]

19. Absolutely this is an honest debate? Or Bush belongs in jail with Pelosi? n/t

[progpen]

18. Or are you of the mind that...

we must support the Dem leaders even when they betray us?

[ProSense]

21. No mind set, just a little surprised at the expressed contempt for Pelosi and the

willingness to give Bush the benefit of the doubt on torture. At least that's how I'm reading this "honest debate" comment.

edited typo

[progpen]

23. Benefit of what doubt? AWOL signed off on torture.

IMHO waterboarding is torture. But in order to debate the Repugs on the subject you need to know what the individual methods entail. Saying "waterboarding is torture and any further discussion (like definitions) are not acceptable" is counter productive and is really no better than the Repugs.

[ProSense]

24. No one has to do that. It has been well-established for

the past 100 years by not only U.S. standards, but also the Khmer Rouge and others.

This debate is BS promoted by torture apologists!

[progpen]

25. End of discussion then.

[doublethink]

26. And you mention Angels in your comments sections of your profile? n.t.

[tavalon]

6. How about

were just fucking stupid? Too stupid to live, too mean to die.

[progpen]

8. BINGO!

What fabulous prize do we have for our winner?

[tavalon]

10. A one way trip to Canada, perhaps?

I'm trying to stick it out, but sometimes I wonder why.

[spanone]

7. for that alone mukasey MUST be rejected. WE TORTURE

the great sin of confirming gonzales cannot be repeated.

[porphyrian]

13. Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. - n/t

[baldguy]

16. Because the Atty Gen designate is a political hack?

[madeline_con]

20. " how far.. WE ... have deteriorated ...

...in OUR moral sense about the impropriety of torture. :wtf:


On edit: The guy's following in Gonzales' footsteps saying, "If it's torture, it's unconstitutional." Al was the one who wrote the book making torture NOT torture, and thumbing his nose at the Geneva conventions. Mukasey's just the standard bearer for more of the same.

[renie408]

22. Yeah, what do you mean 'we', paleface??I am pretty goddammed outraged over torture. n/t

[burythehatchet]

27. similarly, Mitt Romney would need to consult with his lawyers on

whether he can attack Iran without Congressional approval. Sad, sad creatures.

[ProSense]

28. Kick! n/t