Middleburg Woman Killed By Her Pit Bulls

[eagler]

http://www.news4jax.com/news/14250768/detail.html

MIDDLEBURG, Fla. -- A 42-year-old woman was fatally mauled by her two pit bulls, which also attacked the victim's son and a sheriff's deputy before both dogs were shot and killed on Tuesday morning, according to the Clay County Sheriff's Office.

Tina Marie Canterbury was dead by 8:15 a.m. when Clay deputies arrived at the scene in the 2400 block of Cosmos Avenue, off county Road 218 West.

"She was a wonderful, wonderful person to be around -- always smiling and always happy. It brightened up the room when she walked in," said Billie Cantebury, the victim's cousin.

[Catherine Vincent]

1. Poor lady. n/t

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

2. Ruh Roh.

[BlooInBloo]

3. That's some rooby rack.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

4. Pit bulls were not bred to be lap dogs, nor to sleep with people.

I do NOT understand the stupidity of people who insist pit bulls are safe simply because they haven't yet been attacked. How much more of this do we have to hear before people wake the hell up?

[BlooInBloo]

5. As long as there's JUST ONE pitbull that hasn't attacked anyone.

[renie408]

7. Your going to get in trou-ble!! The pro-pitbull people will be in here

citing links and telling you that pitbulls don't kill people, people kill people...or something like that.

[BlooInBloo]

8. If the worst thing in my life is pro-pitbull people whining at me...

... Then I'm not doing too badly.

[Mythsaje]

14. I'm pro-DOG.

And just about every expert in the field of canine behavior agrees that it's NOT the breed, but the environment and circumstances.

Pits require a strong hand and mind. Always. I daresay that most folks SHOULDN'T have any dog they can't physically and mentally dominate. Period.

[BlooInBloo]

18. Well since America is the land of weak-minded simpletons, they should be banned immediately.

[Mythsaje]

21. What--weak minded simpletons?

I'm all for that.

[depakid]

205. They've been banned in Australia

in New South Wales and Queensland, after one too many maulings.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

240. Wonder when one too many IS one too many?

I know that my personal threshold for stupid violence from bad choices in "pets" was surpassed long ago.

[Vektor]

23. Many of them are completely docile, also.

While any breed of dog requires a capable trainer, terriers of ANY kind can be tenacious. Most of the Pitbulls I've encountered are a bit clownish and hyper, but hardly aggressive or vicious.

[Mythsaje]

28. Clownish is right...

LOL.

They need good socialization, smart discipline, and a lot of attention. Falter on any of these things and you've got trouble brewing.

[Vektor]

34. I've never had trouble from them.

Unless you consider relentless face licking trouble. :-)

[Mythsaje]

38. We fostered a MONSTER of a pit once...

He probably topped the scale at over a hundred pounds...

Biggest lush on the planet. He's now a therapy dog, if you can believe it.

[Vektor]

55. Ah! I'm glad to hear it.

Proper, yet loving training works wonders. :-)

[JuniperLea]

31. Pits, German Shepherds, Pincers...

Any dog that weighs over 25 lbs, imho. They still have a touch of the wild in them.

[Mythsaje]

43. We have a Jindo...

She's 55 lbs. And a Shiba. He's around 30. They're both "primitive" breeds. The Shiba absolutely loves people...the Jindo doesn't trust anyone unless we tell her that they're okay. There is no question in our house as to who's the boss. And that makes more of a difference than a lot of people realize.

[JuniperLea]

50. Sure does!

Cooper could easily over-power me if I had let him. But he knew I was the boss. When I scolded him (not very often at all) he would roll over with all four paws in the air... total submission, complete and undeniable.

[renie408]

63. In the case of the GSD, it isn't 'wild'. Its that they were bred for a reason.

And protection is part of that reason. You have to take that into account when you are raising them. They need to be socialized. They need to be around lots of other dogs and people and see many different things. The problem with a big dog is that when they go off, they can do serious damage. We have six dogs. The only one that has ever bitten anybody is our rat terrier. She is hell on tiny little paws.

[Mythsaje]

68. Our Pom is the biter in our house...

He's a big pom, but hardly deadly.

[renie408]

79. I always think it is a Napolean complex. n/t

[JuniperLea]

26. No shit!

We can generally find so much more to whine at you about!

LOL!

I'm still waiting for the old Bloo to rise up and eat you:)

[BlooInBloo]

30. ?Old Bloo?

[JuniperLea]

39. Yeah, the one who...

Used to piss me off so much.

One of us has changed in the past year or so... and I'm betting it wasn't me! LOL!


Here's my 111 lbs of lap puppy... gone now, but never forgotten... he would take a person down on command... all sorts of fun tricks:)

[BlooInBloo]

45. Pshaw - we've always been like peas & carrots!

:rofl:

I don't *think* I've changed much... mebbe... I've tried to get a little more creative to cut down on the post-deletion rate... Middlin' success with that.

[JuniperLea]

67. Yeah, I've been here four years longer...

But you've got a ton more posts than I do! Ya chatterbox!

:rofl:

[BlooInBloo]

71. Total words might well be the same though.

[JuniperLea]

81. Oh, go on with your concise self!

I can't help it! One word just leads to the next with me... like eating peanuts!

:rofl:

[BlooInBloo]

83. You and I differ on that. (grin)

[Vektor]

17. Sorry, but...

If someone wants to make a hysterical baseless claim about a breed of dog they likely have no experience with except for the sensational news stories they read, they had better be prepared to get "whined" at, i.e., educated.

[LisaL]

177. And pitbulls are actually the nicest, the sweetest ... you know,

the usual...

[salin]

200. I'll stick with my goldens

others can do as they please - but I really am irritated by those folks in my urban neighborhood who let their pits run free (against the law) - a couple have decided that my property is theirs - and they don't recognize that it is mine as well. I am a long time dog lover - but these dogs (the ones that roam through my yard with a sense of proprietorship) frighten me.

[Mythsaje]

214. I'm not a big fan of letting dogs roam free...

It's dangerous for them and for the neighborhood. My dad lets HIS dog run free but she's actually well-received in the neighborhood because she keeps bad elements from hanging out in the alley. She's a big shepherd mix of some sort.

I still think it's asking for trouble...one of these days she's going to get hurt and it'll be because he didn't bother to fence her in.

[salin]

223. I don't fear for the dogs, in my neighborhood,

I fear for the kids - and myself. These dogs have seemed to claim a whole lot of territory as their own - regardless of who actually lives on those properties. Even the goldens are very protective of "their territory" and "their people" - what happens when dogs expand the definition of "their territory" because the owners are careless? I expect that there is a tragedy waiting to happen. I have a detached garage - and on a few times it has been a little harrowing going to my own garage. Mind you I am a dog person who is not naturally fearful of dogs. But I also have enough experience to know when dogs are working from instinct and "protect my area" instincts in particular. Frightening when you are trying to get to your car from your house to your own garage when a dog is 'on guard' against you on your own property.

[Mythsaje]

225. I'd be worried too

and I'm not afraid of dogs either.

[awoke_in_2003]

323. "when a dog is 'on guard' against you on your own property"

Easy answer, .45 automatic. I have a six year old, and if I ever saw a stray wander on my property, and it seemed dangerous, I would drop it in a heartbeat.

[Trillo]

232. Actually the previous poster made a very pertinent point.

Never, ever, allow your dogs on your bed, and never let them sleep with you. Even keep them out of your bedroom.

It's a matter of human dominance over the alpha dog. If you have a gentle, little breed it likely won't matter much.

It makes me really angry that so many people get dogs and don't even learn a little about dog psychology.

"Oh, looky, isn't little puppy cute? Let's take him home! Let's let him up on the couch. Let's let him up on the bed! Isn't he cute!"

Even small puppies sometimes grow into very big dogs that can be quite dangerous. GET A BOOK on dog training if you have a dog, get several, and READ them! Then apply what you learned.

Sheesh.

[blonndee]

241. Yep, a "weak-minded simpleton" could easily come up with such a psuedo-"argument." n/t

[Vektor]

13. I've always owned them, and they are wonderful dogs.

No more aggressive or dangerous than any other breed.

Humans are injured by dogs often enough, but the press really likes to stress when it's a Pitbull attack. And people love to jump on the sensationalist bandwagon when they do.

Any breed can be aggressive, and breed can be well trained and well socialized, too. Pitbulls are perfectly able to sleep alongside people, be lap dogs, etc... mine are.

It just so happens that in this particular case, something went horribly wrong. There are millions of pitbulls in this country. Very few of them maul people.


Pit bulls ARE safe, and I'm hardly stupid for saying so. I've raised them for years, so I am actually SMART enough to know that.

What is stupid is discriminating against the breed for a few isolated incidents, most of which were caused by human abuse/maltreatement of the dogs.

[eagler]

19. That argument just doesn't hold up anymore.

You might as well have a pet lion.

[Vektor]

29. Riiiight...

I speak from years of experience, and you speak from the cuff after reading a scary news story.

I hate to break this to you, but I've raised this breed all my adult life, and the argument not only holds water, but is totally sound. I know this firsthand. How many of these dogs do you own?

[MadMaddie]

46. I have a Visla/Pitt mix and he is the most amazing dog...

something went wrong for sure in this case.

[Vektor]

65. These dogs in question in this story...

could have been inbred, from a puppy mill. No background on the dogs or how they were raised. Who's to say the son didn't kick them around? Or someone else? Why did he call and say "We have two purebred red-nosed pitbulls?" Sounds like he saw them as status symbols. Why do you use such language when calling 911 to say that your mother is being mauled to death?

And saying "Don't bring an ambulance - they will go after them too?! WTF? - Sounds like they might have been raised to be aggressive. We have no idea. Just because they lived with the woman for 2 years doesn't mean they were treated well.

For a dog to maul its owner to death, there has to be some pretty strange circumstances, regardless of breed.

[MadMaddie]

193. You are absolutely right...the son sounds very suspicious...

it really makes me angry that people take this breed or any breed for that matter because they are status symbols...

I hate these stories.

[Vektor]

285. I hate the fucking wackos that actually buy these stories even more.

My god, they have never owned a pit in their lives, and have NO experience with the breed, yet they think they know it all.

[JuniperLea]

44. Got a link?

Smells like bullshit to me:)

[eagler]

116. There is a reason they're being banned around the country.

http://pit-bulls.christianfunfair.org/attacks.htm

My brother's bulldog was killed by one that got out of it's yard and came into the bulldog's back yard.

[JuniperLea]

122. Ignorant people do ignorant things

Books have been banned too... movies, songs, performers... doesn't make it right.

[eagler]

129. Yep. Those darn ignorant children.

I don't really know how many have been attacked by a movie, a song or a performer. But I'll be sure and google it.

[Mythsaje]

Nearly all experts in the field of canine behavior agree...

It's not the breed, but environment and circumstances.

People here like to ignore that because they don't understand dogs. Hell, most Americans don't understand dogs. They just like to pretend they do.

A strong hand and mind is required to deal with any dog, particularly one with as much muscle and power as a pit. The dog can NEVER be left to wonder who's really the boss.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

61. Again, pit bulls were not bred to be lap dogs one sleeps with....

..... if that's what one wants, one gets a golden retriever, dachshund, poodle, shetland sheepdog, chihuahua, etc. ad infinitum.

If, on the other hand, one wants to keep intruders away, or to go around showing off saying, "Look, I have a real macho dog and I can control him!", then by all means one should get a pit bull.

There are too many types of dogs. There's no oneed to be getting the one bred to kill.

[JuniperLea]

75. You should go back and read that story you posted...

The WHOLE story...

"Having said all that, we must tell you that a well-bred, well-socialized, and well-trained pit bull is one of the most delightful, intelligent, and gentle dogs imaginable."


You quite simply cannot be more wrong.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

80. I did. What part of it did you feel was less accusatory and made them seem benign? nt

[JuniperLea]

84. This part!!! Clearly!

"Having said all that, we must tell you that a well-bred, well-socialized, and well-trained pit bull is one of the most delightful, intelligent, and gentle dogs imaginable."

[Sarah Ibarruri]

90. No doubt. I'm sure the woman that got killed found hers delightful...

In fact, she SLEPT with them. How's that for delightful? Does it get any more delightful than that? Not really!

This all reminds me of Sigfreid and Roy. Which one was it that got mauled by the tiger? Roy? And what was it he said when his throat was hanging out of his neck? "It wasn't his fault!" Nah, it wasn't the tiger's fault. Tigers can be delightful, pleasant creatures when they're well trained.

OI VEI.

[JuniperLea]

94. Apples and oranges

Tigers are not domesticated animals.

And like I said, there is not near enough information in that news story to know how this woman raised or treated her animals. Nothing.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

106. A bull is a domesticated animal and it will gore you in the wink of an eye.

How the hell are you going to sleep with a bull?

A pit bull is about as delightful as a pet as a serial killer makes a good dinner guest.

[Mythsaje]

111. A bull is NOT a domesticated animal.

It's livestock. There's a difference.

[BlooInBloo]

113. herd animal != domesticated animal.

[Mythsaje]

130. Climb into a corral with a bull and see how "domesticated" he is...

Livestock is, at best, "semi" domesticated. And ones that have very little human contact are hardly a good standard for comparison. Like a bull. We may define his territory, but make no mistake, it's HIS territory. Enter at your own risk.

Domesticated animals (at least the ones with more brains than a chicken), don't assume OUR territory is THEIR territory except by mutual assent. A dog may claim your yard or house as "his," but he's holding it on your behalf, not his own. A bull, on the other hand, doesn't recognize your claim in the first place.

[BlooInBloo]

133. Um, I'm AGREEING with you, and provided a DIAGNOSIS of how the error might be made.

[Mythsaje]

138. Sorry...

I'm used to you arguing. LOL

[BlooInBloo]

139. Easy mistake to make. :)

[JuniperLea]

114. If you can't debate without straw men...

Good evening to you.

[JuniperLea]

264. I'm only quoting the article YOU chose to use here!

Good God! Do you support what is said in the article YOU posted, or do you not??

[Vektor]

96. There is no evidence these animals were well trained. The opposite seems

true, actually.

See this post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1970352&mesg_id=1970668

And who are you to say that the above statement regarding a well trained pit bull is wrong?

You are getting all your info about this breed from sensational news stories, it would seem. I can tell you the statement is 100% correct because I raise the dogs myself, and have for years.

Until you can claim the same, please refrain from perpetuating an unfair and completely inaccurate stereotype.

[JuniperLea]

118. Hi Pal!

I think you replied to the wrong person... I'm with you on this!

[Vektor]

128. Oh.

Heh. Oopsy. :-)

[Vektor]

88. Would you stop that please??

I have raised pit bulls my whole adult life, and let me tell you, they are PERFECTLY acceptable pets, lapdogs, sleeping partners, etc. I know this from years of experience with the breed. I've never known a sweeter breed, to be frank, and I've lived grown up with huskies, labs, poodles, shepherds, and great danes. All were nice, but the pitbull is such a sweet people pleaser. As an aside, only once was anyone in my family nipped by one of the dogs.

It was the poodle.

It seems you are speaking from no experience, and have clearly heard too many sensational news stories. Please do not participate in perpetuating this ridiculous prejudice.

Any breed of dog can bite or be aggressive, even the supposedly "safe" ones you listed. Proper socialization is important with any breed, but no breed is a monster.

Pitbulls were not "bred to kill" they were bred to WORK - on farms, which they did quite a bit in the early half of the century, but in recent decades, they have been misused to do harm, by IDIOTS.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

92. And the dead woman was very happy with hers.

Now she can't be happy but not because she didn't want to be happy with them. In fact, she got along with them, or they wouldn't have been running loose in her house and sleeping in her bed, would they?

[Vektor]

109. If you read the story,

there's plenty of evidence to suggest the dogs were poorly trained.

See this post:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1970352&mesg_id=1970668

Also, one story about two dogs hardly speaks for the millions of pit bulls on planet earth.

It's easy to play the propaganda card here, but this could happen with any breed, and the very vast majority of pitbulls, or dogs period, do NOT maul people.

Again, I speak from years of experience with the breed.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

115. OH!! So the *real* reason is that they were not properly trained.

Every time a pit bull kills or mauls I hear the same thing: "Oh they just weren't properly trained."

So these *dogs* require some sort of special training, that magically will keep them from tearing out your throat.

I see....

[JuniperLea]

121. Proper training really only means grown with love

and affection, and taught to know who is the boss.

Obviously, you see very little.

Have a good night. I can't deal with your over-emotional nonsense. You have no clue about this topic at all.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

124. I've never had a dog that required "proper" training. You love them and that's that...

You, however, prefer to have natural-born killing machines that require special training. That's your problem. However, don't be telling me that they are delightful animals, when they're bred to kill, and are killing machines that are slowly being banned from cities. Thank God they're banned in my city.

[Vektor]

132. I cannot even believe the hysteria I am hearing.

Yes, my sweet beloved pets whom I have owned and raised my whole life who live with cats and play with children are KILLING MACHINES.

Will you please lay off with this nonsense? You have no idea what you're talking about. You're just spewing insanity.

[Mythsaje]

144. Oh, jeez...

All dogs require training. If yours have always been untrained, this means that THEY have been the boss of YOU rather than the way nature (and several thousand years of forced evolution) intended.

Don't ever get a bigger dog. Please.

[Vektor]

126. Oh my god. You are being hysterical.

Yes, it's all an evil plot.

ALL PIT BULLS ARE THE DEVIL, HERE TO KILL YOU.

:tinfoilhat:

Yes, I'm sorry to say, that is usually the case, pit bull or not. An improperly trained dog, an abused dog or an otherwise unwell dog of ANY BREED is more likely to be aggressive than a well managed dog. And yes, in the case of maulings by ANY BREED, abuse, maltreatment, or mismanagement can usually be found once a little investigation is done.

So go ahead and ignore the facts and the testimony of people that actually have lived with and trained this breed their whole entire life, and base your opinion on sensationalized stories of isolated events instead.

And while you're at it, why don't you tell yourself that all black people are criminals and George W. Bush is a great President too. Because that's what "COPS" and Fox News would have you believe, and if it was on TV it must be true.

Again. I know from experience. Raise the breed for 15+ years, and then talk to me. Until then, please stop perpetuating hysteria.

[Marrah_G]

269. I have a question

Would you say that certain breeds need to have a very alpha owner or they could be dangerous? Also do you think many people who own the breed are not educated in how to deal with them properly?

I am not for putting down the breed. But with certain breeds I think requiring owners (and dogs) to pass a special training course would be a wise way to go.

[Vektor]

286. Thanks for asking a logical question without being a hysterical ass.

Seriously. I wish I could say the same for some of the nut-jobs who have tuned in here.

I don't know if the key is so much being "alpha" as it is being patient and knowledgeable. Requiring a proper training course to own, breed, raise, or manage any animal that could potentially do damage, (yes, big dogs included) is not a bad idea, actually.

I have encountered a few aggressive dogs in my life, but none of them have been pit-bulls. Many of them are very tiny, so nobody sees them as a threat. It really has less to do with the breed and more to do with the size of the animal as far as what kind of threat they pose. A docile large dog, or a nippy small dog won't scare too many people, but a large aggressive dog can be dangerous, obviously. In order to manage any large dog, I think you just have to be confident in your skills, and consistent with the training. I have had little to no trouble with my pit bulls, they learn quickly, are people pleasers, and I've had no problems with aggression. The most aggressive dog I ever dealt with was a shepherd/dane mix, and I don't believe either of those breeds are "bad." The dog was just not well socialized. He does fine now, he came around after about a month of so of consistent training.

[Marrah_G]

309. I asked because my guy used to have Malamutes

Now those were some big dogs and if they don't know exactly who is in charge it can be bad. After his dogs passed away we looked on some Malamute rescue sites and they were very firm about their adoptive owners having had Malamutes or similar dogs before and it explained the need for the dogs to have an "alpha" type owner as well as knowing how much "work" the dogs needed to be happy.

The page made me think about how little people consider when getting a dog. They like the looks or the cool factor, but rarely consider the dog and it's breeding and what the dog needs to be a happy companion.

Pit bulls (as well as some other breeds) scare me, not because of the dogs, but rather because of the owners. They are large and powerful so the bites can do alot more damage then a terrier. I truly feel that training be a requirement, by law, especially in the case of any dogs large enough to kill a person.

[Vektor]

312. That's not an unreasonable consideration.

I have often thought there should be stricter guidelines as to who can own animals, period. So many people are irresponsible. I grew up with a Malamute. His name was King, and he lived to be 13. My family got him as a pup, and while he never was too difficult to manage, he did have an incident involving a neighbor's chicken which was not too pretty. :-(

We apologized to the neighbor, replaced the chicken, and the dog was fenced or leash walked after that. (This was in suburban MA, way before leash laws.)

Good dog, otherwise. I miss him.

[Marrah_G]

316. Hey that wasn't in Walpole was it?

I ask because a neighbors dog killed my chicken when I was little! They replaced him with a cute one the color of Peanut butter and fluff!

[Vektor]

317. No, Westport...

Whew! Glad that wasn't your chicken.

[MadHound]

123. Actually they were, in a sense, bred to be just that

Warm, cuddly, affectionate dogs. Hell, up until the the early ninties the AKC rated pitbulls as the best dog for families with children. Why? Because they are loyal, friendly, can take a lot of roughhousing, are intelligent and human friendly. They discontinued this recommendation only because all of the hysteria over pits finally forced them to.

I've always had pits or pit mixes, and every single one of them has been a gentle soul, slept with me, and were very good with children.

As experts have said and proven time and again, it isn't the breed, it is how the dog is raised and the environment it is in.

By the by, do you know which dog out there inflicts the most bites? Go do some research, you'll be suprised.

[Vektor]

135. Thanks for being a voice of reason.

To help drown out the raving paranoids.

My guess on the "most bites" thing is the Cocker Spaniel.

I groomed dogs for years, and was only bitten twice, both by Cocker Spaniels. Most of them are sweet, but these two were not. :-)

What breed have you heard?

[MadHound]

258. You are spot on. The numbers generally alternate between cockers and small poodles

Big dogs are much more mellow.

It just amazes me how dog ignorant people are around here. It has been shown time and again that it isn't the breed, it is how the dog is raised, socialized, and treated that determines viciousness. But noooo, people insist it must be the breed. When I was a child my folks had German Shepards, which at the time were the bad boy dog. People freaked to see us two toddlers out romping around with these big dogs, but they were the most gentle, loving of pets.

Now I take in pits and pit mixes, and they too suprise strangers with their docility and loving nature.

[Vektor]

283. Now tell that to some of the raging illogical psychos on this thread.

Apparently, their hysteria, paranoia, and hate-mongering trumps my actual life experiences with these dogs.

[Mythsaje]

152. Pomeranians?

LOL...

Or something similar, I imagine. Ankle biters. On the other hand, they don't kill people. That's what this hysteria is about. Given the right instigation, my pack could take down a human. We don't worry much about home invasion, I'll tell you that. But the only dog that's truly aggressive is our Pom. I call him the Pomeranian Devil. Or the Tiny Terrorist.

If someone broke into my house, they'd have to deal with the 25 pound Pom and the 55 pound Jindo. The min-pin would go hide and the Shiba would be there asking for attention.

Go figure.

[BlooInBloo]

198. "up until the early ninties" = "up until they killed too many people"?

:rofl:

[Mythsaje]

210. Until they became the bully dog du jour

and were deliberately bought and trained to be aggressive, yes.

[BlooInBloo]

211. And they became the "bully dog du jour" how? Random lottery?

[Mythsaje]

213. Partially because of their look

the urban myths surrounding their "locking jaws" and the fact that they can be a strong, dominant breed with a reputation for aggressive behavior toward other dogs. Some of this whole issue is coming STRAIGHT out of the underground dog-fighting sub-culture...dollars to donuts. The vast majority of pits I've known were owned by reasonable, intelligent folks who didn't own them to prove any kind of point (in fact, one guy I knew who didn't have any legs used to have his tow him around on his skateboard because she was good at it).

Problem is, as that CDC report points out, that banning one particular breed will simply cause people with that reasoning to find another breed and then we'll have to do it all over again next time around. Maybe we should just start licensing dog OWNERS rather than the dogs themselves.

[BlooInBloo]

215. Ah. So the chronology you would have me believe is...

(a) They look mean.

and THEN

(b) They become the "bully dog du jour". (I really think "bullied" is what you mean, but whatever - it's your phrase.)

and THEN

(c) They start killing people at many times the per capita rate of any other breed.

What, were they offended about their unjustifiably bad rep, and decided to take it out on THE MAN?

:rofl:

[Mythsaje]

218. It's numbers and training...

Get a clue, bloo.

If they're predominantly purchased by people who want a bully breed, something to increase their status as "manly men," :eyes: then the vast majority of them will NOT be well socialized or trained, and either abused or neglected, leading to serious problems down the line.

I used to work with one guy who had a pit and I told him (didn't please him OR one of the girls at work that I opened my big mouth on the subject) that he was wrong not to socialize the dog (let his friends pet the dog and what not) just because he was worried that they'd come in and steal stuff when he wasn't there. Just because the dog knows people doesn't mean it accepts that they have the right to be in its (your) territory when you're not there. A LOT of people don't understand that. You teach the dog that YOU vouch for each person when you're there and it'll learn to like people. But its own instincts will take over when you're not around. Dogs are very territorial. Okay, some dogs. My Shiba isn't, but he's a weirdo.

Anyway...the dog got aggressive later on and he told me, "man, I should've listened to you."

Yep.

[MadHound]

257. Up until the early ninties equals

Up until so many uninformed, uneducated, dog ignorant people who were simply basing their opinions off of sensationalist media raised a huge stick and the AKC didn't want the publicity.

[BoneDaddy]

146. "most americans don't understand dogs"

lol ...in a thread where people are judging all pit bulls by the plethora of deaths caused by the animals.

[Mythsaje]

157. It's the truth...

Most Americans DON'T understand dogs.

Why do you think "The Dog Whisperer" is so popular? Those of us who KNOW dogs are like "no duh." But people in general don't get dogs at all. They're NOT people. They're not cute, furry kids with funny noses. They're a different species entirely, a species modified and changed by humans to look completely different than their original progenitors, but still operating under many of the same social laws that wolves do.

Too many people treat them like they're HUMAN. They may be smart (and some of them are VERY smart), but they have their own culture which we can either adapt to our own as necessary, or ignore. Ignoring it is stupid and ignorant.

[BoneDaddy]

169. I actually tend to agree with you

I just thought it funny that you make mass generalizations about humans making mass generalizations about dogs...struck me funny bone. No pun intended.

I find a poodle dressed in a pink sweater as offensive as I find Paris Hilton still getting press coverage.

[Mythsaje]

172. LOL...

We dress our poor min-pin, but I've so far managed to keep her out of pink sweaters.

She needs clothes as much as we do, having so little fur to keep her warm.

[Marrah_G]

310. Ugh me too

I hate seeing dogs dressed up and stuffed in pocketbooks.

I agree with her though. The great majority of people get a dog because they like how it looks. They do not take the time to read up on different breeds and figure out what fits their lifestyle. They also often do not take the time for the most basic training and treat their dog like a "king" or a "queen" and then wonder why the pet is behaving badly.

[BoneDaddy]

322. I don't disagree at all )

people do the same thing with children )

[JCMach1]

254. Having been chased as a child by these 'misunderstood' dogs

on several occasions, I don't agree. Temperment can definitely be a breed specific trait.

Thank God when this happened when I was 5, my loyal and extremely gentle German Shepherd was available to lay down the law and save me.

[renie408]

32. So you don't think that there are any traits of aggressiveness which

can be generally attributed to a breed?

I find that interesting. I raise both horses and dogs. We breed GSD's. I do not consider them a 'vicious' breed, but I know that I have to be very careful who I sell puppies to. When they tell me that they are gone from home 10 hours a day, five or six days a week or that they plan to crate their dog for extended periods of time, I politely tell them that I don't think my puppies will be suitable for them. I will also tell you that, generally, quarter horses are more laid back than TB's, warmbloods are more...determined?...stubborn?, Arabs are high, etc. Within those breeds, there are individuals that are the opposite of the generalization. I have TB's that are dead as doornails and one of the stupidest horses that ever set foot on our farm was a QH. But, in general, I can see the above traits across those breeds. TB's wouldn't RUN if their flight mechanism wasn't highly developed. And flight usually equals being a little high.

I would think the same thing would be true of dogs and specifically pitbulls. There is a reason you don't see people standing around a concrete hole in the ground betting on poodle fighting. I would think that the same breeding that produced small ears that lay close to the head so that they are harder to grab in a fight would also produce a stronger fight response.

[Mythsaje]

49. They were actually bred to be LESS aggressive toward their handlers

because they didn't want to lose limbs while transporting and getting them ready to fight. That's a little known fact about the breed.

They tend to be more aggressive toward other dogs, and cats (which they view as prey) than they are toward people. In general. They DO need to be socialized and DO require a LOT of attention.

[Vektor]

Mine live with four cats...

Two of whom came in as kittens when the dogs were already established.

Never any problems.

Now Moby, the big fat cat? He has a problem with violence, and preying on the dogs. :-)

[Mythsaje]

93. Hell, MY dogs view cats as potential prey...

Even if they DO live with two of them.

Outside cats are different.

[Vektor]

99. They all live indoors.

My dogs have encountered all manner of cats and other dogs while out and about, though and have been fine. My experiences with the breed have been nothing but terrific.

[Mythsaje]

110. Huh...

Well, thankfully the neighborhood cats have learned to stay out of our yard. Primitive breeds have a very strong prey drive and while OUR cats are "part of the pack" I'm afraid that other cats are not.

I imagine that some of the pits I've known simply weren't raised around cats at all and that's why I observed what I did with regards to that.

[Vektor]

117. Could be.

There is a black lab in our neighborhood who is very mean to cats, and she's just a sweet ol' gal with everyone else. I think maybe she just never had exposure to them, and when she sees one on the street, thinks it's a small prey to chase.

The owner keeps her on a short leash and has NO idea why she acts that way, other than guessing she's never lived with a cat before, so maybe that has something to do with it.

[Mythsaje]

140. Probably... we had to learn the hard way...

We lost a couple of cats because we didn't recognize the danger. One was accidentally suffocated by one of the dogs trying to protect her.

Now the Pom and the "protector" dog get separated from the cats and the other dogs when we're gone.

[Vektor]

143. Aw, I'm so sorry.

I lost a cat to coyotes. It was awful. I learned the hard way, and don't let my cats outdoors anymore. They're fine with it, though.

[Mythsaje]

159. It was a bummer.

We had to piece together what happened, since she hadn't been torn up at all. She was just dead, and it looked like asphyxiation. The Jindo is very protective. We think she was playing with one of the other dogs and it got out of hand, so the Jindo stepped in to try to break it up.

[Vektor]

161. :-(

I'm sorry. That must have been so sad for you. :hug:

[renie408]

102. With mine, its if they run. If they run, all bets are off. If they don't, the dogs ignore them.

I just can't ever seem to explain that to the cats.

[Mythsaje]

119. Yeah...we brought a new kitten in recently...

He will NOT run from the dogs. He's actually attacked them, which really shocked the heck out of them. He's a bold little beast.

Running from the dogs is a BAD idea.

As things stand we crate the kitten when we go out and lock the dogs away from one another. One of them has epilepsy and we don't trust the Pom not to attack him in the middle of a fit. He's the dominant. The Shiba, the one with epilepsy, is an Omega. He doesn't even consider himself part of the dog pack...just the human one. Weird dog.

[renie408]

136. We have six.

An old mutt, two GSD bitches, an old Aussie, another old mutt and the rat terrier. We are going to gradually switch to all GSD's as time goes on. I have never been a fan of a breed before, but we got our oldest female GSD as a rescue dog about four years ago and I just fell in love. Then we got our daughter a female the next year. We have had one litter of puppies out of the younger female by a reallly gorgeous Hungarian bred GSD that belongs to a close friend of mine. I think that the GSD's are the smartest, coolest dogs we have ever had. I can tell my girls something and, I SWEAR, they understand it perfectly. We live on a farm, so the dogs have a big area to themselves and we don't have to bother to keep the dogs and cats separated. So far, we haven't had any cat casualties. When we first got the older female, though, she ate four of my chickens. We used to let the chickens roam free and have had to build a chicken tractor for them to keep them from getting into the yard with the dogs.

[Mythsaje]

176. My crazy pom knows language better than any dog I've ever met...

I swear, the beast can tell time too.

My Shiba remembers when he's told he gets to go somewhere the next day and will go outside and wait by the gate all day if he has to.

I know dogs understand language. I see proof of it all the time.

[renie408]

69. Tell that to this lady in Florida...oh, wait...you can't. They killed her. n/t

[JuniperLea]

86. And there is not enough information in that story

To tell us how she raised those dogs.

[renie408]

91. Right. This woman who was a bright ray of sunshine when she walked into a room

did something so abusive to these dogs that it accounts for their killing her.

Let's blame her. Because it is completely incomprehensible that two pitbulls would kill somebody otherwise.


Right.

[Mythsaje]

97. I think it was a dominance issue, honestly...

And "nice" doesn't always cut it with dogs. You can be nice, but you have to be strong as well.

[JuniperLea]

100. And not every "nice" person is really a nice person...

People are shocked to find their "nice", quiet, shy neighbor had seven bodies buried under their house, etc.

[Mythsaje]

105. There is that as well...

And even if SHE was nice, was her son?

[JuniperLea]

112. Not enough info in the story...

Not for people like us who know dogs. We only know a snapshot of their lives.

[renie408]

127. Right. She was torturing them. That IS the only explanation. n/t

[renie408]

120. I agree 100%.

But I think some breeds are more suited to little old ladies than others. Honestly, I don't consider it any more of a flaw in a pitbull to have a certain nature than I consider it a flaw in a Thoroughbred to be a little thinner skinned and a little quicker on their feet. It is a lot easier to drive a TB crazy (in general) than it is to drive a QH crazy. I don't suggest that backyard horseman with little experience and no supervision get an off the track TB. That's how a lot of good horses get ruined. But the same person could take a lot of paint horses or QH's and stick them in their backyard, ride them once a week and never know what they don't know. We get along really well with highstrung horses because I understand that what happens in the ring is heavily influenced by the way the live their lives. They need lots of time out with lots of room. They need a certain kind of diet and a steady routine. They are not for everybody.

I have to think dogs are the same way. In fact, I KNOW dogs are the same way. I do not reccommend a purebred GSD to just anybody. You have to understand dogs, have time for them and enjoy having an animal that is obsessed with you. Because they will be. I have two of them staring at me right now. And if I go to the bathroom, they will be waiting near the door when I come out. That's if they didn't actually make it in the bathroom with me.

I just think people need to be careful when they tell other people that pitbulls are just big ole puddin's that are being wrongly accused of aggression.

[Mythsaje]

134. There's a certain amount of truth to this...

It's important to establish dominance from the get-go. And it can NEVER weaken. They're NOT dogs for everyone. Then again, they're not the only breed for which this caveat should apply. In France, from my understanding, standard Poodles are considered a dangerous breed.

[renie408]

148. Poodles are mean as snakes. (if you are a poodle owner, don't even start with me)

My grandmother used to breed poodles when I was little. I was scared to death of the damn things.

The thing about establishing dominance is that some people do it naturally, without thinking about it. I was raised with dogs. We never had less than two when I was growing up. I have never bothered to 'train' my dogs. But they always do what I want them to do. They walk on a lead without pulling, they sit when I tell them to, all I have to do is walk to the door and say, "OUT" and they will come from wherever they are and go out. They all come when I call them. People will tell me how well behaved they are and say, "oh, you have done such good work with your dogs!!" I haven't done ANY work with my dogs. I am just a naturally dominant person. Whenever we watch the Dog Whisperer with Cesar whatshisface, my husband and I are usually saying, "That's just common sense." I think that's why I took to the GSD's so easily and have had such good experiences with them. Our rescue GSD had been in FOUR homes that she couldn't get along in. The GSD rescue people were saying that if she didn't find a home soon, they were going to put her down because she was too screwed up. I took her and we have been absolutely in love ever since. My husband kids around that if the house caught on fire, I would save her before I would save him. I swear, I am not sure that is such a joke.

Anyway, that long ramble precedes me saying that it seems to me the SMART way to deal with the whole pitbull thing ISN'T to try to convince people that pitbulls are 'just like other dogs'. It seems to me that the smart thing to do would be to say, "in the right hands and the right home atmostphere, pitbulls can be just like any other dog." I think it is ridiculous for anyone to insinuate that this little old lady was abusing those dogs. You are dead on. She hadn't made herself alpha. They probably weren't trying to kill her, just teach her a lesson about who was in charge. Unfortunately, she didn't hold up too well to the lesson.

[Mythsaje]

163. I can't stand poodles. Never could.

It was just my luck we ended up with a mutant Pomeranian. If he was any larger, we'd have had to put him down. He's bit my father twice and if he does it again, we may have to. No amount of socializing, training, or anything has changed him one iota. He's completely submissive to US, but anyone else is fair game in his mind.

The other dogs mostly ignore him, even if he DOES think he's in charge of them. Except the min-pin, who won't put up with it. LOL

Dogs are weird.

[JuniperLea]

98. People say stuff like that about murderers all the time

Shocking! I had no idea he was capable of something like that! He was so quiet! He could never hurt a fly!

Tell me another fairy tale.

[renie408]

125. Jesus H. Christ on a crutch. This shit is unbelievable. n/t

[JuniperLea]

263. It is when you don't understand dogs. eom

[Vektor]

51. I don't mistake tenacity and physical strength for aggressiveness.

If not abused, these are great working dogs, and high energy exercise partners. It's easy for a thug or a hoodlum to abuse those traits and encourage fighting and aggression, but I don't believe it's just the breed "making them vicious."

Any large dog could be easily lumped into the same maligned category that Pits are right now. Shepherds, Dobies, Rotties - all of them have been maligned to a degree, but sadly Pitbulls are "hot" with the thug community right now, which doesn't bode well for the breed, sadly.
(
I long for the good ol' days when Pitbulls were featured less on the evening news, (thanks to poor breeding and abuse by humans,) and more for being the patriotic face on WW2 posters, and a companion to The Little Rascals.

They used to be a revered breed. And rightly so.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

48. Pit bulls were bred to do this:

Here it is, from the ASPCA:

The Pit Bull Heritage
The pit bull’s ancestors hail from England and were brought to North America by English immigrants. These descendants were bred from bulldogs, who were selectively bred to participate in an inhumane blood sport called baiting. In this “sport,” a dog was trained to attack a bull, bear or other large animal around the face and head, and had to hang on without releasing his grip until the animal became exhausted from fighting and from loss of blood. When animal baiting was banned in the early 1800s, people began to make their dogs fight against each other instead. As this sport gained popularity, enthusiasts developed a lighter, more athletic dog by breeding bulldogs with black and tan terriers. Known as “bull and terriers,” these dogs made their way to North America to become the forefathers of today’s pit bulls.

http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=pets_pitbull

[JuniperLea]

58. You should have read the entire article...

"Having said all that, we must tell you that a well-bred, well-socialized, and well-trained pit bull is one of the most delightful, intelligent, and gentle dogs imaginable."

[Sarah Ibarruri]

73. I did... what part did you feel was less indicting? That Americans made it even stronger? nt

[Vektor]

141. Yet another example of abuse and misuse.

They were a regular staple of farms up until mid century, simply because they could herd cattle without fear, and were agile and tireless.

Bull baiting and fighting are examples of abuse of the breed.

There's also little proof that a 200 year old breed of dog is the "forefather" of todays house pets.

Why do you insist on spreading hate and prejudice against an ANIMAL? My god, don't you have anything better to do?

[JuniperLea]

20. I've known many wonderful pit bull lap dogs

And I have a good friend who rescues and rehabilitates them.

I have another good friend who now has his second pit bull... raised with love, and I'd let that dog sleep in my bed any night. Cuddles and kisses galore when I'm around that sweet beast.

It's not the breed, it's the stupidity of the owners.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

76. I'm sure! And the woman that was killed, also knew 2 lovely pit bull lap dogs.

I'm sure she spoke the same way you do. Problem is, now she's speaking that way from heaven.

[JuniperLea]

89. You have no idea how she raised those dogs...

Or how she treated them. Not one clue. There are none in the news article at all.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

95. Want to know how I treat my chihuahua?

I bathe him, walk him, feed him, put him on my belly and let him walk around on me, play ball with him, and take him to the park.

Now you tell me, do you treat those monsters trained to kill in the same way? If you do, I'd pray if I were you.

[Mythsaje]

101. One of only two breeds that ever attacked me...

Chihuahua and Dachshound...

The bigger dogs KNOW better.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

108. You know, the woman that was murdered by the pit bulls.....

.... I get the feeling she wasn't attacked routinely by those dogs. At least I don't think so or she'd have shot them. They turned on her. That's what pit bulls do. So you right now are as happy with your pit bulls, as that woman was with her pit bulls last week.

[Mythsaje]

137. I don't HAVE pit bulls...

I've fostered a couple in the past.

Let me tell you a secret about dogs. The human MUST be the boss. Always. Without question. The minute this becomes a problem, things go awry.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

142. I'm not the boss in my house. My doggy wuggy is. :-)

Of course, he's not a frikkin' serial killer monster like that creature bred to kill.

[Vektor]

147. I recommend Prozac.

High doses.

NOW. Please.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

150. I recommend toning down your excess testosterone. nt

[Vektor]

153. Again, totally misinformed to the point of embarrassing yourself.

Testosterone?

:rofl:

I'm a WOMAN.

But there you go, making assumptions based on nothing again, and being wrong.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

155. Need me to repeat it? nt

[Vektor]

160. Repeat your incorrect assumption?

Um, ok, if you haven't embarrassed yourself enough, then sure. Knock yourself out. :shrug:

[Vektor]

158. ?

[renie408]

165. Maybe you should stick to stuffed animals.

Ok, I am not exactly 'pro pitbull', but I have to take exception to 'frikkin' serial killer monster like that creature bred to kill'. Obviously, if you let your dog run your life, they aren't the breed for you.

Honestly, I am not sure there is a breed for someone who says 'doggy wuggy' and who says their dog runs their life.

[Mythsaje]

168. Chihuahua...

The Aztec chicken.

[renie408]

171. Ahhhh...chihuahua. 'nuff said. n/t

[Mythsaje]

167. You'd have your hands full with our Pom...

Much less anything larger. Of course, he's a mutant Pomeranian, but still...

[Vektor]

145. What the hell is wrong with you?

I cannot believe the amount of false information, hate, prejudice and NONSENSE you are spewing.

We are talking about ANIMALS here. Animals do not MURDER. You clearly have never raised this breed of dog, and know nothing about them. You are overreacting to bad press and actually launching a hate campaign against a breed of DOG.

What other types of prejudice do you embrace?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

154. I hate Republicans, pedophiles, and pit bulls. nt

[Vektor]

156. Two out of the three you have good reason to.

The pit-bull, likely you have limited to no experience with the breed and would change your mind if you actually met a few and saw how sweet they can be.

How could you "hate" an animal?

[renie408]

175. STOP!!

Her chihuahua is controlling her life and probably dictating all her responses.

You know you can't argue with a chihuahua.

[Vektor]

178. HAHAHA!!

I think I see what's happening here.

The dog is typing the responses, the owner is ball-gagged and hog tied in the corner, and the dog is a Napoleonic Chihuahua who recently lost a pissing contest to a pit-bull, thus harbors a searing hatred for the breed.

It finally all makes sense now. :rofl:

[BlooInBloo]

199. The same way you can "love" one. Duh.

[Vektor]

282. Um, what?

1.) I wasn't asking you.

2.) That makes no sense. Are you high?

[juajen]

291. I have never met a pit bull that I wasn't afraid of.

In the past my hubbie and I have raised St. Bernards and they never frightened me; although, they sure as heck frightened a lot of people. They could be aggressive if any of my children appeared to be threatened; but, never hurt anyone. I forgot, they did bite a lady once, who stuck her hand in our station wagon while the saints (two, one boy, one girl) were guarding our twin boys. We were at the vet at the time. She hurried in the vet's office and got a bandage. My husband apologized and volunteered to take her to the doctor; she refused, saying she shouldn't have been so stupid. Just bled a little, but I was shocked that my saints could be threatening.

[Vektor]

297. Some of that might have been caused by bad press.

You see enough stereotyping, some of it may sink in. They are really nothing to fear. Just as sweet and loving as any other breed. Maybe more so. This breed is much maligned due to human ignorance and abuse, but not certainly not because the dogs are bad.

This is one of my girls:


Unless the prospect of being licked to death scares you, nothing to fear with her. A more lovable animal I have yet to see. :-)

[JuniperLea]

107. I sure do!

Like my dear departed Cooper... he was as big and as strong as the dogs in this article...



And he never, ever hurt a living person or other animal. He was trained as a police dog... he would "take 'em down" on command, and not let go until he was told he was a good dog. He didn't make it with the police because he was afraid of loud noises... useless around guns.

My friend's pit bull is every bit as strong, and every bit as loving.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

164. You know, I would make a bet here and now that the woman killed by the pit bulls.....

had pictures of herself hugging them. I mean that. I'm not debating that pit bull owners love their pit bulls. That's been made quite clear in this discussion. I'm sure pit bulls even play ball with their owners, and that pit bulls let themselves be petted by their owners. I'm even sure pit bull owners bathe their dog. However, pit bulls are a dog breed that is dangerous. Things are wonderful with the pet, until one day something pisses off the pet... one glance he misinterprets, one hand too quickly moving, one sound from outside that alarms him, and every genetic cell it has in its body tells it to tear out the jugular of the owner, and it does.

[Mythsaje]

170. Well, if so, there'd be a LOT more dead pit bull owners out there...n/t

[Sarah Ibarruri]

173. The number of human beings attacked and killed by pit bulls seems tiny to you?

Even here in my city any time there was a dog attack it was ALWAYS a pit bull. (Which is why they're now banned here).

[Mythsaje]

179. Always? Every single time?

No one was ever bitten by a poodle, a cocker spaniel, or a pomeranian?

Pit Bulls make the news because it scares the crap out of people.

Do you not realize how irrational some of your arguments are getting? If EVERY pit bull was a bomb waiting to go off, set on its owner by some apparently insignificant thing, there wouldn't be people HERE who've been raising and training them for fifteen years.

What about that don't you get?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

182. Let's put it this way, I don't know of a case where it wasn't a pit bull....

As a result of all the attacks by pit bulls, the County passed an ordinance. The ordinance was challenged by a pit bull organization I believe. The ordinance was upheld by the court.

[Mythsaje]

184. Not just Pit Bull orgs, I'll wager...

EVERY SINGLE canine rescue group, the ASPCA, the AKC, and every other group that knows a damn thing about dogs.

And the ban went through because the sheeple were scared.

Kinda like the Patriot Act.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

186. I'm not sure, but the court upheld the county's ordinance and I was quite glad. nt

[Mythsaje]

188. Rule by ignorance...

That's the great thing about our country, isn't it?

The less you know, the louder you are.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

194. Oh so you think the rest of us should have to live with your monster killers?

You want to risk your neck? Nobody is stopping you. But why should the rest of us have to risk ours with your dog?

Thank goodness my county and the courts agreed to keep pit bulls out in the sticks.

[Mythsaje]

197. It's come up here...

And been voted down, I believe. People here actually LISTEN to people that know what they're talking about.

Imagine that.

[Kingshakabobo]

183. I really don't have a dog in this fight ....BUT.......

.....you can't argue with the fact that pits are responsible for TWICE the fatalities of the next dog on the fatality list. I would love to see those statistics weighted by breed population - I'm guessing it gets MUCH worse for the pits when you figure population.

Also, I'm hearing "pit defenders" speaking out of both sides of their mouths........"pits are lovable pets"......."but if you don't handle them correctly they're dangerous"

[Mythsaje]

185. They CAN be loveable pets...

For the right person. Loveable and needing a strong hand are not mutually exclusive circumstances.

And, yeah, they probably are more deadly than most breeds, when you consider the numbers out there and the people who seem to like them the most.

Akitas are just as potentially dangerous. But they're owned by far fewer people. I rue the day when THEY become the dog du jour.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

192. Needing a strong hand screams out, "problem animal"

I think the right thing to do is to ban them from all dense areas of population. People who want them should live out in the boonies. Also, they should be muzzled at all times except when they eat or when they're caged. I think it's monstrous that man has chosen to breed a dog in such a way so as to make him that way.

[Mythsaje]

196. Any dog bigger than a rat

needs a strong hand. In fact, they WANT a strong hand. Ask any canine expert. ANY canine expert.

[renie408]

207. Even the rats need a strong hand.

They are just easier to step on if they get fluffy.

[Mythsaje]

209. LOL... well, yeah. That's the other side of it. n/t

[renie408]

206. Seriously. Do you know ANYTHING about animals?

That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard anybody say.

Goober, dogs were bred for protection and for herding and to do WORK. Christ, I cannot believe that I am actually being backed into defending pitbulls...but it isn't the goddam dog. It is goddam idiots who call their dogs 'doggy wuggy' and let them run their lives and don't know jackshit about how to handle an animal that cause the problems. That and the gangstas that want a vicious status symbol.

Just because you aren't qualified to own anything except a miniature whatever the hell it is, don't make broad, sweeping IGNORANT comments about what the rest of us who actually understand animals should have.

[Owl]

281. Yes, totally agree.

nt

[WindRavenX]

284. our pit bull sleeps with us everynight

She's the sweetest dog we've ever had.

You're deluded.

[civildisoBDence]

287. Animal shelters are overwhelmed with pit bulls

Dog fighters who aren't as heartless as Michael Vick just dump them. Result: more dogs being euthanized so some asshole can feel like a man.

They should all be sterilized. (The pit bulls, too.)

Newsprism

[Mythsaje]

6. The comments section makes me want to pound my head on a wall...

"God put humans and pit bulls here..." Arggh! Gawd save me from stupidity! WE made pit bulls, and every other goddamn breed of dog.

I'm a fan of the breed in general. I've known some great pits in my life that weren't at all aggressive. Can't say what happened in this case but something went wrong, as it often does.

[renie408]

9. Told ya. n/t

[Mythsaje]

11. Who are you talking to? n/t

[renie408]

12. Bloo n/t

[BlooInBloo]

16. I'll get over it.

[leftchick]

60. it is weird

I have known a lot of great pits that were great pets. I suspect inbreeding, like with any other breed, it produces bad traits unexpectedly. So very sad.

[Kingshakabobo]

10. Given half a chance, pit-bulls would kill you and everyone you know. nt

[Sarah Ibarruri]

52. Exactly. They were bred to kill, not to be lap dogs and sleep with humans. nt

[Vektor]

174. Nothing less acccurate was ever said.

But thanks for perpetuating a ridiculous myth.

[Kingshakabobo]

189. tongue was partially planted in cheek............(also, a Simpsons reference)

That said, I bothered to look up the fatality statistics on the pit. You can't argue the fact they are TWICE as likely to cause death as the next dog on this list, Rots.......and THREE times as likely as shepherds...

Factor in popularity/population and i assume it looks a LOT worse for the pit.

[Vektor]

280. One set of stats that you say you found...

is hardly "beyond a shadow of a doubt" proof.

What convinces me is the fact that I own and raise these dogs, and actually know from life experience.

[BlooInBloo]

202. All priests are rapists!

Is that less accurate?

[Vektor]

279. Probably not.

But still, you said it after the fact.

Nice try, though.

Nice petulant outburst. Will you go away, now?

[lonestarnot]

15. Did she fight dogs?

Were the dogs provoked or did she try to break up a dog fight?

[Mythsaje]

25. First guess is a dominance issue...

That's often where this sort of thing starts.

[renie408]

40. But you see, when you have dominance issues with a golden retriever

they do not typically rip your throat out. They just run around and refuse to come when you call them.

[Mythsaje]

54. Attacks by goldens and labs are on the rise, actually...

Not that you'd know that from the news.

[renie408]

59. From 1979 to 1998, pitbulls were indicated in 66 fatal attacks. The next breed had 39

and was Rottweilers. Golden Retrievers were not even on the list. I heard about the Golden that killed that kid. The key here is 'that' Golden that killed 'that' kid.

Look, I don't think pitbulls are bad dogs. But to pretend that they are no different from a Golden Retriever is ridiculous.

[Mythsaje]

64. Oh, they're definitely more capable of doing damage...

I'm not disagreeing with that. I don't think they're necessarily more inclined to attack in the first place than several other breeds.

[lonestarnot]

70. I agree. They are not born with a propensity to attack.

[AlCzervik]

78. another dumb question--it always seems like there are at least 2 pit bulls in each

of these stories, does having only one pit bull instead of 2 or 3 make a difference?

[Mythsaje]

85. Important insight...

Sometimes, yes. Dogs are pack animals and it's important for them to know their place in the pack. Two dogs struggling for dominance can become a problem for the handler/owner too. I really DO wish we knew if they were fixed.

[AlCzervik]

87. ok thanks, you all have been helpful, i know jack about dogs in general.

i have a guinea pig, he's not attacking anything unless it's a carrot.

[lonestarnot]

66. They have different jaws.

[BlooInBloo]

103. And it's obvious that there are about a jillion times more retrievers than pitbulls...

... making the per capita kill rate of pitbulls WAAAY higher than anything else.

[Mythsaje]

180. How MUCH is a jillion, anyway?

Is it larger than a Brazillion?

[renie408]

187. He's right, you know.

The percentages of pitbull attacks compared to the percentage of Golden Retriever attacks are bound to be higher.

Interesting side note: I read a book last year by Temple Grandin called "Animals In Translation". It was a fabulous book and one of the tidbits I read in it was that Goldens are being bred to be so passive that there are cases of them not even bothering to defend their puppies.

[Mythsaje]

190. Well, look at the type of people who own both breeds

in general. Those who get goldens are looking for a well-mannered, family-friendly dog. Those who get pit bulls (aided by the whole "ohmygod they're dangerous killers" mindset) are all too often dumb rednecks or thugs who WANT dangerous killers rather than family dogs.

So, voila, the whole damn thing keeps perpetuating itself.

[renie408]

201. My mother has a pitbull...and a Golden Retriever.

I swear, I am not making that up. The pitbull is a rescue dog and she named it Dove and the Golden is a giant goober named Bailey.

One of the reasons that I am concerned about articles like the one about this lady is that my mother refuses to believe that Dove could ever be dangerous. But that is one of the only dogs in MY ENTIRE LIFE that has offered to bite me. She has a weird personality. I won't let me kids pet her and we all avoid looking her in the eye. If you look her in the eye, she will growl at you. And my mother drags her around the house by her skin and refuses to hear anything negative about her. You will be reading about my mother one of these days.

The Golden is just a giant moron.

[Mythsaje]

212. Oooh...yeah, you're right.

Avoidance behavior is a bad sign. The old whale-eye look usually heralds trouble. And the growling at you if you meet its eye suggests serious dominance issues.

Man...not good news.

[renie408]

217. I have my reasons for being leery of pitbulls

I will concede that a lot of it has to do with the owners. We live what used to be a rural area of upstate SC. I have seen my share of problem pitbulls. Oddly enough, I have never heard of anybody fighting them, though. Anyway, the people behind us have pitbulls that they keep in a tiny run and occasionally let out. They don't have any manners and are (I think) extremely aggressive. One of the reasons we have a fenced in yard even though we live in the middle of a seventy acre farm is to keep our dogs and cats safe from the dogs that live on the property behind us. I am sorry, I don't care what anybody says, they just aren't like other dogs.

[Mythsaje]

220. Well...

There are a lot of breeds that locking them away and not socializing them will lead them to be hyper-aggressive. Since humans feed them, they aren't afraid of humans, but they also don't feel any bond to them. In fact, if the humans that DID tend them are in any way abusive, they might feel quite the opposite--that humans are a threat.

We've run into that problem with a lot of Koreans who bring their Jindos into the country and expect to treat them the way they always have. Problem is that you can't really get away with not socializing your dog. Our Jindo isn't well socialized, but she trusts us to make the determination as to who is and who isn't okay. That's because she LIVES with us...not in the yard.

Many in rescue consider "outside" dogs a kind of neglect. It prevents good bonding between human and animal.

[renie408]

227. I know that a lot of people consider us weird

because all of our animals are 'indoor/outdoor' animals. All six dogs and all the cats. Well, the cats tend to wander between the house and the barn.

But right now I have six dogs, two kids, a husband and me, plus maybe three cats in the house. And I never notice them. Two of the dogs are asleep under the pool table in that den (tile floor and cool), two are in here with me, the rat terrier is curled up with my husband and our old fat dog sleeps with my son, so he is in his room. The dogs are less problem than the kids, to be honest. The only thing the dogs do is shed. The kids are a mess.

That is another reason I can have so many dogs and they are so well behaved. We LIVE with our animals. They are all part of the family. The shorter, hairier, less alpha part...but part of the family.

[Mythsaje]

235. Yeah, my dad thinks we're weird too...

His dog lives outside.

The only one of ours who likes being outside is the Shiba...he'll lay out there and shiver rather than come in half the time. But the other night we went to bed and forgot that he'd dodged outside after the others had their "last out" and once he realized all the lights in the house were out, he yipped to remind us he was out there. Outside, sure. Sleep outside? Uh-uh.

[Vektor]

288. Um...

I own Pit Bulls, and I am an educated health care professional who lives in an urban area. I could not be any further from a thug or a redneck.

I'm a 98 pound female, very intelligent, who has owned several types of dogs in my life, and have found through experience that pit-bulls are the sweetest, friendliest, and easiest to train.

Above all others, due to their multitude of good traits, they have become my favorite.

[BlooInBloo]

203. 1 jillion = 10^(oodles)

[lonestarnot]

62. Yes, especially since there were two dogs. Could have been other stuff too.

Heat, hunger, illness, age... :shrug:

[Magleetis]

22. I'll stick

with my Westie. Even if she did turn on me I think I could take her. I would not own a Pit.

[DemGa]

131. Great point!

Never have a dog that if it did turn, could best you one on one.

[Mythsaje]

181. That'll keep me from getting an Akita, that's for sure.

I could take a pit. Give it my left arm and sock it hard between the eyes with a hammer with the other one.

An akita, on the other hand. Eeeek. So what if they were introduced to this country by Helen Keller? She obviously couldn't see what kind of monsters they were.

:hide:

[kestrel91316]

24. My only question is this:

Since she had them since they were pups, did she ever bother to NEUTER them???

It's been my experience that hormones can make otherwise good animals pretty damned crazy at times.

[Mythsaje]

33. It's a good question...

No information in the article on that point.

[BlooInBloo]

36. Phew - you ain't kidding, sister!

Oh - you meant the dog. :blush:

[AlCzervik]

27. ok dumb question about pitbulls--humor me please--

are pit bulls just better at killing things because of what tehy are? Do they have bigger or strong jews and bigger teeth than other dogs? Are they just a stronger breed of dog then say a lab?

[Mythsaje]

35. They are stronger, in general, than a lab...

Though in recent years attacks from labs and goldens are on the rise...

Not that those tend to make the news.

[AlCzervik]

42. thanks for the info.

[BlooInBloo]

56. Got data on dog attacks by breed, weighted by how many of that breed there are?

[Mythsaje]

74. I'd have to hunt it down...

My wife would probably be better equipped to do so, but she's got too much to do tonight as it is. In fact, I should be working on something else entirely myself.

[BlooInBloo]

82. I'd be curious.

[renie408]

191. Try this.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf

Not sure if it lists the numbers of dogs in each breed, but it breaks down fatal dog attacks by breed.

[Mythsaje]

208. A well-balanced report...

Thank you.

Frankly I think it's fairly obvious that the real issue here is the dog du jour of the bully set. Right now it's pits. But it may not remain so with the breed bans going into affect.

[charlie]

219. Right

There's been a Fearsome Breed as long as I've been alive. If ain't Dobermans, it's Rottweilers. English Bulldogs weren't the badasses in old cartoons just because they were funny looking. There were always Pit Bulls in the neighborhoods, but nobody noticed them because they weren't being misused. Get rid of them and people will find out the breeds they love, like German Shepherds and Labs, can do as much savagery when knuckleheads turn them into junkyard dogs.

[Mythsaje]

221. In the 70s it WAS dobermans.

Then rotts (another great breed with a bad rep)...

My fear is that these losers will find Akitas. THEN we're in trouble. Akitas can make pits seem like puppies...in sheer size, if nothing else. I saw a puppy a couple of years ago that came up to my chest. Looked like a damn panda bear.

[charlie]

228. I know

My bro-in-law had a grizzly-sized Akita for a while. The thing was brick stupid and inscrutable, a dangerous combination (nothing makes me wary quicker than a dog I can't read, which is why I worry more when I encounter a Chow than a Pit). I gave that dog wide berth, and eventually so did my bro, so it had to go.

[Mythsaje]

233. Brick stupid?

Rare for that breed. They can be very sharp. But inscrutable, yeah. Typical of Asian breeds, which is actually my area of expertise. Very primitive. The Shiba's register genetically at about 98% indistinquishable from wolves.

[U4ikLefty]

303. True. After two Akitas, I can honestly say that they are very smart dogs.

Both of our Akitas were very family-friendly, but then again my family knows about how to live with animals.

They sometimes look at you as though they are thinking of something.

Cool dogs...I'm getting sad remembering my hairy buddies.

[renie408]

224. The thing is, I wouldn't argue with you.

I KNOW that a GSD could be dangerous in the wrong hands. They are 70 to 90 pound intelligent dogs with a strong working drive. Duh. I find them to be fantastic family dogs. But I also wouldn't tell anybody that they are no different from a lab or an Irish Setter or a Golden Retriever. They just are. It does the dog a disservice to minimize the care that has to be taken with them.

[charlie]

234. Yeah, it's funny

The business end of a dog, any dog, is no different than wild animals that scare the pants off of us. People just don't seem to consider what a responsibility that is. If I said "look at my widdle snookie-pookie-ookie" and unleashed a cranky badger, I'd get shot or go to jail. But a treats-snarfing, freshly barbered Mr Kibbles doesn't bear training or watching because... he's he's family and he's adorable.

[Mythsaje]

236. A friend of mine once pointed out

that dogs are MEANT to look dangerous. Black lips, white teeth...hackles up. I'm sure plenty of predators in the wild were quickly disabused of the notion that wolves were easy marks.

[charlie]

47. They have extraordinarily strong jaws

and loose skin, which is why they're prized for dogfighting. They're good at killing other dogs, if they're raised to do so.

[AlCzervik]

53. ok so even if they aren't trained to kill they're still stronger than other dogs--yes?

[charlie]

72. Generally, yes

The PSI their jaws can exert are something like a third to a half again more than comparably-sized dogs of other breeds. But there other dogs I'm much more wary of than pit bulls. Non-aggressive pits are usually goofy, slobbery dorks.

[Mythsaje]

77. LOL...

Goofy, slobbery dorks. Yeah, that's a pit bull all right.

[BadgerLaw2010]

315. They are about the optimal ratio for jaw strength and muscularity.

Smaller than pit bulls, the raw numbers aren't as large to do damage to dogs and other humans. Relative strength only matters in on paper.

Larger than pit bulls, the dog's biology starts to become less effecient, as all large organisms do.

They're at the perfect junction between pound-for-pound and absolute numbers.

[Cha]

37. So what the hell happened?..Poor thing!

Jeeze~!

[Double T]

41. There is MORE to this horrible story than is known or is being told.........

Pit bulls that are raised as domestic pets and treated humanly don't just suddenly attack and kill their owner. Hope someone follows through on this story to uncover the WHOLE truth.

[Vektor]

149. Thank you!

My god. A sane person on the thread. Thank you.

[Bryn]

256. I emailed this article to my best friend who lives close to

Middleburg, FL. I am in Arkansas. I told her to find out more info. I hope she will be able to find out. I think there's more to the story.

I have a service dog (hearing/signal) that is a mix of German Shepherd and Rottweiler & 101 lbs., she is very sweet and smart. There is no mean bone in her. I raised her from when she was 3-4 months old abandoned by someone else, starving and ill near dumpster. She's a very loving dog and my 5 cats don't fear her, in fact three of them are very close to her. She's now 6 and half years old. When I started to train her to become my service dog, I socialized her with animals, children, people. She gets plenty of love from me and kindness, too. Anyway, one day I went for a walk with Shane (that's her name), two poodles got loose from their owner and attacked her! She just stood there and took it. Now she's wary of poodles, though.

[MissB]

57. Sad.

May she rest in peace.

[CT_Progressive]

104. I'm stumped - How can we tie this to Vick and racism?

what?
:)

[Vektor]

166. We could incorrectly assume that all black people, like all pitbulls,

ARE BAD.

Because we all know how correct those stereotypes are.

:sarcasm:

[BlooInBloo]

204. We COULD think that was a good analogy, if we were jackass fucking stupid.

[NorthernSpy]

226. thank you -- the animal rights people have permanently alienated me with that one...

That, and the whole 'Chicken McNuggets are like the Holocaust' thing.


:eyes:

[Vektor]

289. Um, you're making no sense.

Just pointing out how stupidly paranoid and hysterical some people are. It was satirical. Sarcastic. Did you happen to see the little "sarcasm" symbol?

Sorry to have gone over your head there, genius. :eyes:

[NorthernSpy]

292. the sarcasm tag does nothing to ameliorate a fundamentally offensive analogy...

That is the problem.

[Vektor]

294. What's offensive...

is bigotry and ignorance of ANY kind.

Perpetuating hateful stereotypes, and fear based hysteria based on hype and untruths is offensive, no matter what the species of the victim.

The analogy is hardly offensive. The reality that there are actually people out there who think that way is offensive, however.

[NorthernSpy]

299. It's. A. Dog.

I want animal rights people to stop dragging blacks into discussions about pitbulls, and I want them to stop dragging Jews into discussions about chickens.


That's all.

[Vektor]

301. You can want in one hand...

and shit in the other, and see which one fills up faster.

Yes, exactly, it's a DOG. So why the hell a human would feel compelled to launch a smear campaign against a dog says more about that human and their irrationality than it does about the breed of animal they're attacking.

Maybe you feel like one species somehow deserves more "respect" than another? Hmmm.

Perhaps NO innocent living thing ought to be made a pariah? Human OR animal. Sorry, but you can want all you want, so to speak. Some of us feel like any maligned living creature should be defended.

Sorry if your selective advocacy cannot accept that.

[Vektor]

302. Dupe

[Vektor]

278. You said it.

Which means you probably must see that it's a good analogy, indeed.

Get over yourself. Your whiny word is NOT gospel.

[NorthernSpy]

238. I guess black humanity is always contested ground, isn't it?

If people don't accept your miserable pitbulls as the nice little doggies you claim they are, then whether "we" should continue to tolerate blacks will have to come up for discussion. Because revoking that tolerance is still an option.

Always, always that subtle threat.


http://www.journal-news.com/news/content/news/stories/2006/07/09/hjn070906Expulsions.html

[Vektor]

277. Wow, get satire much?

It would seem not.

Get over yourself. My dogs are fine. You're the one who is miserable.

[NorthernSpy]

293. that's not satire, just really bad rhetoric...

Get over yourself. My dogs are fine. You're the one who is miserable.

What is that supposed to mean?

[Vektor]

295. Hahaha. That's priceless. No, it's perfectly clear, and is indeed satirical.

It's only "bad rhetoric" to you because it points out how ignorant your bias is.

It's actually spot on.

I think it's pretty clear what I meant. There's noting wrong with pit bulls. They are hardly "miserable dogs."

You have to be pretty miserable to talk shit about an animal, though, especially when it's because of breed based bias and total ignorance. Don't you have anything better to do? Until you spend 15+ years of your life raising this breed, you need to accept that you have no basis on which to make your obnoxious claims.

Think about it. You are stooping to smear a DOG.

[NorthernSpy]

304. why do you think these pitbulls turned on their owner?

She'd had them since they were pups. It seems she really loved those dogs and took good care of them. So why did they kill her?

I think that most of the pitbull's self-styled defenders are actually its worst enemies. Because it is they -- you -- who have misguidedly promoted the idea that these dogs are suitable as family pets, and they're not.

So people open their minds and bring that little pitbull puppy home. Three years later, one of the kids is in the hospital with half his face torn off, and the parents are trying to figure out how sweet little Sharkie could possibly have done this.


:eyes:

[Vektor]

305. You are making an ass of yourself.

Why did these two pit bulls "turn on their owner"?

"These two" out of literally MILLIONS OF THIS BREED?

I dunno, Sherlock, why don't you read the part where the son brags to the 911 dispatcher "I've got two purebred red-nosed pit bulls here."

And "Don't get out of the ambulance, they'll attack you." This stupid asshole KNEW these dogs were dangerous and you can be damn sure that he made them that way. There is NOTHING in this article that implies those dogs were "well raised" or "loved." The only implication provided by the article is that the kid treated the dogs like status symbols and knew they were aggressive - and was pretty proud of that. Chances are, the Mom didn't raise the dogs at all. The kid just brought them home, and totally mismanaged them. Could have happened with any breed.

Let me tell you something.

This shit:

"So people open their minds and bring that little pitbull puppy home. Three years later, one of the kids is in the hospital with half his face torn off, and the parents are trying to figure out how sweet little Sharkie could possibly have done this."

...is hypothetical, propagandized, sensationalist ranting BULLSHIT. The kind of bilge ignorant, uninformed people spew when they are trying to spread hate and fear. It is so obvious how ridiculous and insane this is that I needn't point it out further.

What I am telling you, however, is FACT based on fifteen years of experience with this breed. In other words, a professional testimony. You can go and spread your hysteria and irrationality all you want, until you're blue in the face and your genitals fall off, but it will not hold a drop of water against the testimony of people who actually KNOW FROM LIFE EXPERIENCE.

You raise the breed for 15 years, then maybe you can try to act like you know something.

Until then, give it a rest. You really are making an ass of yourself.

Edited to add: You really have a lot of nerve stating they are not suitable as family pets. Not only is it obvious that you have never owned one (therefore have no leg to stand on with that argument) but I'd suggest you try telling that to the countless families who DO have them as pets, and always have, like mine, and see how hard you get laughed at. No problems whatsoever with any pit-bull I have ever met - living with kids, cats, rabbits, etc, until the dog dies of old age. Not a single attack to speak of. I've seen with my own eyes WAY more pit bulls living harmoniously with families than you have read sensationalized news stories about abused dogs who snap because of HUMAN ignorance and abuse, I can guarantee you that.

The mismanaged, abused animals who do attack are far out numbered by the ones who never have any problems. How do you not see that?

[NorthernSpy]

308. "until (my) genitals fall off"?

It never fails. People I talk to online invariably assume I'm a guy. It doesn't offend me or anything, it's just kind of curious.



As for the rest of your post, okay: you feel very defensive about your dogs. I get it.

[Vektor]

311. Huh? It could happen to either gender.

I never assumed you were a guy. If had assumed that, I would have said "dick." I never assumed anything about your gender.

How does "having genitals" make you a guy?

As for the rest of my post, I'd say you don't get it. I'm very knowledgeable about my dogs. You have apparently accrued some misinformation about this breed somewhere along the line, and I am sharing my personal, professional experience with you, in hopes of enlightening you. Hardly defensive. Just knowledgeable.

[NorthernSpy]

314. my actual procreative organs are inside the pelvis, and can't really "drop off"...

... so your turn of phrase just kinda struck me as referring more likely to a guy.

That doesn't really matter though.


But yes, your posts about pitbulls do sound defensive in the extreme. Given that you leapt straight from objectionable rhetorical ploys to insults regarding my IQ, I think that you have very little chance of "enlightening", or of doing anything other than further alienating everyone who doesn't already agree with you.

[Vektor]

319. Well there is the matter of external genitalia...

And tissue falling off, but we needn't go there. It's not pretty. I've seen it working in the ICU - necrotizing fasciitis. Horrible stuff. I never referred to reproductive organs proper, though.

I don't recall ever actually insulting your IQ, and I maintain, I'm not so much defensive as simply stating what I know, which could be deemed defensive by someone who doesn't agree, or want to hear that version of events.

My satirizing the ignorance of those who make broad brush assumptions about situations based on little to no factual information was anything but "objectionable rhetoric" - but again, I can see how someone who is dead set against hearing an opposing viewpoint (or a factual firsthand account) might be tempted to call it that.

My professional testimony is not likely to alienate someone genuinely interested in the truth, but might very well cause someone hell-bent on perpetuating an unfair stereotype balk.

I tried to lend an experienced viewpoint to a thread populated by people spewing fear and hysteria. Maybe that was my mistake. Rationality is lost on some folks.

[HughMoran]

151. oh, darn

it's a risk one takes with such powerful dogs.

[BlooInBloo]

162. WOOOT!!!! PITBULL WARS!!!!!

:rofl:

[upi402]

195. Grrrrr

teeth an' ebrything!

[earth mom]

216. Poor lady. Meanwhile people defend these viscous dogs-stupidity reigns supreme.

:freak:

[Mythsaje]

222. Viscous dogs?

Does that mean they don't flow properly?

[renie408]

229. No, it means that they are honeys. n/t

[eagler]

244. I think those are the ones that slobber alot

[earth mom]

271. Opps-should read vicious

:silly:

[Vektor]

300. This coming from someone...

who has a paranoid, irrational bias against an ANIMAL, and cannot even spell "vicious".

:eyes:

Who exactly are you implying is stupid?

[JVS]

230. better her than some innocent bystander

[kwassa]

231. "Pit Bull-type dogs and Rottwielers were involved in more than half of these deaths".

of all deaths that occurred from dogs.

60%.

Look at the chart at the end. See who has the most bites. No surprise there.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf

[Mythsaje]

237. Because of sheer population and the types of people

who've been buying them up like they're going out of style.

They're not even the most dangerous possible breed out there--they're just the ones that attract the wrong kind of owners.

[kwassa]

239. I think they should be banned.

My opinion.

[blonndee]

242. Not surprising, uninformed "opinion." n/t

[eagler]

243. Read and heed. If this doesn't have an effect nothing will.

http://pit-bulls.christianfunfair.org/attacks.htm

[blonndee]

245. THAT's supposed to be an informative, credible source? Bwahahahaha!

Again, the sad problem of uneducated, knee-jerk "opinions."

[eagler]

246. Totally credible. Check out all the sources listed. Too many.

[blonndee]

247. Mmm-hmmm. Do your own research with real sources and then we can talk.

This shit is ridiculous and beneath contempt.

[eagler]

249. My guess is that you aren't even checking out the sources listed.

I don't think you can get past the name of the website.

[blonndee]

252. Ditto, dear. But I'm not the one with the credibility problem now am I? n/t

[eagler]

255. Unless you can provide more credible examples to the contrary

I'm going with these. Any dog can be a warm loving pet but it only takes one time when a child is involved. As pits have become more popular as pets I'm sure the number of bad incidents have also increased, however if you are a diehard owner you are naturally going to be more partial to the breeds (and defensive of).

[Mythsaje]

259. You may find THIS interesting...

And far more credible than YOUR site. Well, at least, *I* do. I have no idea what you may or may not find credible, all things considered.

http://www.nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/canineaggression.asp

http://www.nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/studies.asp

[eagler]

267. I did find them interesting , thanks

Sometimes the old Mob mentality takes over when a subject like this surfaces. Pit bulls certainly do have the capacity to be vicious, but so do many other types of dog. Just by examining the the various sources, it does appear pitbulls are a much more popular breed than they were say 30 years ago, therefore there are more of them and consequently more pit bull attacks. But it cannot be denied that there is a huge human factor - in how they are raised,and the common sense which needs to be employed by the owner.

[Mythsaje]

275. Right...

I'm actually starting to lean toward the (gasp) idea of licensing the owners, not the dogs. At least they could be required to be educated and vetted first.

A layer of bureaucracy we really can't afford, sure...but I would really get behind something like this before a universal breed ban when it's ignorant people that are the true menace.

[renie408]

261. Do you consider the CDC a 'real' source?

According to the CDC, of a total of 180 attacks by purebred dogs, Pitbulls accounted for 66 of the fatal dog attacks in the US from 1979 to 1998. The next highest total was by Rottweilers at 39, then German Shepherds at 17, Malamutes at 15 and Dobies at 12. The other four breeds listed had less than ten attacks over that 20 year period. Pitbulls account for 37% of fatal attacks and are not even listed in the top ten most popular dogs in the US, according to the AKC. When you consider that Pitbulls represent the highest number of fatal attacks while not being one of the more popular breeds of dog, it stands to reason that Pitbulls are more likely to fatally attack people than, say, Labradors or Golden Retrievers.

It is disingenuous to claim that Pitbulls are no different than other dogs. I would consider all the breeds on the list of purebreds that have fatally attacked breeds which need to be owned by well informed and experienced owners. The way to clean up a Pitbull's reputation isn't to pretend that he is just like a Boston Terrier. The key is to inform people and try to raise the conscienceness of people who own them.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf

[Mythsaje]

248. Now THERE'S an irrefutable source...n/t

[johnaries]

306. The Clifton Report was completely debunked.

It was done by a MAGAZINE EDITOR, for chrissake! It was unscientific and totally biased, intended only to sell magazines.
Google "breed specific legislation". ALL experts agree that dog breed has nothing to do with dog attacks.

edit to add some links debunking Clifton Report:
http://lassiegethelp.blogspot.com/2007/08/dangerous-breeds-dog-bite-statistics.html

http://lassiegethelp.blogspot.com/2007/08/pit-bulls-dog-bite-statistics-and.html

[Quantess]

253. I fully agree! It's the wrong types of people....people who shouldn't have ANY dogs,

who are attracted to "tough", so-called "dangerous" breeds. This phenomenon is mostly around Pit Bulls, but also, sadly, includes Rottweilers, who are not traditionally bred for aggression.

My boyfriend and I lovingly raised a mostly-Rott from a puppy, and what an excellent dog he turned out to be! Such a social butterfly! And so smart! Then I broke up with my boyfriend and he had full custody of Milhouse (except weekends, LOL) because of housing circumstances.

So when I got the chance, I adopted an abandoned, obviously purebred Rottweiler from County Animal Control. I really picked a diamond in the rough! He was well trained, obedient, and seemed very sweet.
He had been starved, obviously mistreated, maybe had been abused. He had a scar around his neck. We suspect he had done a stint as a junkyard guard dog, and had escaped when he could finally break free, because of weight loss.
Lincoln really impressed me when I met him! He had been excellently trained as a puppy. Lincoln knew a lot of commands, and he really was a good dog overall.

Lincoln did have an underlying anger problem, however. When he first met Milhouse, Lincoln viciously raped and assaulted him, and basically tried to kill him, going for the face and throat. I got bit on the hand pretty badly when I broke up the fight by knocking Lincoln on the head with a cooking pot. I forgave both dogs, because I don't honestly know which one bit me! Actually, it was probably Milhouse who bit my hand out of confusion.

Months later, I lovingly gave Lincoln a bath, which he seemed to like pretty well. But, when I got out the hair dryer and I began finger combing his hair...on his neck, under his chin, were some things that I didn't think belonged there. He growled at me, but I ignored him. I kept picking and ignored his growling...bad news...but I foolishly ignored his growls. I kept picking at these dangly things that seemed stuck to his neck, sort of like warts, or leftover wads of chewing gum. He growled at me, but I ignored his growls. He snapped so suddenly! He bit my breast, then tried to bite my face, but my hands were already in place.

I soon forgave Lincoln, but I was afraid to ever groom him again. I continued to bathe and groom him, but at the local dog-wash, not at home. Lincoln died of cancer on his face in 2006. Milhouse passed away a few months later of an unexplained neurological disease.

The bottom line is, Lincoln, my County Animal Control Adoption dog, was born with winning chances, probably started out as a #1 dog, but, some malevolent, ignorant, humans apparently mistreated him and gave him a mean streak. Lincoln was a good dog at heart, but, he would have been a better dog if some asshole hadn't ever abused him.

[renie408]

262. The bottom line is...when ANY dog growls at you, don't ignore it.

All dogs are good dogs at heart. No dog is born mean. They are born with different tolerance levels, different drives and different ideas about what is important.

A labrador can be a big pain in the ass to take on a walk in the country. They consider chasing birds to be a high priority. That's what they have been bred for. My Aussie was a pain to have around the barn when he was a puppy. He thought his raison d'etra was to herd the horses. All the time. Herd the horses. That's what he had been bred for. That is the direction his drive took him. My GSDs are actually easier to take on walks and they might have considered chasing the horses, but they were quicker to take a hint. But their job is to keep an eye on the family. Without the proper socialization, I can see where they would eat people they found threatening. So we have worked hard on socializing them. But I would never pretend that they are 'just like any other breed'. They aren't. They are large, strong, alert, SMART dogs with an agenda. They really aren't for everybody. I reckon Pitbulls are the same way. In the right hands, they can be good dogs. But they need to be in the right hands. They are not a breed that is for everybody. And by the wrong hands, I don't even mean people who are abusive. I am talking about people who think that because Buttons is mostly sweet and wiggles when they come home that he would never think about biting or attacking them. So they do something that really pisses Buttons off, ignore his attempts to alert them to the fact that he is pissed and Buttons kills them because Buttons is 50 pounds of solid muscle bred to latch on and rip something to pieces if he is going to bother biting it.

[Imagevision]

250. Usually it takes the loss of life before laws/changes are made, but go figure huh?!!

[Quantess]

251. Question for Responsible pit bull owners:

Of all dogs, what made you want to get a Pit Bull?

[skypilot]

265. I'm curious about this as well.

I've seen lots of pit bull threads on DU and I've read lots of posts with people saying how loyal pit bulls are. Aren't lots of dog breeds known for loyalty? What else is it that attracts people to this particular breed?

[williesgirl]

270. My 1st experience with a pit was when a friend of my daughter's had to give up

his and my daughter took her in supposedly for "awhile" til he could move out of his apartment. Then, I moved her out to the country about 25 miles from me in her own home and Alize became hers permanently. The house was on a mountain, very remote, and she was only 21, single, living alone, and on disability for mental health reasons. I couldn't afford to get her a place in the city and she really wanted to become independent. I have to say I would never had gone thru with this if she didn't have her dog. I installed an elaborate security system, but it was Alize that made her feel safe and allowed me some peace of mind. My daughter thrived during this time and I fell in love with her dog. She was always around my house, playing with my Pug and Boston Terrier, and loving life being able to run freely in a 4 acre fenced in area I have surrounding my house. My daughter also had plenty of room for her to run freely - an acre fenced in.

Because of my experience with Alize, this year I agreed to foster another pit - Miz Jezebel - and just recently agreed to be her "forever home". see my post below. Didn't see your question before I posted that.

[uppityperson]

276. She was a well trained sweet shelter dog who got along very well

with other dogs and people. She disappeared recently, my thought is someone shot her or stole her to train to fight. I hope she got hit by a car or shot, am heartbroken thinking of her forced to fight. Actually I am talking about a sib's dog. I have another type of big headed mix who is fuzzy so not so scary looking.

[flvegan]

260. I LOVE pit bull threads on DU

It's like a 10-car pileup of breed bashing stupidity.

[B3Nut]

272. Tell me about it.

I have to say the hysteria gets old after a while. But I'm much more tired of people owning dogs of whatever breed that insist on treating them like either a small, furry human or a pushbutton appliance, or who actively encourage bad behavior. And don't get me started on dogs as status symbols... :mad:


Deuce CGC


Leila-bug


Cain the Veterinary Medical Disaster (good thing my wife's a vet tech and gets a discount!)


Gibson the Itty Bitty Teacup Pittie (a big puppy who became extremely ill and never grew any further after that, he's stuck at 37 pounds)

I will say this about Pit Bulls though....when they fart...DAYUM! (though my American Bulldog is even worse...holy socks can he stink up a room!)

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

[flvegan]

273. Good looking pups

I've got 7 rescue pits in my house right now waiting for homes, and we've probably placed a couple hundred in the last couple of years.

The hysteria is moronic. Moranic?

[Kool Kitty]

298. My son's dog, Olive, is a rescued pit.

We love her. She is a very good girl. She'd lick your face off if you let her.

[Marrah_G]

318. Question for you

Are the people adopted them well screened to be able to specifically handle a pit?

What I saw on the Malamute rescue site as requirements to adopt was wonderful and I wished that sort of thing applied to all dogs being purchased or adopted.

[flvegan]

320. Our adoption application is 5 pages long

Much of it informational. We screen extremely carefully. We get veterinary references and ask for information about prior pets. We take the dog to them, do the home inspection, etc. If they have another dog, the two dogs meet in neutral territory. Also, no dog leaves our rescue until I am confident, personally, that they are fit to be in a situation outside of this one.

Additionally, no overzealous dog goes to a home with small children, no dog with strong prey drive goes to a home with other small pets.

We turn down far more folks than we even consider.

[Marrah_G]

321. That is really good to hear

It's a shame they can't extend something like that to all pet ownership.

[kwassa]

266. The dogs that are most responsible

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/statistics.html

Merritt Clifton, editor of Animal People, has conducted an unusually detailed study of dog bites from 1982 to the present. (Clifton, Dog attack deaths and maimings, U.S. & Canada, September 1982 to November 13, 2006; click here to read it.) The Clifton study show the number of serious canine-inflicted injuries by breed. The author's observations about the breeds and generally how to deal with the dangerous dog problem are enlightening.

According to the Clifton study, pit bulls, Rottweilers, Presa Canarios and their mixes are responsible for 74% of attacks that were included in the study, 68% of the attacks upon children, 82% of the attacks upon adults, 65% of the deaths, and 68% of the maimings. In more than two-thirds of the cases included in the study, the life-threatening or fatal attack was apparently the first known dangerous behavior by the animal in question. Clifton states:

If almost any other dog has a bad moment, someone may get bitten, but will not be maimed for life or killed, and the actuarial risk is accordingly reasonable. If a pit bull terrier or a Rottweiler has a bad moment, often someone is maimed or killed--and that has now created off-the-chart actuarial risk, for which the dogs as well as their victims are paying the price.

Clifton's opinions are as interesting as his statistics. For example, he says, "Pit bulls and Rottweilers are accordingly dogs who not only must be handled with special precautions, but also must be regulated with special requirements appropriate to the risk they may pose to the public and other animals, if they are to be kept at all."

[williesgirl]

268. I have a pit that I fostered for 6 months before giving in. She's great w/my Pug and Boston Terrier

is funny, very vocal (she "talks" to you when she wants to play or eat) and lovable. That said, I live on a mountain with 6 acres, 4 of which are fenced in around the house. She's actually fearful in strange settings. When riding in the car, the minute I pull into a parking lot, she hits the front floorboard and stays there until I pull out again. My other dogs are on the seats watching everyone and waiting for me, but not Jez. She's very gentle, as evidenced by my Vet actually putting his hand down her throat to make sure she had no obstruction when she had a slight cough a month ago. I was amazed when he did that. He said she's more gentle than 80% of the small dogs he sees. I do bring her in their side door for visits so she can't either get upset or upset others in the waiting room. This was a precaution on my part due to her breed's reputation, not her behavior.

And, yes, they all sleep with me. As an aside, I had cocker spaniels for years and dearly loved both of them. They each died of old age around 18 yrs old, but I always watched them closely. They did have a tendency to bite when upset. Yet, no one was afraid of them because they were cute cockers. I now have to kennel Jez when my family visits because they won't come near her, yet haven't met her. Go figure! I just go with the flow since it was my choice to foster and then keep her. I'm not trying to change the world's opinion of pitbulls, just keep my own safe and happy and WELL BEHAVED.

[Iris]

274. ok, I know this is a thread that is debating owning pit bulls,but I must say the SONS in this story

are amazing. Calm and straightforward. Making sure no one else gets hurt - telling the 9-11 operator not to allow anyone to get out of the vehicle because they dogs will attack them.

[NorthernSpy]

296. I know! What's up with that?

In addition to the brothers' seemingly half-hearted attempts to rescue their mother (no more than token injuries to either of them, and this was their MOTHER being mauled to death for fux sake!), there was that 911 call they made.


The guy informs 911 that the dogs are "full-blooded red-nose pits" (yes, always nice to know the pedigree status of the beast that's chowing down on ones Mom), and then tells them that when they do send help, not to get out of the ambulance, what with those vicious dogs about and all...

Peculiar, to say the least.

[hedgehog]

290. HAs anyone considered the possibility that when a breed becomes popular,

all the dogs gets bred regardless of temperament? My mother maintains that cocker spaniels used to be a good dog, but that when they became popular back in the fifties there was such a demand that they were all bred. Some of them had nasty dispositions, and so did their pups. After a while, you didn't dare pet one because they tended to bite. Notice that some people here are relating incidents involving Labradors, golden retrievers and poodles. All of these dogs have been very popular in the recent past.

Here's my take on pit bulls: some people are trying to breed aggressive pit bulls either for dog fights or for protection or prestige. Curently, there is a big demand for pit bulls. Who can tell whether or not that cute little puppy has a grand sire that was a fighting dog? Unlike a miniature poodle, a bite from a pit bull can be very serious. Unless you can confirm the bloodline for temperament, why take the risk? Why not just go down to the pound and select a dog with a good temperament?

[PretzelWarrior]

307. why did they kill the dogs? no one should take life

because a life was taken. they should have been housed for years in a maximum security kennel.

[varkam]

324. Uh...probably because they were attacking the deputy...

There is a pretty major difference between killing someone as a means of retribution and killing someone in self-defense.

[DS1]

313. LIES!! There's no such thing as Pit Bulls, they don't exist as a breed. I know because dog owners

tell me so.

LIES!