What Ahmadinejad is and what he isn't...

[JCMach1]

It's type to separate the hype and media maelstrom from the man who is the President of Iran.

1. He is an elected President, not a Dictator.

2. Presidents in the Republic of Iran are largely figure heads for mullahs in charge of the Supreme Council.

3. He was elected as a right-wing populist... the common man who understood how to begin fixing Iran's economy. Think Pat Buchanan in a bad suit.

4. Right-wing populists in the middle-east tend to be anti-semitic across the board (keep in mind the Israeli counterparts tend to be profoundly anti-arab). Yet for some reason (perhaps with some legitimacy) the press has chosen to make Ahmadinejad the poster-boy for anti-semitism. The reality is that there is very little difference between his views and the vast majority of ME leaders. That doesn't make it right, but that's the way it is. It's vicious cycle of hatred for which both sides bear the responsibility (Israelis, and Arab/Muslims).

5. Iran has a legitimate need for electrical power. Nuclear is a logical step for them that avoids turning horrible pollution (already) in cities like Tehran into an even worse nightmare.

6. Iran sees their national security neighborhood as a dangerous place. India, Pakistan, and Israel all have the bomb. The US maintains bases all over the region. The only neighbor that it maintains good relations with is Armenia. So, the mullahs would not mind having the bomb themselves.

7. Having the bomb gives your nation incredible negotiating leverage (see the N. Korean experience). Iran needs economic sanctions to end to prosper economically.

8. The President of Iran has little control over what happens under local Sharia law. Just as an American president would have little control over people who are executed in Texas...

9. He isn't in control of how gays, or women are treated in Iran. This is completely dependent on how the mullahs are interpreting Sharia at a given time. Homosexuality in Persian culture is strictly don't ask, don't tell. You can think of Ahmadinejad's response to the question as the same type of response you might get from a military general. Uhhhhh, we don't have homosexuals here... A howler, but there it is. The issue of women in Iran is more complex as issues of Islam get tangled with cultural issues. Islam itself was very progressive in its view of women (especially considering the Koran is an 8th century document). However, even those rights tend to get swamped when colliding with traditionally patriarchal and repressive societies. So, Ahmadinejad would see women's issues through the rose-coloured glasses of Islamic views of women's rights. However, Shareen Ebadi would say that's exactly the kinds of rights that are being ignored in the overall culture... particularly in the legal system.

10. So what is Ahmadinejad then... Ultimately, he is the PR mouthpiece for the Iranian ruling council and a rather large mouthpiece at that. Unfortunately, he is a rather common guy/voice in the ME at this time. His views are not out of the mainstream here. We should take that as a warning, not that the evil, anti-semitic, atomic terrorists are coming... Instead, we should take it as a sign of how far any sort dialog for peace has drifted.

Peaceful dialog is ultimately what is needed here... Bush should have met him at ground zero with the hand of peace and a warning about just the sort of drift we are talking about.

Hey, but that would have taken a man of vision... a difficult thing when the US is a nation where the blind lead the blind.

[emilyg]

1. Carter would have met him.

[JCMach1]

2. Exactly, I just wanted to carve some middle ground here

on the issue...

My God, the media showed hours of the anti-Ahmadinejad protests by a few hundred people... and exactly how much did the cover war protests in the last year???

The stink of manipulation was everywhere.

So, I believed there was some need to separate the reality from the propaganda.

[DemBones DemBones]

5. Very nice job, too. But do add where you live and

how long you've lived there to the OP for the newbies who don't know.

The massive coverage of protests is infuriating when they've downplayed every anti-war protest.

The president of Columbia was outrageous in his insults to an invited speaker.

[ashling]

10. Remind me to never accept a speaking

engagement at Columbia while this guy is president there ...

not that there was ever a chance in hell that I would ever be asked to speak at Columbia
LOL

[DemBones DemBones]

6. Dupe post so I'll just add be sure to see the post

about Ward Harkavy's "The Bush Beat" in the Village Voice exposing all the bad guys we've cozied up to, including the guy from Uzbekistan who has people boiled to death but was allowed to lay a wreath at Ground Zero, with zero media coverage.

[entanglement]

3. Nice post

[ConsAreLiars]

4. About time for a little bit of a reality check - K&R

Surprising how much ignorance has been displayed on DU today. Some of the loudest posters seem to be drooling over the prospect of another holy war.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JCMach1]

14. Idiot, who wants to put radioactive oil in their tank

EXTREME :sarcasm:

[ConsAreLiars]

20. Well, it's generally against DU rules to call another poster

a crazy murderous right wing moron with genocidal tendencies, but I suspect that when someone who takes on the name of "kucinich voter" and advocates nuking Iran the mods might make an exception. Goodbye.

[Skidmore]

30. Kucinich, eh?

[Jed Dilligan]

39. Wow that might be a world record

Your fourth post!

[DemBones DemBones]

40. But he hasn't been tombstoned!

Kucinich voter, my :kick:

[Jed Dilligan]

41. World record for self-outing is what I meant

I guess some of them do it with 1 post.

[DemBones DemBones]

42. I've seen some tombstoned on their first post, which had

to be intentional, or incredibly stupid! Maybe nobody alerted on this guy?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

46. You're a Kucinich voter like George W. is devoted to democracy

:eyes:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

49. "Kucinich voter"? Was Lance Uppercut taken?

[cynatnite]

7. Well, he is a rabid RW religious nutjob...

Says that Islam should rule mankind. Denies there are gays in Iran despite the fact that the government has persecuted and executed them. The reason the man was elected is because he's willing to kiss the ass of the clerics. He needed their support to win.

No matter what, though, he represents an oppressive government that stones women, hangs gays and is contemptuous of everything that is of not their religion. Just as bush represents a government that practices capital punishment, wages unnecessary war, promotes homophobia, and has just as much contempt for other religions as does his Iranian counterpart.

In the end, both men are religious nutjobs who play to their base and could care less about the people murdered under their regimes.

Neither man gets a free pass from me. They are both cut from the same cloth, IMO.

[JCMach1]

9. Keeping telling yourself he is a radical and you completely dig a hole for yourself

He is relatively MAINSTREAM...

By marginalizing him and demonizing him, we shut down even the possibility of conversation or negotiation.

That was the drift I was talking about.

[cynatnite]

11. If he's mainstream then so is bush

I'm not against talking to him. I'm against ignoring his words and the actions of the government he represents.

[JCMach1]

12. I think there is a key difference... the majority of Americans

do not support Bush's foreign policy and many other views...

It's not the same for his Iranian counterpart. His views ARE the majority views of his people on most issues sadly enough.

[cynatnite]

16. Not really...

there is a a lot of dissatisfaction from much of the public from what I've read and heard. No solid poll numbers (don't think they do that there) showing his popularity is as low as bush's, but much has been said that he's concentrating too much on the anti-American rhetoric and PR stunts than on problems at home. The economy is in trouble there and he's not doing much about it. There have been student protests and women across the country are just beginning to push back against their restrictions.

To me, in many ways, both men are complete opposites, but still so much alike in their rigid ideologies and intelligence. They both are answerable to their hardline RW minority crowds. It's hard to tell the difference between them, IMO.

[JCMach1]

26. How he is viewed as a politician in his own country is another issue

and I can verify that the majority of Persians I meet think he is an idiot. However, there is a cynicism about leaders here that you don't find in the West.

Every leader is bad until proven otherwise.

[cali]

36. It's my understanding that the majority of Iranians do not

support his views, thus the defeat of candidates associated with him. It is also my understanding that his views are not supported by a large segment of the population, particularly younger voters and urban dwellers.

Election Seen as Setback for Iran’s President
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By NAZILA FATHI
Published: December 18, 2006
TEHRAN, Dec. 18 — Partial returns from Friday’s Iranian elections suggested today that President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad had experienced a major setback barely over a year after his own election.

The victory of a pragmatic politician, Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, over a hard-line candidate associated with Mr. Ahmadinejad gave one strong indication that voters favored more moderate policies. Mr. Rafsanjani won almost twice as many votes as the hard-liner, Ayatollah Muhammad Taqi Mesbah Yazdi, for a position in the 86-member Assembly of Experts. The Assembly has the power to replace the supreme religious leader.

Final results for the Assembly of Experts showed that more than 65 candidates close to Mr. Rafsanjani were elected. Mr. Rafsanjani lost out to Mr. Ahmadinejad in the 2005 election runoff for president. The voter turnout was over 60 percent — much higher than in previous years.

Mr. Mesbah Yazdi, who is considered the spiritual mentor President Ahmadinejad, won an assembly seat but with a low total. Few of his allies won.

Although the results for other voting that day, for local city councils, have not been totaled up, it appeared that hard-line supporters of Mr. Ahmadinejad have failed to win the majority in most key cities.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/18/world/middleeast/19irancnd.html?ex=1324098000&en=53328b695ff5fba0&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

[JCMach1]

13. Certainly not for ignoring the obvious...

just understanding the context and that he is not a RW nutjob and dictator as some would paint him.

[cynatnite]

18. Some students in Iran think he's a dictator...

Iran's president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, faced an unprecedented outburst of public opposition today from student demonstrators who burned his picture and chanted "death to the dictator".

In the first sign of open dissent since he took office last year, dozens of activists shouted abuse and set off firecrackers as Mr Ahmadinejad addressed students at Tehran's Amir Kabir university. They were voicing anger at what they say is an increasing repressiveness on Iran's campuses under his government. A presidential aide said 50 to 60 students took part in the protest.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,,1969808,00.html

This is from last year. Do you think the students changed their minds about him?

[JCMach1]

21. Dissent is not a bad thing-- it is the Demographics, not Democracy

that will bring down the regime over time.

The vast majority of the population was born post-revolution and are just now entering their political years.

Change is coming to Iran, soon... the only question is will the US be the enemy once again, or a player in the coming power struggle.

[eridani]

33. And more than half of the university students are women

That is an extremely helpful trend, given the courage of Iranian feminists like Shirin Ebadi.

[Skittles]

15. mainstream people do not deny the Holocaust

I agree some dialogue needs to be had but the guy is as scummy as bush

[JCMach1]

19. Skittles, I can show you any number of mainstream people

in the ME who believe:

-the Holocaust was completely manufactured...
-the Holocaust happened, but was overblown because of Zionist propaganda
-and almost any other view between

Those views are the mainstream here even among the moderates (and yes the LEFT).

[cynatnite]

23. What's your definition of mainstream?

The majority?

It's always been my understanding that anyone who denies the Holocaust is pretty much on the fringes.

[Skittles]

24. THANK YOU

I know such nutjobs exist but to me they are far, FAR from "mainstream"

[JCMach1]

27. Not in the Middle-East... I am referring to my context here

from the UAE...

I speak of the opinions I find among students, professors, friends, and the general public that I meet. In terms of sampling, it's pretty good nation wise as there are 72 different ethnicities on my campus alone.

[Skittles]

31. only f***ing nutjobs think the Holocaust did not happen

f***ing sick people

[JCMach1]

35. That's why we need reality-based thinking

not what Bush and Ahmadinejad offer...

I wanted ask the Iranian President, "Why don't you count the ashes as they slip through your hands?"

Unfortunately, everything Jewish in the ME is viewed through the prism of the Israeli/Arab conflict and that means extreme positions on all sides.

[Douglas Carpenter]

50. exactly...

and many people interpret the holocaust as the claim of legitimacy for Israeli policy. So it is sometimes thoughtlessly dismissed. Even among Arabs within the Israeli state who hold full Israeli citizenship there is a good deal of skepticism about the holocaust.


I have met sincere, intelligent, moderate westernized Arabs who have asked sincerely if I believed the holocaust really happened and if it really involved millions of Jews. I have also been asked seriously and sincerely if I believed Saddam Hussein really gassed the Kurds. In both cases they were skeptical because they saw the news reports and historical record of these matters as an effort to justify a policy which they abhorred.


as you said, "Unfortunately, everything Jewish in the ME is viewed through the prism of the Israeli/Arab conflict and that means extreme positions on all sides."

[D23MIURG23]

52. No. Its people who don't want to believe who don't believe.

Its people who desperately want to cling to the ideals of national socialism, but can't make themselves (or know they can't make others) cold enough to dismiss 6 million graves.

Its also people who don't want to feel any sympathy for Israel, or see any justification for its existence. This latter reason being the obvious one making the idea marketable in the Middle East.

In any case the psychology is straightforward enough; if an idea causes enough cognitive dissonance the individual will remove it. Hateful people end up entertaining absurdities in order to maintain and justify their illogical emotional reactions.

I hope I don't sound too preachy, but I think this is an important point. The way toward becoming a hater isn't barred to any of us.

[tkmorris]

29. Yep

It seems to me that Ahmadinejad is in the second group, at least from perusing all of the comments of his I could find. I know he is portrayed as an outright denier, but I have yet to see proof of that.

[qdemn7]

57. Fuck him!

Any motherfucker that denies the Holocaust is not mainstream, or even relatively mainstream.

[entanglement]

59. Something to keep in mind

For every Holocaust denier, there are ten who are either indifferent or unaware it ever occurred. Outside the West and the Arab world, many don't really care about it, one way or another. I know it's hard to believe (I had a tough time of it myself when I first met people with such views) - but for perspective ask yourself how much the average Westerner cares about the 5+ million killed by Pol Pot. Humanity is imperfect.

[eridani]

32. Except that one has thousands of nukes and 700+ military bases around the world--

--and the other one doesn't.

[calimary]

17. I was wondering about those dynamics myself. Yours seems like

a pretty reasonable assessment, especially with the perspective you have. Most valuable points you make here, and they do make sense.

[mogster]

22. I think he's a patsy

It's more to Ahmadinejad than meets the eye. Don't forget history now.

[Poll_Blind]

25. K&R! n/t

PB

[Smarmie Doofus]

28. Realism..... Bah! Humbug! nt

[Disturbed]

34. The more he is being demonized the more popular he

becomes in Iran & the ME. The Busholini Regime is just downright stupid.

[JCMach1]

37. In the current environment that is definitely the case...

[mhatrw]

38. Good post. n/t

[kineneb]

43. thank you.

Ahmadinejad is fairly typical of many ME men. There is nothing special about him as a head of state for the region. You are correct that he has no control over much of what happens in Iran. He is merely the elected "hood ornament" of the Iranian government, and does not have the same function as the US president. To quote Hitchhikers Guide: "He's just this guy, you see."

The ME has different value systems and we need to stop judging them by our value system. Yes, they are centuries behind in human rights, but remember that in the ME, time simply stopped around the 14th century, and only in the 20th century have they really rejoined the rest of the world. They have yet to go through their version of the Renaissance and Enlightenment. Imagine time-traveling back to England of 1300; think of how women and others were treated then. It is simply impossible to drag a culture kicking and screaming forward 700 years, in less than a century. Despite the discrimination against Iranian women, they are still much better off than their sisters on the Arabian peninsula or Afghanistan.

One other thing about Iran that no one here understands- the people always play cat-and-mouse with the government, what ever variety it may be at the moment. It is a national game to see how much each person can get away with, without getting caught. So what ever the official laws of the moment may be, one can be certain that someone is trying to get around it somewhere. My word of advice: never try driving in Iran; the Iranian drivers make the Italians look like little old ladies out for a Sunday drive. I lived there a short time, so I know.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

44. As an American living in the Middle East, you provide a valuable perspective

I've been disgusted with the way some DUers are acting as if Ahmadinejad is a reason to invade Iran.

I don't care what anybody says: an invasion of Iran would be a disaster in every conceivable way.

[onenote]

45. so this statement by human rights watch is false?

"President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, elected in June 2005, appointed a cabinet dominated by former members of the intelligence and security forces, some of whom are allegedly implicated in the most serious human rights violations since the Islamic Republic of Iran was established twenty-six years ago, such as the assassination of dissident intellectuals."

And Amnesty International?
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engmde130102006

[killbotfactory]

47. Sexual orientation isn't legally recognized in Iran

therefor, according to them, there are no homosexuals in Iran, only heterosexual people engaging in homosexual acts. Ridiculous, but there it is. Remind you of any prominent political group in America?

[Douglas Carpenter]

48. thank you...I have lived in the Middle East about 20 years and I think this is a fair statement

I would only make one qualifier -- Almost everyone I have met in the Arab/Islamic Middle East has a low opinion of Ahmadinejad even among the Shiites I have talked to.

[Babsbrain]

51. I can't believe how people are being sucked in to the propaganda

The same people who gave us "Weapons of Mass Destruction" and "Terrorist State Iraq" and "Iraq Attacked Us on 9/11" are now filling some people's brain with the same lies.

Not ONE of us knows the truth. We don't live in Iran. We can only know what we know from sources which must be questioned. We can not trust what we read or hear anymore. And until we know from personal experience, then don't allow the propaganda mills to be successful.

And who the hell are we to impose our "Girls Gone Wild" morality standards on other countries.

Everybody has an agenda. That's why there are at least two sides to every story.

[ruggerson]

53. Is "Don't ask don't tell" your little euphemism

for the public murdering of gay teens?

[Skittles]

55. a little light on the facts, yes

:o

[Junkdrawer]

54. .

[mirrera]

56. Thank you, well put.

After reading "All the Shah's Men" about the CIA coup to overthrow Mossadegh to save a British Oil company from being privatized, I realize I know nothing and believe nothing the corporatocracy tells me. If they could take a man like Mossadegh from being Time's Man of the year, all the way down to despotic communist lover in Americans' eyes, what can't they do with Ahmadinajad?

Thank you for some realistic assessment.

Hate night is exhausting.

[madrchsod]

58. the whitehouse needs a new demon and they found one

thanks for your rational post on the latest demon in the middle east.in my opinion rationality has been in short supply here.

[sniffa]

60. this is fLamebait

[Marrah_G]

61. Elected is a little less then genuine

Hardly anyone was allowed to run against him so it was pretty much like voting on a ballot with one name.

[Hatalles]

62. KR.

[Raster]

63. Excellent post. Thank you. A little perspective works WONDERS!

[Hell Hath No Fury]

64. Thank you for that perspective.

I think it is critical to fully understand the context of a situation before coming to a conclusion on how to successfully address it. Amhadinejad, or the current Iranian political scene for that matter, didn't happen in a vacuum. There were many steps to get there -- too many bad ones of our own making -- and there will be just as many steps to rectify what has been created.

IMO, our unwillingness to look at the situation in the entire Middle East from a 360 degree view has been one of our largest failings -- it has hurt us and hurt the countries of that region.

[deaniac21]

65. So you believe nuclear power avoids pollution? I guess the

radioactive halflife of hundreds of thousands of years for the waste by products is not a problem? Hmmmmmm.

[scarletwoman]

66. I am so sorry I found your thread too late to recommend it. You've done a wonderful service --

even though there are far too many here who would rather knee-jerk than (*gasp*) open their minds to a broader perspective.

Thank you for a great post,
sw

[renie408]

67. Me, too. Thanks. Excellent post. n/t

[scarletwoman]

69. I hope you're thanking JCMach1! Nice to see you here, btw.

I read through the entire Skinner "Holocaust Denier" thread earlier this evening and saw your posts. I would have liked to have posted some agreement with you there, but I'm on a very slow rural dialup connection -- loading that thread took over 1/2 an hour, no way was I gonna post on it.

I've been so upset over some of the Ahmadinejad threads over the past few days that I actually woke up this morning composing a post about it in my head -- an hour before my alarm was due to ring, even!

But one of my dogs got sick in the house and it ended up being all I could do to get to work barely on time. I logged on DU as soon as I got home, with the intention of finally composing the post that was in my head -- and then I saw the Skinner thread, and read the whole thing.

Which led me to think, "What's the fucking use?"

So, it's like finding water in the desert, to find this thread.

sw

[madeline_con]

68. About #1...

Given all the other info you shared, how free an election do you think they really have in Iran? I mean, really?

[mvd]

70. Unfortunately, both Iran and the U.S. have nuts as leaders

There is hope on the horizon though, as both Presidents are unpopular. Oh, and I agree - Ahmadinejad says some horrible stuff, but war isn't needed because of it. There is that PR factor.

[bpeale]

71. the university president acted like the boor he is...

I read the following on this on HuffPo this morning...a post by Scarabus:

"Two separate issues: First, was it appropriate to invite Ahmadinejad to speak? Of course! Even if one considers him an enemy, there is clear benefit in better understanding the enemy. And exchanging ideas is clearly preferable to exchanging bullets and bombs--Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld and Condi and similar economic imperialists notwithstanding.

But second, was it appropriate for Bollinger to take his cheap shot in the introduction? No way!! To have heard Ahmadinejad out and then contested or commented on his assertions would have been both civil and diplomatic. However, to invite a guest to one's campus and then insult him while introducing him? That was uncivil, unscholarly, and undiplomatic. That was bush league (pun intended!).

Yes, in my opinion Ahmadinejad is (or at least talks like) a combination pander and fanatic (sorta like Dubya, in fact, just to different fundamentalist fanatical bases). But shouting playground insults does nothing to diminish his influence. To the contrary, his declining to return the insults empowers him.

Bollinger was right to invite him. But Bollinger was a combination of CYA and brain-dead to proffer his juvenile intro. Plus one for Islamic extremism. Minus one for professionalism, peace, civility, and international concord. Bollinger was played like the Middle Eastern equivalent of a mandolin."

This just seemed so relevant to me.

[deaniac21]

72. Thank God he didn't invite Ann Coulter!