DUers - do any other DUers ever change your mind?

[RiverStone]

Look at all these 1000's of posts declaring the wisdom of our choice, or the folly of some one else's - ALL THIS ENERGY directed into a debate among....the good guys! In the end, how many of you actually think YOU can change the mind of other DUers?

I mean, as a lot - we are pretty damn independent thinkers! You don't want me or him or her telling ya how to think!

And even if we manage to wrestle a few folks away from their candidate; how many ya figure that would be? A handful of progressives switch from A to B or maybe C? Not too many in the BIG picture. Again, your trying to convince someone on the same team! In fact, so am I!

What we really need to be doing is find another venue where all this convincing wisdom could really effect the General Election. Is there a place called Independent Underground, or Sitting on the Fence Underground - how the heck do we reach those people? They don't live in the blogosphere the way we do.

I just find it kinda silly we spend so much time shouting to people that GET IT - when we should be posting all this good sense for people who don't! Of course, silly is as silly does and look at what I'm doing right now....




peace~ :)

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. My dear RiverStone...

There are a couple of DU'ers who are RL friends...

They have considerable influence over my thinking...

But these discussions typically take place off the board....

So...:shrug:

[babylonsister]

2. Never. And you are nice, but how do you herd this bunch? I'd be

agreeable if there was a plan.

Thanks! And Peace!

[RiverStone]

9. How do you heard this bunch?

Maybe like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk7yqlTMvp8

Whatta think?

Peace back babylonsister :hi:

[saracat]

3. I have actually met some Duers who have said I convinced them to vote for my Candide.Some do not

post much but they do lurk. I have changed my mind sometimes due to new information I find on DU.Some of us take an opportunity to learn.So I guess the answer is Yes!

[Az]

4. You have to keep in mind the environment we all live in

Political discourse in public is frowned upon. You don't discuss politics or religion (my two favorite subjects). Our society has become isolated and turned in on itself in large part due to television and advertising. Most people are part of this herd. Those who are not want to make a difference but within the system in play most of us are simply cut out or not able to make connection with anything of merit. So we gather together in like minded groups in order to feel the comfort of knowing that others get it. Others see the problems we see. Others are just as frustrated as we are. There is value in that. But we do need to do more.

That is why I posted the General Public thread earlier today. Yes its great that we have DU here for us all to gather at. But unless we find a way to spread the ideas to the world around us in a large scale manner little will change. The MSM is utterly coopted. Corporations continue to try to isolate us even more. Politicians have broken what protections we had from the Corporations excesses and thus have become utterly beholden to them.

So yes. DU is important. But what we need to be doing is figuring out a way of channeling all our thoughts and ideas into the public at large. I do not think DU is a waste of time by any means. But it needs to be even more. It needs to be a fount of change for society. Not just a place for us to commiserate.

[RiverStone]

14. Ummm , General Public Thread....

Guess I missed that thread, but channeling our thought into the public at large is exactly what I'm talking about!

So Az, do you have a specific locale (i.e. that would reach John Q. Public) in mind?

And by the way, in no way did I even mean to suggest that DU is a waste of time - so I hope that was not implied because that was not my intent. On the contrary, it is such a VALUABLE USE OF TIME - I wish other people outside of DU could see what we see and read what we read.




peace~:)

[Gregorian]

5. I think there is also more to it than just changing people's minds.

Some of us are slow. I mean SLOW. I learned how to ride a unicycle in three days. I had it down. When I was five, I bought a bike from the neighbor, and was riding it on my first go. No training wheels. No help at all. I remember being alone. Which is weird. I picked up trumpet, and was playing in the high school band when I was still in sixth grade. Then came chemistry. It just was like pulling teeth. Over and over. I took college chemistry three times. Not because I had to, but because I thought I'd eventually get it. Algebra took forever. But I eventually really got it. What a surprise. So I decided to get a degree in engineering. I got good grades in Calculus, but never really got it. The same thing goes for life. And politics. I just never caught on. Humor, art. I love it, but can't do it. Or so it seems.

So, when I found DU, I posted a couple of things and was promptly kicked off. I sulked around for a year before sneaking back on. They were really weird about using all caps in those days. Can you believe it? That's why I was kicked off.

I should get to the point, huh? So I have sat here reading and rereading for several years. I read, and forget. I'm more a Bruce Lee than a Noam Chomsky. Being here has been like filling up a container. I'm getting full, but now I still need the fluency to go out and use what I know. I'm still a long way away from being able to do battle in the real world. I mean, this stuff we're doing here is psychology, politics, sociology, and a ton of facts.

All I'm saying is that many of us are just here to learn. But along the way I have also altered some concepts. I've become a better liberal.


Edit- Gosh, I guess it's late. I just gave my life history. You didn't even ask for it.

What I'm seeing out there in the real world is total obstinacy. These feedback pages that you find on websites are such an indication. And sometimes I sense that nobody is going to change. They've got a world view that is cast in stone.

Argh. I'm outta here. I'm typing and not making any sense. Crap.

[RiverStone]

10. Sounds good to me!

All I'm saying is that many of us are just here to learn. But along the way I have also altered some concepts. I've become a better liberal.

Thanks Gregorian for reminding me that not everything I post has to convince anybody of a damn thing.

Learning too....

And by the way, your typing made lots of sense! Maybe you do your best work when it's late :hi:

[Gregorian]

21. Yay.

It worked.

[babylonsister]

12. The things you learn!

I'm more a Bruce Lee than a Noam Chomsky.

No, you are a thoughtful person who gets to spout to your heart's content on DU, and we are all the better for it!

[Gregorian]

22. Thanks so much!

You absolutely nailed it. I post as though I'm thinking to myself, and nobody is listening. I've been bottled up for years. Most of the time I didn't know what was bothering me. Then I came here, and it all made sense. It was politics and our society. Not me. And I have a world view that is very different than almost everyone. Then I find out that top scientists are all saying the same thing. I'm getting validation here. I never had it before. And I was using my friends as I use this place, and relationships tend to not work that way. How many people can hear about peak oil and global warming year in and year out? Even here it's seriously misunderstood by most.

And to think there is appreciation? Thanks a hell of a lot.

:)

[jgraz]

6. In small ways, yes.

But more importantly, DUers have educated me, informed me, helped me form and refine my own views and taught me (sometimes harshly) how to effectively express my own thoughts.

After talking and arguing with this crowd for a few years, I find that I now destroy any right-winger who tries to engage me. I'm not mean (usually) and we don't end up shouting, but they definitely find themselves outclassed in terms of the amount and accuracy of information they can bring to a topic and in terms of the logical integrity of their arguments.

There are two reasons this has happened: Air America Radio and Democratic Underground. Not necessarily in that order.

[Arkansas Granny]

18. You have brought up a very important point.

"...they definitely find themselves outclassed in terms of the amount and accuracy of information they can bring to a topic and in terms of the logical integrity of their arguments."

I have gained so much here due to the research and knowledge of other posters that I can now hold my own in discussions of politics and back up my position with facts and even provide references to prove what I am saying. It is really alarming to see how many people listen to the media spin and accept it as the truth without ever trying to confirm any of the information they've been fed.

I don't think I have really convinced many people to come over from the dark side, but I have certainly sown a few seeds of doubt and that may be enough make them stop and think for a change.

[RiverStone]

20. And maybe that is what makes us DUers unique

It is really alarming to see how many people listen to the media spin and accept it as the truth without ever trying to confirm any of the information they've been fed.

Question authority or at the least question the MSM - we all have a knack for doing that. I have always been baffled that even with declared Dems in the general public, DU's spin on things can be vastly different then that of what the MSM reports (just looks at the polls).

It seems we know certain truths and untruths as fact, whereas so may folks simply chose to turn on the TV and see it as gospel. I wish we could have discussions with folks who have never heard of DU, because they are they ones we need to reach as far as influencing vote totals in 08.

[TahitiNut]

7. I have a strong tendency to reject positions having advocates who rely on falsehoods ...

... and language seemingly deliberate in its selection to misrepresent and provoke associations that don't exist. On issues where I might have been inclined to entertain an alternate view based on some degree of research and thought, I've been caused to reject such views even more firmly when I read such irresponsible advocacy apparently lacking in integrity and intellectual honesty. When such positions are then protected by ad hominem attacks on those questioning them, I tend to reject them out of hand. When those advocates also demonstrate no respect for opposing views, based on valid principles and values, I doubt I'd ever adopt an allied perspective.

[babylonsister]

11. Holy mackeral! THAT is an ANSWER!

So... no? :P

[TahitiNut]

15. Well, I like to think for myself and do my own research.

DU often assists in this but I rarely (if ever) form an opinion or change to the opposite opinion based on some internet discussion. That said, I DO form impressions and fill in perspectives based on candid descriptions from folks whose own self-examination is evident and who present themselves with candor and without undue hubris. (I think we can all think of at least one or two DUers who match that description.) DU is most useful for me in sniffing out reliable sources of information ... which I tend to cross-check without accepting unfiltered.

I rather doubt the Internet is a good place for epiphanies. :silly:

But back to the question of "change your mind" ... the answer would be 'yes' since "change" doesn't necessarily mean adopt the opposite opinion or even the opinion held by that DUer. What I described was one of the more significant ways my mind "changes" as a result of DU. Fair?

[Individualist]

29. Excellent post, TahitiNut

If individual posts could be recommended...

:applause: :thumbsup:

[TahitiNut]

30. Merci bien.

Je l'apprécie.

[Justitia]

8. Sure, we all have areas of expertise and I've had my mind changed on issues

Usually it was because I had knowledge gaps on a topic / issue and DUers filled me in on what I was missing.
With a more comprehensive understanding, I changed my mind and perspective.

I like the stuff I learn here every day. I hope I've helped someone else along the way too.

[bridgit]

13. not really, i have my life experiences, i find solace in them, no one here cares...

about them, yet they sustain me and thankfully so, so...the rest here is too often just DU's up/down, in/out, back/forth, hot/cold, salt/pepper, me/you, us/them cyber placebo in lieu of life itself

[TK421]

16. Nope....they type words...just like me

face-to-face debate would be a much different story, and I really don't take half the shit I see posted here seriously

[Mythsaje]

17. We do it by taking what we learn here

out into the real world and talking to people on an individual basis.

[Tesha]

19. I've learned a lot. My perspective has certainly been broadened...

There are DUers from whom I've learned a lot.

And many DUers, whether I agree with them or not,
have greatly broadened my perspective on many issues.

Outright changed my mind? Probably not.

But there are also a (pretty large) number of DUers
who are just completely full of shite and malevolence,
and the community would be far better without them, yet
they never seem to get the granite gift -- go figure!

Tesha

[blondeatlast]

23. On issues, yes. On candidates, I remain steadfastly uncommitted! nt

[Coexist]

24. Yes. Unless they call me names, then No.

[mmonk]

25. Of course. Someone may point something out I haven't considered.

The only thing I won't compromise on is the constitution and Bill of Rights and why no one should be permitted to water down our protections and due process.

[Mz Pip]

26. I've had my mind changed

It usually happens when the poster provides links and not just opinions. Opinions by themselves rarely change my mind, but when they are backed up by evidence then I am quite flexible.

As far as the candidate thing goes, I've pretty much avoided candidate bashing/adulation threads. I haven't decided on a candidate yet. I don't dislike any of them, nor am I totally enamored of any of them. I just want a Democratic President elected in 2008.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[Swamp Rat]

27. Ga-Ga for Gore

:D

[harun]

28. When people present facts and links to good research to back

up the points they are making they definitely can change minds. Others have changed my mind for sure and I think a few might of at least rethought their positions from things I have presented them.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

31. I have had my mind changed by...

DUers over the many years I have been here. Mostly on minor points, but also on a few major points.

I have watched many threads where posters have talked about a change their viewpoints bsed on their experience her.

Political education is a great thing -- I think it is something DU does best.