The cruelty of lethal injection

[Lyric]

Setting aside for the moment the arguments about whether we should allow our government to have the right to kill us, I'd like to talk about lethal injection.

Let me say right up front--*my* father was murdered; brutally, horribly, and randomly. When death-penalty advocates talk about "the victim's families", they're talking about people like me. I didn't *need* to see someone die in order to get past my father's death, and I have no respect for that particular argument. Now, on to the point.

I've believed for years that lethal injection has the potential to be inhumane and excruciatingly painful. I first developed this opinion back in 2000--the year my Mom went through chemotherapy to combat acute myelogenous leukemia. Chemo was hell for her, but she *still* has nightmares about the potassium chloride.

During the course of her chemo, Mom's blood potassium level dropped dangerously low. There was no time for the chewable pills to work--it was crucial to restore a proper electrolyte balance ASAP. So her docs decided to give her potassium chloride via IV.

They diluted it with saline. They decreased the drip rate. It didn't make a difference. She literally screamed in agony as that stuff hit her veins. She swears it felt like her arm was simultaneously burning in a fire and being crushed at the same time. They had to give her so much Demerol that it knocked her out cold in order to finish the drip. It took almost two hours, and left her arm red and swollen. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that potassium chloride is excruciatingly painful. As for my Mom...when she found that potassium chloride is used during lethal injection executions, she switched from being a staunch death penalty believer into a nearly frantic anti-death penalty activist. There's nothing like experience to bring on empathy enough to change a heart.

I know what it's like to lose someone to a violent crime, a brutal crime. I know the rage and the pain that come hand-in-hand with the grief. You lay awake at night trying not to think about what your loved one's last moments were like, praying they were somehow unconscious, hoping for at least that small mercy. I know what that's like. But we cannot torture people to death. We become no better than they are. That is NOT justice.

If our society's vengeance complex demands blood for blood, there is little that I can do to stop it, although I can try. In the meantime...if we give the state the power to deal out death, then we must also make sure they have the responsibility of doing it as painlessly as possible. It's not difficult to accomplish this. Use narcotics--morphine, dilaudid, methadone. That would be the most painless death we could possibly deliver.

[MichaelHarris]

1. Cruelty?

"Clean-cut serial killer Theodore "Ted" Bundy confessed to 28 killings, but other estimates indicate that he killed as many as 33 to 100 female victims during the 1970's. Often he sexually assaulted his victims with such instruments as crowbars or hairspray bottles."

1/5/74-Attacks Joni Lenz in her Seattle apartment. Lenz survives.
2/1/74-Abducts Lynda Ann Healy from her basement bedroom in Seattle.
3/12/74-Abducts Donna Manson from the campus of Evergreen College.
4/17/74-Abducts Susan Rancourt from the Central Washignton St. campus.
5/6/74-Abducts Kathy Parks from the campus at Oregon St.
6/1/74-Abducts Brenda Ball from Burien, Washington.
6/11/74-Abducts Georgeann Hawkins from an alley near her University of Washington fraternity house.
6/17/74-Brenda Baker's body is found in Millersylvania St. Park. It is unknown when she was abducted.
7/14/74-In seperate incidents, Janice Ott and Denise Naslund are abducted from Lake Sammammish St. Park.
9/2/74-A Jane Doe is abducted from Boise, Idaho.
9/7/74-Portions of the bodies of Ott, Naslund, and Hawkins are recovered two miles from lake Sammammish St. Park.
10/2/74-Abducts Nancy Wilcox.
10/18/74-Abducts Melissa Smith from Midvale, Utah.
10/27/74-Smith's body is found in Summitt Park near Salt Lake City, Utah.
10/31/74-Abducts Laura Aimee from Lehi, Utah.
11/8/74-Botches the abduction attempt of Carol DeRonch but abducts Debby Kent later that day from her school parking lot in Bountiful, Utah.
Thanksgiving, 1974-Aimee's body is found.
1/12/75-Abducts Caryn Campbell from a hotel in Aspen, Colorado.
2/18/75-Campbell's body is found near the motel she disappeared from.
3/3/75-The skulls of Healy, Ball, Parks, and Rancourt are found near Taylor Mountain in Washington.
3/15/75-Abducts Julie Cunningham from Vail, Colorado.
4/6/75-Abducts Melanie Cooley from her school in Nederland, Colorado.
4/23/75-Cooley is found dead twenty miles from Nederland.
5/6/75-Abducts Lynette Culver from her school playground in Pocatello, Idaho.
6/28/75-Abducts Susan Curtis from the campus of BYU while attending a youth conference.
7/1/75-Abducts Shelley Robertson from Golden, Colorado.
7/4/75-Abducts Nancy Baird from Layton, Utah.
8/16/75-Is arrested for possession of burglary tools during a traffic stop in Salt Lake City. The incident eventually results in an arrest in the DeRonch attack.
February 1976-Abducts Debbie Smith in Utah. 3/1/76-Is found guilty of aggravated kidnapping in the DeRonch attack.
4/1/76-Smith's body is found at Salt Lake International Airport.
6/30/76-Is sentenced to one-to-fifteen years in prison.
6/7/77-Escapes from the Pitkin County Law Library in Colorado while preparing for his upcoming trial in the Campbell murder.
6/13/77-Is apprehended in Aspen, Colorado.
12/30/77-Escapes from Garfield County Jail in Colorado and flees to Tallahassee, Florida.
1/14/78-Attacks several women at the Chi Omega sorority house in Tallahassee, killing Lisa Levy and Magaret Bowman. Also attacks Cheryl Thomas in her house nearby, seriously injuring her.
2/9/78-Abducts Kimberly Ann Leach from her school in Lake City, Florida.
2/15/78-Arrested while driving a stolen VW in Pensacola, Florida.
4/12/79-Leach's body is found in Suwanee St. Park in Florida.
7/27/78-Indicted for the murders of Levy and Bowman.
7/31/78-Indicted for the Leach murder.
7/7/79-Leach and Bowman murder trial begins.
7/23/79-Found guilty of the murders of Levy and Bowman.
7/31/79-Sentenced to death for the murders of Levy and Bowman.
1/7/80-Trial begins for the Leach murder.
2/6/80-Found guilty of Leach murder.
2/9/80-Sentenced to death for Leach murder.
7/2/86-Obtains a stay of execution only fifteen minutes before he is scheduled to die.
11/18/86-Obtains a stay of execution only seven hours before he is scheduled to die.
11/17/89-Final death warrant is issued.
1/24/89-Executed in the electric chair at 7:16 AM.

I don't care how they go as long as they go.

[Lyric]

3. Yes, cruelty.

"On the morning of February 20, 1976, Black and Irwin approached a car parked at a rest stop for a routine check. Tafero, his common law wife Sonia "Sunny" Jacobs, their two children (ages 9 years and 10 months), and friend Walter Rhodes were found asleep inside. Black saw a gun lying on the floor inside the car. He woke the occupants and had first Rhodes then Tafero come out of the car. Rhodes then shot both Black and Irwin and forced the others into the police car and fled the scene. They later disposed of the police car and kidnapped a man and stole his car. All three were arrested after being caught in a roadblock.

In order to receive a lesser charge himself, at their trial, Rhodes, who had been the only one to test positive for gunpowder residue consistent with having fired the weapon, testified that Tafero and Jacobs were solely responsible for the murder. Tafero and Jacobs were convicted with capital murder and were sentenced to death while Rhodes was sentenced to a life sentence, from which he was released early for good behavior. The children were placed in the care of Sunny Jacobs' parents until their deaths in a 1982 plane crash. The children were then separated and lived with relatives and family friends.

...

Circa 1982, Rhodes recanted his previous statement and confessed that it was he, not Jesse Tafero or Sunny Jacobs, that had actually killed Philip Black and Donald Irwin. This and other evidence compelled the court to commute Jacobs' sentence to life in prison, but not Tafero's.

Despite Rhodes' eight-year-old confession bearing complete responsibility for the deaths of Black and Irwin, neither the courts nor governor Robert Martinez intervened. Jesse Tafero was electrocuted. However, the machine, dubbed "Old Sparky", malfunctioned, causing six-inch flames to shoot out of Tafero's head. In all, three jolts of electricity were required to render Tafero dead, a process that took 13.5 minutes.

The Jesse Tafero case became the cause célèbre among death penalty opponents, who cited the brutal circumstances of his execution, the fact that there was reasonable doubt about his guilt, and the suppression of Walter Rhodes' confession as reasons it should be abolished.

The Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals found evidence compelling enough to overturn the conviction of Sonia "Sunny" Jacobs. She was released after accepting a plea bargain. After her release, Jacobs reaffirmed her innocence. She was reunited with her children and became an outspoken opponent of the death penalty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Tafero

------------

See, I can do that too.

[MichaelHarris]

5. Do you

really want to compare your list to mine? Remember, there are a lot of horrible people who have been put to death or waiting to be put to death. If you really, really want to compare your list of "maybes" to my list of human scum we can go ahead, it won't be pretty.

[Lyric]

6. I don't need to. A *single* innocent person

murdered horribly for the sake of "justice" negates all the "human scum" you could come up with in a lifetime.

[MichaelHarris]

7. Tell me

do you want to try and rehabilitate Charles Manson, who likes to be called Jesus Christ now? See that list I posted? Do you think the families of those women would have wanted Bundy rehabilitated? You can speak from your heart about the death penalty all day long but you have no solution. Sure you may say, "LIFE!! give them LIFE Sentences", you may say, "It's a chemical imbalance", and you may say, "everyone can change, all they need is a chance".

Answer one question, did Ted need another chance? That's the reality you won't face.

[Lyric]

8. "Another chance"? At what? A prison cell?

I'd rather see a million Ted Bundys, Charlie Mansons, and Timothy McVeighs spend a lifetime in prison without parole than to see even *one* Jesse Tafero sacrificed on the altar of "justice".

Killing the guilty is not worth the chance of murdering the innocent--especially when our methods of execution are so horrific. If even one innocent person is executed, every single one of us becomes a murderer. That's the reality that *you* won't face.

Until our justice system is able to deliver error-free justice, we have no right to deal out death as punishment.

[DaveJ]

10. How about a frontal lobotomy?

I'm seriously wondering, why not just mutilate the perpetrator's brain to the point he can never commit such crimes again? I wonder why we are so liberal that we cannot do that, but we have no problem killing. I really have no desire to kill whatsoever.

[Oeditpus Rex]

12. And then what?

Keep him in prison or kick him loose into society with part of his brain missing? :shrug:

[Heidi]

21. Why not keep them in prison for life if they present such a grave danger to society?

The death penalty is a far more costly penalty in terms of costs.
-Higher investigative costs. The State of Kansas conludes that the investigation costs for death-sentence cases were about 3 times greater than for non-death cases.
-Greater expense at the trial level: a Tennessee study showed that death penalty trials cost about 48 percent more than trials in which prosecutors seek life imprisonment. In New Jersey over the past 23 years, taxpayers have paid more than a quarter billion dollars on a capital punishment system that has executed not a single person in all that time.
-On direct appeal, the cost of appellat4e defense averages $100,000 more in death penalty cases than in non-death penalty murder cases.


And then there's the cost of being wrong. Examples:
-A landmark study by the US Department of Justice and the US Senate, in conjunction with Columbia Law School, estimated that the US justice system has a 5 percent failure rate, suggesting that there may be as many as 100,000 falsely convicted prisoners in the system. Other estimates put the percentage of wrongfully convicted prisoners at 10 percent.
-The Tennessee Court of Criminal appeals reversed 29 percent of capital cases on direct appeal.
-The Innocence Project has won the exoneration of 208 wrongfully-convicted people across the US. Among them were 15 death row prisoners.
-Twenty-two states have compensation statutes allowing the wrongfully convicted to seek damage awards in various amount. Illinois inmate James Newsome, who was freed in 1994, was awarded $15 million in federal court in 2001.
-The Justice For All Act of 2004 increased the amount of compensation for those on death row to $100,000 a year for each year of incarceration of the wrongfully convicted in federal cases.

[charlie]

33. Not to mention

exonerating evidence might one day not compel vindication from our highest courts.

"Mere factual innocence is no reason not to carry out a death sentence properly reached." -- Tony Scalia

He's also said any justice who doesn't support the death penalty should resign.

And he once explained, that since most people are religious believers, death isn't the end, so the death penalty ain't no thang.

[varkam]

39. Whaaaat?

Good grief, and he's a Supreme Court Justice, ladies and gentlemen! Surely he should know that, simply because many people believe something does not make it true.

[charlie]

40. Opus Dei

The Church's pre-Enlightenment shock troops. There is only Belief, everything else is superfluous.

It's really weird, Tony is probably the most interesting and likeable guy on the court. But that affable exterior is wrapped around an abyss.

[Heidi]

41. If I had less respect for pond scum than I do, I would say that Scalia is moral/ethical pond scum.

But I've nothing against pond scum, particularly. Scalia, on the other hand, works hard to be the reprehensible whatever-it-is-that-he-is. He is _vile_.

[charlie]

11. "you may say"

Though of course, she didn't. She stated her objection. You projected all that cruft about rehabilitation, imbalances, and second chances, then flayed her for it. Really poor form.

[Bluebear]

57. Swoon, what a tough guy. I'm so impressed. nt

[brentspeak]

18. I fail to see the connection between Ted Bundy's well-deserved execution

and the execution of an innocent person. The two are completely mutually exclusive.

[immoderate]

43. Well...

They're both executions. Don't they have that in common? :shrug:

--IMM

[earthlover]

44. OK....let's make a compromise....

Let's do capital punishment...with this one little condition....

That...whenever it is shown that an innocent man/woman is executed...we go back and execute each member of the jury that convicted, the prosecutor, the judge and the DA.

Fair enough.

Execute those who wrongly take a human life.

Good for goose...good for gander!

[cboy4]

9. You really have a lot of nerve acting so aggressively toward

a person who wrote a post about compassion for humanity.

Not only that, she said that her father was murdered.

You don't impress anyone with your attitude. I'll tell you that right now.

[Lyric]

23. I don't mind being disagreed with--even aggressively so.

What matters is that people hear about this issue, talk about, think about it. So many people just decide to support death without deep examination, without even considering the other side of this particularly ugly coin.

The death penalty doesn't deter crime, it's often unjustly applied to racial/ethnic minorities and poor people, it costs us a lot more money than life in prison would, it hurts the innocent family members of the inmate, as well as at least *some* of the victim's family members (like me), we don't have a humane way of administering it, and it gives the government the right to KILL us.

There are no upsides to the death penalty--at least none that aren't also benefits of life in prison, like taking violent criminals off of the streets.

Vengeance and "an eye for an eye" are just not good enough reasons to be a part of "the killing club" of nations like China and Saudi Arabia and become a society of murderers. Justice isn't about vengeance, it's about consequences, and spending the rest of your miserable life in a small concrete cell is more than enough of a consequence.

[undergroundpanther]

51. one upside

a grave is one place that will hold the killer forever and he cannot get free to kill again.
He is not consious, he is not a threat, he is finally and totally powerless to harm another person again.The threat is totally neutralized.

A grave is an un escapable prison cell.

[Lyric]

55. We can make our prisons inescapable with improved technology.

Eric Rudolph, Charles Manson, Ted Kaczynski--those men are never going to escape the prison they're in. We could build more prisons like the SuperMax, and I'd support that if it meant the abolition of the death penalty. We can make life sentences more harsh so that killers aren't getting out on parole. We can do these things, but we cannot exonerate and free an innocent person who's already dead. Death is the most inescapable consequence of all. Which is a greater travesty of justice--allowing a killer to live, or taking an innocent person's life in a painful and terrifying state-sponsored execution?

In my eyes, the ones who believe that "final justice" for people sentenced to death is worth the handful of innocent lives that might be taken in the process are little different than Bush and his "collateral damage". He also believed that a few innocent lives were worth the price of killing the guilty. The only difference I see here is one of scale...not justice, and certainly not morality.

[Bluebear]

58. All that is best to you, oktoberain. Your humanity and compassion should be a lesson here.

:hug:

[Bluebear]

59. Oh, I got an impression alright.

[earthlover]

14. 10 reasons to oppose Jesus' punishment

Some arguements against capital punishment:

1) religious: it is abhorrent to my conception of Christianity to advocate the same type of punishment that was meted out on Jesus, an advocate of non-violent, non-vengeful compassion. Some, with other religious views, may disagree. This is not to say imprisonment is wrong. Capital punishment is at another level.

2) capital punishment is permanent: you cannot un-do it if you find out you made a mistake

3) governments are not infallible: we all make mistakes. So do executioners, judges, and juries.

4) capital punishment is not meted out fairly: economics, and the ability to afford good legal counsel makes a big difference in the sentence. Death row is populated disproportionately by the poor and by minorities.

5) capital punishment is too expensive: it costs far more to execute an inmate than to incarcerate him or her.

6) capital punishment brutalizes all of us. It is state-sanctioned murder. It gets people all fired up about putting someone to death, not exactly a virtue. Vengefulness and hatred is corrosive to those who harbor such feelings.

7) we are one of the few civilized societies who still practice capital punishment, and we are not in good company in this regard, sharing the practice with brutal and regressive regimes

8) many methods have been brutal. As pointed out in this article, lethal injection may also be.

9) capital punishment has no deterrant value. Most murders are crimes of passion, and punishment does not even enter the mind. Societies with capital punishment are not lower in crime rates. So, in real terms, it just doesn't work.

10) the clamor to stream-line capital punishment cases with regards to appeals endangers the civil liberties of all of us

Well, that's ten off the top of my head. I'm sure there are more. It makes no difference how evil some of those executed are..making them the victims of murder only puts more blood on OUR hands. Makes us think like they did, that killing someone is justified. It is not.
Lock em up for life, yes. Keep them out of society, yes. But two wrongs does not make it right.

[brentspeak]

17. Uh, what does Jesus have to do with this?

?????????????????????????????????????

[varkam]

38. Jesus was executed. eom

[earthlover]

45. If you read even half of my post, you would know....

....one of the reasons to object to capital punishment would be on religious grounds. Ummm....hello....Jesus was executed. They didn't have electric chairs or lethal injections back then. But they did use crosses.

Many Christian churches, including the Catholic Church and many others, oppose capital punishment.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

67. so in order to punish a sociopath, society shoudl become sociopathic?

[Nutmegger]

2. "We become no better than they are. That is NOT justice."

The bloodthirsty among us will say that "they deserve everything they get" ... etc.

But that statement sums it up perfectly. That is certainly NOT justice.

Thank you for sharing your story. I gave you an R&K.

:hug:

[Pushed To The Left]

4. I'm sorry to hear about what happened to your father

:hug: I used to be pro-death penalty, but I now oppose it for practical reasons. I just don't trust our justice system enough to let it decide who lives and who dies. If an innocent person gets life in prison, the mistake can be corrected. If an innocent person is executed, there is no way to bring him or her back.

[Arkansas Granny]

13. You have pretty much summed up my feelings on this subject.

After hearing of many convictions being overturned after a person has been in prison for 10, 15, 20 years or longer makes me hesitant to declare that anyone should be sentenced to death.

[smokey nj]

15. I'm so sorry about your father.

:hug:
Are you a member of Murder Victims Families for Reconciliation? Here's a link to their website:
http://www.mvfr.org/about

It's a group dedicated to abolishing the death penalty whose members have lost relatives to murder and execution.

[Heidi]

16. Kick.

:kick:

[Midlodemocrat]

19. What a great post.

I had no idea about your father and I am so very, very sorry you went through that. Your post resonates such compassion I am pleased to call you my friend.

:hug:

Did they catch the person who did that to your dad?

[Lyric]

22. Yes, indeed they did.

There were two men who abducted him that day, but the one who actually killed him was sentenced to life in prison, and that's more than good enough for me.

:hug:

[aikoaiko]

20. Sorry for your mom and dad -- but I'm stillfor the death penalty.

Imperfect as it is. 'Less imperfect' with better forensic and technological advances.

[Heidi]

26. Would you personnaly be willing to administer the IV or pull the switch,

knowing that the US Justice Department acknowledges that the US justice system has a failure rate of at least five percent, and that there may be as many as 100,000 falsely convicted prisoners in the system? (Other estimates put the percentage of wrongfully convicted prisoners at 10 percent)?

Knowing that there's a five percent chance that you were executing a wrongfully convicted person, would you personally be willing to administer the IV or pull the switch?

ETA: I'm not trying to pick a fight with you. I'm asking you an honest question.

[aikoaiko]

36. short answer - yes

although I would still reserve the right to protest if I thought the case file showed blatant injustice

I would do this the same way I would vote not guilty if the State had not met the burden of proof in a murder case knowing full well that alleged murderer could murder again.

There is error both in both ends of the justice system that sometimes leads to subsequent innocent deaths.

[Heidi]

42. The state's executioners have no right to protest.

You're with them, or you're against them.

Is it not irrational to accept the deaths of some innocents (the wrongfully convicted), yet be unwilling to accept the deaths of others (those among us in society who are wronfully assaulted/murdered, etc.)?

[aikoaiko]

64. well.

...most anyone can walk away from their job in protest is what I meant. I would not be an automaton pushing the buttons.

Second, is NOT irrational to accept the deaths of some innocents (the wrongfully convicted), yet be unwilling to accept the deaths of others (those among us in society who are wrongfully assaulted/murdered, etc.) because of Due Process of the conviction.

[Heidi]

66. I give up on discussing this matter with you.

Go ahead and volunteer to be an executioner. (You won't, though. I'm about 99 percent certain those who share your view won't put your money where your mouths are.) And please do sleep soundly tonight in the belief that it's not irrational to accept the deaths of some innocents.

I wish you peace, but as long as there are people living and breathing who care about equal justice, you can count on your peace being disturbed. Fair? :hi:

[aikoaiko]

70. Fair enough

I'll continue to sleep well, thank you.

[Puglover]

60. Gee whiz

I'll bet you're so for it you could look the families of wrongfully executed people right in the eyes and cheerlead for your DP. Christ how fuckin lame.

[Th1onein]

24. kicked and recommended!

Thank you for posting this. I am anti-capital punishment. It brings us down, as a society.

[Batgirl]

25. If my loved one was murdered

I'd like to think I could still hang onto my anti-death penalty principles, as you have done. It would take a lot of self flattery though for me to guarantee I'd never be susceptible to the darkly primitive impulse to kill someone in return -- and maybe acknowledging that possibility is why I don't think life and death decisions over others should be made by people who are caught up in a frenzy of emotion. I also believe many death penalty supporters haven't thought it through logically or are in denial as to how often the justice system, an imperfect human undertaking, gets it wrong. Sometimes witnesses are wrong, sometimes they lie, sometimes those on the prosecution side of things will withold or falsify evidence to get a career-boosting conviction. It'll always be this way as long as human nature remains what it is.

Those who "defend" their support of the death penalty by outlining the grisly details of truely monstrous and sickening crimes, aren't facing a simple reality: they don't get to cherry pick those cases where there's absolutely zero doubt. By giving in to the desire for ultimate revenge, taking of human life, they're actually consenting to the invevitability that some of those lives taken by the State will be innocent.

I have zero respect for those supporters of the death penalty who are so adamant about executing the guilty that they're willing to accept innocent people will be caught up as well. And I have no doubt that some of them would actually consider it a bonus that lethal injection, sold to the public as a humane death, may well be much more torturous than the more openly savage forms of execution.

[hayu_lol]

28. Life imprisonment should be sufficient, perhaps in solitary for the most...

brutal offenders.

Lessee: hanging is cruel, shooting is cruel(except in Utah), injections are cruel, so...

after much deliberation and with my entire tongue in cheek:

How about we just issue clubs to the guards and mash 'em to death.

[undergroundpanther]

49. Solitary confinement

is torture.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1141/is_7_37/ai_68364208

Prisoners get to be involuntary lab rats, prisoners get raped, beaten to death,Jails are torture chambers.
http://www.inthesetimes.com/issue/26/03/feature4.shtml
http://www.uplink.com.au/lawlibrary/Documents/Docs/Doc82.html
http://www.newstarget.com/019637.html
But death is not torture if it is quick and/or painless.
Everyone dies. But torture does not have to be done to cause death.

I'd rather see prisoners who rape,molest or kill repeatedly,To be injected with a lethal dose or morphine.Or some other hypnotic painless drug.

They die , nobody is tortured that way,and there is one less psychopath alive to escape or get out of jail to ruin another life..

[Nikia]

27. I agree with you

In my opposition of the death penalty and that if they must kill someone, an overdose of narcotics would be the most humane way to do this. Does anyone know why they don't do lethal injection this way or why there would be opposition to this?

[Holly_Hobby]

29. This is how Dr. Kevorkian did it:

1. A sleep-inducer that puts a patient in a coma

2. A muscle relaxer that stops the patients ability to breath

3. A heart-stopping dose of a barbiturate

He had a "suicide machine" with 3 bottles connected to an IV tube. I'm not a doctor, but you don't feel pain if you're in a coma, as far as I know. My brother was in a drug-induced coma and he said he felt no pain whatsoever.



On edit, for the record, I don't believe in an eye for an eye. But I do believe humans should have the ability to end their own suffering.

[RestoreGore]

30. States will hopefully begin to see what you talk about

A federal judge in Tennessee this month ruled that the three cocktail lethal injection in Tennessee can cause excruciating pain. I think it is unconstitutional, and that is what we as Americans must concern ourselves with as well. Are we as a people no better than those who live in such barbaric countries as China and Saudi Arabia where human rights are extinct? I agree with your post that vengeance is not what we as a civilized society should be about. Justice must be served, and in the case of our barbaric practices it is not. I am so sorry about your father and think it is very brave of you to continue to speak as you do.

[DemGa]

31. Executions are a conservative value

they must go.

[Paladin]

32. My Sympathies---But The Irony Is Unavoidable

Years ago, when Texas was about to replace the electric chair with lethal injections to carry out its executions, some state legislators opposed the action---on the grounds that injection was entirely too humane a method, and wouldn't act as an effective deterrent to crime.

(Looking forward to the usual blanket trashing of Texas responses....)

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

34. That's the issue. People always look at our system as a way of punishment.

It shouldn't be. It SHOULD be a way to remove those who are a danger to society from that environment, and when possible, rehabilitate them.

[undergroundpanther]

52. Prison is punishing

A quick painless death is removing a dangerous person putting them into a grave where they can do no more harm.
That is why I support death penalty I would prefer a better drug cocktail. Death it is merciful compared to jail and the torture that goes on in jail.
To me Death is mercy compared to torture.Because the torture continues long after the actual torture stops.

And if you can,,rehab them, try to help them first before you kill them. This is of course depending on the crime and the temperament/personality of the prisoner.

[earthlover]

63. Capital punishment is ineffective as a deterrant and we have known this

If it was really a deterrant, why are executions done in the middle of the night? Why not on prime-time and why keep them so seculuded? Heck, televise them! If they are deterrants, then let everyone see them so they can have full deterrant value! Heck, force people to watch them! And make them as barbaric as possible....more deterrance. Torture the hell out of them. That'll make them think twice!

Well, they are not deterrants. And I think we know that. Back in the days when pick pockets were executed, a good place to be pick pocketed was at the public execution!

There are some sicko's in our society who would enjoy watching an execution. Probably a wet dream for some idiots. I venture to say that this itself is another reason to oppose the death penalty. It encourages people to be perverts and get off on such.

[undeterred]

35. There's a reason why the family doesn't get to decide

the punishment. Its too hard to get past the emotion, although some incredibly mericiful and gracious people are able to do that.

My college boyfriend's sister was murdered by a serial killer in 1977. Because of my closeness to that family and that incident I always felt that certain cases deserved the death penalty. I actually did a degree in ethics, and when I was teaching I used Sister Helen Prejean's Book "Dead Man Walking" and the film with Susan Sarandon and Sean Penn was in theatres. I required my students to read the book and I recommended the film. I know the actors are also against the death penalty.

I remember Sean Penn delivering the line: "I've been called a son of a bitch lots of times, but no one has ever called me a son of God". I do believe there is the image of God, somewhere, in every human being, although sometimes it takes a very holy person to see it.

I knew the theological arguments before, but it was Sister Prejean that persuaded me. Shortly after that I met a doctor who worked in Cook Country prison in Chicago, Illinois. She told me that when she took a H&P (History and Physical) exam of many of the men, most of them had never been asked questions before about old injuries, especially head injuries. Many of them had never seen a doctor as a child. She suspected a great deal of Traumatic Brain Injury which had resulted in neurological damage that was manifesting in all kinds of behavioral/criminal actions. She too, was very much against the death penalty, which was skewed against black prisoners.

On January 31, 2000 Governor Ryan of Illinois imposed a moratorium on the death penalty.
http://deadlinethemovie.com/state/IL/index.php

My boyfriend's sister's killer was eventually caught for another murder and he "talked" in prison about killing her, so he got a life sentence for that crime in 2003 but the death penalty was no longer available. However he died of natural causes in prison less than a year later. Nothing brings back a loved one or eases the pain. But we do not have to bring more pain and suffering into an already pain filled world.

[varkam]

37. Here, here! K&R

Personally, I don't see how the death penalty makes us any better than the people we are killing. Regardless of the method, it will always be brutal and inhumane due to the simple fact that you are taking the life of another human being as a means of retribution.

[Psyop Samurai]

46. Excellent post... thank you!! ..n/t

[DarkTirade]

47. All the arguments about retribution vs. just preventing a repeat offender and/or rehabilitating

somone, or the moral issue of killing a killer go right out the window with just one simple fact: People can be wrongly convicted. I don't care if we manage to go for a hundred years without wrongly convicting a single person, there is still always that possibility. And death is something you can't undo or fix. If law enforcement (or even a civilian caught up in events) is forced to take a life to defend others, then it is acceptable. However once someone is in prison, especially if they have a life sentance, there is no reason good enough IMO. Just because a conviction CAN be wrong. And an innocent may be killed by the very same justice system that is supposed to protect the innocent.

[undergroundpanther]

50. people can get wrongly convicted yes

but also loopholes in the laws,and gullible parole boards, let offenders out to offend again some don't even serve the whole sentance..
Laws seem to be designed to make it easy on the real offenders all the technicalities seem to help them and harm the victims or innocent people.And if there is a wrongful conviction it is very hard to undo it without some compelling evidence to re open a case.
I there is an organization that helps innocent prisoners with DNA testing .. second chance I think it was called.

[Solon]

54. If you want to blame anything, for making it easy for defendents to defend themselves, blame the...

Constitution. I cannot believe anyone has this authoritarian attitude. What the fuck? What the fuck do you want next, the elimination of trials and shit? And what the fuck would you say to the families of those who were wrongly executed or imprisoned, "Tough Luck"?

[undergroundpanther]

48. Potassium chloride

I had a drip of antibiotics in my arm,it was cold and I cried in agony too because veins register cold as pain.I had to get a whopper dose of torridol to make it bearable.
Also I have been given a drug called anectine.Aversive" therapy" it basically paralyzes you.And it really messed me up.I really thought I was being murdered being given that shit.

Secondly I was molested.It was very traumatic, he took pictures,and for many years I attempted suicide and spent years in the hospitals trying to get my life together after that.

My life was stolen from me My youth,my mind,my future to a large extent, the ability to feel hope joy whatever ,I was shattered so some asshole could get off.
And my life is dead. I think rapists and molesters are worse than murderers for one reason they leave their victims with scars that never seem to go away.Many rape and molestation victims try to kill themselves after the incidents.But the rapist he feels no pain.

I would gladly inject potassium chloride into the veins of the soul murderer who ruined my life and put me through this trauma and the pain it has caused me, I'd want him to feel something for every suicide attempt I made because of the memories,nightmares insomnia panic and numbness, The 18 months locked in a room and other abusive "treatments" in the psych wards that was done to me, because of what HE did to me.

That 2 hours of agony in comparison is far kinder than what I went through at his hands and the attempts to"heal" me from what he did to me. And with him being free as far as I know,I have no clue if any other kids are damaged by this psychopathic waste of skin. Wanting to put a monster that ruined my life in a grave does not make me a monster it makes me human,it is called self preservation, emotional closure and if he isn't dead yet,public safety. I think he needs to die for what he has done and what he is..he is not safe to exist around.

The law is written in such a way I cannot do shit about what happened to me.Because it occurred before 1976 He gets off the hook for ruining my life and I will never see him made accountable..

I wonder why doesn't the state use a feel good poison like morphine? It would kill without the pain.

Rapists and molesters do not give a shit about who's lives they destroy so I don't care about THEM. And I do not have to care about them. I do care about people who do not get off on others or my suffering.I care about victims and survivors. Fuck the perps.I do not waste my kindness on people who use my kindness to harm me. Killing a killer is in some cases the ethical position.

A grave is a jail a perpetrator cannot ever escape or get out of on 'good behavior' or by hoodwinking the parole board.
As long as rapists and molesters get out,and don't want to stop raping and molesting people there will be people in pain wanting them dead for real reasons that matter to them.

Psychopaths see themselves as perfect so they do not want to change and see no reason to. Death penalty is not a deterrent it is an un-escapable jail.So if they won't change and don't care, obviously you can't live with them..But you CAN live without them.

Sometimes killing a person who refuses to coexist without causing others harm IS the moral thing to do..If the state shot the asshole up with a lethal dose of morphine he would go out not feeling a thing, would that make you feel less guilty about this issue?

Sympathy for someone who will not care and likes harming others does not make a psychopath grow a soul, they are not like you or I they have no conscience. Pity does not change a psychopath,nor does, religion, or keeping them locked up for years or in solitary.
And if you are capable of caring,taking out a rapist molester torturer or killer is not going to make you not have a conscience.

Bottom line is certain types of personalities cannot exist among people who are non psychopaths.What would you do with people like that ,take care of them in jail forever, jail is not cheap, and in jail there is abuses, solitary can make you lose it and solitary is all the rage now in prisons,there exploitation, rapes, and pharmaceutical companies do drug trials on prisoners too.. it's cruel inside jail too. But I guess you never think of that side of it. In jail they can get potassium chloride or worse. like...

More than 100 prisoners in Washington and Oregon were paid $10 a month to have their testicles irradiated by government researchers. Prisoners in Pennsylvania were among those who had dioxin rubbed into their skin. They were also given LSD and other hallucinogens by military scientists. These abuses continued well into the 1970s. And until the early 1990s, private companies used prisoners in Arkansas and Arizona as plasma donors, which dramatically increased the contamination of the U.S. blood supply with hepatitis and HIV.
http://www.forejustice.org/write/mental_torture_of_american_prisoners.htm
http://www.newstarget.com/019970.html

http://www.prisonlegalnews.org/(S(w40tdv55bpbo3555tkgna245))/displayNews.aspx?newsid=117&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

I think people that cannot tolerate the idea of a death penalty need to be around psychopaths more..maybe with experience than they'd understand the futility of the fantasy of 'reforming' these psychopathic people..that do not WANT to reform and will not be coerced into it either. And the other problem is prisoners being a captive population , private companies will exploit the shit out of them.

I'd rather take two hours of agony and die,in an execution than be injected with cancer cells and die a slow sick death in pain for months in jail surrounded by hostile guards and dangerous inmates without knowing who did it or why it was done.

[qdemn7]

53. I'm truly sorry for what happened to you...

And you stated my support for the Death Penalty far more eloquently than I could have. Thank you.

I think people that cannot tolerate the idea of a death penalty need to be around psychopaths more..maybe with experience than they'd understand the futility of the fantasy of 'reforming' these psychopathic people..that do not WANT to reform and will not be coerced into it either.

Reminds me of what the actor Scott Glenn said after making Silence of the Lambs. He stated he was opposed to Capital Punishment. That is until he listened to tape recordings serial killers made of them torturing their victims to death. That changed his mind real quick.

Let's do capital punishment...with this one little condition....

That...whenever it is shown that an innocent man/woman is executed...we go back and execute each member of the jury that convicted, the prosecutor, the judge and the DA.

Fair enough.

Execute those who wrongly take a human life.

Good for goose...good for gander!

OK, I'll counter that one with every time a Jury, Defense Lawyer, judge let an accused Murderer off and he kills again, they ALL go to prison for live without Parole.

How's that smartass? :mad:

Would you personally be willing to administer the IV or pull the switch,

Yes, I would.
And I think the idea of an overdose of morphine or heroin is a fine idea.

[Lyric]

61. I've been there.

I was molested as a child. I know how that feels.

I also spent time hospitalized after Dad's murder, because I tried to commit suicide. I blamed myself for not being there. My folks had split up a few months before, and instead of choosing to stay with Dad, I went with Mom...leaving him home all alone. He would never have gone out that night if I had been there; he'd have been at home with me, like he always was when I was home. I went through years of medication and therapy over it before I was able to function again. To this day, it still haunts me. I know how it feels to be a victim.

But I also know how it feels from the other side. Did you see the story above that I posted about Jesse Tafero and Sonia Jacobs? The reason I know so much about that case is because the father of my little boy is Sonia Jacob's son. My ex was nine years old when his entire life was destroyed. He watched a man named Walter Rhodes murder two police officers right in front of his eyes--traumatic enough, for a 9 year old boy. Then he watched his mother and stepfather get arrested for a crime they did not commit. The police refused to listen to his witness account of what happened. His mother and stepfather were convicted of murder and sentenced to DEATH for something he *knew* they didn't do. He was there, after all. But this happened in an era when the testimony of children was assumed to be biased and unreliable, so Eric never had the chance to tell a jury what he saw. That still haunts *him* to this day.

He spent the rest of his minority in an abusive home, and had to comfort his younger sister Tina on the day that *her* father was horrifically, wrongfully executed in Florida's electric chair. His head caught on fire. They had to pull the switch several times before he finally, mercifully, died. A couple years later, suppressed evidence was found and Sonia's conviction was overturned. That same evidence would have gotten Jesse's conviction overturned too.

Unfortunately all this trauma left my ex severely emotionally damaged. He has spoken with a stammer since the day it all happened, and he can't seem to love and trust people the way "normal" people do. That's one reason he's my ex; he left before our son was even born, and went to live with his Mom for the first time since he was nine years old. It was complicated, but I think a large part of him was still a little boy inside, who desperately wanted to be with Mom again. I was angry for years, but not anymore. Let him have whatever happiness he can find in his broken life. At least I have the chance to make sure his son has a better childhood than he did.

If someone you loved was wrongfully convicted and executed in a horrible way, someone whose children would go through what Eric and Tina did, perhaps you'd feel differently. I'm sorry for your pain.

[Lyric]

62. Oh, and to answer your question:

If the state shot the asshole up with a lethal dose of morphine he would go out not feeling a thing, would that make you feel less guilty about this issue?

Yes. I'm opposed to the death penalty, but if we *must* kill, then at least do so in a painless way. The innocent families of the people who are sentenced to die would certainly find it easier to bear, knowing that their loved one (guilty or not) at least died painlessly.

[Solon]

56. I oppose the Death Penalty because our system of Justice is imperfect, and will ALWAYS be imperfect.

Until such time that we can eliminate human fallibility, there is no way we can create a justice system where the death penalty can be acceptable.

[KansDem]

65. I often wonder about the symbolism of the hypodermic needle.

For decades it was used for healing. We all got our shots growing up--it hurt--but we knew it was for our own good. And only criminal types, like heroin users, used the needle for nefarious deeds. Now, though with "lethal injection," the tool that gave us life now brings us death. I don't know--maybe I'm making something out of nothing--but I just wonder how we will come to regard the tool that gave us life (but was used from time to time for evil ends by those living outside of society) that now is used for state-sanctioned killing.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

68. well said.

:hug:

[eyl]

69. I've never understood

why they don't just use an overdose of anasthesia - what's the reasoning behind using such a cocktail?

As I've mentioned before, I'm not opposed to the DP in principle, but given it's an extreme measure - and the possibility for error - I believe it should be utilized only under very specific circumstances , mainly when jail is demonstratabily not sufficient (e.g. someone who commits murder in jail* or having escaped form jail), and the evidence is far stronger than just "beyond a reasonable doubt".

*You could also give life in solitary, but that seems to me at least as cruel as the DP

[Donald Ian Rankin]

71. I do not think the cruelty is the relevant question.

Lethal injection may well cause suffering.

A lifetime in prison certainly causes suffering.

I think that the reason to object to the death penalty is that it *kills* people.

If the death penalty would be justifiable if it were possible to kill people painlessly, I think that lethal injection would be justifiable.

However, since we can't be sure of not killing people we shouldn't, we shouldn't be killing anyone, cruelly or otherwise.