How many people here believe John Kerry won the 2004 election

[ProSense]

and should be president?

[yourout]

1. Count me in.

[EFerrari]

Me. n/t

[daninthemoon]

2. No doubt in my mind. What is in doubt is next year.

[goclark]

3. Absolutely!

[NewYorkerfromMass]

4. Bush got more votes

by keeping Kerry voters from casting theirs. Just like they did to Gore.

[SharonRB]

5. Me, me!!!!

Of course if Al Gore had taken his rightful place in 2000, we wouldn't even be talking about that, would we? President Gore would be winding down his second term and perhaps Kerry would be running in '08.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

6. Without A Doubt

King IDIOT hasn't won a national election.

[Bjornsdotter]

Here!

....:tinfoilhat:

[tritsofme]

7. Not me

And not John Kerry apparently...

[intheozone]

8. Of course he did. GWB never won anything honestly in

his entire sad, sorry-excuse-for-a-human-being life!

[Blue_In_AK]

9. Count me in.

And nothing that happened yesterday changes that opinion.

[DuckBurp]

10. I do

The people doing the exit polls couldn't be that far off.

[saltpoint]

I do I do.

[Withywindle]

11. Are we allowed to say 'I don't know'?

'Cause that's where I'm at. I *don't* know, and I don't think very many people do, and I don't think the ones who really do are gonna be screaming about it in capslock on DU.

Edit to clarify my position: and I *don't* blame John Kerry, either way.

[EFerrari]

19. If he didn't win, why did they fight then rig the recount?

:shrug:

[Withywindle]

23. Because they didn't know either

but it sure smelled bad. Bad enough to be worth investigating.

Who do you think rigged the recount? I think a lot of the vote was already corrupted electronically, so of course a recount was going to give pretty much the same result as election night. And a lot of the dirty work was done through voter *suppression* and you can't recount votes that were never cast.

There's no doubt in my mind that a lot of dirty shit went down. Was it enough to change the results? That I do not know. And can it ever be truly proven in a court of law? Probably not.

[EFerrari]

26. There's some great threads on this in the Election Reform Forum.

The recount was rigged, in part, manually with the aid of techs from the vendor. And meanwhile, Blackwell was giving seminars on business ethics.

You can't make this sh!t up! :shrug:

[baldguy]

12. I do

[fedupinBushcountry]

I do and

will for the rest of my life.

[YvonneCa]

34. Me, too...

...fedup. :)

[Richard Steele]

13. Undoubtedly he did. nm

[Toucano]

14. Me. n/t

[wildbilln864]

15. Aye! n/t

[Rick Myers]

16. If you solve Ohio, YES, he won.

[Buzz Clik]

17. Meh. Bush is still in the WH. What difference does it make now?

[YvonneCa]

139. A lot...

...of difference. It's still my country. It's still worth fighting for.

[Purveyor]

18. Kerry didn't but Gore did in 2000 and can again in 2008!!! eom

[Botany]

20. they ran Ohio's vote through "Samrtech" in Chattanooga,TN

Smartech had 3 other accounts.

bush/Cheney 04
the RNC
gwb43.com

BTW

Ohio had more registered Dems than repugs (no much but more)
new voters were 10 to 1 for Kerry
Ohio lost more jobs from 2000 to 2004 than any other state
exit polls had Kerry winningin a walk

[TommyO]

21. I believe he did

but he folded like a cheap house of cards and conceded. I wonder what W had on him to make him fold so quickly?

[BlueJazz]

22. I'd bet my life on it..

[blm]

24. Yes - Kerry won. RNC worked 4 years to steal it for Bush - again. DNC let them do it

for the four years they chose to not counter all the RNC's tactics they learned of during the hearings on 2000's theft.

[Botany]

25. Ohio here

what i did learn is that we were ready for Floirda 2000 and "they" had moved on to
new scams.

[EFerrari]

27. And they're doing it again. n/t

[CitizenLeft]

63. Ohio here too

Combo of voter suppression and electronic vote-flipping. Pisses me off all over again thinking about it.

[tekisui]

28. check.

[NoPasaran]

29. Not me

It doesn't mean I hate him, though.

[BlueIris]

30. Right here. And I don't "believe" it--I know it.

John Conyers' committee's findings, anyone? Hello?

Proud to be the 5th rec.

[Maraya1969]

31. ME

[LisaL]

32. Not me.

[KaptBunnyPants]

33. Without the known efforts to rig the election, he would have won.

[EFerrari]

35. Omg, do you remember Blackwell was throwing out voter registrations

because of the paper weight?

That election was so dirty, even dirt was ashamed.

[LisaL]

41. Blackwell tried to do it, but it didn't work.

I do not believe Kerry won OH. It wasn't even close.

[Richard Steele]

48. Every single fact I've read about Ohio '04 leads me to disagree with your opinion.

nm

[L. Coyote]

43. Numerous voters were purged in Cleveland inner-city wards, where 90% vote Dem, most people are black

this produced very long lines and delays, requiring lots of provisional ballots, many of which were not counted, and these wards have extremely high undervote rates. It all really piles up. Then, if you somehow got to vote after all that, there was a good chance, that if you voted Kerry, your vote counted for Bush due to vote-switching.

[EFerrari]

46. They also targeted college kids. Made them stand in alternate

long lines, robocalled them to tell them voting in the wrong place would kill their student aid and scholarship. Then, the Thuggery claimed these same students didn't show up for us. What a disgrace.

[Hangingon]

36. No.

[cui bono]

37. I don't believe it.

I know it.

[L. Coyote]

38. More important, GORE won in Florida. Bush and 9/11 should not have happened.

These criminals have destroyed the 21st century, and sent us careening down the wrong path, war, deficits, corruption, high oil prices, and all manner of problems we could have solved have only been ignored or worsened! So, given they stole 2000, 2004 and Kerry is mute, in a sense. It should not have even happened.

[IDemo]

39. I was 'vote4kerry' on the John Kerry forum

of course he won.

[Aristus]

40. ME!

:hi:

[trayfoot]

42. Yes....Kerry won in 2004 and.......

Gore won in 2000! Shrub is and always has been illigitimate!

[Quantess]

44. I do.

Kerry rightfully should be leading our country right now. It was stolen.
But 2000 election was stolen worse!

[SecularMotion]

45. Me n/t

[The Count]

47. I do. And I am angry he is silent about it. And that a lot of people do not know.

[melody]

49. Anyone who researches the matter knows he did n/t

[Jackpine Radical]

50. Me.

[subsuelo]

51. no doubt, Kerry won 04

[TroubleMan]

52. Right here. I was right here complaining of how he conceded too early.

Looks like I was right.

[The Count]

87. Me too. And Greg Palast on Air America, the morning before the election predicted it.

Which states will be stolen, and that Kerry won't have the stomach to fight. I eveb remember getting a bit angry at him: "How do you know he won't fight?" I argued with the radio....:shrug:

[nashville_brook]

53. here.

[Patchuli]

54. I do. nt

[dailykoff]

55. No doubt in my mind.

Even after the suppression. They just outright faked the tallies in OH.

[Seabiscuit]

56. Of course he won. But he was nothing but the lesser of two evils as a Presidential candidate.

So he only "deserved" the Presidency in the sense that if that votes had been properly counted he would have won the election.

[NV Whino]

57. Yes.

[Bitwit1234]

58. Two from my house and four from my sons.

[Patsy Stone]

59. I believe. n/t

[kster]

60. ME

K&R

[MrSlayer]

61. If he won, he'd be President.

He was cheated out of what should have been a victory but he didn't win as evidenced by the simian sitting in the oval office.

[The Count]

86. Cheated of, threw in the towel - lots of things, But he got more votes than *

that's absolutely certain in my mynd - the exit polls confirmed.

[foo_bar]

145. you'd think you were stating the obvious, but behold the power of denial

It seems that the vast majority of people self-selected by responding to this thread believe the same thing, namely that winning = losing.

The OP posed two questions: did he win, and should he be president? The answer to the first question is straightforward (figure 1. rose garden primate, see Electoral College), the should is what folks seem to be answering in the affirmative (or should be), but maybe President Kerry kicked President Gore's ass on some alternate timeline. The second answer is technically unknowable (if "should" means "should have won a plurality of electoral college votes, if conditions a..z were met"), but the cases for "should have won" span from Palast's believable but unverifiable 5 million disenfranchisees to fabricated (sub-)urban myths like "exit polls were never wrong before 2000!". Kerry should have won because he would have made a better president (out of a banana), but I don't understand the theory that he should have won but gave it all up for Skull & Bones; why would they bother stealing an election if both candidates were beholden to the same satanic cult? The same goes for the republicans=democrats crowd who often intersect with the alternate-election-history squad: if you think both candidates are exactly the same, why would 'they' be invested in any particular outcome?

[jpgray]

62. I believe he should be president. Did he "win" the election? Dunno

Since electoral fraud has been part and parcel of our system for sooo fucking long, it's hard to say that anyone really won. However I agree lots of fraud is evident in 2004, though it wasn't as close by the numbers* as in 2000.

[trashcanistanista]

64. I do. n/t

[robinlynne]

65. yes, as did Gore before him.

[Vektor]

66. Absolutely.

:thumbsup:

[Laurab]

67. I do - no doubt in my mind. n/t

[Triana]

68. I do - and Gore won in 2000, as well (n/t)

[bleever]

69. At the time, I was sure.

I just didn't expect that so many people would know it by this point.

But seeing, over the last 34 months, the dedication of the people who refused to let the truth be buried under the body of a free press paralyzed by the corporate control of what "should" be known as truth, I'm deeply gratified that my hopes for representative democracy, and free speaking people, were what I was taught they should be.

[RangerRK]

70. The exit polls were right!

How could Bush possibly win after all the bullshit he pulled?

[bleever]

71. And in case anyone here makes the mistake of thinking

that this about bashing John Kerry:

The fix was already in. There was no way he could have contested; the cheating was too diffused to be adjudicated neatly in one court. Even when Ohio was eventually recounted, it was done crookedly. Two people were convicted of criminal conduct in that fiasco.

I forgive John Kerry, especially now, knowing how he had less judicial relief available than Al Gore.

[RangerRK]

72. He could have fought for the truth?

And if he were participating in the Ohio recount the judge might have ruled differently
http://www.archive.org/download/election2004b/ohio-kerry-absent-k42d.mp3

And then there was obvious fraud in Florida, New Mexico, Nevada...the green party didn't have the money for all the recounts but if John Kerry had millions stashed away and lawyers on the ground to fight election fraud.

He actually asked for money to fight up until the day before the election.

[bleever]

73. My elbow hurt for weeks

before I understood why.

It was from hours in front of the computer, trying to make sense of the mathematical impossibility of Bush's "victory".

Recounts, challenges, on all possible levels: I was pushing the rock up the hill, along with incredibly good people, all through the 34 dark months since that election.

I know the details at this point.

[The Count]

90. And democracy? If he respected our vote? But for him it was all about himself

he said that "God was trying him". I felt I had been intruding on his affair with God - me with my silly vote and all....

[YvonneCa]

137. Thanks for saying this...

.... It's what I believe, too.

[pacalo]

74. Of course he did!

(Read my signature line.:) )

[Flabbergasted]

75. By hundreds of thousands of votes.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

76. I think he COULD have won

which is why I STILL think he was a ringer- he walked away without a fight. It even pissed Edwards off that he caved so easily.

He was a paid distraction. Nothing I've seen in the years since then has convinced me otherwise.

Can you say Skull & Bones?

[Mnemosyne]

128. Can you say "cousins" too?

Bush, Kerry & Hefner: Odd Cousins
CBS' Kuhn On Family Ties Between Bush, Kerry & Hugh Hefner

(CBS) By David Paul Kuhn,
CBSNews.com Chief Political Writer

President George W. Bush and Sen. John Kerry are related. Well, sort of. They're ninth cousins, twice removed. So what's a little competition between family?

The two presidential contenders also share a widely known common relative, Playboy founder Hugh Hefner, who is the ninth cousin of both men (the number nine is a coincidence). Twice removed from Mr. Bush, Hefner is a slightly closer relation to Kerry, only once removed.

"Well I feel closer to Senator Kerry," Hefner chuckled, over the phone from the Playboy Mansion in Los Angeles.

"You know I'm an 11th generation direct descendant of William Bradford, who came over on the Mayflower, a direct descendant of a puritan," Hefner continued proudly, finding no irony in the fact. "I suppose that it is not a big surprise but it is certainly unique to be a relation to both candidates."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/03/04/politics/main604163.shtml





http://msn.ancestry.com/landing/strange/bush4/tree.htm


Oh, and Kerry won. Al won also and should be put into office to serve his term fairly.

Or we could do a massive write-in campaign for a Gore/Kucinich ticket.

[diane in sf]

77. I don't believe Kerry won, I know he did.

[eridani]

78. I suspect it, but don't know it

If they won't audit or recount, and have now illegally destroyed the ballots, how can we ever know?

[peacetheonlyway]

79. 50/50

I feel he won the election by 70% or more based on personal work in Ohio and FLorida/Georgia,

but I also DON"T FEEL he deserved to be president and a tiny side of me is glad that spineless butthead lost.

not to have bush in office, but wishing someone else had helped Howard Dean find a PR Backbone.

[ClayZ]

80. Me and 11 of my family members.

[EFerrari]

82. I started interrogating it the day after the election and it wasn't until

very recently that my two sons, my brother and my mom understood how it was done. So, I guess that now makes five of us. :(

[Hippo_Tron]

81. Possibly, but I can't say for sure

Fortunately the Democrats control the state government in Ohio, now.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

83. He won it, but he did not secure it because he did not fight for it. nt

[blm]

105. The DNC did not secure 2000, 2002 or 2004. The candidate has no control of

the election process. The Dem party INFRASTRUCTURE has to be solid at every point where votes are cast and counted.

The RNC worked four years to steal that election - what did the DNC do - they oversaw the collapse of party infrastructure in every red and swing state across the country while they spent their money on DC centric schmoozing projects preparing for 2008.

Blaming Kerry really fixed that election process didn't it?

[marions ghost]

84. of course Kerry won

and we learned that there is no way to ensure that a US presidential election reflects the collective will of the people. Not currently anyway. And we learned that the media is completely complicit in this.

So we have learned some things we did need to know, in Kerry's "loss" as well as Gore's. We learned that our country has been hijacked from within, if we didn't know it before.

Accept it. The system is corrupt.

[DemBones DemBones]

85. I believe so. I think more than Ohio was stolen, too. nt

[LeftishBrit]

88. I think he should be president; I think that he may or may not have won the election...

And we'll never know.

I am sure Gore won in 2000.

[shadowknows69]

89. yep

too many shennaigans going on in Ohio.

[Vinca]

91. Absolutely he won. nt

[newportdadde]

92. I go back and forth on this one.

I think he probably won the electoral college, I think he had Ohio and the voters of Democratic leaning precints were screwed. However, I also think there is a good change he lost the popular vote, its true more turned out then ever to vote for him but a lot of crazies turned out to vote for Bush also in record numbers.

The biggest question in my mind will always be those exit polls. They had always proven very accurate in the past but for some reason they didn't work for this election, seems very strange.

[City Lights]

93. Me. eom

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

94. No doubt, and it wasn't Just Ohio. Remember the exit polls across the board. eom

[The Count]

98. Yup. It was clearly Florida as well - and a list of states Palast predicted

based on his investigation of corrupt election officials/voting machines. he made this predition the morning before election Day. he also predicted Kerry won't fight.(I was angry with him for this one - made up in 24h)

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

101. I cried when Kerry conceded. Not for him but for all of the people in Ohio who stood on those lines

throughout the night in the rain. For those who were told to go to the wrong polling places. For the counting of votes in secret because of a "terror" threat.
Then the zillion to one chance (poetic license) that the exit polls not just in Ohio but others states were so out of kilter. That Americans lost their strongest voice, their vote.
And yes, Greg knew it was going to happen and many of us feared it would happen and it did happen and another piece of our Democracy was slashed away.
With all of those irregularities, Kerry conceded and he betrayed every single disenfranchised voter with that concession. He was sitting with millions of dollars in his coffers and a huge team of lawyers waiting to be deployed and he conceded....

[HughBeaumont]

95. Why do you think I'll never call the Terrorist-In-Cheat "President"?

I didn't vote for Bewsh and he wasn't legally elected EITHER time. I don't call illegaly selected dictators "President". There are several texts that document how Ohio (and other states) was stolen despite exit polls favoring Kerry across the board.

[JerseygirlCT]

96. Me.

But then again, Al Gore also won an election and should have been running for re-election, too.

It gets complicated when you steal election after election, doesn't it?

[The Count]

97. Not that complicated. Gore fought for our votes, so I'd vote for him again.

Kerry/Edwards - not so much.

[JerseygirlCT]

122. Well, I think John Kerry would have made an excellent

president myself.

But let's face it, my houseplant would make a better president than the bozo we're stuck with now, so that in itself is a pretty low bar.

[MissDeeds]

99. Count me in

Kerry won, Gore won 4 years before. The American people lost both times, big time. It makes me sick to think how many lives would have been spared if we had had clean elections.

[Mad_Dem_X]

100. I do. n/t

[WritersBlock]

102. Me. n/t

[Stevepol]

103. No doubt about it. Kerry won. Get over it.

[SammyWinstonJack]

104. Me!

[Redbear]

106. I agree.

Our democracy is in danger.

[needledriver]

107. I do. nt

[lonestarnot]

108. Without a fucking doubt!

[canadianbeaver]

109. During the debates..I told my hubby that he was looking at the

new prez of the US...Kerry!!

Boy was I wrong....never expected the US to become what it has...not in my wildest dreams...what a shame.

Bush was handed the second term by way of Election Fraud...period...plain and simple.

[MrCoffee]

110. there's no doubt in my mind that Kerry won in 04 and should be president.

[DemGa]

111. Yep, count me in

Too much happened in Ohio that was never explained e.g., Warren county lock down, exit polling. And Judging by the media blackout, never happened.

[Fly by night]

112. I don't believe it. I know it. And if the Rethugs want to bring the war home to America, ...

... they should try to steal another one.

Lock and load. Rock and roll.

[blue cat]

113. I do

It broke my heart.

[mistertrickster]

114. Exit polls have always been right . . . UNTIL 2000 in Florida and 2004 in Ohio.

Coincidence?

Bullshit. Election fraud, pure and simple.

It's the easiest way to explain the statistical anomolies of people telling exit pollsters whom they voted for and the "official" bogus results.

[Greyhound]

119. But you're asking a people that cannot balance a checkbook to understand

and accept mathematic evidence.

Has there ever in history ever been a people more proud or their ignorance?

[Vidar]

115. Definitely.

[graywarrior]

116. He won, we lost.

I almost went on anti-depressants after that election.

[warren pease]

117. It's not a belief system, it's hard facts backed up with numbers...

The usual caging and phony felon blacklisting GOP tactics, the insufficient supply of voting machines in Dem precincts resulting in - in some cases -- 10-hour waits to vote, computerized vote flipping from Kerry to Bush (here's a link to statistical analysis of 2004 Ohio vote flipping by a guy with ads for Ron Paul and McCain against a backdrop of Nixon flashing the "V" sign: http://tinyurl.com/36z8od )

Palast predicted the outcome the day before and gave chapter and verse on how the GOP was going to do it here: (http://tinyurl.com/3b4rzv). And he followed up on 11/4 with this piece: http://tinyurl.com/3afvdm

Exit polls, which are used worldwide to ascertain the accuracy of actual vote tallies against valid statistical information, all predicted a Kerry victory in Ohio. (http://tinyurl.com/5cg4s)

The House Judiciary Committee, at that time still controlled by republicans, investigated and put out a report on the 2004 elections which cited numerous examples of outright vote theft and election fraud -- and strangely, all these incidents had the effect of shifting votes from Kerry to Bush, and none the other direction. http://tinyurl.com/34wggn

RFK Jr. demolished the official myth in his detailed 2006 article in Rolling Stone, which you can read here: http://tinyurl.com/ogrhq

Belief systems have an element of religiosity to them in that one is required to accept the unprovable on faith. Fortunately, GOPers are just clumsy enough to leave tracks whenever they commit crimes -- which is like saying whenever they breathe -- and smart people have followed those tracks and uncovered enough physical and circumstantial evidence to nail their fat asses to the wall. Nice compilation of 2004/Ohio election fraud issues here: http://tinyurl.com/2v2zx9

Amazingly, mass media has been silent on this issue. Hence, most people don't have a clue what actually happened in 2004 to inflict these blood-thirsty madmen on us for another four years -- maybe more if a few things fall into place just right.

Just another day at infotainment central, where OJ and Tiffany and Paris are the only stories worth covering and celebrity worship is the national religion. It used to be money, but now that nobody has any left, celebrities have stepped in to fill the gap and placate the good citizens of Dumbfuckistan.


wp

[Greyhound]

118. Both, I think he got the most votes, but his conduct after makes me think he

should never be President. Much like Al Gore before him, he is an excellent representative, investigator, and policy wonk without equal, but has shown me that he is no leader.

[yellerpup]

120. I do.

But I think Al Gore should still be president. He should be in his second term right now.

[sinkingfeeling]

121. I absolutely believe that John Kerry won the 2004 election.

[me b zola]

123. Me!

[fenriswolf]

124. ummm.....isnt that no longer a talking point

i thought it was obvious who won. kerry of course.

[truebrit71]

125. Me. No doubt whatsoever.

Which makes him laying down and dying all the more annoying...

[iamthebandfanman]

126. i do

even tho i dont care to much for him.


frankly it shoulda been Gore, winning his re-election ;)

[GeorgeGist]

127. He quit before ...

the 2004 election was over.

[babylonsister]

134. Bullshit. nt

[applegrove]

129. I believe if the exit polls had not falsly given him a huge win by 2PM, dems

would have kept voting and he may have won.

[Clintonista2]

130. I think he ran a horrible campaign. That's all I'm gonna say on this topic.

[NanceGreggs]

131. Never doubted it for a second. n/t

[bagimin]

132. No question about it.

[annabanana]

133. He did. No question. (Ohio knows)

REALLY! If you doubt it there's sound solid proof aplenty in the election reform forum
(http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=203)

[rateyes]

135. It's a fact. nt

[Kajsa]

136. I do.

No doubt about it.

[bbgrunt]

138. of course he did.

[bonito]

140. Of course

But where is OMC's opinion?

[Raster]

141. I know it as well as I know my own name. No one in their right mind believes ANYONE

stood in lines for 8, 10, 12, 14 hours to vote for bush*! And again I challenge anyone to stand up and openly disclose that they voted for Gore in 2000 and then switched their vote to bush* in 2004.

The problem with nailing the rethuglican electoral traitors--and make no mistake, that is exactly what they are--is that there wasn't one smoking gun. There were many. Throwing (S)Election 2004 was a concerted effort requiring every dirty trick in the arsenal.

And yes, like many others I am still dismayed by Kerry's apparent abandonment of his promise to fight the good fight and make sure EVERY vote was counted. And please, don't give me the crap the he has already addressed this issue. Perhaps he has half attempted to. I'd like him to address it now, today. Now that more and more evidence points to electoral fraud, I would like Kerry to answer some very pointed questions. And please, don't even bring up the "on advice from his attorneys" bullshit. It that the same attorneys of which there were supposedly thousands all across the country observing and ready to counter any electoral shenanigans?

And finally, don't put words in my mouth or in any mouth that asks these questions. Or put your hands on your virtual hips and have a hissyfit because you feel that I am disparaging John Kerry. I'm not. But I believe there is more to the story than we have been told. Yes, I believe John Kerry actually won the 2004 election. And I believe John Kerry believes that also. And that's what bothers me.

[2Design]

142. yes he won but was not willing to fight as in did in the 70's for anything n/t

[BlueCollar]

143. me... n/t

[Der Blaue Engel]

144. Absolutely n/t

[bleever]

147. She's right.

Still.

:thumbsup:

:hi:

[Der Blaue Engel]

148. Hey, bleev

:hi:

[bdamomma]

146. I believe he won, and so did Gore.