Breaking!Two of Soldiers who Criticised War in NYT OP ED appear to have Died!

[KoKo]

Breaking: Two Of Soldiers Who Penned Times Op-Ed Criticizing War Appear To Have Died

Staff Sergeant Yance Gray and Sergeant Omar Mora are both reported dead. In their op-ed, the soldiers wrote that despite their grave misgivings about the war strategy, "as committed soldiers, we will see this mission through."
# The War as We Saw It

Two Of Soldiers Who Penned Times Op-Ed Criticizing War Appear To Have Died
September 12, 2007 -- 8:06 AM EST // //
It appears that two of the soldiers who helped co-write a riveting New York Times Op-ed last month criticizing U.S. war strategy in Iraq have now died.

The two soldiers are Staff Sergeant Yance Gray and Sergeant Omar Mora. Those are the names of two of seven soldiers who co-wrote the Op-ed, which described the political debate in Washington as "surreal," opining that "to believe that Americans, with an occupying force that long ago outlived its reluctant welcome, can win over a recalcitrant local population and win this counterinsurgency is far-fetched."

Now a local Texas station is reporting that Mora was killed Monday in a vehicle rollover accident that killed seven troops.

Meanwhile, the Associated Press reports that Gray died in similar fashion.

I've got a call into the Pentagon press office seeking confirmation that these two are the same soldiers that wrote the Op-ed. Over at Editor and Publisher, Greg Mitchell says that they are the same, as does a diarist over at Daily Kos.

Back when the soldiers' courageous Op-ed appeared, it received scant media attention -- far less, for instance, than an Op-ed by Michael O'Hanlon and Kenneth Pollack arguing that the surge is working.

more at......

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/horsesmouth/2007/09/two_of_soldiers.php

[wicket]

1. Oh god

:cry: :cry: :cry:

Thoughts and prayers for their families.

[Dark]

37. Seconded.

:cry:

[rateyes]

2. kicking

and recommending

:kick:

Thank you Bush and everyone else who has had the power to bring our troops home but don't do it. Thanks, for nothing.

[leftchick]

3. the rollover with the seven soldiers sounded horrible

I heard it reported on NPR yesterday. They said the vehicle was returning to base after an operation and held detainees as well as soldiers. 7 Soldiers dies, 11 were wounded and 2 detainees died as the truck veered off a bridge and went 30 feet down to pavement below.

If that wasn't horrible enough my mind went to who was driving and if it was intentional. In this god awful situation you never know.

:(

[Botany]

4. 2 vehicle rollovers?

Pat Tillman shot in the head @ less than 10 yds

Gov Don Siegelman of Alabama in jail

Judy Miller planting false stories

2 stolen presidential elections

NSA spying

V. Plame outing

Paul Wellstone's plane

Ray Lemme

Got fascism yet?

[Netbeavis]

7. HummVee, like other jumbo SUV's are top heavy

and roll-over are quite frequent, especially when driven at high speeds.


To suggest anything else otherwise before the full facts are released is just chasing UFO's.

[Botany]

11. thanx

[Netbeavis]

14. lol that's funny.

be well.

[Junkdrawer]

13. Asking Questions = Conspiracy theorist...

Same old same old...

[subsuelo]

134. we must never tolerate them

our dear leader said so

[mopinko]

15. humvees roll over? i thought that was the centerpiece of

their design. that their wide low stance made them all but impossible to roll? i'm not a big car nut, so i could be wrong. i thought that was the whole point.

[gatorboy]

23. ...

http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,117708,00.html

[Pawel K]

40. I had a buddy in Iraq that had 2 friends die and he was badly injured in a rollover accident

They are prone to these types of rollovers.

[Virginia Dare]

70. It's a common danger in Iraq..

that is not in question. However, I have serious questions about the circumstances surrounding this "accident". Accidents can easily be manufactured.

[Pawel K]

81. Yes they can. But saying it wasn't an accident without any proof needs to stop

its making this place look bad for christ sake.

[Virginia Dare]

86. What has this administration or the Pentagon done to deserve credibility?

I don't think it makes anyone here look bad to doubt what the Pentagon or the White House tells us. They've been caught out in too many lies.

[Pawel K]

91. A lot of people lie. It doesn't mean every time someone critical of those liars dies

that liar is a murderer.

Look at this as an outsider. Every time someone that said anything bad about Bush dies Bush is automatically blamed. Why can't some of you simply accept that life is shitty and people, all people, will die. Some sooner than others.

That's fine that you believe Bush would kill someone for writing something bad about his war of choice, for people like me it takes a little more evidance than your gut feeling. We all despise Bush around here, but posting shit like that makes all of us look bad so I wish people would think a little more next time they claim Bush murdered someone, or that Bush bombed the towers, that Bush is ready to set off a nuke in our own country, that Bush is going to take total control of the government, etc... Another site I know did shit like this too when Clinton was around, those theories were just as idiotic and illogical as the ones you see here about Bush.

[Virginia Dare]

94. Fine, chalk it up as another one of those happy coincidences that..

seems to surround the Bush administration. Of course, it may very well be just that. 9/11/01 was just the luckiest fucking day of Bush's life. There, does that make it all better?

[KneelBeforeZod]

105. Amen!

Hear, Hear, brother!

I am a fairly recent addition to DU (as you can see) ... and I often think about how some of the stuff we say this website makes us appear to a lurker, a non-active liberal, a moderate, or even a true-blue liberal, like myself, that thinks conservatism is wrong and George W. Bush is a terrible President, but stops FAR short of accusing the Bush Administration of murder, treason, detonating the WTC, etc.

George W. Bush is wrong about a great many things - he is a lousy President, and the world would've been better off if he'd stayed in Texas ... but he is NOT Satan Incarnate. He wasn't complicit in 9-11, he isn't responsible for every terrorist act throughout the globe, and he isn't murdering critics.

Sometimes this site reminds me of FReeperville during the Clinton scandals ... where they accused Bill Clinton of covering up terrorism (or even shooting down) TWA Flight 800, where the attempt at hitting bin Laden in Sudan was hailed as a "Wag the Dog" distraction from Lewinsky, and where Bill and Hillary Clinton murdered Vince Foster.

The more things change ... the more they stay the same.

I think this stuff hurts our cause more than it helps - just like the right-wing attacks on Clinton (including Impeachment) hurt Republicans in the eyes of the average American.

Z

[liberaldemocrat7]

107. Excuse me but Bu$h provoked the 9-11 attacks. Bu$h angered the Taliban

into striking us first.

[KneelBeforeZod]

116. Huh?

>> Excuse me but Bu$h provoked the 9-11 attacks. Bu$h angered the Taliban into striking us first.

Far be it from me to defend George Bush ... but, how so?

First - planning for the 9-11 attacks began LONG BEFORE the Supreme Court gave Bush the Presidency. And, the attacks would have been identical if Al Gore had been in office (as he should've been).

Prior to 9-11, the Bush Administration was entirely uninvolved in terrorism and foreign affairs ... to the point of incompetence. He was so focused on tax cuts for the rich, "no child left behind", "faith based initiatives", etc. ... that he completely ignored foreign policy.

I fail to see how 9-11 was provoked by the Bush Administration.

Is it not even remotely possible that 9-11 was, as it appears, an abhorrent unprovoked attack on American civilian targets by foreign terrorists? However, incompetently the Bush Administration is handling it - international terrorism is real, and existed long before the Bush Administration took office.

The horrors of the Administration aside, there are villainous men in this world who are unconnected with the Bush Administration.

Z

[Virginia Dare]

122. Just out of curiosity, what's your opinion on the anthrax attacks?

and do you think this also would have happened exactly as it did under a Gore administration?

[KneelBeforeZod]

125. Anthrax ...

I'm not sure about the anthrax attacks. I don't know who masterminded them, who carried them out ... I just don't know.

I've seen nothing to convince me that they were connected with the 9-11 Terrorist attacks, with bin Laden, or even with international terrorism at all ... though I've also seen nothing that has convinced me they're connected to the Bush Administration.

As for whether they'd have happened in a Gore Administration ... I don't know. Possibly.

Z

[Virginia Dare]

154. You don't know any of that because there's never been a real investigation..

Hmmm, I wonder why that is?

[Pawel K]

157. Why hasn't there been an investigation into Bush's lies in the lead up to war

I guess that's Bush's master plan too. it can't possibly be that the people we supported are cowards politically.

[Virginia Dare]

158. I fail to see what one has to do with the other..

I'm talking about a criminal investigation, not a political one. We've had neither.

[Pawel K]

160. Lying to war is a political and not a criminal investigation?

You can't be serious.

[Virginia Dare]

161. How is lying a crime?

unless you do it under oath?

[Pawel K]

164. He did do it under oath

read his letter to congress in the lead up to war. (lying to congress is illegal, just like spying on americans without a warrent is, just like torture is, just like breaking international treaties is).

But this discussion is getting dumber and dumber with each reply. I can't change what you believe and I certainly can't prove to you Bush didn't do this, just like I can't prove to you that we actually landed on the moon, just like I can't prove Bush wasn't responsible for 9/11, and just like I can't prove to you little green man are up in the sky watching our every move. By the same token you can't prove any of this is true. All I could do was plead with you to give a little more thought in to what you post, if I didn't suceed then oh well, to each his own. See you around, I'm sure we'll be having this discussion again the next time somebody that didn't like Bush dies. :hi:

[Virginia Dare]

167. Bush has never been under oath before Congress...

if I'm wrong about that, please provide the link and I will extend to you the appropriate mea culpas. I'm not asking you to prove anything to me, all I'm saying is that we are justified in thinking the worst of this administration, as proof by your laundry list above of what they've done and what they're capable of. Give that some thought.

[Pawel K]

168. I was under the assumption that the letter is considered to be under oath

if I am wrong my apologies. But my point still stands, he lied to congress which is a crime. Add all the other stuff I posted and there should be plenty of investigations in to this, but there isn't because the people we worked so hard to put in power don't really give a shit about anything but their own political futures, and for some reason they believe not hurting Bush's feelings is the way to protect that.

And I gave this plenty of thought which I layed out in this discussion. These humvee accidents happen on a daily basis, as I said I had a friend whom I worked with had 2 friends die that way and he was badly injured and is extremely lucky to be alive. Shit happens in these types of unwinnable wars and we can both agree that Bush is responsible, just not in the way you think he is. I will leave that there.

[bvar22]

138. Oh boy, where to start?

Please Google "Hart-Rudman Commission".
A Democratic president would have invariably implemented at least some of these recommendations.
Some of the recommendations in the Hart Rudman Commission WOULD HAVE prevented the hikacking of the airliners on 9-11.

George Bush trashcanned the commission's report. NONE of the recommendations were implemented.
If Bush* didn't directly cause 9-11, it CAN be argued that he bears some responsibility.


Go to this link for Bush/Unocal involvement with the Taliban/Afghanistan prior to 9-11.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Afghanistan+pipeline&btnG=Google+Search

[Virginia Dare]

153. george bush August 6, 2001, and I quote...

"All right, you’ve covered your ass now.” It's nothing short of delusional to think that 9/11 would have occurred under a Gore administration.

[BeHereNow]

147. Can you PROVE he is not Satan?

By my checklist, based in scripture- he most surely is
associated.
BHN

[trusty elf]

151. Beelzeshrub

[BeHereNow]

173. Excellent! Welcome to DU...

Thanks for the laugh.
I needed that!
BHN:hi: :thumbsup:

[Pawel K]

163. Welcome to DU

:hi:

Don't mind all these theories. All the people behind them are good people that mean well, I think they are just so fucking upset at everything that they can't take it anymore so they buy in to this. But for the few of these posts that do pop up there are a 100 others that provide factual information you will have a hard time finding anywhere else. Just becareful, before you know it you will be checking this place 30 times a day for new information. So stick around, I promise you that you won't be disappointed.

[KneelBeforeZod]

170. Thanks ...

Its good to see a few voices of reason around here occasionally.

The factual information I've seen on these forums is unparalleled ... DU is a fantastic news-gather and commentary service.

Some of the inevitable conspiracy theories can be hair-brained ... but its no doubt a result of frustration with 8-years of conservative rule.

I do worry that we occasionally go off the deep-end with some of this stuff ... and that such flights of fancy may drive away middle-American voters. But, to the extent that's not the case, its all harmless theorizing anyway.

Thanks for the welcome, and I look forward to seeing you around.

Z

[FREEWILL56]

114. Blame may be the wrong word.

Suspect in possible wrong doing, yes. Even the pretzeldent himself said not too long ago that he doesn't remember ever doing anything wrong. Let us count them for I don't ever remember him doing things right.

[whathappened]

135. bs

get your head out of your ass there who ever you are , bush is responseable , these men and women should be home not in sand city

[stillcool]

136. Because everything that ...

comes out of any government agency is a lie? I don't know how in this day and age, anyone can not be a conspiracy theorist... and I don't know how anyone concerned can be an 'outsider'. This isn't "Bush" this is our government.

[melody]

149. The pool of soldiers who've complained is much smaller

Statistically, there should have been very few who've died. Now we have five cases, including these two, that have been brought
to light. I find that disturbing, particularly considering Bush's background.

Pawel, you are speaking with your "gut feeling" when you dismiss without argument an assertion that all such theories are "idiotic and illogical". You haven't even seen their theories yet.

Powerful people murder each other all the time. It happens constantly in third world countries. There was no real evidence regarding the ridiculous Vince Foster assertions, even so. But Bush's father was known as the Ice Pick for how cold-blooded he was toward his enemies. These people are sociopaths. Sociopaths kill. Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, Charlie Manson, and maybe even political ones like George Bush.

[Pawel K]

159. You are asking me to prove a negative

you should know better than that.

Do I have evidance that Bush DIDN'T kill these soldiers? Of course not. But I also don't have any evidance that Jesus was magical, that doesn't automatically mean he was. That's the problem with all the theories. They speak from the gut based on disgust of this administration. That disgust is certainly warranted, but it doesn't mean every time someone dies, every time a terrorist does something, every time I fart, Bush is responsible for it. I am not speaking from my gut when I say these theories are illogical and idiotic, I am simply stating a fact. These theories are no better than what the freepers were doing in the Clinton years. So can I please plead with you people not to throw every single one of these half baked theories on the greatest page as soon as they pop up? You all certainly have the right to post this shit as you please, that's whats so wonderful about this place. But when so many members here recommend these ideas it makes it seem like most of the community endorses those ideas which is not the case.

Bush does scare the shit out of me, but not for the same reasons he scares you. People die all the time, get used to it. Blaming Bush every single time is idiotic and illogical.

[Virginia Dare]

165. I have to go back to the Jessica Lynch and Pat Tillman stories..

I think that is where people's gut feelings come from. The wool has been pulled over our eyes too many times. People have a hard time believing these stories at face value anymore. I'm not ready to get used to the unnecessary deaths in Iraq, I'm sorry if you think that's illogical. And I will blame Bush for every single one of them, accidental or not.

[melody]

166. You're framing the question as an either/or

I'm not asking you to prove or disprove anything. I'm merely stating there is room for a multi-model approach --
room for doubt, in other words. You haven't studied the Bush family as others have, so your choosing to dismiss
something as "idiotic" that you haven't studied is an emotional reaction, not one based on logic.

I'm not asking you to believe or disbelieve -- I don't believe anything. But I've seen the evidence of the Bush
family's behavior through generations. His grandfather was Hitler's banker. This family isn't know for its
ethical rigor.

[Pawel K]

169. I studied plenty about it

Yes, I know about the hitler connection. Yes, I know the saudi connection. So does everyone else. But greed and immorallity doesn't amount to murder every single time someone that doesn't like Bush dies. You can say you don't actually believe that Bush killed these people, yet you seem to defend the idea that he did which in my opinion is the same thing. I am willing to bet you that if I posted some half baked theory like this the next time a critic of Bush dies, no matter what the cause of death is, I will get a bunch of people here to jump on the bandwagon and agree with me. That reflects a very negative image on to us and I wish it would stop. If Gore was in office when this happened this same type of bullshit would be pointed at him from freepers, at least in respect to 9/11 since the Iraq war would not have happened. I don't know why people do this, maybe they are bored and need to find a new hobby.

[melody]

172. Again, you're proposing belief over agnosticism

It's the either/or thing -- in essence you're saying "you're suggesting it might be true so it's the same as your saying it is!" which is manifestly untrue. It's just an extremist, fundamentalist reaction to force people to one extreme or another.

You and I don't know. Your assertion is he absolutely doesn't kill anyone. I think it's entirely possible, though not certain, he kills people. Which is the more rational option?

[Pawel K]

175. The more rational option is not accusing people of murder with no evidance to back it up

our legal system has been doing this to poor blacks for years, you guys should know better. If you are going to accuse someone of murder you have to have something to back it up, your gut doesn't cut it.

Some of you don't seem to understand that there are people out there with different political views than you. Sure, they are totally wrong but it doesn't mean they are the spawn of satan. Bush is a coked out frat boy that should have never even ran for public office. That's what we know about him. But again, when you say he murdered someone with no evidance to back it up you are asking people that disagree with you to prove a negative when the burder of proof is on you, again, you should know better than that.

[melody]

176. That's an emotional reaction, not a rational one

The legal system has to presume innocence -- people do not, especially when there is plentiful evidence that the Bush family and their ilk murders people. If you don't want to believe there is evidence, go right ahead and believe it. It's not based on fact, but feelings.

[John Gauger]

103. There's a difference between

doubting them and accusing them of conspiracy to commit murder without any evidence.

[TheWraith]

72. On a stable road, maybe. At speed, or over debris, not even close.

And besides, this wasn't a humvee accident that's being talked about. The vehicle contained at least 18 soldiers and two prisoners. It had to have been a truck of some kind.

[Xithras]

112. Actually, the new armored Humvees are very unstable.

They carry far more weight than the frames and suspension were designed to handle, and are very prone to spinouts and rollovers now. If that weren't bad enough, the roof of the Hummer wasn't designed to hold any huge amount of weight, so if the flip ends with the Hummer upside down, the entire upper cabin can collapse and crush everyone inside.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. The soldiers in the unarmored Hummers have to worry about getting blown up, and the soldiers in the armored Hummers have to worry about being crushed if they roll.

[RaleighNCDUer]

139. Maybe with the original design, but I expect that once it's been

armored up on the sides and roof it kind of changes the dynamics.

[trusty elf]

150. sorry to be frivolous and irreverent here...

but when I see "wide low stance" and 'hummer" my mind starts to wander.

[screembloodymurder]

17. Bullshit !

I know the man responsible for design of the HumVee suspension system. It's not top heavy. Someone better check the other names and see who they were and if they really existed.

[IronLionZion]

24. The situation is different when there are roadside bombs

and rough terrain. Running over stuff can roll a humvee. Design can only help so much. Sure they're not top-heavy, but they do roll over.

[liam_laddie]

33. Added weight of "uparmored" HMMMV

As gatorboy writes downthread, the weight of the various armoring parts does make them much less stable than as originally designed. For instance, the Stryker anti-RPG cage of steel pipe added either 5000 lbs. or five tons of "top-heaviness" to its already overweight design. They're also too wide and tall for effective urban warfare or to fit in a C-130.

The Humvee's original design appears to be a decent vehicle for transport of people and supplies, but it was never intended to be a light armored vehicle. They had to install new springs and tires to handle the additional weight, plus the engine is overstressed. Typical FUBAR...

[malmapus]

45. Having rolled a HumVee, I call bullshit to your bullshit

They can roll.

[conscious evolution]

25. Twenty people in a Hummvee?

[MyNameGoesHere]

32. uh yeah

these ain't the ones you see running down the road. they are wide and squat. i have driven them in the middle east and they are HARD to rollover. You damn near have to have that in mind. Saying they are prone to rollover i don't buy. However any vehicle that you whip the steering wheel at high speeds could rollover.

[phatkatt]

34. No, Hummers are top heavy.

If you've ever seen a real HummVee, you can see they are very different vehicles than the Hummer that your neighbor with sexual inadequacy issues owns.

[redqueen]

49. HummVees are top-heavy?

[kenfrequed]

58. uhm

Actually Hum-Vees are not like the Civilian model, and even the armored variety are not that top heavy. They are wide heavy vehicles not prone to rolling over, unless assisted by some kind of vehicle trap or explosive device.

Let us not make fictional excuses before all the facts are in.

[Virginia Dare]

69. You'd probably be driving real fast if somebody was chasing

you and shooting at you too, wouldn't you?...:eyes:

[IsItJustMe]

108. Everybody needs a nay sayer.

[RaleighNCDUer]

137. Agree. If they were targetted, there would not have been so many

others caught up as collateral damage. In fact, it would be contrary to getting the message across.

[iaviate1]

140. So are you a coincidence theorist? n/t

[moodforaday]

100. One more for you

August 27, 2007:

Witnesses In Army Trial Killed In Crash

Several U.S. Army soldiers killed in a helicopter crash in Iraq last week were to be witnesses in the homicide trial of their former superior.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2967693

(Without these soldiers testimony, the prosecution has no case.)

What are the odds?

[Netbeavis]

5. observing a moment of silence

DAMNIT!!!

[Maggie_May]

6. My heart goes out to the family

This is why we need to stop funding this war NOW! NO MORE

[cali]

8. Posted here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1790004&mesg_id=1790004

I'd hoped to see this become a memorial thread for these two extraordinary young men. There are already some lovely quotes.

[TechBear_Seattle]

9. It was only a matter of time

The only question is: Am I being too cynical or not cynical enough?

[Nikki Stone1]

50. I'm more cynical that you are--and I don't think either of us is being cynical enough

It's the Sopranos administration.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

73. The "Sopranos administration"/Mafia White House...

...they spread fear world wide while selling weapons on the side.

:banghead:

[Virginia Dare]

71. No harm in thinking critically about the "official story" here...

when it comes to this bunch, suspicians are aroused, and it's usually with justifiable cause. Given the track record of this administration, I put NOTHING past them.

[TwilightGardener]

10. I can't believe they were brought up at the Senate hearings yesterday, and

no one knew yet that two were already dead. How absolutely awful. They died knowing their mission wasn't worthwhile, but they saw it through as far as they could. God bless them.

[gatorboy]

12. There's been numerous rollovers.

Since the campaign in Iraq began, at least 116 Soldiers have been killed and at least 132 injured in Humvee rollover accidents. (And those are 2006 statitics).

[screembloodymurder]

18. They roll over when a bomb goes off under the vehicle

or when in steep terrain, but they are not unstable.

[gatorboy]

21. Unfortunately, the added armor is also a culprit in rollovers.

[frogcycle]

57. they drive "defensively" - meaning like crazies

as they run the gauntlet. There have been several accidents. In one a rollover killed the turret gunner. In another the humvee went into a drainage ditch. These are not listed as "hostile" fatalities, although the accident is caused by evasive maneuvers to avoid hostile action.


But this particular accident was a truck carrying some 20 82nd Airborne that ran off a bridge.

I will not be surprised to learn that other of the writers were on the truck.

[peacetalksforall]

16. The trolls will be here soon to 'tone it down' or get into outright ridicule

of everything and everyone who says anything conspiratorial.

[KittyWampus]

27. And the fools are apparently already here claiming conspiracy and labeling anyone

a troll who bothers to point out there's too many rollover incidents in Iraq already.

[peacetalksforall]

29. I know nothing about rollovers and I'm not saying there is anything

intentional - I'm just saying that their will be troll control on duty soon.

I hope you are not calling me a fool.

[TheWraith]

75. Pardon those of us who maintain a connection to reality.

God forbid we shouldn't all join in on the declaration that every untoward event in the world was personally plotted by Bush and Cheney, from 9/11 to a death in a war zone.

[peacetalksforall]

80. Two of seven who shared their thoughts - that means many people

are dying by the math of it. Or it was synchronicity or fate or a good news story. Could be any of those.

[Virginia Dare]

88. And what's the real harm in using this board to speculate on the facts?

Bush and Cheney don't deserve a pass on credibility, they lost that long ago.

[TheWraith]

99. One, when people start talking about Cheney ordering hits on people who complain about the war

It makes all of us, and by extension anti-war people, look crazy.

Second, it's disrespectful to the other guys who died or were injured, to suggest that they don't exist and were just made up.

Third, it's patently obvious paranoia and fearmongering, and isn't even close to the level of actual fact. It's unrestrained speculation that somebody just made up, and not even remotely likely.

[redqueen]

101. Not even remotely likely?

I don't know about that.

[IsItJustMe]

109. You seem like you have a real axe to grind on this one bud.

[TheWraith]

174. I get peeved about this sort of thing, same as with 9/11 conspiracy theories.

I'm normally pretty annoyed by people acting stupid, but this sort of thing is an order of magnitude worse. It's one thing to speculate about murder when there's evidence of it, like in the Tillman case. Just making up facts to fit a paranoid world-view is wholly inappropriate for a group of people who claim the title of "the reality based community." It's freeperish behavior, like claiming the WMDs were smuggled to Syria.

[John Gauger]

104. No one here is saying that Bush or Cheney

couldn't have done it. We all know that they willing to put lives in danger to get their way (starting a war, outing Plame.) The problem is not their credibility. The problem is that there is no evidence that they did anything untoward. And one doesn't learn the facts by speculating. One gleans the facts by empirical observation.

[Virginia Dare]

121. I don't think that doubting the official story equates to blaming Bush and Cheney..

personally, I did no such thing. The problem is that we will likely never be privy to the empirical facts of this matter.

[John Gauger]

124. What then are you suggesting?

And what part of the official story seems fishy to you?

[Virginia Dare]

155. I'm suggesting it may not have been an "accident"...

did the Jessica Lynch or Pat Tillman stories sound fishy to you in the beginning? I swallowed both of those stories whole at the outset. I guess I'm a little gun shy now.

[John Gauger]

171. It's certainly possible.

I try to keep an open mind, but I just thought you were jumping to conclusions. I apologize.

[disndat]

130. I agree

After all the gut wrenching things Cheney & com. have perpetrated in their horrible war, if you are not a conspiracy theorist you are not living in the same planet.

[femrap]

19. K & R

The evil of this regime knows no limits. And Impeachment is still off the table....this is pathetically disgusting.

The writers of that op-ed against the war are true heroes.

Damn it.

[mod mom]

20. Hagel speaks of their op-ed piece yesterday during the hearing-video:

http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=3586322

[FourScore]

22. NOOOO! This is so tragic! n/t

[in_cog_ni_to]

26. May I suggest the other 5 who co-wrote the op-ed...watch their backs?

:scared: Honestly. What are the odds that those 2 died within hours/days of each other? Come on. The other 7 killed were just collateral damage.

Pat Tillman?

[Dudley_DUright]

28. Staff Sgt. Jeremy Murphy was shot in the head before the op-ed

even appeared in the NYTimes.

"While they were writing the piece, one of them, Staff Sergeant Jeremy Murphy, an Army Ranger and reconnaissance team leader, was shot in the head. It looks like he will recover."

http://news.aol.com/newsbloggers/2007/09/12/two-of-the-us-soldiers-who-wrote-nyt-op-ed-questioning-the-war-h/

[superkia]

31. Did they both die in rollovers or were they completely seperate situations?

[in_cog_ni_to]

38. They both died in 2 seperate rollovers. n/t

[renate]

36. well, as screembloodymurder pointed out above...

... it would be interesting to find out whether the other seven really existed. I hope somebody with access to those records does a little digging.

(I may be naive but I have a hard time believing that anybody would order the deaths of seven additional innocent soldiers die just to get revenge on writers of an opinion piece. I don't have a hard time believing they'd let Iraqis die in that accident, but seven US soldiers seems like a high price to pay just to get back at people whose moment in the sun was already over as far as the media were concerned.)

[in_cog_ni_to]

44. You don't know what we're dealing with here. People who are willing to stifle dissent

no matter what the cost. They murdered a football hero because he was against the war....after he saw what was going on. It doesn't matter if their 15 minutes of fame was over. Their CRIMES, as far as the cabal is concerned, was speaking out against the war in the first place. IF those 7 soldiers do exist, killing them as collateral damage wouldn't surprise me. These people don't care about the troops. They just say they do. If they really cared about them, they'd bring them home.

I'd like to know if the other 7 really exist too. I wouldn't be surprised to learn they don't.

[TheWraith]

74. Loosen up the tin foil.

You can't create fake people like that, for the same reason that you can't make real casualties disappear. Ask the ICasualties.org people how many different ways of verification there are. It just isn't possible.

As for the paranoid reaction that this was some kind of assassination plot, people should try doing the math. Number of soldiers who've spoken out about the war, the number of soldiers who've been in Iraq, and the number of soldiers killed so far and rising... it was only a matter of time until one or more people who'd criticized the war died there. There's really no credible case to be presented on this for being murder.

[in_cog_ni_to]

76. Sorry...I bought stock in Reynold's Foil because I need so much of it!

I know full well what this administration is capable of. They murdered Pat Tillman for crying out loud. If they would murder a football hero, they sure as hell wouldn't bat an eye at killing those soldiers. If it's proof you're looking for, forget it. The CIA Black Ops don't give proof for anything and neither does Blackwater..

[noamnety]

146. Please stop. Pat Tillman was not murdered.

He was killed in a cluster fuck of mismanagement that got not only him, but also another soldier killed, as well as a third man wounded.

From someone I know and trust - and a friend of the Tillman family:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stan-goff/the-fog-of-fame-pat-till_b_59192.html

[TwilightGardener]

83. Agree--just a bad coincidence. Get a grip, folks.

[Virginia Dare]

87. I lost my grip long ago, unfortunately..

I wish I COULD get it back. Maybe once Bushco is gone.

[TwilightGardener]

98. I know what you mean--it's so hard not to be constantly cynical and suspicious.

[Auntie Bush]

78. Or maybe they were known to be anti-war too...so who cares?

:sarcasm:

[backscatter712]

46. Bush or Cheney probably ordered...

"Make it look like an accident."

I put absolutely nothing past these fuckers. NOTHING!

[RamboLiberal]

30. Sgt Omar Mora and Sgt Yance

The family of Army Sgt. Omar Mora remembered him as a loving man who was passionate about playing soccer, fixing cars and being a soldier.

-----

His stepfather said Mora once told him that the situation in Iraq was desperate. He was especially sad about the children.

"He was sad about the way they were having to live in Iraq with the war going on," he added.

-----

Capetillo said he cautioned his stepson about the dangers of enlisting when the war was raging, but Mora said he was eager to help the country battle terrorism.

"He said he wasn't afraid," Capetillo said. "He was proud of this country and he wanted to go over and help."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/5127764.html

Not much yet on Sgt Gray

Staff Sgt. Yance T. Gray of Ismay, who joined the army in 2000, died Monday when the cargo truck he was riding in overturned in Baghdad.

-----

Sgt. 1st Class Steven Klang of Baker, who is serving as the casualty assistance officer, said Gray was a passenger in an M-915 five-ton cargo truck when it rolled over. Klang said he has not been told what caused the rollover.

A funeral with military honors is planned at Arlington National Cemetery, said Todd Stevenson of Stevenson and Sons Funeral Home in Miles City. A public memorial service is planned later in Ismay.

Gray, a graduate of Plevna High School, is the son of Richard and Karen Gray of Ismay. He is also survived by his wife, Jessica Erin Gray and infant daughter Ava Madison Gray, who live in North Carolina.

http://www.greatfallstribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070911/NEWS01/70911032

Rest in peace Sgt Mora and Sgt Gray and thank you for your service and your courage to speak the truth.

[frogcycle]

66. Sgt Mora

and his five-year-old daughter

[redqueen]

102. god...

:cry:

[derby378]

35. Can we officially call this "The Tillman Treatment?"

:mad:

[Junkdrawer]

39. Just sending a message....

Like anthrax and Wellstone...

[kenfrequed]

60. Yeah

Whatever happened to the Anthrax investigation?

[valerief]

119. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha! What anthrax? I don't recall. I don't remember.

I refuse to comment on an ongoing investigation. Let's move forward; no time to look back. Go shopping!

[frogcycle]

65. No.

It serves no purpose to express "opinion" as to who/what might be "behind" this accident. I fully expect that when the rest of the names are released from this incident, there may be others of the Op/ed group, if not killed, then among the ten wounded, since they were all from the 82nd. The cause of the truck's running off a bridge is under investigation.

The howls on DU over the helicopter crash a few weeks ago served to drive away one of my favorite posters, sanskritwarrier, who was grieving over the tragic loss of buddies. When he took umbrage with the conspiracy howls people jumped down his throat ranting about all his murderous comrades. I have not seen him here since. What did that accomplish, except to let some people with no knowledge strut their all-knowing self-importance?

[Virginia Dare]

90. It's sad that the level of mistrust runs so deep...

I don't like doubting every single thing that comes out of this administration, but it can't be helped. They have ZERO credibility. There is no depth in my mind as to what they're capable of. Frankly, I can't blame people for being suspicious about this.

[IsItJustMe]

111. If your looking to blame someone for the amount of mis-trust, paranoia, suspicion, and cynicism

that exists here in this country and at DU, I would suggest aiming it at this admininstration and all of its enablers, the source of it all; rather than at the people that have do deal with this shit for six plus years.

[MadHound]

41. It would be interesting to know if these two vehicles came from the same mortor vehicle pool

Wouldn't be that difficult to disconnect the sway bars or loosen up the shocks:shrug: Just saying, this is another one of those interesting coincidences that you can't help wondering about.

[frogcycle]

56. It was one vehicle - seven killed, 10 injured

a truck ran off a bridge, fell 30 ft.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070911/ap_on_re_us/paratroopers_killed

[Mabus]

42. Stunned. Shocked.

Wow. This hit me like a ton of bricks.

[Cha]

43. AW SHITTTTTTTTTTT!

Gawd Damn IT~!

[swag]

47. The exclamation points make the subject line seem celebratory.

I know that probably wasn't your intent. Just sayin'.

[radfringe]

48. WHEN 1 PLANE HIT A TOWER

we thought it was just a terrible accident, but when 2nd plane hit and we knew it was no accident and not a tin-foil hat moment

now we have 2 people who op-ed an article which was not flattering to the current situation in Iraq

if 1 died in a roll-over accident we would think it just a terrible accident, but when a 2nd one dies in a separate but similar manner and we think it's more than just another accident it gets labeled as tin-foil hat material.

[RamboLiberal]

62. The 2 died in same vehicle accident

Still not going to stop justifiable conspiracy theories.

[LSK]

51. IM SO SICK OF IT, MAKE IT STOP

THIS IS NOT HAPPENING!!!

:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:




Sorry, had to vent a little.

[janetle]

52. I, too, want it to stop NOW

I want all of these kids home and with their families. My children are 19 and 22 and to think that nearly 4000 of their peers have died in this mess is almost more than I can bear.

[frogcycle]

53. more

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3514090&mesg_id=3514191

[Arugula Latte]

54. Bushco murders yet again. nt

[democrank]

55. Heartbreakingly sad.

~PEACE~

[appleannie1]

59. It is true- Added Today at Final Roll Call

http://www.thefinalrollcall.us/

[nam78_two]

61. K&R.nt

[RamboLiberal]

63. Soldiers Fathers Speak Out

NEW YORK Robert Capetillo never read the controversial column his son, Omar Mora, co-wrote with six other Iraq-based soldiers for The New York Times. But when he heard about it, he had only high praise.

"Everybody has a right to speak out," Capetillo told E&P Wednesday, just two days after Mora, an Army sergeant, and fellow column-writer Yance Gray, were killed in Baghdad. "We all have a right to speak out what we feel. There are personal feelings, that is a right here we all have."

Richard Gray, father of Yance Gray, offered similar views on his son's part in the column. "I thought it was well-written and there wasn't anything in it I disagreed with, with that situation over there," he said via phone from his Montana home. "He said once that they need to divide the country up into three different countries to make things work."

Among the statements in the column, published last month, were: "In short, we operate in a bewildering context of determined enemies and questionable allies, one where the balance of forces on the ground remains entirely unclear."

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003638829

[OzarkDem]

67. Determined Enemies and Questionable Allies

Sad to say, we here in the US trying to end the Iraq war and restore democracy to the US operate in the same bewildering environment....

RIP Omar Mora and Yance Gray. You were and are true patriots who made the ultimate sacrifice to save your own country.

[Ken Burch]

64. May their families get the support they need in this time.

And may this regime soon collapse.

[Virginia Dare]

68. FUCK--they were Tillmaned..

Add this to the long list of crimes committed by and for this administration.

[valerief]

118. I asked the same question and used the same term and spellling before I saw your post.

I wonder what the probability of such a war fatality would be.

[malaise]

128. Not an unreasonable interpretation

That was my first reaction.

[barbtries]

77. this headline took my breath away.

let it be wrong....

[judaspriestess]

79. I am so sorry they are gone.

BUT I am also thankful they voiced their opinions that will forever be out there for all of us to read.

Thank you for your service and unfortunately your sacrifice.

[SoCalDem]

82. fragged?

What are the odds? ...how sad:cry:

[happygoluckytoyou]

84. GENERAL BETRAYUS HERE.........

SO.... IF THERE IS ANYONE ELSE WHO WOULD LIKE TO SPEAK UP AGAINST THIS WAR, AND MIGHT AS WELL KILL TWO BIRDS WITH ONE STONE, IF THERE IS ANYONE WHO WOULD LIKE TO LEAVE THEIR BODY ARMOR IN THE BARRACKS, AND ALSO IF THERE ARE ANY LIBERALS OR DEMOCRATS, AND ALSO IF ANYONE HERE WOULD LIKE TO DRIVE JEEP POINT DOWN A DESERTED DIRT ROAD IN IRAQ..... PLEASE RAISE YOUR HAND.

[ooglymoogly]

85. The really scary thing here is not whether this is coincidence

it is that so many believe our government capable of such a soulless murderous thing....with good reason I might add.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

89. I'm just going to assume that it is just a freak coincidence

I can only assume and hope that it is only a very freak and bizarre coincidence.

To be frank, I don't want to think that it is anything other than a very freak and bizarre coincidence. My faith in humanity and those in our government, however flawed and corrupt it may be, is that it wouldn't be any other sort of thing. As dark and disturbed as some people in the current government are, my hope is that this is something that even they would never stoop to.

The same goes for what happened to Paul Wellstone. I dare not say anything otherwise.

[happygoluckytoyou]

92. WHO ? US ?

Whenever i see the "what, me worry" grin of condecentia rice i have to question AMERIKA in general---

20 years after vietnam, and with most of the victims dead and broke, the government "admits" there was such a thing as agent orange and that it could have killed people

years after katrina victims are dead and broke and relocated, the government admits it did a poor job

when the victims of the mid-east soldiers from america return with trauma and syndrome... they will be rejected until enough are dead that the expense is avoided

we dont torture--- unless it is captured on film... then the cameras are removed and obviously the torture never happened

the japaneese who were held in internment camps were "apologized to" ... and "it will never happen again!!!", until it does

rodney king was never beaten.... until it showed up on film

tilman was a war hero until the facts were unearthed...

general betrayus KNEW there were chemical weapons...and would never lie to us... until he did... and now again

colin powell was a credible witness to go to war... his apology hollow... but the criminals are wealthy now

THERE ARE NO LIES.... ONLY MISSTATEMENTS AND UNSPOKEN TRUTHS

[trashcanistanista]

93. Condolences to their families and

prayers for the safety of the remaining soldier/writers and for a more than thorough investigation to get to the bottom of this.O8)

[L0oniX]

95. I smell a cover up. My bet is that they were fragged.

[trashcanistanista]

96. We owe them a thorough investigation into this rollover

for their heroism, nothing less. Questioning IS patriotic and no one should be admonished for it.

[eppur_se_muova]

97. Criticize the Little Prince, get extra-hazardous duty? I'll believe that.

No need for any CT. Just leave someone in the middle of a combat zone long enough and that horse will escape the barn on its own.

[Joe Chi Minh]

106. K&R

[bos1]

110. How do I contact these soldiers to thank them?

Anybody know?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

113. Oh God Let The Kooky Conspiracy Theories Commence...

So predictable and so so silly.

My deepest thoughts and prayers go out to their families.

[Virginia Dare]

123. Not silly, sad...

very sad that it's come to this that many of us automatically assume it's all a lie and a cover-up. Who can blame us, all the known lies that have been told to further the agenda of this administration.

[roxnev]

115. The MSM and the Christians

Love it more Americans killed in Iraq. Its beginning to look a lot like Mafia, a in spy in ever tree;and if you don't agree with me see, how soon a goon will appear. You are either fore us or against us Bush's. The question that can not be answered, why are Republicans such a$$ holes.

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[valerief]

117. Think they were Tillmaned? nt

[MasonJar]

126. So quickly, so sadly.

[debbierlus]

127. Media doesn't want to cover it because it will involve covering their OP ed piece

Cowards.

[frogcycle]

129. geez louise

I see all thess "we need a more thorough investigation" posts and "too big a coincidence" comments...

The seven who wrote the op/ed were all in the 82nd Airborne, work(ed) together on a daily basis. On Sept 11 they went on a mission, apparently a successful sniper mission, and were returning, with at least 20 men riding in a five-ton truck. It ran off a bridge and fell 30 feet, killing seven and wounding 10 or 11, plus killing two prisoners. Two of the killed were among the op/ed writers. It will not surprise me if others of the writers are among the killed or wounded. The cause of its running off the bridge is UNDER INVESTIGATION. Just stand down for a bit and see what that investigation says. The fact that two of the seven were killed is NOT a huge coincidence. They worked together. They do dangerous work. How about just grieving with the families, who expected them home in couple of weeks. And, of course, keeping a weather eye on the investigation and remaining skeptical of any attempt to whitewash.

[fooj]

131. Know your BFEE.

[Breeze54]

132. Yikes!! RollOver is the new code word for "blown up'!

This is terrible. :(

[Catchawave]

133. Olbermann is covering this story

read the opEd and confirmed they died :cry:

[w8liftinglady]

141. Now-I am not a conspiracy theorist-but remember THIS about Jessica Lynch's rescuers

4 of them are dead.
Petty Officer First Class David M. Tapper died of wounds received in Afghanistan. He took part in the rescue.

Lance Cpl. Sok Khak Ung was killed in a drive-by shooting. He was also part of the rescue team.

Spc Josh Daniel Speer died when his car crashed into some trees for no apparent reason. He was part of the rescue team.
Kyle Edward Williams, who worked in the same company as Lynch, died of "suicide".


"A Tucson man was shot to death outside a West Side hotel Wednesday after breaking into a vehicle and being confronted by its owner, an Army soldier, who shot him in the back and fled, police said Friday.

The soldier, Spc. Kyle Edward Williams, 21, was found dead outside San Diego on Thursday and officials believe he committed suicide with one of the seven firearms he had been carrying with him.

He left no note to explain the suicide or why he fired six shots at Noah P. Gamez, also 21, after spotting the man stealing an ice chest from his Jeep.

Williams spent seven months in the Middle East as part of the 507th Maintenance Company, the same unit as Pfc. Jessica Lynch, Army officials said.

He didn't have any disciplinary or mental health problems before he left Fort Bliss, Texas, at the end of September for 20 days of leave before moving to a new military job, the officials said."

[1776Forever]

142. What can you say? This is so tragic. Blessing to their families.

:grouphug: With a son going back to the Middle East soon this is so hard to read about. These men made us know them and their feelings in their writing and they were so courages and following the orders of a man who thinks he is doing God's work. Shame on George W. and his cohorts. Again I quote the mother who said "While George W. and Laura are getting ready for a wedding, I am getting ready for a funeral." :smoke:

[frogcycle]

143. Vehicle swerved, went off overpass

7 members of 82nd die in truck wreck
Vehicle swerved, went off overpass

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/701011.html

The soldiers were riding in a 5-ton cargo truck, part of a convoy returning from a raid early Monday morning. The Army is still trying to determine what caused the accident.

Reports that a tire had blown out on the truck, causing it to swerve, had not been confirmed, Earnhardt said. However, he said, "This was a nonbattle accident."

[proud patriot]

144. How sad

:(

[frogcycle]

145. For those who may be interested...

There remain many 82nd Airborne soldiers deployed, as well as many other units, of course. Some have very little support structure back home. As we all strive to get our government to get them out of there, or at least out of direct combat roles, we can also get personally involved:

Adopt-a-Soldier

Fort Bragg's "Adopt A Soldier" Program gives the civilian community an opportunity to show their support of deployed Soldiers on an individual and personal basis. The "adoption" involves sending letters and care packages for the duration of the Soldier's deployment. For additional information on how the program works, please contact Ms. Vicky Lee, Community Relations, at [e-mail] or 910-396-5401.

[provis99]

148. How many journalist critics of Bush have been killed in Iraq

in dubious circumstances? I read that more journalists have been killed in Iraq than were killed in the entire Vietnam War; even though in Vietnam they pretty just wandered around, without protection, unlike these "pooled" reporters in Iraq, who are imbedded with the troops (yet are dying in large numbers). Look out, Michael Ware; Bush may have you in his sights next.

[Virginia Dare]

156. I'm also reminded of the ominous "how's your boy" line Bush..

gave Jim Webb on the Senate floor. He said it almost mockingly.

[B Calm]

152. Was this another friendly fire incident?

[Wednesdays]

162. I'm not joining the chorus of those saying this was a hit job

but I can tell you that my Irony Meter just went into overload...