It is the *motivated* who vote...

[The Vinyl Ripper]

Hillary as nominee will galvanize the right to get out and vote like nothing else I can think of.

As for me and the leftists I know, Hillary is going to be another case of "hold my nose and vote", not motivating at all.

The Supreme Court? After Bush v Gore, who really gives a damn? We know where SCOTUS really stands.

[TwilightZone]

1. Yes, let's let the fear of the big, bad (R) choose our candidate.

Yes, let's pick a candidate based on how the Republicans will act!

Oh, no, we can't possibly nominate Hillary because that means Republicans will actually leave their homes and vote!

Because, we all know that nominating ANYONE other than Hillary will keep them all at home and unmotivated.

:sarcasm:

Ridiculous.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

3. Yes,

It's much better to pick a nominee that the corporations want..

[TwilightZone]

7. Wrong. It's better to make up your own mind, instead of letting (R) scare you.

n/t

[The Vinyl Ripper]

9. As I said..

And you completely ignored..

It is much better to let the corporations pick who I want to vote for.

[TwilightZone]

11. You can't make up your own mind?

The basis of your OP is that we shouldn't nominate Hillary because it'll motivate the Rs.

Who cares what they think? If you're going to let them do your thinking for you or scare you, or you're going to spend your life worrying about how they might react to our politicians, why bother?

Your OP says nothing about corporations, by the way. Nice deflection.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

15. "Hold my nose and vote"

Mostly due to Hillary's pro corporate stances.

And I *am* making up my own mind, I think Hillary will be a disaster for the Dems in '08.

[TwilightZone]

19. Yes, we know. The problem is that you have no evidence to back it up.

You (and many others) keep proclaiming that Hillary is going to be a disaster, yet all of the evidence points out not only that this is untrue, but that she's leading the head-to-head races against the top Republicans.

"Leading" is apparently "a disaster" now. It's a disaster because it's not what you want, apparently.

You keep talking about motivation. Have you paid any attention at all to the Republicans? They're hugely unmotivated, and nominating Hillary isn't going to create some miracle conversion in their ranks.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

22. I keep pointing out..

That I'm literally surrounded by Republicans..

I can't help but know what Republicans are thinking because there is basically no one else to talk to around here other than my family who are totally non political.

[TwilightZone]

28. I've been surrounded by Republicans my entire life. What they think is irrelevant.

I'm not going to vote for someone based on how the Republicans are going to react. Regardless of whom we nominate, our candidate is going to face serious opposition. That's politics, and that's life. The reaction is a non-issue.

Vote for whom you want, not for whom you think the resistance will be least.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

32. That's the whole point, I don't _want_ Hillary.

And a lot of people on the left share my opinion.

We will not be motivated to go and vote if Hillary is the nominee.

Not that it makes any difference where I live, Hillary will never get enough votes here to win.

Picking a candidate which deenergizes a lot of your own voters while simultaneously energizing your opponents to come and vote against them is not a very smart strategy.

[TwilightZone]

44. Again, you may not be motivated, but that doesn't mean others won't be.

There is simply no evidence that there is going to be some mass lethargy on the Democratic side if Hillary is nominated. Anti-Bush and anti-Republican sentiment is very high, and anger and frustration could very well result in Democratic turnout, just as it did in '06. A lot of people are going to vote, regardless of whom our candidate is.

Picking a candidate which deenergizes a lot of your own voters while simultaneously energizing your opponents to come and vote against them is not a very smart strategy.

Welcome to politics. If you want to see how this applies to every candidate we have, take a look around. There are supporters of every candidate whom I guarantee won't be excited about the nominee should their choice for the nomination lose the primary.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

47. Right..

I'm all alone in being disgusted with the Democrats inaction on what they were brought to power in '08 to do.

Pelosi sent the FISA bill up for a vote when she had no reason to do so.

A slap in the face to those who care about civil liberties.

Which describes a lot of us on the left.

[TwilightZone]

53. Oh, you're not alone.

Where we disagree, perhaps, is that I believe that any of our candidates, aggravating flaws and all, would be light-years better than Bush. I think there are a significant number of people who feel the same way. There are also a huge number of voters who simply don't pay attention to day-to-day Congressional activities, and those voters were already trending Democratic in '06. Not everyone pays the amount of attention that we do. Most people don't pay any attention, in fact. Those voters aren't going anywhere.

Where we also disagree is the likelihood of Hillary winning the presidency. You have yet to provide me with anything other than your own personal beliefs to indicate that Hillary can't win. A couple years ago, I might have been more inclined to agree, but the indications just don't bear that out. Her negatives are dropping, her head-to-head polls against Rudy, Mitt, McCain, et al, are pretty solid and her leads are increasing.

I just don't see the potential disaster you see, perhaps because I see a particularly unmotivated Republican party and a Democratic party still motivated for the same reasons they got out and voted in '06.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

57. I know full well that most people don't pay as much attention to poltics

As I do..

But I also know that people are paying at least _some_ attention to what is going on, why else would they have bothered to bring in the Democrats in '06?

Those who brought in the Dems are watching and waiting to see what happens.

Not much progress on ending the war will mean not much progress for Dems in the polling booth.

[TwilightZone]

60. The war isn't the only issue. It was fourth on the list in '06 in the exit polls.

People didn't vote Democratic in '06 simply because of the war. They voted Democratic because they'd had enough of Bush and the Republicans. Enough of the scandals, the corruption, the cronyism, the lying, etc. Those voters aren't about to jump back on the Republican bandwagon.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

61. Well, it's a great thing that impeachment

Is rolling along so nicely.

That will really impress all those new Democratic voters.

[Marr]

10. Isn't that why self-proclaimed "moderates" take the positions they take...?

They say we can't go any further left than a Hillary Clinton or an Obama, because any more and we'll alienate the Republicans. Excuse me- the "moderate" Republicans. Seems to me that DLC-types are very interested in what the big, bad Republican voters think when it might help them push a right-wing Democrat.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

13. Good point...

The Dem establishment is in screaming fear of Kucinich.

And I find it most illuminating that the Rep establishment feels the same way about Ron Paul, he terrifies them.

[TwilightZone]

24. Fear? You can't be serious.

No one fears his candidacy. He was marginal in '04, and, unfortunately, he's showing few signs of doing much better in '08.

Ron Paul is a nutcase. Everyone, Democrats and Republicans alike, should be terrified that he might actually get the nomination. Luckily, the chances of that are zero.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

26. Yes, fear...

The Dem establishment is terrified of Kucinich's ideas and positions.

He would upset the applecart and they know it.

I'm reading the conservative blogs too, there is a strong underlying sentiment for Paul there.

[Enrique]

2. Hillary will motivate a lot of females to vote

females that don't normally vote will turn out in large numbers.

Regarding the anti-Hillary factor, I've heard that so many times. The pundits have been saying it for years.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

5. I live in the deep South..

I'm surrounded by righties..

They *will* come out to vote against Hillary.

[Enrique]

14. I don't think they will

I've heard pundit after pundit declare this as truth, for years, but I don't believe it anymore.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

17. The hatred for Hillary is visceral..

The fundies hate Hillary as much as they hate Satan.

I know a *lot* of these people, I'm surrounded by them.

Seriously, you could but Lucifer himself up there as a candidate on the R side and a lot of them would vote for him over Hillary.

[Enrique]

27. the lack of rational basis weakens the emotion against her

their hatred is based on nothing, in reality. They've been told she's dangersously liberal, but she's not. She's one of the most conservative dem candidates. Maybe the most conservative.

They can't help but see that Bill Clinton was president for eight years and America didn't come to an end, despite their people telling them that Clinton was ruining the country.

They can't help but see that Nancy Pelosi has been Speaker for nine months and the nation is still in existence, despite what they were told about how dangerous she is.

They are unbelievably angry at Bush and the GOP. This will make them more open to questioning what their hated leaders and their RW radio lackeys have been telling them. Many of them will ask themselves, why exactly do I hate Hillary?

I don't think Hillary will win a deep south state (she might, who knows?), but I would be she does better than Kerry. Both because of the female factor, and the difference in the GOP voter's mood between now and 2004.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

31. The anger at bush

Will not keep them from hating Hillary.

It is irrational fears which are the most difficult to deal with.

Like people who are terrified of snakes or spiders, it is extremely difficult to get people to overcome irrational fears.

Republicans are arachnophobes and Hillary is the biggest freakin' tarantula they have ever seen.

[Enrique]

36. but Hillary is not a tarantula

she's a fairly conventional politician, there's nothing really for them to fear any more than any other politician. But they've been told she's pure evil and they have bought it without really thinking about it.

imagine an arachnophobe that was somehow convinced, by a sophisticated well-funded decades-long campaign, that a cow was actually a spider in disguise. Once they see that it's not really a spider, then their arachnophobia is neutralized. They won't necessarily go out and vote for the cow (though they might), but they won't be afraid of it.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

43. People by and large don't think rationally...

And particularly so when it comes to two topics.

Religion.

And politics.

Emotion is the watchword in both of those areas and emotion is what will drive the fundies to vote against Hillary.

If you think the swiftboating against Kerry was bad you ain't seen nothin' yet.

[Enrique]

48. what are they going to do, accuse her of murder?

Oh, wait, they already did that.

They've been swiftboating her for twenty years, the tactic loses effectiveness over time.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

50. All I can really say is..

Go and read the rightie blogs..

[Marr]

4. I agree with you completely. It's why the corporate media has been hard selling Clinton's candidacy

for so long. She's the only Dem that *could* lose, and she's a pro-corporate DLCer anyway. Hillary Clinton is a win/win for them.

[Enrique]

12. the corporate media hates Hillary

there's more bad information reported about Hillary than any other candidate.

[Marr]

16. That's just not true. They talk about her all the time.

And it's *not* hit pieces. She gets tons of free coverage from the big media outlets, and they've been talking about her as if she was the assumed nominee long before anyone started asking the voters. The other candidates are marginalized in comparison to Clinton.

She's the corporate media's candidate.

[Enrique]

21. the media repeats the anti-Hillary myths constantly

all these things you hear about her on DU? They come straight from the corporate media.

-- Hillary will motivate republicans to vote
-- Hillary is unelectable
-- Hillary's negatives are too high
-- Hillary is too ambitious
-- Hillary is shrill
-- Hillary doesn't have Bill's charm

I would bet that each of these memes were recited this past weekend alone by one pundit or another.

[porphyrian]

25. There's no such thing as bad publicity for celebrities. The key is that they keep talking about her.

We haven't even had a primary yet, and they've practically chosen Senator Clinton as our nominee. It doesn't matter that what they're saying is negative, they are creating the illusion that she is the most important candidate to discuss.

[Enrique]

33. she's one of the most famous politicians in the world

the fact that she gets a lot of coverage is not an indication of favoritism, it's what you would expect.

The fact that she is called the candidate to beat is because of the horserace nature of political reporting. In fact, Hillary has huge leads in most polls. The press reports the campaign this way. It's not good, but it's not because they prefer Hillary.

Imagine asking the political press, Ok, press, so you think Hillary is going to win. What do you think of this? Is it a good thing? Do you like Hillary?

From their reporting, the answer is clearly no, they don't like her just like they didn't like Al Gore. And they don't think we should like her either.

[porphyrian]

34. That's just bullshit. Can you even feel the hook in your mouth? - n/t

[Enrique]

37. rude

very rude. :-(

[porphyrian]

39. If you don't want the blunt end, don't try to feed me bullshit. - n/t

[Enrique]

41. you're on ignore

[porphyrian]

42. Good for you. Truth might hurt your fragile bullshit paradigm. - n/t

[onenote]

6. the scotus

two of the four justices who dissented were Bill Clinton appointees; none of those in the majority were. So expalin to me why we shouldn't give a damn?

[TwilightZone]

8. Apparently, we'd rather that the Republicans replace Stevens when he retires or dies.

How that helps, I'm not sure.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

20. I'm thinking that Roe v Wade might get overturned..

In which case I suspect a lot of Americans will start paying more attention to politics.

At least a lot of women will anyway.

Not to mention it will take a lot of wind out of the right winger's sails. They've been running against Roe v Wade for so long they are like a dog chasing a car, they won't have a clue what to do with it when they finally get the object of their desire.

I'm strongly pro choice, but I'm pro a lot of other things that most Democrats don't seem to give a damn about.

Why should I allow "choice" to effect my vote more than any of the other issues I'm concerned about?

[TwilightZone]

29. Even the Republicans probably aren't that stupid.

Overturning Roe v. Wade would be political suicide, which is why I doubt that it will happen. If so, we can pretty much count on winning the presidency and controlling Congress for another couple of decades.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

38. You would think that a lot of the stunts the right has pulled

Would be "political suicide".

And yet they still have a substantial base.

[TwilightZone]

46. Their base is much less substantial that it was before.

If "Generic Republican" is only pulling 32% in the polls, I doubt that their base is much higher than that.

Besides, they can't get rid of Roe v. Wade - it's too much of a rallying cry for their base. It's one of the few things they have left to froth them up.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

49. We shall see...

Put "generic republican" up against "Hillary Rodham Clinton" and I suspect the numbers would change.

Nothing we say or do here is going to influence things one way or the other but I do find these subjects interesting to talk about.

[TwilightZone]

56. Considering that she's doing fine against specific R's, I doubt "generic R" would do better.

A recent poll shows her up 7% on Rudy, 9% on Fred, and double digits on the others, and the leads are trending upwards.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

58. When she inevitably moves to the right..

After she gets the nomination, then things will change.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

18. I guess we'll find out for sure because it looks like Hillary is on a runaway train...

She's going to be our nominee whether we all like it or not...

[The Vinyl Ripper]

23. I agree.. n/t

[rateyes]

30. I disagree with that statement, for the most part...

I'm NOT a fan of Hillary Clinton, and will not support her in the primaries. But, in the general election, if she is the candidate....whether or not Republicans will be motivated to vote against her will depend on who their nominee is.

There will by a great many of the religious fundy right who will stay home rather than pull a lever for someone who does not kowtow to their fundy issues.

However, I do think that you have a point to a degree where such motivation might mean a percentage point...and, if it's close, that could be a deciding factor.

Regardless, I think we need to nominate the best person for the job. That's why I'm still holding out hope for an Al Gore run. Absent that, my vote will go to Dennis Kucinich.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

35. In '08

The fundies will possibly be in the same position as the rest of us.

Having to vote _against_ the greater of two evils.

And the fundies think Hillary is evil incarnate.

The only Repub I can think of who might draw the same sort of anti vote from the left is Rudy G.

[rateyes]

40. I think fundy MEN think that way...

but, not women. That's the feel I get from talking to fundies about this. I think that a lot of conservative women like HRC. I don't know why. But, I think that's true.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

45. That may be..

But fundie women do as their men tell them to do.

If they didn't, they wouldn't be fundies.

[rateyes]

55. I think fundy women...

talk like they're more submissive than they really are. After all, their husbands can't go in the booth with them.

[Enrique]

54. the evangelicals have already made other plans for election day

they're going to do whatever evangelicals normally do on Tuesdays.

[Vinca]

51. It will be very, very, very hard for me to vote for Hillary given

her "universal" healthcare plan (so-called). I'm so sick of these people. Why can't they figure it out that Kucinich's plan is the best?
:mad:

[The Vinyl Ripper]

52. Because they are looking at it through the corporate lens..

Hillary's plan = good for corporations.

Dennis' plan = bad for corporations.

[cali]

59. You. Are. Wrong.

Democrats will be every bit as motivated as repukes next year, no matter who the candidate. And as for the repukes being motivated out of Hillary hate, negative motivation is not enough.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

62. I consider myself to be a Democrat..

And if Hillary is the nominee I won't be motivated.

I guess I'm just unique though..

[Starbucks Anarchist]

63. Not motivated and won't vote?

Or not motivated and will?

[The Vinyl Ripper]

65. It really depends...

What's the weather going to be election day?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

66. Seriously, what's your answer?

[The Vinyl Ripper]

67. I already gave it..

What's the weather on election day?

Where I live it really doesn't matter who I vote for anyway, I'm in a very red area of a very red state, there is no way in hell a Democrat is going to win here.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

68. *Every* vote counts.

I live in one of the bluest cities in America, and I always vote.

[cali]

64. You're not unique, but I question whether you're

statistically relevant.

[Macchendra]

69. No amount of nose holding could get past the stink

Good ol' clusterbomb hillary. A vote for her is a vote for War against Iran.