Something that's always baffled me .

[blues90]

Leaving out religion since I am not religous other than a few years of christian science when I was a kid , I have no real experience with religion .

I know wars have been fought because of religion and have heard almost all are , however I want to leave religion aside and ask one question .

For centuries there has been wars of sorts by socialized countries to steal resources they need from natives of other timeless lands . I think of america and africa and south america as a few .

Instead of trading for these resources they are taken along with lives .

Over time this has evolved into more and more advancements of the means used to take these resources , these are ships , then aircraft along with better bombs and technology .

My question is , is it in mans nature and I mean going all the way down the line from military to even the banks and manufactureres where what is always desired is to lie and cheat and kill or rob to advance ones own position or stance , use whatever term you feel applies .

Is it not possible to leave religion out of this ?

[BeatleBoot]

1. In their nature? No.

It's nothing more than irrational selfishness.

Irrational selfishness is a free choice. One chooses to be irrationally selfish.

One can choose to be rationally selfish which means bartering for what they need. Stealing from someone else is nothing more than irrational selfishness.

I left religion out. As it should have been.

[bluerum]

2. Well, presumably, one thing that sets us apart from our animal bretheren

is our huge and versatile brain.

This allows us to think and reason with our fellow humans as we try to work together to meet our mutual needs for survival.

Then again, Meet the new monkey,,, same as the old monkey.

[aquart]

17. Uh, animals work together to meet "mutual needs for survival."

That is NOT what separates us from the "animals."

Actually, the significant separation probably IS religion. Or, at least, the associative qualities in our brain that encourages accretion of significance.

Another standout difference may well be human sacrifice. With all the evolutionary effort that goes into the rearing and training of a human infant, we still feel we have sufficient surplus to kill our own in numerous ways, some for purely religious motives. Any other species do that?

[bluerum]

18. Yeah. I just saw an antelope helping some lions meet their mutual needs

for survival.

Granted, within certain species significant and complex social behaviors have been observed. Less so in others. But using violence or the threat of violence to obtain and protect food, water, shelter and territory is the rule of the jungle.

My point was that presumably, humans are "smart" enough to work together to meet those needs.

Religion is not on the map in my comment.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

3. I don't know but ever watch boys in a playground?

Watch what happens to the weaker ones. Watch the group take orders from the bullies. Lots of things happen. That's why teachers have to intercede.

Is that nature or the way this culture influences its boys?

And I think religion encourages and promotes this whatever-it-is.

[aquart]

4. Read Jane Goodall.

[2beToby]

5. I'm not religious, so it's easy to leave it out

although the question is one I've asked often enough.

If it makes you feel any better, I had been going to a therapist (was a requirement for a college class I was taking) and I once asked him just about the same thing. Up until that point, I had really liked him, even admired him a little bit. But his response kind of shocked me. He went into how people will always try to get power and use it to abuse the weak. I was like, "So your telling me the whole world is out for themselves?" He said almost enthusiastically, "YES!" I'll remember that forever, because it really hurt my heart to hear it.

I'll make my own decisions, but it's sad to think even if people are inherently neutral most of us think we're evil and act accordingly.

IMHO, it's in man's nature to do what he thinks is right. But individuals need to be sociable and that results in fear of going against the grain. So if a large group decides to hate something or act in a certain manner, it's much harder for one person to act good. I think I even read a study that showed your brain lets out fear hormones when you do something to stand out in a crowd. That being said, we spend our lives justifying are badness to be able to live with ourselves, instead of just doing the right thing to begin with. I don't think we could really feel remorse if we functioned purely for reproduction of the species.

Of course none of this applies to sociopaths, but that's another matter.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. It is human nature

and religion has nothing to do with this

Hell chimps go to war too, and similar behavior has now been observed among dolphins

[BeatleBoot]

7. Chimps and Dolphins

Do not have rationally thinking brains - only humans have that capacity.

I do not mean to be argumentative, I have always loved your posts.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. I'd hate to contradict you

but current studies into intelligence have blurred the lines betwen animals and people regarding rational thought, which is giving no end of fits to religious folks who do see humans as above and different from the rest of creation.

In fact, some resarches actually think that chimps are where humans were oh 2.5 million years ago regarding oh tool use

And no problem in that respect, we all learn a thing or two hear

You can start with Jane Goodall's studies and move from there

[Smarmie Doofus]

8. Short answer: Yes.

>>>My question is , is it in mans nature and I mean going all the way down the line from military to even the banks and manufactureres where what is always desired is to lie and cheat and kill or rob to advance ones own position or stance , use whatever term you feel applies .


Only the strong... and the most *aggressive*.... survive; this is the history of the human race in a nutshell. We are wired to promote the interests of 1. the self; 2. the family unit; 3. the tribe.... however we perceive and define that.

That said, we are evolving ( I do believe) in a way that the third category is becoming increasingly broad. The tribe ultimately ( to the most evolved among us) includes the whole of humanity.





>>Is it not possible to leave religion out of this ?>>>>

Well, no. It's involved. To my knowledge there are no known societies without a prevailing 'belief system' although many members may dissent within a given group. It's bound to the tribal-identity question and to the question of how to treat the members of the 'out groups'. It can and usually does play conflicting and contradictory roles. Kill em, enslave 'em, save'em, leave'em alone. All these approaches can find a religious rationale. Our own dominant Judeo-Christian religious tradition illustrates this as well as anything else.

[blues90]

9. So then I ask this .

If man is just an advanced animal then would the answer just be simply survival of the fittest in over drive ?

If this is the case then is it possible man has advanced beyond the means of his own control . As far as progress which allows for more advanced means of taking what one needs to the level of insanity .

If this is the case than man has effectively designed his own extinction , and this , over time and pressure has somehow become normal and accepted .

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. There is where the whole thinking about

transhumans is comming from

Incidentally I am working on a short sci fi story regarding this theme, and the society where the hero happens to be at is controlled in all respects, including reproduction

Of course you get into issues such as is this free and do we have free will?

[blues90]

14. are you refering to man being part of an alien life ?

If so , I have considered this at times . There are still apes and there are remains of mans physical evolution from apes .

This is the strangest part since the ape is most manlike of anyother life form on earth .

To make it even more confusing there are the facial charactoristics of man that differ across the globe as well as skin color and culture . All do have the same love and family unit in mind .

Maybe there was a mix match and we are just one huge failed experiment .

[BeatleBoot]

12. An advanced animal in two distinct ways...

1) Posable Thumbs

2) A Rational Thinking Brain

Therefore, I go back to my original point, man can save himself from his own extinction if he/she uses their brain.

It's his/her choice.

Man hasn't evolved beyond the thinking, rational brain nor posable thumbs.

In short: Choose to use the ole noggin' or go extinct.

[sam sarrha]

15. i tend to agree with the Buddhists about Samsara.. it never changes much, you have to develop the

mind in order to get out of the eternal cysles... http://www.buddhanet.net search Samsara and 4 Noble Truths

it seems we can evolve on our within the mind, the term Buddha means one who is awake

[blues90]

16. I was refering to mans inventions but got off track

Man has used his brain to develope all sorts of machinery and tools and the computer . However in mans quest to invent he has at the same time brought us to where we are now . There are many who say if we didn't invent the atom bomb then someone else will so we may as well do it and be first . What if we were wrong , what if the very first fool who came up with this idea in his dancing pride fell down a flight of stairs and broke his neck .

My point is man claimed to save time and did however nothing is without sacrfice and we certainly see this now . Man now competes with machines and machines compete with machines and here we are in one big rush to go nowhere .

[sam sarrha]

13. the mind has a program to fill in the blanks.. cant conceive of infinity/beginning/.. whallla...gOD!

when i found out Santa Claus was a cruel sick joke... of course i assumed very quickly and correctly ..that so was Jesus.. and the whole gOD thing