On Turkey & Armenia: has US admitted genocide of Indians and ethnic cleansing of blacks in Rosewood

[yurbud]

Tulsa, and elsewhere?

Hitler said he was inspired by our extermination of Native Americans down to a statistically insignificant minority, and for a hundred years after the end of slavery, there was periodic ethnic cleansing of blacks from towns, sundown laws to keep them from settling in the first place, and lynchings on a regular basis to terrorize them into not fighting for their rights.

I actually support identifying the Armenian genocide for what it is, but we would have more moral authority if we, like the Germans after World War II, acknowledged our own sins.

[GeminiProgressive]

1. Couldn't agree more

and that is only what we have done to some of our own people. ...try adding the people of other nations we have murdered as well.

[MADem]

2. Yes. Further, I have seen films, documentaries, and news shows recounting those events.

These productions were created by AMERICANS. Who recounted the events in honest, painful, unflinching fashion.

See, that's why we KNOW that it happened. Because Americans acknowledged it and publicized it.

There was also a Senate apology for lynching, that included Rosewood. Excerpt:

In my State of Florida, there were 61 lynchings of Black Americans between 1921 and 1946, which, of course, represents only a fraction of the total number that were committed in my State. There is no justification or explanation for these horrible acts of violence. As a nation that respects the rule of law and court-prescribed justice, what happened was vigilantism and mob rule. That is what determined ``justice.'' And that is never justifiable.

There is a place in Florida called Rosewood. It was the site, in the 1920s, of what many describe as a massacre. That Black community was destroyed by Whites. No arrests were ever made in as many as 27 racial killings in that location.

Florida finally passed the Nation's first compensation for Blacks who suffered from those past racial injustices. It was all directed back to the massacres that had occurred at Rosewood, FL. The 1994 Florida Legislature passed the Rosewood Claims Bill to compensate victims for loss of property as a result of the failure to prosecute those individuals responsible. I felt as a Floridian that this acknowledgement was long overdue, and it made me proud to see, at long last, that we addressed the tragedy of Rosewood.

Now, as a Member of the Senate, I believe this resolution we are passing tonight is long overdue. In being proud of this event, I am also humbled to stand up as a Member of the Senate and to personally apologize for the Senate's failure to act--a failure to outlaw barbaric acts such as lynchings and racial massacres.

I am proud, too, that we can today reaffirm that we are a nation of laws designed to protect the freedom and liberty of all Americans.....

http://www.africanamericanstudies.buffalo.edu/ANNOUNCE/vra/lynch/congress/congress3.htm

I believe, of all people, Senator Brownback was the one who drafted the Native American Senate apology. Too lazy to look for a cite, but it should be there somewhere.



In Turkey, you can't even MENTION any sorts of deaths of any sorts of Armenians, never mind the "G" word. See, that shit NEVER HAPPENED. It was just "ordinary war" see? No one was targetted, see? You'll keep yer mouth shut if ya know what's good for ya, see?

That said, this editorial is kinda interesting, as well--it essentially asks, why are we sticking our beak in at this stage of the game? http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/opinion/x901635647

It is important that Turkey face up to its history, not least because there are still tensions between Armenians and Turks in Turkey. There is healing to be gained whenever a nation finds the courage and honesty to recognize historic wrongs committed in its name. It was appropriate, for instance, for Congress to apologize for the internment of Japanese-Americans in World War II and the mistreatment of Native American tribes.

But it is unclear what Congress accomplishes by condemning century-old actions on the other side of the world committed by a regime long passed into history. The resolution may bring some comfort to Armenian-Americans who have long felt popular history slighted their people's nightmare, but this "feel-good" legislation comes at a price: Spotlighting this history undermines current national interests in a critical part of the world.

[yurbud]

3. thanks for filling in the blanks

[MADem]

4. Anytime.

I'm of the opinion that the Armenians deserve acknowledgement. I'm also of the opinion that the TIMING on this is BAAAAAD.

Maybe the EU will push Turkey a bit, and get them to come to the conclusion that it might be a good idea to acknowledge that the OTTOMANS--not the Kemalists, the OTTOMANS--did a bad, bad, thing.

It's so EASY to parse the situation, but the Turks dug in early and they still rather obstreperously refuse to see the "Third Way" to get their asses out of this situation. If they could just DO it, and move on, it would be helpful on a lot of levels--not the least being all that Armenian American private dough that might flow towards their country in the form of investment if they'd just get off their asses and get the spirit!

[yurbud]

9. I imagine our response Native Americans, blacks, interned Japanese, etc. would have been same 50

years ago.

Germany turned around quickly because we were occupying them and protecting them from the Soviets.

When people get to confess their sins at their own pace, it can take considerably longer.

[MADem]

11. Well, we took longer than they will have, if they decide to do it anytime soon!!!

I hope they don't wait as long as we did...they've got an opportunity now, if they'll only take it... and simply by laying it on the Ottomans (not THEM, the western alphabet, East-West, modern Kemalists) they can put this thing to rest.

We'll see how it goes, I guess.

[hfojvt]

8. now I am really injured

you were way ahead of me, and with much more detail.

That's what I get for not reading the thread before posting :blush:

Alot of it though, is not that well publicized. You don't get it in your typical American History textbook or class. You have to read something like "Lies my teacher told me" on your own, and I am not even sure my local library has that book.

[tulip]

5. Bush's campaign promise to Armenian Americans

Yes we have admitted our part in the terrible offensives against our native peoples and slavery.

Most states have already passed legislation recognizing the Armenian Genocide.
http://www.anca.org/genocide_resource/states_map.php

Huckabee signed it into law in Arkansas

and .........bush made this promise.

President G. W. Bush
In a letter dated February 19, 2000 to two of his leading Armenian American supporters, then presidential candidate George W. Bush stated...
“The twentieth century was marred by wars of unimaginable brutality, mass murder and genocide. History records that the Armenians were the first people of the last century to have endured these cruelties. The Armenians were subjected to a genocidal campaign that defies comprehension and commands all decent people to remember and acknowledge the facts and lessons of an awful crime in a century of bloody crimes against humanity. If elected President, I would ensure that our nation properly recognizes the tragic suffering of the Armenian people.'

[hfojvt]

6. I think it has, in a sense

I remember Clinton doing alot of apologizing when he was President. I am not sure if he covered every incident. Maybe I will google "Clinton apology" just to see what comes up.

Can somebody get me some stats though - is it really fair to compare Armenia to Tulsa?

I'd also like to see details on what happened to Native Americans. Who did what, and when? Although I have seen all too much detail in "Culture of make believe" by Derrick Jensen. I mean big picture details though, starting in 1492. (I have also seen the movie "The Black Hat" which said in a post-script that some tribe converted to Christianity and was ultimately slaughtered by its neighbors. This was in the 1600s in Canada.)

[hfojvt]

7. you are totally right. I remember the same thing.

Here's one:

http://nativenet.uthscsa.edu/archive/nl/9306/0147.html

Among the first two pages of apologies about Monica, are sites talking about
1. an apology for the study in Tuskegee
2. an apology for supporting Guatemala
3. an apology to nativa Hawaiians
and
4. a near-apology for slavery, during a speech in Uganda

So, as usual, you were spot on :argh: Ach, injury time out. I think I just sprained my shoulder while patting myself on the back.

[Chulanowa]

10. Starting in 1492?

Well, Columbus landed on Guanahani (modern San Salvador in the Bahamas) where he met the natives, likely Taino. In his journal he stated he "could conquer the whole of them with 50 men, and govern them as I pleased." Later after exploring the coasts of Cuba and Hispaniola, he left thirty-nine men behind (presumably the crew of the Santa Maria since it had ran aground and was unrepairable) who formed the town of La Navidad in what is now Haiti. Upon leaving for Spain, he kidnapped about twenty natives to take back to Spain. Eight made the trip alive. Back at La Navidad, the men he left behind started the tradition of native slavery and abuse... And got massacred for their trouble. Columbus' second voyage brought him back just in time to find the last eleven who had been killed.

Speaking of that second voyage, Michel de Cuneo, a member of the ship's crew, had this to say:
"When I was in the ship, I turned into captivity a beautiful caribe woman, given to me as a gift by the Almirant (Columbus), and after I took her to my stateroom, and while she was naked as their custom is, I felt desires of laying with her. I want to satisfy my desire but she didn’t want and gave me such a treatment with her nails that I think it would be better to never begun. But when I saw this (and to tell you everything up to the end), I take a rope and whipped her, after what she screamed a lot, in such a way you cannot believe your ears. Finally we reached such an agreement that I can tell you she appeared to be trained in a whore school."
Columbus had been ordered on his second voyage, by the King and Queen, to treat the Natives with respect and even love. He wrote back stating that he felt Spain should enslave the Caribs due to their aggression and the emnity towards the Taino. The monarchs refused this - so Columbus instead enslaved 1,600 Arawaks (also enemies of the Carbs, go figure). A lucky 400 or so Arawak found that the boats were full, and were released. Columbus imposed a tribute system similar to that of the Aztec on the mainland. The natives in Cicao on Haiti all those above 14 years of age were required to find a certain quota of gold every three months. Upon their return, they would receive tokens that they wore around their necks. Any Indian found without a copper token had their hands cut off and subsequently bled to death. By this point, mothers were strangling newborns to keep them from having to be a part of this system

On the third voyage, he stopped by the Dominican settlement of La Isabela. The dudes here were pretty unhappy since they had to, heaven forbid, rough it. Of the settlement, Columbus wrote in September 1498, "From here one might send, in the name of the Holy Trinity, as many slaves as could be sold..."

By the start of the 1600's, most of the islands were empty aside from Spanish and French settlers. Disease and slavery had depopulated the islands of the native inhabitants, which led to large-scale importation of labor slaves from Africa.

So, starting at 1492, we're off to a good start with just Columbus. Do you really want to find out about the other Spanish-Portuguese escapades in Mexico and South America? Then we can move on to North America, if you like... :D

[hfojvt]

12. Too much detail, and yet not enough detail

First, how do you know why the 39 remaining were massacred? Did they leave a journal, did the natives explain this to Columbus?

Second, all of the slave taking and tribute gathering and raping and chopping off of hands, while it is undeniably and disgustingly nasty, does not amount to genocide, or extermination.

Third, the Islands were depopulated in roughly 100 years. What was their original population and how exactly did the people die? Were entire villages massacred, like the Pequot? Or did they mostly die of disease?

That is the question on the continent too. A massive die-off from disease, does not show intent to commit genocide. Mostly I would be interested in the events that happened in what is now the United States.

I just wonder how much was deliberate and how much was disease? (and yes, I recently read about the smallpox blankets.)

[Chulanowa]

13. So, do only certain groups get to call systematic murder of their race "genocide," or what?

What we see in America is a system of ethnic cleansing. The continual push westward into the continent with the intentional and forcible displacement of the natives, under penalty of death. All very clearly recorded. There is the massacre of the bison in the plains states, both as part of greed for the delicacy of their tongues back east and demand for hides, but also the US government's motives of destroying the animals to deny food to the plains natives. There are countless instances of treaties that are broken, and clearly so by the European sides, and countless more instances where land was "bought" from members of a tribe who had no authority to sell it.

Disease did take a huge toll on native populations - after the Spanish. The conquest of Mexico and the Yucatan, De Soto's tromp through the southeast, explorers in the plains and southwest, all brought fun diseases like smallpox, measles, and others. These swept along the native trade routes, obliterated friend and enemy, destroyed city populations - You think Tenochtitlan was the only city in the Americas?

What the United States had to deal with after the revolutionary war were the disease-resistant survivors. No more vulnerable to European disease than the Europeans themselves. Yes, plague warfare was used - typhoid corpses were dumped in lakes and rivers along the wagon trails where natives were known to be, there's the infamous smallpox blankets, and of course the final blow in the war against the Plains Indians, the near-eradication of their main food source, leading to starvation and its attendant diseases. Everything else was handily settled by gunfire, social deconstruction, and incitement of the neighbors

The history books call it a war. So do the Janjaweed in Darfur and the Hutus in Rwanda. So did the Ottomans in Armenia.