If you are for Clinton, please understand she has the best chance of losing.

[King Coal]

She carries baggage for both sides. Please don't flame away, contrary to what is usually said. I am very passionate about this subject, as I love this country, and I honestly do believe that she is being pushed as the front runner because the republics know she can be beat. To be honest with you brothers and sisters, I am confused as to why this is not overwhelmingly apparent to everyone. The way she has voted on Iraq and Iran, and her lack of remorse for it makes me sick. We have so many better choices, we just can't afford to blow it now. I am very worried. Please think this through with me. And please don't flame, it just will waste time.

Thanks.

[JerseygirlCT]

1. I've been thinking this is the case for years

They've been pushing her for that long. And so long as they do, I'm very cautious.

Bottom line is that we MUST win. We MUST be able to take the country back. Another four years and ... well, I don't know that there would be anything left.

[youthere]

80. Interesting that the MSM is pushing her as the winner...

and who OWNS the media? Tin foil hat moment here.

[JerseygirlCT]

86. Oh I don't think it takes much of a hat to get there

Seems pretty darned obvious to me!

[bagrman]

119. MSM is owned and ran by who? Neocons. Voting machines are owned and ran by who?

Neocons. Who better to put up as the front runner, on the opposing team? The one that you can beat the easiest. NO SHIT Some Neocon think tank stooge just got the biggest piece of raisin pie for that idea.


Latr

[Toots]

2. We sure wouldn't want to waste YOUR time

But it is just fine to waste our time with such tripe..Get over yourself..

[King Coal]

3. Thanks Toots. I'll try to get over myself. But, I am right. Trust me.

[papau]

10. I'm not sure how you determine "best chance of losing" since she now polls less unfavorable than any

of her competitors (except perhaps Gore).

Indeed the statement in the Spring now seems proven - that as folks get to know her they like her more and more.

Check the latest polls on this topic - you will obviously be surprised! Things change! :-)

[King Coal]

14. Okay, I'll see if I can find the latest polls. But, I know I am right on this.

I also know that sounds conceited, but it is what it is.

[papau]

34. I did the looking for you - and you're right -I'm wrong - its the "I'll never vote for" poll that I

was thinking of that showed Hillary less unfavorable than the others (where others were GOP types).


Quinnipiac University national poll supports your idea as does Gallup below - even in New York
"
* Clinton tops McCain 54 - 37 percent; Thompson 58 - 30 percent and Romney 59 - 30 percent;
* Giuliani ties Obama 45 - 45 percent, and gets 45 percent to Edwards' 44 percent;
* Obama beats McCain 47 - 39 percent, Thompson 53 - 29 percent and Romney 54 - 28 percent;
* Edwards tops McCain 48 - 37 percent, Thompson 55 - 28 percent and Romney 57 - 24 percent.

"New York State is as blue as ever. Giuliani is 'America's Mayor,' but on his home turf, he trails Sen. Clinton by 11 points," said Maurice Carroll, Director of the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute. "Sen. Obama makes a splash when he comes in to New York. But Clinton trounces him among Democrats. Among Republicans, it's even more one sided. Against Giuliani there is no candidate whose support reaches double digits."

Clinton gets a 58 - 37 percent favorability rating and a 65 - 30 percent approval of the job she's doing as Senator. Favorability ratings for other contenders are:

* 55 - 38 percent for Giuliani;
* 49 - 28 percent for McCain;
* 54 - 20 percent for Obama;
* 50 - 26 percent for Edwards;
* 55 - 34 percent for Gore;
* Negative 22 - 28 percent for Romney;
* 25 - 24 percent for Thompson. "


Gallup:

new Gallup poll:

First off, it has now been more than a year since George W. Bush's job approval rating was above 40 percent in the Gallup poll. Bush is at 32 percent approval, 64 percent disapproval in the new survey; the last time Bush was above 40 percent was in a poll taken in mid-September 2006.

Second, Rudy Giuliani's favorable rating has dipped below 50 percent for the first time ever. He is at 49 percent favorable, 39 percent unfavorable in the new poll. That's a significant drop from a few weeks ago, when he was at 54 percent favorable, 30 percent unfavorable. In August, he was at 59 percent favorable, 27 percent unfavorable.

Fred Thompson has still not made an impression on a significant part of the voting public. In the new poll, he is at 32 percent favorable, 30 percent unfavorable – that unfavorable number is up six points since early this month – with 23 percent saying they've never heard of him and 15 percent saying they have no opinion.

Mitt Romney's unfavorable rating still outweighs his favorable rating. He is at 26 percent favorable, 34 percent unfavorable in the new survey. And John McCain is steady at 46 favorable, 37 unfavorable, somewhat recovered from his summer swoon.

Hillary Clinton's favorable rating has been slowly ticking up and is now the equal of Barack Obama's. She is at 53 percent favorable, 44 percent unfavorable in the new poll. Beginning in August, her favorable ratings have gone from 47 to 49 to 51 to 53, while her unfavorables have gone from 48 to 46 to 44.

Obama still has significantly lower unfavorables than Clinton, with 53 percent favorable, 32 percent unfavorable.


So what you are saying about "unfavorable" appears correct and what I was thinking of was the "I will never vote this person" polling

ABC/Wash Post 9/27-30

Clinton 41%
Rudy 44%
McCain 45%
Thompson 54%
Romney 57%

[superkia]

124. So if we believe the polls, the democrats all suck when compared...

to a republican. Well except for Clinton, by the polls she is the ONLY democrat that will likely win? I don't think so. If someone calls the average American that doesn't follow politics and says who would you vote for, I think most will take the name they know without giving it a second chance, so they can get on with their lives. I believe Clinton's name alone would win hands down in a poll and polls mean nothing to people that look at the facts.

Fuck the bullshit polls!

[papau]

128. It is indeed still early and name recognition helps - and for a large slice of the votes no decision

is made until the last 10 days before an election.

But primary voters tend to be up on the names - those polls about leading primaries may well be more "correct" than the national polls.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

71. I'm The Smartest And Best Looking Guy In The Room....I Have The Biggest Package...

Women swoom over me...Men want to be my friends so they can get my seconds...


I also know that sounds conceited, but it is what it is.

:sarcasm:

By the way, you left yourself open...

[defendandprotect]

83. Polls were ver y deceptive re Dean/tops and Kerry/bottom . . ..

[papau]

129. very true - as I recall Kerry was in single digits in the polls in Iowa n/t

n/t

[Enrique]

4. do you think anyone hasn't heard this a million times already?

obviously the people who support Clinton have already processed, probably rejected, that argument.

[King Coal]

11. Well, they need to review.

[ShortnFiery]

5. Nope we're going to board that DLC Nominee train again and get our political asses

handed to us a THIRD (3x) time. The only silver lining is that perhaps THEN the democratic party as a whole will unite to purge the Pro-Corporate DLC from our "big tent" over to the Moderate Republicans - where they GENUINELY belong - as per the 1970s. Goldwater Girls go home!

[defendandprotect]

85. Let's get rid of the DLC and ALL DLC candidates . . . Hillary first . . .

[cynatnite]

6. Actually, I think ones like Paul and Gravel have the best chance of losing...

that would include Kucinich, too. Kucinich is the best choice, but he has a far better chance of losing than Hillary, IMO.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

7. yes every hrc fan should change their mind because it makes you sick.

which ofcourse has nothing to do with whether or not she can win the general election/

[King Coal]

9. No, the reason is that we can't afford to take a chance.

We just can't afford it this time.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

12. every candidate is a chance we take. no one is a sure win.

[King Coal]

27. I think Richardson or Edwards represent sure wins. I really do.

Thanks for toning down the flaming, lion.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

31. i am an edwards supporter myself. i am warming to him. i still dont think that hrc

will lose the GE if she won the primary. i just like edwards policies on poverty more.

poverty is the root cause of every social ill imo.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

100. Because Richardson Thinks So Well On His Feet

Russert ate him for lunch on MTP and his opinion that homosexuality was a choice in a debate sponsored by the Human Rights campaign was so charming... Gee, I guess we sit down at eight or nine years old and decide if we like boys or girls better or equally...

Oh, he was a big supporter of the Iraq invasion...Google it... Until it became a political loser...

[Deep13]

8. Lesson of '00 and '04: the packaging is more important than the product.

I don't really have a preference in this field. I do think, however, that the Clinton campaign machine is pretty much unstoppable. Even candidate has something the Rs can harp on. If he doesn't have anything, they'll just make something up. The real question is how well equipped is a candidate to manage those attacks and counter-punch in response?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

13. i agree. gore/kerry were destroyed because of packaging not product.

clintons know how to package.

[King Coal]

17. Well, then, that laugh must just be a bad example.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

18. her laugh is a tiny tiny problem and she will rectify. is that the best you can do?

[King Coal]

21. No, I agree that is a tiny, tiny, problem. But it is and example of packaging.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

23. its very early yet and things will change. there are legit reasons for people to not like hrc

but not winning the general elections isnt a very good reason.

if thats the case, we should NEVER support kucinich.

[defendandprotect]

89. Presumably, both Gore & Kerry won their elections . . . .. probably simply for being NOT Bush ----

However, I do agree that the campaigns were badly run -- too little response -- too weakly ---

In fact, Kerry's campaign manager had lost every campaign he'd run -- !!!

Whaaat --- ????

[ShortnFiery]

16. Yes, fellow Democrats ...

Welcome to the MACHINE ... but be careful of what you wish for. :scared:

Welcome my son, welcome to the machine.
Where have you been? its alright we know where you've been.
You've been in the pipeline, filling in time, provided with toys and
scouting for boys.
You bought a guitar to punish your ma,
And you didn't like school, and you know you're nobody's fool,
So welcome to the machine.

Welcome my son, welcome to the machine.
What did you dream? its alright we told you what to dream.
You dreamed of a big star, he played a mean guitar,
He always ate in the steak bar. he loved to drive in his jaguar.
So welcome to the machine. ... Pink Floyd

[leftynyc]

67. She's a tough broad

which is very high praise from one New Yorker to another. She'll bring a gun to a knife fight (which is what we need as proven in '04).

Also, if Giuliani is the candidate for the pubs, he's a nasty SOB and that will not play well with women when used against another woman. I remember when she ran against Lazio and the second he came on too strong, he lost that election. Women said he reminded them of their "first" husband. Combined with the crappy treatment he gave Donna Hanover in announcing their divorce at a press conference and his flagrant whoring around during their marriage (I'm not sure the rest of America knows all of the women involved - YET), I think her chances are very good against him. He'll do something that will be considered "too mean". He can't help himself - it's who he is which is fine in NY, but middle America will not like it.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

15. That's EXACTLY What The CORPORATE WHORE MEDIA Wants!!

They want a close horserace.

They DO NOT want an Al Gore Landslide.

They want to be able to spend 8 months ATTACKING A CLINTON, so that we get another 52%-48% race. An election which still has the chance of being MANIPULATED through FRAUD.

I still think the Democratic nominee will eventually win, but the MEDIA WHORES want a close enough race, that they can keep people focussed for the next year.

[King Coal]

19. Yeppers, kind of like the sports book boys.

[Horse with no Name]

20. especially if you think about how Rush started

his ENTIRE schtick was criticizing Bill Clinton(and dumb me thought he would simply go away when Clinton was gone), yet he lays fairly low on Hillary now. You gotta wonder why.

[King Coal]

22. Good point.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

25. Have You Ever Seen So Many repubs Happy About A Clinton?

Do you honestly think that things will stay that way once she becomes the "official" nominee?

They're keeping their powder dry, but Unlike Democrats, they intend to use it.

[LibDemAlways]

48. The other day on Tucker rw shill

Cliff May called Hillary a "Vaginal-American." That's the kind of crap they're storing up. It's going to be nasty and vile beyond belief. If she's nominated a torrent of accusations and just plain hate will be unleashed before the last piece of confetti hits the floor in the convention hall. Whether she can withstand it is something else, but I have no doubt at all it's coming and it's going to be brutal.

[TornadoTN]

50. She will withstand it - they did it to Bill in 1992

She's no stranger to this and knows exactly whats coming. Most people will get tired of the brutal smears and jabs at her - just like they did during the Clinton years and it only expanded his support across the board.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

55. She's NOT Bill, And This Is NOT 1992. nt

[defendandprotect]

90. And remember, in '92, we had a strong a challenge from Perot splitting the vote ---

[Carolina]

127. EXACTLY!

[Laurab]

131. Bill had CHARISMA and great people skills.

He was and is a likeable guy. Hillary, not so much. She will get the repuke vote out like no other candidate could. The repukes don't even like their own candidates, and would probably stay home UNLESS Hillary is the nominee.

I agree with the OP - I don't think she can win the general - she is the repugs DREAM candidate.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

73. Sometimes I Think Tucker As A Vagina But That Would Be Demeaning To Women

DSB

[Froward69]

139. sometimes I am pretty sure

Hrc has a penis. Thats not demeaning at all! thought that off and on for 15 years now.

[leftynyc]

68. Maybe because he knows

he's going to have to defend a thrice married, whoring sleaze and doesn't want to go too far out on a limb saying stuff that will blow back. He may be an asshole, but he's no dummy.

[KoKo]

24. You nailed it...

[SammyWinstonJack]

42. ...

:thumbsup: :banghead:

[JerseygirlCT]

88. Did you hear Matthews just the other night (pretty sure it was him)

talking about how he thinks this might turn out to be a really close race again?

I just about choked. Wishing WILL make it so, unfortunately, when the wishers control the media.

You're completely right, too: they want a close one. I don't even so much think they care about the outcome as much as the horse-race. It's all about ratings. A landslide doesn't have people tuning in.

[defendandprotect]

92. Maybe he heard something about the "black boxes" . . . ??????

as far as I can see the GOP hasn't won a race in 30 years . . .

We are VOTESCAMMED ---

[JerseygirlCT]

106. Though my family rolls their eyes at me and changes the subject

quickly every time it's brought up, I agree with you.

The last two elections were the result of broad election fraud. No doubt. Which is terribly frightening as we get into the next one.

[defendandprotect]

113. It's more than 2000 and 2004 . . . look up VOTESCAM . .. a book by Jim & Ken Collier . . .

I've posted the info here --
the book is on line -- you can read bits of it -- or all of it --
Here's a LINK ---
http://www.constitution.org/vote/votescam__.htm

Basically, they ran for office in late 1960's . . . and in looking for their results . . .
which they were suspicious about, they discovered the whole computer scam back then!!!

Tracked it for 25 years -- !!!
Finally, the book ---

I didn't find the book until 2002 --

Interesting, cause I then heard out of print/Amazon.com . .. it's not --
then I paid $26 for a copy/paperback -- on site I think it's still only $12 for a new copy

Then I asked my library to get a copy of it --
One very significant page was missing in almost an unnoticeable way --!!!
I brought it to the librarian's attention and made sure that it would be replaced.

[JerseygirlCT]

114. Thanks for that. nt

[cali]

26. Sorry. You're fueled by emotion, not logic.

I can't stand the thought of Clinton in the WH, for a host of reason, but by any analysis, she stands a good chance of winning if she's the nominee. She's renning a hell of a campaign and polling results reflect that.

[King Coal]

29. No, cali, it is solid logic. Logic fuels the emotion.

[cali]

30. go into GDP and take a look at the latest polls. n/t

[King Coal]

37. No, you go in there and look. Gad, you're bossy.

:hi:

[LoZoccolo]

38. Fine, post all the deluded threads you want about polls you won't look at. n/t

[cali]

39. I'm just holding you to what you said upthread which was:

Okay, I'll see if I can find the latest polls. But, I know I am right on this.
I also know that sounds conceited, but it is what it is.
Lettin' the cat outta the bag is a whole lot easier than

[King Coal]

45. Yeah, but you are kinda bossy, cali. LOL!

I'm just sayin'.

[cali]

53. I confess. That much is true. n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

79. Please Don't Confuse The Poster With Facts

Up thread he implied he was the smartest guy on the board...

[Nia Zuri]

59. She looks golden now, but just you wait until the general election

will make what they did to Kerry look like playing footsies

[AmBlue]

130. That's EXACTLY right!!

They are gonna turn their blowtorches on her and it ain't gonna be pretty. I don't understand why Hillary supporters DO NOT GET that that's why the repigs want her in right now. And that that's why all our CORPORATE MEDIA is pumping her so.

[EV_Ares]

28. I agree, if Clinton is the nominee, another republican in the WH whether that

be a member from the republican or Hillary as she will continue on the large corporate ways and will continue GWB's war.

[disndat]

32. I agree

Guiliani is the KKKarl Rove Republicans nominee of choice. In other words Guiliani has the military industrial complex behind him. He's the most idiotic of all the Republican candidates and yet he is way ahead. What does that tell us? The moneyed RW needs another idiot to shill for them like Bush and they will steal the next election, as in '00 and '04. That's why Gore is the only candidate strong enough to lead the Democrats to take back the WH. I still have hopes that something will happen to bring this about. Maybe a Gore/Edwards deal of some kind.

[defendandprotect]

95. GOP will try to trash her from the first moment to the last . . . and even if she wins . . ..

they will try to have her so thoroughly weakened that she won't be able to act with authority ---

BUT . .. THIS WILL BE TRUE NO MATTER WHAT DEMOCRAT IS RUNNING ---

I just think they have a large hope chest of stuff left over from Bill --
and it will be Bill, Bill, Bill -- all the way.

[XemaSab]

126. As Jim Hightower says,

"When you run a Republican against a Republican, the Republican wins every time..." :P

[Dorian Gray]

33. I see your point

and I agree with you for the most part. I do think that she has the best "name" recognition, and that the association with her husband will bring back memories of happier times. Hence, I think she has the best chance of losing... and perhaps the best chance of winning, also. She's so polarizing, though. People get so up in arms about her. But, there are a whole slew of americans who aren't so politically involved who probably would vote for her because it would be reminiscent of happier times. (Pre-Iraq, cheaper fuel prices, no mortgage issues, and the hope for universal health care.)

[mdmc]

35. I really wish that this was true

I wish that someone could beat her. I don't care if it is in the primary, or, frankly, the general.
I've been told over and over by local dems that she can't be beat and that in NYS, no one will stand up against her and support another democratic candidate (except for the Gravel or Kucinich die hards).
I would love to see her humbled.

That being said, I can't think of any way, at all, that she will not win and take office on 1-20-09.

She is a shoe in and no one can stop her.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

94. Even A Rethuglican?

"I wish that someone could beat her. I don't care if it is in the primary, or, frankly, the general."

[mdmc]

121. well I am not that hardcore

i don't want to be ts here.

[EV_Ares]

36. Why Do We Allow The Repukes To Pick Our Candidate?

Regarding this thread & comments on the republicans want Hillary or are afraid of Hillary I think is not important. If Hillary is the best candidate for democrats, then she should be our nominee. If Obama is the best candidate, the same. I don't care what the republicans want or don't want. I just don't want to fall into their trap of guiding the democrat primary races or picking our candidate for us.

Hillary certainly is not my choice but that is because I think she is pretty much the same old Washington establishment and she is not much different than some republicans. She is a corporate water carrier.

I prefer Obama, Edwards, Dennis and yes, I know Dennis will probably not be our nominee but I prefer him by far over Hillary.

[bdamomma]

40. they (neo con pigs) are setting her up for a fall.

I like her, but not as President.

[mondo joe]

41. I don't share your beliefs. NT

[King Coal]

46. You have to.

[mondo joe]

47. But if I beieve YOU how can I also beieve the DUers who say she was selected by the

RW and MSM to WIN?

Oh battling conspiracy theories, how can I decide which of you to believe?

[Froward69]

140. Havent you noticed the silence from the Right...

Thats proof enough to me she will be sliced to pieces when the time is right. bill bill bill is just a bit too obvious I think. I am unsure what it is but they have a trap set for her, she will walk into it sure as the sun rises.

[youthere]

84. .

:spray:

caught me off guard with that.

[countingbluecars]

43. I fear you are right.

The South especially will be a problem for Clinton.

[leftynyc]

72. Southerners are going to be very torn if it comes

to Hillary vs Rudy - both New Yorkers and he has the morals of an alley cat.

[defendandprotect]

97. Well, the South hasn't yet set women free . . . so doubt they'll be looking for a feminist --- ???

[leftynyc]

108. Maybe they wont be looking for a feminist

but they may also not want to vote for a bullying whoremonger. More a vote against something than for it.

[defendandprotect]

111. Yes . . . it would be unlikely Hillary would be their pick ---

especially for those retards who would see her as a "bullying whoremonger" . . .

Would they even know how to vote -- ?

[leftynyc]

115. I'm a bit lost on your post

I was calling Rudy a bullying whoremonger (which happens to describe him to a T) - I've never heard any noise about Hillary cheating, have you?

[defendandprotect]

123. I got lost on yours . . . thought you were calling Hillary "bullying whoremonger" . . .. !!!

[leftynyc]

133. LOL - okay let me try again

While many southern women may have doubts about Hillary, I think they will have bigger problems with Rudy - he's a plain old mean New Yorker who's (whose?) reputation with women in his life is far from stellar. I doubt they have heard all of it - a cheater who shit all over the mother of his children (who barely speak to him and probably will not campaign for him) is just the start. The New York press is salivating at having all the dirt brought up again. They did all the investigating and now the whole country is going to be reading about it (if he's the nominee). This is not a gracious man and when I think of how bush convinced everyone he was just a nice, everyday guy, I can't help but think Rudy is never going to pull that off. Push him hard enough and he'll blow up - that's just the way he is. Hillary (or whoever the nominee is) will just have to stand back and watch.

[defendandprotect]

142. Think we're clearer now . . ..

My first message wasn't specifically re Southern female voters ....
if anything, it was more directed re Southern male voters who would react negatively to a feminist.
Besides Hillary being a DEMOCRAT.

Now, the other basis of my comment was that PRESUMABLY female voters in the South -- no matter who they may wish to vote for -- may still be an intimidated minority in the South. On the other hand, maybe enough of them have the gumption to even vote for a Democrat . . . I don't know. Don't recall seeing any analysis on this question.

And -- one of the commentators noted today that less than 44% of males will vote Democratic. Can't think of the commentators name; she's on with MacLaughlin.

I would expect that the South is changing to more progressive ideas in reaction to Bush,
but there seems to be questions about that --
I've read that Northerners who have relocated to the South often join with the conservatives in voting for Repubicans . . . I don't know.

An internet friend in North Carolina tells me that there are lots of military areas and it is all right-wing. Of course, the MIIC has recently expanded and where it does, it will bring right-wing thinking... IMO

I guess I block everything about Guiliani -- I'm an old New Yorker and just hated everything he did to NYC -- including 9/11!!!!

[leftchick]

44. in addition many democrats just will not vote for her

me included.

[TornadoTN]

49. See 00, 04, for your crystal ball reading

Of course it's your right to not vote, but I'll certainly take our worst candidate over ANY Republican candidate every day of the week.

There is a clear difference between our most right-aligned Democrat and that of the most left-aligned Republican candidate. That's enough for me to support her if she is the nominee.

[leftchick]

51. Gore was not a warmonger

Kerry was not a warmonger. Clinton is a warmonger. You underestimate how many democrats and independents are sick of war and loathe her for it.

[EV_Ares]

54. I think you said it all right there. I mean hell if she made a mistake

& voted for the Iraq war. Why did she just turn around and do the same thing for Bush on the Iran vote.

[leftchick]

56. her IWR was no mistake

she has been in on the neocon/aipac plan for the ME since day one.

[cali]

60. You stand a very good chance of being sadly disappointed.

What a shame.

[Le Taz Hot]

52. I'd normally agree with you and did

for awhile, but, the Republicans have such a shit line-up, SHE (not we) might just have lucked out and will probably win the General. I can't see the fundies going overwhelmingly for Giuliani or Romney and McCain is down so low he might as well be the next one to drop out. The fundies are split and there are war-weary Republicans everywhere.

The counter to that, of course, is that anti-war progressives will also not vote for Hillary and she can't make it up with Republican voters as she has too many negatives with them.

Either way it's going to be an interesting election night.

[defendandprotect]

102. the GOP has more than a "shit lineup" . . . they have an overall stench -- they're BUSHED ----

The GOP will be looking for garbage to make Dems look bad --
evidently they had a good start when they began to politicize the DOJ and wiretapped --
and I think we have to presume for political reasons.

Hillary has been thru it before . . . she knows . .. and she was silenced in good part because of it.

Clinton was depowered almost immediately after election -- beginning with the 39%? election -- was that his figure?

And then, gays in the military --

Will the MSM be as out of control as they were then . . . ???

I think they follow the corporate-nod .... and the corporate-nod right now seems to be suggesting . .. change horses ... from GOP to Dems.

[Rhythm and Blue]

57. This, of course, despite the head-to-head polls that show her as having the best shot of winning. nt

[Nia Zuri]

58. The election will be all about Bill they have a lot of dirt on him

after his white house years. Photos and videos of his daliances, who knows maybe even audio. Bill is just incorrigible! She would be the best opponent for Giuliani because Bill's affairs would cancel out any anti-family negatives Giuliani carries. Believe me. Hillary is the opponent they most want to run against. She will be portrayed as a pathetic woman who can't even control her own man. BTW, apparently Hillary is still pretty muchin denial about Bill.

[mondo joe]

61. "They" do?

Source?

[Nia Zuri]

62. Yep, they do. Source is an "insider"

[mondo joe]

64. Oh, you're close to GOP "insiders"?

And you can't back up your claim?

[Nia Zuri]

65. No not a GOP insider, one of her opponent's. camp

Apparently, this is pretty much common knowledge. It wasn't passed along to me as any big deal. Just something everyone kind of knows. sorry, I don't have a link or anything. Call it gossip or hearsay, but it certainly has the ring of truth to me. Are you finding this hard to believe?

[mondo joe]

66. I find unsupported accusations to be smears. NT

[Nia Zuri]

69. I'm sorry, it wasn't my intention to smear. I was just supporting the OPs

point of view with some information I had. I could care less about the Clinton's personal life, it shouldn't make any difference to anyone, but unfortunatley it will to Mr or Mrs. mainstream American (at least some of them). I'm just sayin'

[leftynyc]

75. So they're going to punish Hillary for Bill's

dalliances (if your "insider" actually has this info) but will turn around and vote for Rudy - a man who openly cheated on his wife with several women and announced his divorce in a press conference. That's your argument? As women make up 51% of the population, who do you think they'd rather vote for in that case?

[Nia Zuri]

82. Good point there.

I don't think it will give those who have concerns about Rudy an "excuse" to ignore his philandering because Bill did it too. It just kind of neutralizes that as an issue for the "family first" types and heightens the perceived positive that Rudy carries of tough on terrorism. Rudy and Hillary are both pro-choice & Northerners so they're cancelled out on that too. That leaves Rudy's so called "toughness" and "concervative credentials" as the tie-breaker. I'm not saying it makes sense, but hey, don't overestimate the rationality of the American people. I still don't understnad why they think Rudy Giuliani and Bush were "tough on terror" when it hapened on their watch, should have been the opposite if you ask me.

[leftynyc]

112. People do not like a hypocrite

Watching Rudy turing himself into a pretzel trying to convince people he's a conservative is laughable. All people really know is his 9/11 face (and I will give him credit for calming a traumatized city those first couple of days). Do you think people know Judi was not his first affair, that he courted and ran on the LIBERAL ticket as mayor, that he marched in every gay pride parade NY had, that he spoke at NARAL conventions as a special supporter, that his children barely speak to him, he supported abortion rights including late term (and a hundred other things just like these). The real Christian conservatives have yet to hear the real story and they will not like it. We just need the women - and I think she'll get a far amount of them.

And as far as the 9/11 hero stuff, just wait until the firefighters air their ads against him. You ain't seen nothing yet and wont until he is the nominee. He wont know what hit him because he thinks just because New Yorkers turned a blind eye, the rest of the country will - he's hugely mistaken about that.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

74. The Americans Are Going To Learn That Bill's A Poon Daddy...

Really, for the first time... Right after water is , errr wet...

[applegrove]

63. She is the best known and it will be harder to swiftboat her because

of that.

[Liberalynn]

70. Face it the Repukes are going to go after any candidate

our side puts up. Look what they did to John Kerry, a war hero! So I am not letting fear of their response determine who I choose to vote for in the primaries. Not saying I am for Hillary at this point, I haven't made up my mind yet! All I'm saying is I'm not going to let what the RePukes say influence me one way or the other. I'll decide on my own.

What matters is who will fight back the hardest and the strongest against the pukes attacks whether thats Hillary or one of the others.

Its got to be someone whose willing to go at the other side no holes barred and fight tooth and nail, period. If we have a weakness in elections, it is that too often the candidates on our side, haven't been willing to defend themselves or throw stuff back at the other side harder. Forget being a gentleman or lady, just come out swinging.

I just hope who ever the nominee is that he/she will be willing to do that.

[Nia Zuri]

76. Hillary will fight back and fight back hard. I've no doubt about that

She knows how the game is played and she is going to be a formidable opponent to anyone the GOP throws out there. However, she has the greatest vulnerabilities as well. Hell, they'll probably drag out the old Vasser college lesbian garbage. And that is not a smear. I'm being realistic. I think we all know how vicious and nasty the GOP will get. They are definitely keepng their powder dry once she gets the nod, watch out!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

81. The " Hillary's A Lesbian" Meme

Did she stop being a lesbian long enough to have a torrid affair with Vince Foster?


:sarcasm:


That's the problem with anti-Clintonism... It becomes contradictory like most forms of phobias...It reminds me of anti-semitism...Stalin hated Jews because they felt they were money grubbing capitalists and Hitler hated them because he thought they were communsits...


As for Hillary, I'm not worried about her at all... When it comes to hardball politics she's Michael Corleone with a uterus... I pity her opponents...

[Nia Zuri]

91. You know and I know how F'ing stupid people are, look how successful gay marriage was in '04

Doesn't matter if it's true or not. There are enogh ignorant uinformed homophopic people who would find those allegations reason enough to rail against her whether her election would benefit them personally or not.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

96. 90% Of Voters Are Apolitical... They Vote Like It's American Idol Or Survivor

They will just remember the 90's were a happier time and will vote to go back to it...

As to fending off attacks, Ms. Clinton can play hardball politics with the rest of them...When it comes to hardball politics she's Michael Corleone with a uterus...On his best days Rudy is Sonny and on his worst day he's Frado...

[SIMPLYB1980]

77. Yawn.

[NewJeffCT]

78. I'm NOT a Hillary supporter, but

The thing I like best about her is that she's been put through a meat grinder and dragged through the mud for almost 16 years now and is still the front runner for the nomination. If they had any more dirt on her or Bill, it would have come out in the 90s, or during her two runs for the Senate.

If they do pull out some new bullshit out of their asses, she is already prepared to handle it better than anybody else running. John Kerry, a decorated combat veteran, wilted in his first month in the limelight. It took Gore months to get going after being labeled a pathological liar. Dukakis similarly wilted in the limelight when Bush Sr. started with his attacks.

I will qualify my post that I would support Gore if he ran for president, and if forced to make a choice among the Democrats that have currently announced (Dodd, Kucinich, Obama, Edwards, Richardson, Biden, Gravel), she might be my last choice on that list.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

87. I Agree

Anybody that says she isn't the toughest, most disciplined, most tenacious campaigner in the race is a liar or a fool...

[Hamlette]

122. I agree (mostly) with Jeff

When I look at 2000 and 2004 and even earlier, Dems got beat by the wimp factor. Kerry and Gore couldn't stand up to the ring wing crazies. Dean, who I thought had it in him to do it, got beat by "the scream".

I don't see that happening to Hillary. She is a street fighter and knows how to hit back. Bill is the best politician of this generation and he isn't gonna let her go down. (No, that's not sexist, I feel the same way about how I would scrape for my hubby.)

What I don't agree with is that she is my last choice of Jeff's list. I think Gravel would make as bad a president as Nader would have. A little wacky, sometimes makes sense, but still, a little wacky. Not only that, if I'm going to pick a candidate who can win (good candidate vs good policy) she might top my list. Can any of you see Dodd or Richardson or any of the others beating back Chris Wallace like Bill did? I can see Hillary doing it. He answer to Timmy's "gotcha" on torture was spot on. Tough as nails. Just what Russert deserved.

I'm warming to her not because I like her policies but because I think she can fight. With mean, dishonest people like Rudy (or any republican) that has to be a HUGE concern.

[incapsulated]

93. Ah, another Nostrodamus

Who will disappear if she is elected.

[Nia Zuri]

98. No one hopes these predictions are wrong more that me..

She's not my first choice, but I would be dancing in the streets if she were elected. I do think she will get the nod and that has me terrified, because they are ready. I know she is tough as hell but they are going to get real personal and they may have some embarrassing shit that she is unaware of and unprepared to handle

[defendandprotect]

103. Corporate money is moving with her... MIIC doesn't hate her.... MSM will also move to her ---

That's not to say the GOP won't be trying for Guiliani -- he seems to be the insider on 9/11 and probably their preferred choice for keeping all the dead bodies buried -- coverups going.

But the $ is now riding on Dems -- specifically on Hillary --
that will protect her -- IMO -- from a total MSM onslaught ---

[DemocratSinceBirth]

104. What You Miss Is How Tough She Is...

I can't descrbe how tough she is because it's hard to describe how tough she is without using sexist language...She might be the toughest politician this nation has ever seen...

When it comes to being politically tough she makes Genghis Khan look like a sissy...

[incapsulated]

107. You know

Any Democratic nominee would be open to this.

But no democratic nominee will be more prepared and willing to fight hard and dirty.

In a knife fight, I put my money on the Clintons. There is almost no dirty laundry about them that hasn't been aired and I'm sure they are braced for anything.

Remember, the repukes are in disarray and Rove probably won't even be involved this time.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

109. I'd Prefer To Have Rove Involved...

Kicking his ass would make it sweeter...

[incapsulated]

110. Well....

I think if Hillary wins, the nightmare of every Hillary hating right wing thug....

I mean think about Limbaugh's audience. Their heads will explode.

:D

[mondo joe]

125. I couldn't agree more. Theres a dirty fight coming - I want our toughest and smartest

fighter out there.

[leftynyc]

135. That's because in a knife fight

the Clintons will bring a gun. There will not be a "wimp" factor here.

[leftynyc]

134. I think it's in the dems favor

This is still a sexist society and women are not going to sit back and watch Rudy (if he's the nominee) trash another women. I know Rudy - he wont be able to help himself about going too far and it will hurt him. Plus Judi is not an asset in that regard. That article in Vanity Fair laid her out and after the uproar over Michael Vick, a person who sold medical equipment used on live puppies is not going to sit well. Judy is one of his biggest detriments and I think that will matter - plus she'll remind every woman who has been cheated on that it was a woman like Judy who destroyed their marriage and broke up their family.

[JuniperLea]

99. I've always thought this was so

Thanks for saying it so well.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

101. Yeah ...His Argument Was So Full Of Facts And Figures...

It would get you a D in American Government 101 at a rural community college...

[MethuenProgressive]

105. So nominate proven loser Edwards or deer-in-the-headlights Obama?

I'm in favor of progress, and that means starting by winning back the White House.
Milquetoast Johnny Edwards and greenhorn Barack Obama just aren't capable of
fighting, and winning, a national campaign against the Right Wing Noise Machine.

Flame away.

[Skidmore]

116. K&R

Absofreakinglutely!

[Poppa]

117. HRC is not a progressive

King Coal: Thanks for posting this very truthful and accurate description of HRC. She is a DLC backed candidate and if somehow nominated by our party, the repubs will be re-energized and rally behind whatever asshole they nominate and will probably win the election. Four to eight more years of those neo-fascists in the Office of the Presidency and we won't have much a country, or perhaps a world, to worry about. She needs to be stopped before she destroys what is left of the Democratic Party's ideals. Nothing personal but she is certainly not on the same page as the vast majority of the members of the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party. No more DLC members in positions of power.

[Perry Logan]

137. That's funny. Progressives seem to think she's a progressive. You'd better talk to these people...

The following are polls from progressive groups, rating Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, on how often they vote for progressive issues. For each group, http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/011142.php

Clinton Vs. Barack Obama (progressivepunch)
Overall Progressive Score: 92% 90%
Aid to Less Advantaged People at Home and Abroad: 98% 97%
Corporate Subsidies 100% N/A
Education, Humanities and the Arts 88% 100%
Environment 92% 100%
Fair Taxation 97% 100%
Family Planning 88% 80%
Government Checks on Corporate Power 95% 97%
Healthcare 98% 94%
Housing 100% 100%
Human Rights & Civil Liberties 82% 77%
Justice for All: Civil and Criminal 94% 91%
Labor Rights 91% 91%
Making Government Work for Everyone, Not Just the Rich or Powerful 94% 90%
War and Peace 80% 86%

[MODemocrat]

118. Since I don't hate the other candidates, it doesn't matter that much to me

Hillary's my favorite,and no one will change my mind; However, I could live with any of the others who are strong enough to win. I've been listening to all the bull crap about the Clintons for 15 years now; most of it is rheoteric, some of it may be partially true. Hell, I'm not blind, besides we won't have God running on any of the national tickets; nearly everyone has some "baggage" and a skelton or two in their closet. Go help the Republicans did up some dirt on the others, if that's what you like.

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :boring: :boring: :boring:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

120. I Can't Wait To See The Clintons Kick GOP Ass Again

eom

[lvx35]

132. Oh she's got a lot of baggage from both sides alright, and its filled with cash.

And that's why we she can and will win. I'm always surprised to hear DUers who have seen sooo much at this point still think that what the people thinks or feels really matters all that much, like there is actually am even distribution of power and representation in this country. You should all know better. Hillary will win because she has support from within the existing structures of power and influence.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

136. You're Skeeeered Of This Guy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IrE6FMpai8





:rofl:

[Perry Logan]

138. So many DUers are scared shitless of Republicans. I'll bet they sleep with a night light.

[LanternWaste]

141. I disagree...

I disagree. The republics will paint the candidate who wins the nomination as being the 'worst of the worst', and carrying more destructive baggage than the ones who didn't win.

This has been the GOP MO for almost twenty years now-- anyone thinking that Sen. Clinton would receive the lion's share of GOP condemnation, swift-boating, lies and distortions over any of the other nominees has vastly underestimated them.

"I am confused as to why this is not overwhelmingly apparent to everyone." :shrug: