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Holocaust denial? This country need only look in the mirror.

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american_typeculture Donating Member (227 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 10:54 AM
Original message
Holocaust denial? This country need only look in the mirror.

Chief Black Kettle

http://www.lastoftheindependents.com/sandcreek.htm

Colorado Territory during the 1850's and 1860's was a place of phenomenal growth spurred by gold and silver rushes. Miners by the tens of thousands had elbowed their way into mineral fields, dislocating and angering the Cheyennes and Arapahos. The Pike's Peak Gold Rush in 1858 brought the the tension to a boiling point. Tribesmen attacked wagon trains, mining camps, and stagecoach lines during the Civil War, when the military garrisons out west were reduced by the war. One white family died within 20 miles of Denver. This outbreak of violence is sometimes referred to as the Cheyenne-Arapaho War or the Colorado War of 1864-65.
Governor John Evans of Colorado Territory sought to open up the Cheyenne and Arapaho hunting grounds to white development. The tribes, however, refused to sell their lands and settle on reservations. Evens decided to call out volunteer militiamen under Colonel John Chivington to quell the mounting violence.
Evans used isolated incidents of violence as a pretext to order troops into the field under the ambitious, Indian-hating territory military commander Colonel Chivington. Though John Chivington had once belonged to the clergy, his compassion for his fellow man didn't extend to the Indians.

In the spring of 1864, while the Civil War raged in the east, Chivington launched a campaign of violence against the Cheyenne and their allies, his troops attacking any and all Indians and razing their villages. The Cheyennes, joined by neighboring Arapahos, Sioux, Comanches, and Kiowas in both Colorado and Kansas, went on the defensive warpath.
Evans and Chivington reinforced their militia, raising the Third Colorado Calvary of short-term volunteers who referred to themselves as "Hundred Dazers". After a summer of scattered small raids and clashes, white and Indian representatives met at Camp Weld outside of Denver on September 28. No treaties were signed, but the Indians believed that by reporting and camping near army posts, they would be declaring peace and accepting sanctuary.
Black Kettle was a peace-seeking chief of a band of some 600 Southern Cheyennes and Arapahos that followed the buffalo along the Arkansas River of Colorado and Kansas. They reported to Fort Lyon and then camped on Sand Creek about 40 miles north.
Shortly afterward, Chivington led a force of about 700 men into Fort Lyon, and gave the garrison notice of his plans for an attack on the Indian encampment. Although he was informed that Black Kettle has already surrendered, Chivington pressed on with what he considered the perfect opportunity to further the cause for Indian extinction. On the morning of November 29, he led his troops, many of them drinking heavily, to Sand Creek and positioned them, along with their four howitzers, around the Indian village.
Black Kettle ever trusting raised both an American and a white flag of peace over his tepee. In response, Chivington raised his arm for the attack. Chivington wanted a victory, not prisoners, and so men, women and children were hunted down and shot.
With cannons and rifles pounding them, the Indians scattered in panic. Then the crazed soldiers charged and killed anything that moved. A few warriors managed to fight back to allow some of the tribe to escape across the stream, including Black Kettle.
The colonel was as thourough as he was heartless. An interpreter living in the village testified, "THEY WERE SCALPED, THEIR BRAINS KNOCKED OUT; THE MEN USED THEIR KNIVES, RIPPED OPEN WOMEN, CLUBBED LITTLE CHILDREN, KNOCKED THEM IN THE HEAD WITH THEIR RIFLE BUTTS, BEAT THEIR BRAINS OUT, MUTILATED THEIR BODIES IN EVERY SENSE OF THE WORD." By the end of the one-sided battle as many as 200 Indians, more than half women and children, had been killed and mutilated.
While the Sand Creek Massacre outraged easterners, it seemed to please many people in Colorado Territory. Chivington later appeared on a Denver stage where he regaled delighted audiences with his war stories and displayed 100 Indian scalps, including the pubic hairs of women.
Chivington was later denounced in a congressional investigation and forced to resign. When asked at the military inquiry why children had been killed, one of the soldiers quoted Chivington as saying, "NITS MAKE LICE." Yet the after-the-fact reprimand of the colonel meant nothing to the Indians.
As word of the massacre spread among them via refugees, Indians of the southern and northern plains stiffened in their resolve to resist white encroachment. An avenging wildfire swept the land and peace returned only after a quarter of a century.

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MrModerate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
1. And is anybody denying this happened? n/t
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ChenZhen Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. For the most part, we do not acknowledge it happened...
Its something this nation tip-toes around.



I wonder...if we ceded an entire state to native americans, gave them full soverignty, allowed them to persecute and put up fences around the non-native population there...I wonder how many would deny, or at least question (which we construe as denial), the full extent of the genocide against the indigenous people of North America.
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #7
17. How likely is that?
Denial of our culpability in the American Indians is probably the default strategy for a long time for the same reason that Slave Reparations are not going anywhere; guilt on that fundamental level is hard to deal with. Whites run everything in America and it would be better for both Blacks and Indians if Whites were not here at all.

Bryant
check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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ChenZhen Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #17
33. It is unlikely...unless the United Nations forced us to...
We are so apt to cast stones and not understand other's audacity to reinterprete the world to fit their own worldview.

If our reality were different, we also would have to reinterprete the world to lay aside guilt, to help us cope with strife, and to explain the current geo-political situation we may find ourselves in.

In this strange hypothetical I proposed, I know so many people who would be out of touch with reality and history, and have such hatred of a native state. Although the feelings would be unjustified and wrong, they are, for the most part, a result of our environment and the complexities of the human condition. But alas, today it isn't Americans who have to live in such a strange reality, so I should recede back to the shadows and cast more stones at our neighbors.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #7
48. That's what should have been done in the first place
In fact... we should have treated them as the nation(s) they were at the time, and peacefully negotiated with them, but there was that whole "manifest Destiny" bullshit to contend with... and we "apologize" with what? Reservations?

Let's take a trip in Google Earth, shall we?

Here's a view of Native American reservations in the US (this is not complete, but that doesn't affect my point too much):



Let's look at the big, blue one in the southwest: the Navajo reservation.



Now here's the terrain we gave them to live in:



Here's a view from the border of their reservation:



And a view of part of the interior:



My, my, my. Aren't we generous... we gave them a desert nobody could ever actually use for anything. And this is only one example of the piss-poor treatment the White Man(tm) has given the native population here in the US.
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CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #48
69. my mother grew up and lived on that land
and she yearned to return to it up until the day she died I'll have you know.

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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #69
88. My point is, we could have done much better by the natives than by giving them
the lands we did. While I have no doubt that those are treasured areas for a great many people, we could and should have done better.

Like, maybe, leaving them alone in the first place...
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. The denial comes in the form of silence n/t
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american_typeculture Donating Member (227 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. It's a denial.
With zero acknowledgment. Shit, most in this country haven't even heard of Sand Creek. Up until recently native Americans were depicted as blood thirsty savages on the big screen. So yeah, that's denial in my book. Deliberate ignorance is a form of denial. Read 'Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee' it talks about how the "victors" at Sand Creek cut out the women's vaginas and stretched them over their heads to wear as a grotesque hat. How many Americans know about that?
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CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. some haven't heard of the Trail of Tears either
so much intentional ignorance.

It sickens me.

The USA needs to acknowledge what crimes have been committed against its native peoples before anything will change.

In the meantime, some sit on reservations in povertry. Others are "assimiliated" into the larger "white" culture.

The true history of America has never been told.

I doubt it ever will be told in my lifetime.

Genocide is ugly and leaves a stain that will never go away, never.

:kick:
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #15
22. Same folks that can't find Iraq on the map or know the capitol of Canada?
Ignorami are ignorami...
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #15
89. Trail of Tears opposed by Congress and Supreme Court

Andrew Jackson threatened to overthrow the Constitutional gov't of the United States. The military was in his pocket as a result of his post-War of 1812 popularity, plus plenty of bigotry among the common people. He simply ignored the laws passed be Congress and the rulings out of the Supreme Court.


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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #9
18. Well, in fairness, "most Americans" don't know an awful lot.
Ever watch "Jaywalking?"

Who is Dick Cheney?

Ummmmm. Is he a baseball player?
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atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. How many even know about it
How many know that the Kingdom of Hawaii was taken by military force or that while the Cubans were allowed sovereignty after the Spanish-American War, while the Philippine Islands were denied the same freedom?

Coming from Hawaii, I was surprised that so few people in the mainland were aware of the circumstances of the islands becoming an American territory, and the denials I heard when I tried to explain it to them were amazing.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that you can't deny something that you're not aware of!
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gaspee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #10
32. What happened in the Philippine Islands
during the American occupation is a disgrace and is never acknowledged. I would like to see Ahmadinejad's Holocaust denial (denounced, of course) used as a springboard to discuss other holocausts, even ones perpetrated by Americans, and how to STOP them. Of course, the world community isn't even very keen to stop what's happening currently in Darfur.

Humans don't seem to want to live according to our better natures, do we? We all know we have them, but they never seem to prevail, do they?

Tribalism, I think, is the root of the problem. It seems like people can justify any treatment of the "other" as in people not in their (whether racial, religious or self-selected) tribe.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #32
86. I was in my late thirties when I found out about
Our torture and repression of people in the Phillipines.

I found it amazing that I could attend the right schools and get good grades and not be told about such an event.
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mainegreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-27-07 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #10
111. I think more than you might suspect know about it.
And I think more than you might suspect would support giving Hawaiian natives Federally recognized tribal status.

It's a bit too late for independence now though.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #1
28. How much of this did you learn in public school?
There is a very shameful history behind this "great nation" of ours and so many know or care so little about it.

This country wouldn't be as it is if it weren't for genocide.

Julie
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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #1
30. not as such, but many Americans stop short of calling it what it was: Genocide.
I used to be one of them. I was an apologist for America's Manifest Destiny; I figured if us imperialists didn't take the land, someone else would. A clash of European and native cultures was inevitable, as was violence.

I had a tipping point. I gave in and called it genocide when I learned states offered bounties for Indian scalps.

If that's not state-sponsored genocide, I don't know what is.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
46. How much is it even discussed in history classes. So much of our history is dictated by wealthy
white men from Yale and Harvard, who are deemed "experts".

That's not history - that's essentially censorship.
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kenfrequed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
94. In one way or another
Some people do try to downplay, spin, or contort the treatment of indigenous peoples still.

The failure to actually out and out call it genocide is one of the methods that many practice.
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CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
2. you nailed it
kick & recommend!!!!!!!

:dem: :kick:

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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
3. Yeah...
No shit.

When are the Native Americans getting THEIR own country?

:evilgrin:

Let's give 'em Texas.
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CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. they already did that
many of the "removals" ended up in Texas. Many of these "removals" today are the "white" people living there. They don't even know (or admit) that they are in fact part Indian.
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MyNameGoesHere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. when they get lobbyist as powerful
as some other groups.
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #3
14. Let's give them Burma.
It makes about as much sense as giving the Jews Israel in response to a massacre that happened in Germany.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #14
42. Apples and oranges.
There was always a significant Jewish presence in Israel. After the fall of the Ottoman Empire the Jewish residents increasingly pushed for national recognition in a land that had not had an independent national identity since the overrunning of the crusader state in the 12th century - which was itself a foreign occupation by northern Europeans. That last state with an indiginous national identity in the area was Israel, before it was destroyed by the Romans in 70 CE.

The holocaust sped the process, but was not responsible for the creation of Israel. That is a "holocaust myth".
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timtom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #42
85. Apples and apples
The significant Jewish presence in Israel (Sephardim) have been marginilized as 2nd class citizens by the Ashkanizim (the invited guests).
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
6. And if Germany opened an American Indidan Holocaust museum, how...
...would we view it? I didn't invent the question (Dr. Norman Finkelstein did), but it's an interesting perspective shift.

PB
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distantearlywarning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
11. Great. America sucks.
I admit it. America sucks great big balls. Suck, suck, suck.

Ok. Now that we've gotten that over with, now can we admit that some of Iran's policies suck too?

And you might want to take a look at this while you're at it...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. Ooohhh...thanks for that 'tu qoque' thing! n/t
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distantearlywarning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
83. You're quite welcome.
I hope it was instructive.
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #11
25. Yes, thanks
from me too - highly instructive.:toast:
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american_typeculture Donating Member (227 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #11
27. Wow, thank the heavenly stars for wikipedia.
How did people ever formulate any kind of real discussion before wikipedia? Your post is a strawman by the way, how ironic, deliciously ironic.
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #27
37. Nooo....I think it is to the point.
Your initial point (due to the reference about holocaust deniers) seems to be Americans shouldn't throw stones about other people being holocaust deniers when, through our silence on the subject, we are defacto Indian-holocaust deniers. That is precisely the kind of argument the 'tu qoque' thing refers to, right?

I usually agree about Wikipedia, but in the case it was just a straight definition.
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distantearlywarning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #37
82. Ding, ding, ding.
Got it in one.

Glad to see somebody is still paying attention out there.

It's not about fucking Wikipedia. If you don't like Wikipedia, google it yourself and read about it on some other website.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #82
96. The irony is palpable here.
Some might even say that your bigotry is proudly on display. A fairer reading of the OP would be much more analogous to:

Mathew 7:5 - "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."

Any reasonable person would accept this argument as legitimate. A person who questions whether or not the creation of the Zionist state of Israel is just and fair compensation for the horrors committed by the European Nazis is marked as a Holocaust denier, and yet those same folks who would condemn that person seem to have no comprehension of entire races of people being wiped out in this hemisphere.

But forget history for a second here. What is different about what Hitler did to the Jews and what Bush is doing to the Muslims?

Is there a difference that you can define? First you demonize them, then you exterminate them.

Seems like a process to me, so if I'm missing something, what is so different between now and then?
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #82
102. That last part wasn't for me, was it?
I have posted on some boards that discuss scientific and technical information and they usually don't respect Wikipedia as a source. But even somewhere like that wouldn't have a problem with using Wikipedia for a straight definition. That's all I meant.
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #27
107. Yeah, that's how it seems to me.
No one ever said, or suggested, that we shouldn't criticize Iran for anything...just that we should possibly look even closer to home for our own brand of the same thing. It's a kind of selective outrage.

There are deniers of THAT holocaust too. People who still say things like "that's what conquest is all about" and crap like that.

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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
106. Personally I don't think there's any question about that.
Edited on Wed Sep-26-07 09:08 PM by Mythsaje
But I don't LIVE in Iran and can't do a damned thing to change it EXCEPT, maybe, to support them bombing the shit out of all the innocent people who live there as well as the assholes. Or to support the democratic movement there in a way our "leaders" don't.

HERE, at least, I can sometimes affect things. Maybe. If the assholes here will let me.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
12. K& R
Good post
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
13. So you so much for posting this
Edited on Wed Sep-26-07 11:15 AM by edwardlindy
Can generally be summed up as "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" Doesn't make Armathingy right but puts the subject in perspective.

Coincidently, and with the same thought in mind, I tried this morning to find a map showing the original "homelands" of the different tribes but blanked. If anyone has one please let me have the link.
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Sequoia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
19. Here's a documentary you might be interested in:


THE SAND CREEK MASSACRE is an examination of an open wound in the souls of the Cheyenne and Arapaho people as told from their perspective. On November 29, 1864, Colorado militia savagely slaughtered over 150 peace-seeking Cheyenne and Arapaho men, women, and children under the protection of the 1861 Treaty of Fort Wise. This act became known as the Sand Creek Massacre.

Centennial, Colorado Writer and Filmmaker Don Vasicek's documentary was named one of the best films of the year by the Philip S. Miller Library's Bull Theatre Film Project. This excellent film is an accurate examination of historical events and cultural affects on an entire nation of people. This film chronicles that horrific 19th century event and its affect on the 21st century struggle for respectful coexistence between white and Native American plains cultures. It is now available for educators, organizations, and individuals on DVD. 22 minutes.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://www.manataka.org/page633.html&h=476&w=476&sz=176&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=NFRQVrcnIPPy1M:&tbnh=129&tbnw=129&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfilm%2Bsand%2Bcreek%2Bmassacre%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN
**************************
On October 27 the Bay Area United Against War will feature this film during the anti-war march that day.
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
20. I love the grand hypocracy here in America
"We're a nation of free and just people!"
:puke:

I also love how the Israeli army is one of the finest in the world, but somehow the ragtags they hunt down with their air force and the houses they destroy with their bulldozers belong to "dangerous terrorists" and "Iran supported armies"

Horrible things happen when people are above question, for any reason.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
21. i SO agree with
you.

There are others i'd like to add- but your post is too important to mess with.

VERY well said-

Thank you for the reality check- love isn't blind, it is self less enough to point out the uncomfortable truth, at the risk of being met with angry denial- because the truth is sometimes incredibly difficult to face, and deal with.


very glad to recommend.

peace~
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gaspee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
23. Silly rabbit
Everything America does is right and just. Everything non-Americans do can be criticized.

Read a few of the threads in the Native American forum and how many Du'ers think Native Americans should just get over it because they lost. Seriously. I am not kidding.

Standard disclaimer of how I am not an Ahmadinejad support, just in case.
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
24. This has NOTHING to do with Skinner's post.
Edited on Wed Sep-26-07 11:27 AM by DeepModem Mom
This attempt to change the subject is infuriating. No one here is denying this happened in our own country. But that doesn't even matter. It has NOTHING to do with the issue Skinner addressed. This post strikes me as a clear attempt, and it's not usunusal here, to take over DU for some purpose for which it is not intended -- and that seems to be to hate our country at all costs. Most of us are here, I think, because we love this country, and want to make IT what it should be. This site was founded on a stolen election -- a slap in the face to our country, and the system the Founders left us.

For the record, I'm of effing Native American ancestry.

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Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #24
31. Thank you
:thumbsup:

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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #24
47. It's not a matter of hating America.
It's a matter of our level of self-righteousness when pointing out other nations' flaws.

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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #47
51. So we can't ever criticize other nations? nt
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #51
56. Sure we can - but we should be aware of how we do it to avoid
looking like ridiculous hypocrites - as I said, self-righteousness.

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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #56
63. Maybe that's why Skinner was short and to the point. I saw nothing self-righteous...
about it.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #63
73. i acknowledge your
right to view it this way- but can you accept that others may have seen something you didn't?

Something that you wouldn't see given your own view- a view which is not 'wrong' in any way, but rather 'different' than anothers may be? isn't that what the whole idea of 'discussion' is all about?

not wanting anything other than to learn and share-
peace-
to you and to all.

blu
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. I can. Peace to you, too. nt
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #51
58. does it piss you off that Craig was so anti Gay? Does it piss you off that
the republic party calls Democrats the "tax and spend" "nanny" "big brother" govt?
while passing the kind of legislation that has passed over the last many years?

If we have skeletons in our closet- if we are dis'ing others while strutting around like perfection incarnate- we better prepare ourselves for far worse than the introspection that is being called for by fellow DUers- Credibility and integrity matter. The past is evidence of our trustworthiness- You don't like Ahadin. pointing fingers at the US and to counter it you point to the flaws rampant in his own country- how does this work again???? I'd rather my friend pointed out my problems to me before letting me go off to try and straighten out someone else-

:crazy:

At least in my opinion- which is no less or more valid than yours.

craving peace~

blu
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #58
64. I am talking about a simple statement that one man...
is a Holocaust denier. I saw no strutting.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
26. Most American's knowledge of history is, "Yesterday I went shopping".
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Tian Zhuangzhuang Donating Member (422 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
29. Good lord half of American history was how we killed Indians,
Edited on Wed Sep-26-07 11:35 AM by Tian Zhuangzhuang
enslaved blacks, threw hawaiians of cliffs, beat up the spanish, beat up the English, Beat up the French, massacred the pirates, killed the buffalo, raped the land, shot the unions, fried the anarchists, disenfranchised the woman, abused the Chinese and that all frontier americans were either rustlers, cut throats, murderers, bounty hunters, desperadoes, mugs, pugs, thugs, nitwits, halfwits, dimwits, vipers, snipers, con men, Indian agents, Mexican bandits, muggers, buggerers, bushwhackers, hornswogglers, horse thieves, bull dykes, train robbers, bank robbers, ass-kickers, shit-kickers or Methodists.


Sorry channeled Blazing Saddles at the end there. Anyhow they taught us this in elementary school... in the '70s.... It's not like it's a secret.

Kind of a point of pride we turned out so good with such a dubious beginning. (half sarcasm cause i love and believe in this country and all its people.)
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CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. really!?
Well I went to school in the 1960s and was told that the Indians were all in the missions and had basically just died out period, end of story.

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Tian Zhuangzhuang Donating Member (422 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #34
38. well the American Indian movement had just taken over Alcatraz
and everyone seemed to be in an apologetic mood. The of course Star Wars came out and we were reminded of the glories of a just war once again. :evilgrin:
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #38
57. Wow. Really? What happened?
Did the CIA/FBI shut the progress down?

I wish many of those folks (because I know some folks in law enforcement do get it) would understand that they ruin it for themselves and their futures and their kids futures, when they follow such orders in order to collect a pay check and in order to destroy what needs to happen.

So much of unecessary pain comes from ignorance of not understanding the history and the situations in front of us to begin with.
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american_typeculture Donating Member (227 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #29
36. By "good" do you mean "wealthy"?
Because I know you damn sure don't mean virtuous.
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Tian Zhuangzhuang Donating Member (422 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #36
41. I was being snarky will edit for clarity nt
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Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #29
43. Half of the history of all modern countries is made of
Edited on Wed Sep-26-07 11:38 AM by seasonedblue
similar inhuman atrocities. The question is what do they stand for now, what governments hang gays and subjugate women as a rule of law today?
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Tian Zhuangzhuang Donating Member (422 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. Thank You I hate it when people use our past
To excuse their friends present.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #44
49. people use the past to justify everything-
shouldn't matter squat if it is recent past- distant past.

Don't want to drag this thread away from it's focus- but let me ask you- How well has the Native American Culture done under 'democracy'? Where is their sovereign Nation State? Why do people say "well we really fucked over the Native Americans"- and feel satisfied that simply saying "we done wrong"
makes everything okey-dokey?


"Never Again" is a good meme- sincerely embraced and applied to countless atrocities- would do this sorry old world some major good.
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CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #49
55. it continues today
ever been to the Pine Ridge Reservation? Ever been to Ft. Hall, Idaho?

Ever been to the Wind River Reservation?

The holocaust continues ...

and no one says they are "sorry" because they do not give a sh*t!


:kick:
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #55
60. i completely agree with you, and
share your frustration and fury.

I AM sorry- and i don't believe that is 'enough' or that the issue is settled-

peace~
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CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #60
65. you are one of a few
believe me on that one.

Thank you for giving a sh*t btw. :hug:
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #55
105. I give a s*** about people who get the short end of the stick
But I give less than 1/2 a s*** about people who twist the words of other people for their own political gain...which is how I see all of this.

Why was it ok to ask for Iran's secretary of state(which is basically what he is, from what I understand) to be vilified for delivering the message of the oligarchs he serves?

Face it, we may not LIKE Condi(or shrub, for that matter), but we never assume that she is speaking for herself(or himself), thought the argument can be made that they approve of the message.

From that point, and from having basically no moral high ground in the world, how do we get to the point of accusing him of various things(most of which have been discredited), and expect the world to go along with this???

Just my particular take, adding to the OP.
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Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #49
59. I don't disagree with you,
Edited on Wed Sep-26-07 12:12 PM by seasonedblue
the Native American culture was destroyed, and I don't feel any self satisfaction about that. I was commenting on the nature of conquest and nation building as an inescapable fact of human existence. Even in the "Americas" prior to the European invasion. Is it possible for a modern culture to render justice on every group that's been decimated in the name of a particular civilization? Maybe a partial yes for the Native Americans. I don't know.

I just don't know how this is relevant to atrocities that are happening right now, as we sit here discussing this.


edited: --->ever been to the Pine Ridge Reservation? Ever been to Ft. Hall, Idaho?

--->Ever been to the Wind River Reservation?

The holocaust continues ...

and no one says they are "sorry" because they do not give a sh*t!

..............................................................................................

No, I've never been to those reservations, but if we can help, we should.



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CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. at least we are discussing it
before it was never discussed - it just "happened". We need more discussions like this.

Discussions can lead to action IMO.
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Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #61
66. Yes, that's very true.
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CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. I wish it had been discussed
as I recently found out that I am a survivor of this brutal genocidal holocaust and no one ever bothered to tell me nor my own mother about it.

How would like you like finding such info. out about yourself when you are over 50 years old and having a dead mother that never knew who she was? Talk about setting the stage for a major dysfunctional life. At least now I understand why it has been this way. No family, no home, no nothing because nothing is left on purpose. They'd hoped I'd fade into the woodwork and become another WASP which I am not (my father made this quite clear to me I will admit - you are NOT a WASP!).

I would have never found out had the plans stayed in place. Too bad I started asking a lot of questions. Seek and ye shall find it seems.




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Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. That's absolutely horrible, I'm so sorry.
Edited on Wed Sep-26-07 12:31 PM by seasonedblue
My grandmother's sister, her husband, and children were brutally murdered in the Ludlow massacre, but our entire family is fully aware of it, and it informs our political outlook today. I can't imagine how I'd feel if I'd just learned about this now.
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CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. it is gut wrenching
I very recently found out about this and yes, it has been quite the shock to say the least.

As for my late mother, my real feelings are with her. She never knew who she was and believed the lies she was told. She was anything but "French", believe me.

Given the times, everyone did this (they all said they were "white"). Mother has one foster sister still living (in her 80s) and she is 1/2 Indian herself yet is still in denial even though she has known her entire life. She is ashamed is what it boils down to.

I say to her, ashamed? Ashamed of WHAT? You are a survivor and that is nothing to be ashamed of! She replies, "Well I am a white Baptist."

:argh:

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Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #72
79. That's so sad for your aunt to feel that way,
Edited on Wed Sep-26-07 01:00 PM by seasonedblue
but maybe she'll change when she discovers what a rich culture she's part of. I wish you the very best, I hope it can turn into a wonderful adventure learning about a new facet of your identity, no matter how you learned about it.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #61
71. i understand Seasonedblue and agree COV- we often
Edited on Wed Sep-26-07 01:00 PM by Bluerthanblue
become somewhat blind and calloused to our own issues- they don't go away- this discussion needs to happen, there are many discussions that need to happen so that people can learn, understand, and move forward towards a tomorrow that offers something other than more of the same-

Some are genuinely ignorant- some are willfully ignorant. We can only change what we are willing to face.

Denial doesn't just mean saying "it never happened"- if i've learned anything through this Iran Holocaust crap i've learned this:

Denial can also mean discounting the experiences that happen to others- The stubborn refusal to see things through anything other than our own lens- even for one moment. The unwillingness to allow a person to the right to own their own life- ... The insistance that people adopt our paradigm.

to many words for something so basic- i'm sorry....

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere"

"The hope of a secure and livable world lies with disciplined nonconformists who are dedicated to justice, peace and brotherhood."
MLKjr
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Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #71
75. Very wise words
Edited on Wed Sep-26-07 12:42 PM by seasonedblue
I completely agree with you. Denial allows us to see the world framed in our own small, selfish persepective, and it's also a convenient way to avoid taking any action that might help change things.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
35. "Chief Black Kettle"
Pretty clever. ;-)

Julie
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american_typeculture Donating Member (227 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #35
39. I just noticed that.
Not intentional, but apt. Pot meet Kettle.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
40. Thank you. K&R nt
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Th1onein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
45. Does anyone have a link on this Holocaust Denial thing?
I'd like to see this, or read about it, from a reputable source. Did the guy from Iran really deny that the Holocaust happened?
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Tian Zhuangzhuang Donating Member (422 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #45
50. Your kidding right....
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Th1onein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #50
93. I'm sorry, but I'm not.
You know, not everyone can stay in touch with the news all of the time. I've never seen it, and there is a big debate about it. I'd like to see something so that I can make up my mind, one way or the other.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #50
103. Do you have a link?
Every time I've seen anything he said about the Holocaust, he's said it happened but that he doesn't think it means the Jews should have colonized a homeland in the Middle East.

Bin Ladin has taken the same line in his latest screed, his point being that Jews were not massacred in Morocco or Egypt or Muslim Andalus, but in Christian Spain, Germany, England, and Russia.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #45
52. dead horse- lets address the actions of America the land of the
Free and the home of the Brave- at least on this thread?

(not meaning to speak for the OP-) Just believe this information about our past is vital to understand and acknowledge.

peace~
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #45
54. No he didn't but people wanting to kill Iranians said that he did.
n/t
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #45
62. First read this post
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1894933

Then allow for the fact that the myth statement was used in the same speech. He kinda alluded to it yesterday when he refered to the motives of the Allied Powers in creating the State where it is now as opposed to say Alabama after WW2.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #45
100. He hosted a holocaust denial conference
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #45
101. No, he has said several times that millions of Jews were killed by the Nazi's
He denies that, as a consequence of that mass murder, Israel should have been founded as a homeland for Jews.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
53. Check out Leonard Peltier, Wounded Knee and the murders of so many in the American Indian Movement.
Edited on Wed Sep-26-07 11:58 AM by shance
Heartbreaking.

The treatment of the Native AMerican is nothing short of an incredibly racist/superiorist delusional form of thinking, and is continually hostile and perhaps even jealous toward their ways of living, which are light years more sensible than the ones we've been taught as Anglo kids growing up.

The sugar which has been mandated to be placed in our diets, the television, the dumbing down and the brainwashing, the world of advertising which sucks us into thinking we are never enough unless we buy something that will make us better, oh and now all the plastic surgery craze, the eating disorders, bulemia, anorexia primarily in our young girls, the fixation on material things and the lack of value and sacredness in relationships, friendships, the expendability of individuals over material things, the alcohol consumption, the "War on Drugs" which is a way for the most wealthy to make a killing on those living in poverty and in unhappiness.

Those like Custer, Sherman and many others who perhaps were simply following orders, nevertheless wrongfully attacked, assaulted, terrorized, humiliated, starved, disease the great people of the Plains and the entire US continue and as such were racist, egomaniacal narcissists, superiorists who essentially many of were bad people, selfish, greedy, hateful, sadistic, highly dangerous, two faced individuals.

As such, they did none of us any favors.

Today the exploitation of the Native Americans continues through the looting of millions by individuals like Jack Abramoff and others.

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Kelly Rupert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
68. Nobody's denying this. Is this supposed to be defending Ahmadinejad? n/t
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american_typeculture Donating Member (227 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #68
74. If you are American then you come from a culture that denies this fact.
It's entrenched in our cultural beliefs that America = good, done no wrong.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #68
78. think hard about the concept of "denying it"---
it is much more complicated than it appears imo-

I don't believe this thread is about 'defending' anything. I believe it is about examining what was done and what continues to be done by a people (who voice a desire to live honorably and fairly amongst all humanity) to a people who are still being oppressed and suffering as a result.

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softwarevotingtrail Donating Member (107 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
77. 1.5 million Vietnamese + 2 million Cambodians + 1 million Iraqis
No need to go back so far in history, my friend. We're at about 4.5 million souls and counting, either directly or indirectly, in the last 50 years.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. However valid the topic, in itself, you are being jerked around by the neocons
by rising to the bait at this juncture of their choosing, in furtherance of an agenda that is far from likely to have anything to do with mercy or justice. Divide and rule.
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ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #77
81. You might say we export a continual state of holocaust.
It is especially hypocritical to see us in the middle of a holocaust against the Iraquis, where over 600,000 have died, maybe even a million.

But I hold with special importance the American Indian holocaust, because it is in our own backyard. It brings this historic genocide home. We still have not learned to talk about in classrooms. Strange how that works, when it's in our own backyard.

Also, I recomend the documentary film "Why We Fight", which may help explain the vast history of conflicts of the military industrial complex.
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softwarevotingtrail Donating Member (107 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #81
92. Why We Fight is a great movie
I agree totally.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #77
91. I agree with Kucinich...it's time for a "Department of Peace!" Hate & Killing need to stop...
We had a chance at making diplomacy work after Vietnam...until every President (except Carter) decided that bombing another country was the way to Come In and Make a Statement in the first year of their Presidency.

Time to end all Holocausts no matter who is being killed or for what reason...war should only be the last resort when everything has been exhausted.
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ellie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
84. I've been there
It is a lonely place.
<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a>
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RangerRK Donating Member (318 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
87. Genocide Denial: We have killed over One Million Iraqis!!
Most people are in denial of what we have done in Iraq as well.

Not only have we killed over ONE MILLION Iraqis for NO REASON...we have spread Depleted Uranium over the entire region which will cause cancer, deform babies and kill Iraqis for many years to come.
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
90. Just like Eichmann.

"Chivington was later denounced in a congressional investigation and forced to resign."

Remember when Berlin courtmartialed Eichmann after finding out what he was doing at Auschwitz? Funny. Neither do I.


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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-27-07 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #90
110. It's worse
Although we don't know, there are some indications Hitler lost his shit and damn near fired Rommel when Rommel said he'd heard about "certain activities in the East" that would "make reconciliation after the war difficult". This was shortly before the assassination attempt, and is possibly why he was out of Hitler's graces enough to have been forced to kill himself.
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
95. I'll go out on a limb here
Edited on Wed Sep-26-07 06:33 PM by provis99
Many Indians were killed, it is true, but it wasn't genocide. Genocide is a term tossed around too lightly. I define it as the complete elimination of an ethnic group, and attempted genocide as an attempt to completely eliminate an ethnic group. I don't think there's any doubt that had the Nazis had complete control over Jewish inhabited areas, Jews would have been completely exterminated. That's genocide. With Indians however, they have been in our complete control for decades, yet they still exist.

Massacred, yes. Oppressed, yes. But not any differently than different ethnic groups throughout the world have been, throughout history.

By the weak standards for defining genocide that too many people toss around, you might as well declare the Thirty Years War in Europe a genocide against Germans, since nearly half of them were wiped out, or the CounterReformation as a genocide of Catholics against Protestants, or the destruction of French Hugenots by French Catholics as a genocide.

On the other hand, there was a real genocide of one Indian tribe in Newfoundland, the Beothuks, who are completely extinct. But this genocide was carried out by their Indian neighbors, not settlers.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #95
97. Yeah, sounds like something Ahmadinejad would say.
"it wasn't genocide."

That right there is holocaust denial.
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #97
98. well said.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #95
99. There are still Jews alive in Europe, too
I personally count what happened to the Native Americans as "genocide" because it was an attempt to eradicate them, and one of history's more successful ones.

Incidentally, I see the OP's point, I think. Americans don't deny the historical occurrence of the genocide of the Native Americans, but then again Ahmadi-Najad does not deny that millions of Jews were killed by the Nazi's. Ahmadi-Najad denies that the Holocaust justified the creation of the state of Israel, just like we deny that the Native Americans deserve their land back. Or something like that.
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ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #95
104. Genocide definition.

genocide

/jennsid/

• noun the deliberate killing of a very large number of people from a particular ethnic group or nation.

— DERIVATIVES genocidal adjective.

— ORIGIN from Greek genos ‘race’ + -CIDE.


http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/genocide?view=uk

It doesn't have to be the complete elimination of a race. Otherwise, we'd be continually debating whether or not a particular race was eliminated or just mostly killed off. The American Indians were mostly killed off, and driven off of there lands, Christianized, and whatever else it took to destroy the original inhabitants of our country.

In the Americas, Christianity was used to destroy their culture, just in case the genocide wasn't enough. Here is a favorite source of mine, relevant to both North and South America (emphasis mine):


NELSON ROCKEFELLER and Evangelism in the Age of Oil

"Thy Will Be Done", The Conquest of the Amazon:

by Gerard Colby with Charlotte Dennett
Harper Collins, 1995. 960 pages

reviewed by Carmelo Ruiz

(snip)

The Rockefeller-led effort to conquer the Amazon and exploit its natural riches had been made possible in no small measure by SIL's missionary activities. Colby and Dennett found a historic parallel in John D. Rockefeller, Sr.'s support for Christian missionaries in the American west, who were compiling extremely useful information on Native American communities, which were potential sources of opposition to the entrance of Standard Oil into their lands.' As a bonus, the evangelization process weakened the American Indians' social structure and so undermined their resolve to fight for their rights. The authors quote Baptist reverend Frederick Gates, who for many years was John D. Sr.'s right-hand man, as saying that "We are only in the very dawn of commerce, and we owe that dawn to the channels opened up by Christian missionaries.... The effect of the missionary enterprise of the English speaking peoples will be to bring them the peaceful conquest of the world."


http://www.cephas-library.com/church_n_state_rockefeller_and_evangelism.html
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #95
108. Well, I'm going out on a limb and post an immature cat macro
Because "are you fucking for real?" is about the only thing I can say to your post.

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txwhitedove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #95
109. Where have you been, where did you go to school, what do you read?
"Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee" was a profound and famous book 35-years ago! I'm dumbfounded, and wish I could snap my fingers to recall all I've read or find it on the internet for you. There are 100's of now extinct Indian tribes all due to white settlers, if not outright murdered.

Here's just a quicky found on one state, just South Carolina alone: http://www.sciway.net/hist/indians/

"At least 29 distinct groups of Indians lived (Past tense) within South Carolina. These groups are called tribes. Today, the many places in South Carolina that bear the names of tribes attest to the important role Indians played in the state's history.

Sadly, the Indian population in South Carolina and throughout the United States greatly declined after the arrival of Europeans. Tribes were weakened by European diseases, such as smallpox, for which they had no immunity. Epidemics killed vast numbers of Indians, reducing some southeastern tribes by as much as two-thirds. Populations declined even further due to conflicts with the settlers over trade practices and land. (Conflicts=Final Solution=Genocide)

Many of the tribes that once lived in South Carolina are now extinct. This means that there are either no surviving members or that they no longer organize themselves as a tribe."

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