Is Salt Lake Mall killer a "law abiding gun owner"?

[Proud2BAmurkin]

Odds are yesterday he was what the freeptards would call a "law abiding gun enthusiast"

http://kutv.com/topstories/local_story_043212315.html

[DesertRat]

1. What a tragedy

:cry:

[Rage for Order]

2. Were the Hutus law abiding machete owners?

How many hundreds of thousands were killed with machetes? When someone decides they want to kill people, they'll find a way to do it. Guns, knives, lead pipes, baseball bats... humankind is quite innovative when it comes to finding ways to inflict death and suffering.

[nonconformist]

4. You can walk into a Mall and take out dozens in seconds with a machete?

Impressive.

[BushOut06]

5. Nope - neither did this person

This person did not walk into a mall and take out dozens of people in "seconds" with a shotgun.

Actually, taking out lots of people with a machete would be easier. Don't have to worry about reloading, aiming, gun jamming, etc. Would be much easier to run around hacking people.

[nonconformist]

7. He could have, with a better gun. nt

[BushOut06]

8. Oh, please - why let facts cloud a gun-debate?

Sure, he "could have." I suppose he COULD have brought in a fully automatic M-60 machine gun, and simply mowed down dozens of people.

Like I said to the OP, I have a 12-gauge shotgun. If you want to volunteer to come take it away, please let me know!

[nonconformist]

9. Hey man, I don't have any problem with responsible gun ownership

I grew up in a family of hunters.

My POINT is that whenever something like this happens, someone always comes along with the "they could do that with a steak knife too" defense, which is ridiculous. You are simply not capable of mass carnage in a public place with a hand-held sharp object. Granted, I was speaking more in general than pertaining to this particular case, but I stand by what I said.

[Rage for Order]

11. It's not ridiculous

There are any number of readily available things than can inflict mass carnage in a public place. The point is that there are inherent risks that come with living in a free society. We can either allow the actions of a few to dictate the rights of many, or we can attempt to mitigate these risks with things like background checks. 20 gallons of gasoline can inflict mass carnage, and it is readily available to anyone of any age with no ID or background check required. Should people be allowed to purchase fuel?

[nonconformist]

12. I never said that people shouldn't be allowed to purchase guns

Much less fuel.

I just simply don't agree with the "dude could've done that with a lead pipe" defense.

[Oeditpus Rex]

16. Except

a lot of people could outrun a machete.



Well, unless he threw it at 'em.

[Massacure]

18. That is a terrible assumption to make.

I wouldn't bet my life on it.

[Oeditpus Rex]

20. Why?

If someone's swinging a machete, you've got to be within about three feet of them to be injured. If they throw it, even if it takes off someone's head, the assailant is then unarmed.

With a firearm, you can take out anyone within range as long as you can keep reloading.

:shrug:

[Massacure]

23. Well if the person with a machete is 20 years old, he can probably outrun a lot people

It seems kind of silly to assume that a person with a machete is going to run slow.

[Oeditpus Rex]

24. I'm not assuming that

I'm reasoning that someone being attacked by a machete-wielding maniac can at least attempt to get away from them. That's much more difficult when the weapon is a firearm.

[BushOut06]

27. Where are the dozens of people who were killed tonight?

Despite having a gun that is so easy to kill lots of people with, it looks like this guy only killed five. If I have a sharpened machete, in a crowded environment like a mall, it wouldn't be that hard to hack several people to death in a short amount of time. Your assumption is that everyone is going to react like a specially trained soldier, with lightning reflexes. In reality, that's pretty far from the truth - many people would be frozen in fear, and quite a few others would get stuck or slowed down enough to attack.

These five deaths are tragic, but please don't delude yourself that this couldn't have happened with a knife, machete, or sword.

[Oeditpus Rex]

33. Now you're telling me what my assumptions are

Buh-bye. :hi:

[nonconformist]

29. All things considered.....

If you had to be 20 feet away from a machete-wielding homicidal maniac or 20 feet away from a gun-wielding homicidal maniac, which one would you choose?

[Edweird]

48. I would choose the gun wielding idiot.

20 feet is nothing. In the heat of the moment you could cover that real estate in no time. I would stand a better chance if they had a gun over a knife. If both of us are holding the gun, I'm not getting shot. If both of us are holding the knife, I'm gonna bleed to death. In 20 feet or less, knives can be worse than guns, especially with someone who is motivated and/or trained.

[Virginia Dare]

40. You can run from a machete much easier than you can a gun..n/t

[Rage for Order]

6. Take out dozens in seconds? No, but neither did he

From the link:

..."perhaps killing as many as five people, police and witnesses say."

I could take out 5 people with a machete though. I couldn't do it in "seconds", but nowhere does the article mention this guy did it in "seconds" either. In fact, he had to reload at least 3 times if he did this with a shotgun, because shotguns don't come with 20 round clips. Well, some do, but you have to be in the military to get them.

[Virginia Dare]

41. You'd have to get them all into an enclosed room, and while

you're hacking at one, three or four of them could still overpower you, depending on their ages and physical abilities. I guess I'm thinking it would be hard for one person to take out that many people with a machete in a mall.

[leftofthedial]

44. If thousands were being murdered with machetes in the US every year

I'd be in favor of regulating them too

[BushOut06]

3. 2nd post you've started about this - what is your point?

Seriously, please let us know. I have a 12-gauge shotgun in my house. I'm a law-abiding American citizen. Do you want to come and take it away?

[not_a_robot]

13. Are you threatening to kill him?

Or to shoot him?

[BushOut06]

15. Why would you imply that?

Like I said in my other response to you, if someone breaks into my house, then I have every right to defend myself.

[not_a_robot]

22. So?

I noticed you didn't say no.

And I'm not the one who implied it you are:

"Seriously, please let us know. I have a 12-gauge shotgun in my house. I'm a law-abiding American citizen. Do you want to come and take it away?"


It's pretty obvius that you are threating to kill people that 'want to take your gun away'.

[BushOut06]

25. Yeah. It's really that obvious, isn't it?

"Do you want to come take my gun away" - I can see how that would be interpreted as "I want to kill people". :sarcasm:

I was asking a serious question of the OP, who seems to have cut-and-run without addressing any of the responses to his flamebait. Does he want to come take away mine (and every other law-abiding DUer's) legal firearms away? Does he propose that the state come and disarm us?

[fishwax]

34. he didn't imply any such thing

:eyes:

[benEzra]

10. Half of "law abiding gun enthusiasts" are DEMS AND INDIES...

a fact you might keep in mind before calling your fellow DU'ers "freeptards."

[Edweird]

14. He's a murderer.

A dead one at that. But he may very well have been law abiding until he started shooting.

[Oeditpus Rex]

17. Everyone is law-abiding

until they commit their first crime.

[Big Pappa]

19. You

beat me to it.

[Edweird]

21. That is exactly my point.

[BushOut06]

26. Do you believe in punishing people before they commit a crime?

Honestly, your post practically assumes that everybody is a criminal, that there are those who have committed crimes, and those who haven't committed their crime yet.

Hell, forget about background checks - we're ALL criminals!

[Oeditpus Rex]

28. LOL!

Yeah, that's what my post assumes. :rofl:

[BushOut06]

30. Well then, please elaborate

"Everyone is law-abiding until they commit their first crime"

Do you believe that American citizens who have never committed a crime should be allowed to own firearms of any sort? Or do you believe that owning firearms is simply too dangerous, as any law-abiding citizen could easily become a criminal? Do we assume that any given American could become a criminal?

[nonconformist]

31. Why is it when anyone points out the fact that guns are, indeed, lethal

particularly lethal compared to other weapons (short of bombs), they are accused of wanting to take everyone's fucking gun away? In the vast majority of cases, that's not even remotely true.

[Oeditpus Rex]

32. I'm laughin' myself silly

:rofl:

From a simple, logical statement, I get grilled about my stance on the Second Amendment et al.

Lemme clue you in to something: Not everything has a hidden meaning, even in GD.



But, to answer your questions, I support the Second Amendment.

[BushOut06]

36. Well if you haven't already put me on ignore, allow me to apologize

I don't need to tell you what a highly charged topic this is, and last night I might have been jumping the gun a bit. If I misinterpreted your post, I apologize.

Heck, you can see where I had someone questioning whether I wanted to kill someone based on a "cold-dead-hands" type post.

[Swamp Rat]

35. Damn!

I know Trolley Square. :wow:

[The Straight Story]

37. Ummm - welll -- uhhh - DUHHH he killed people, he is NOT LAW ABIDING

Good thing we had that there law in place vern, the one about not a killing folk - it sure saved em all didn't it.

We should have made a few more laws, if you kill with a gun you get more time. If you use bullets in a gun, more time. And on and on. That surely would have factored into his rational thinking on the killing spree....


anti-gun stuff I see sometimes just makes me sick as hell...

[Scout]

43. no law EVER prevented ANYTHING ... no one says laws prevent crime

they are there to deal with people after a crime has been committed.

DUH

are you trying to say that since laws against killing people don't prevent the killing of people, that we should just get rid of the laws then?

[The Straight Story]

46. No - the simple point is - Obviously he was NOT a law abiding citizen (nt)

[marions ghost]

38. malls are dangerous places

someone I know got killed outside a mall getting into her car before Xmas. The man got her handbag, then just shot her. The family is just left to ponder why their loved one can't go shopping without being in grave danger.

The criminally insane are walking the streets and they are armed.

[Junkdrawer]

39. "and they are armed"....to the teeth...

And God forbid we limit legitimate gun purchases to 1 or 2 per month to try and stop the flow of black market arms to these nuts...

[mainegreen]

42. I heard he was also a law abiding trench coat wearer as well.

Your point?

[progressivebydesign]

45. What do we expect with a culture SATURATED in violent entertainment?

I grew up watching TV and movies.. but it was a few decades or so ago. Unless you have something to compare it to, you cannot fully grasp HOW much violence is dominating our "entertainment" and culture. It's how they solve problems in all the popular media.. kill. I'm always shocked when I happen to catch a few minutes of broadcast TV. EVery other commercial is for a show or movie that is ultra violent.

Guns would not be such an issue if we did not bathe in violent entertainment daily. Kids are raised on it.. and we're shocked when someone does something like this?

Media and entertainment DO affect our culture... if not, then the ad industry would be out of business. All it takes is one disturbed/confused/angry person, access to weapons, and a diet of violent images, to create a crime like that. It's just incredibly sad.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

47. My father was shot and killed by a "law abiding citizen" with a legal gun.

Which would not have happened if the shooter had not had a gun available.