The MoveOn "Betrayus" ad was a stupid distraction

[cali]

Yep, name calling is always such an effective argument. Not. Sorry, this was just tone deaf of them. The MSM is already having a field day. Why give them such an easy target.

Dumb. Just dumb.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. Worring about protestors...

when you've got a warmonger lying to Congress is stupid.

Dumb. Just dumb.

[cali]

5. The Art of War

we are in a war with these people, and fighting them requires craft. Don't hand your enemy ammunition. That's pretty fucking basic.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. Right, right.

"keep the powder dry" and all that bullshit.

[BeFree]

16. Yeah

Is it the deep powder that smells so bad or is it the bs? And why do folks here go down on their knees so quickly for the MSM messages?

[cali]

18. Not at all.

Are you really that obtuse? There are better ways to call him out. It's that simple. Resort to name calling, and it'll be universally repudiated in D.C.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

24. Oh boo fucking hoo.

:nopity:

This hearing is a mockery of how the government is supposed to work, and this general is a disgrace to his uniform.

The man's begging to be mocked.

[cali]

31. Obtuse.

it's a foolish way to go through life.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

33. I guess you'd know.

You're the one taking this bullshit seriously.

[LeftCoast]

47. Well, if you're going to use the powder be sure not to aim at your own feet

I'm just sayin'

[ConnecticutMan1]

124. The truth is not amunition for "them"

These republicans need a reality slap in the face BIG TIME. This is one of those ratre times that Move On has it right, IMHO.

[dogday]

151. I'm sorry when did we go from Liberators to War Mongers?

Just sayin :shrug:

[cali]

152. I am at war with the repukes and others

who want to keep this war going. And I make no apologies for it. Battling the forces who want to stay in Iraq is not being a war monger, any more than the advocates of the war on poverty were war mongers.

[dogday]

153. So we were right to go there in the first place?

I am not saying you are, I am asking how we as a country became that way?

[cali]

154. I have no idea what you're talking about. Honestly.

How did the country become what way? And no, of course we weren't right to go there. We couldn't possibly have been wronger, and I've been opposed to the war long before it began.

[dogday]

155. How can you be opposed and for the war at the same time?

We started this as "operation freedom" and it was never about that, don't you know.. It has always been a war to begin with... We the American people were duped into believing we were doing something wonderful, when all along we were after the resources and location of this country....

[cali]

157. I give up. You are seriously misreading what I've written

I AM AGAINST THE WAR. I WAS AGAINST THE WAR MONTHS BEFORE IT STARTED. I HAVE NEVER, IN MY THOUSANDS OF POSTS HERE SAID ANYTHING OTHER THAN THAT I AM STRONGLY OPPOSED TO THIS WAR.

And I wasn't duped. I knew it was bullshit from the get go. How the fuck you're getting the idea that I'm simultaneously for and opposed to the war can only be attributed to willful misunderstanding, extensive confusion, or poor reading skills.

Have a good day.

[dogday]

158. When one loses the argument, one resorts to insults

Remind you of anyone? Good day to you....

[greyl]

161. What the heck are you on about?

Putting words in someones mouth does not equal winning an argument.

[dogday]

162. When a poster feels the need to insult another poster

the argument then becomes a lost cause... I am looking to discuss the issues not throw insults at people....

[Larkspur]

2. MSM will disparage any ad MoveOn or any other progressive group does

I thought it was a good ad. Pretraus is a Bush "yes man".

[rainy]

11. Bingo! It doesn't matter what we do or say. When we are pointing out the

truth we are attacked. This is routine. Original poster--are you suggesting we should stop telling the truth to win? What will we win?

[karynnj]

32. You can tell the truth without attacking someone with middle school like

name calling. I don't like Limbaugh etc calling our leaders traitors - and this is the equivalent.

[rainy]

53. They were suggesting that we may be betrayed. And they are right!

Limbaugh is usually wrong. Moveon hits hard with truth unlike the swift-boaters but the media will denounce moveon and let swift-boaters go on and on. Its a double standard.

[karynnj]

61. All I am saying is that you can make the case that the surge is not working

by directing people to the measurements that were in place to judge it - by that report card, it failed.

The general is speaking of the military results and has a vested interest in showing the results in the best possible light - it was HIS project. The name calling diverts attention from the reality - the surge did not do what Bush said it would and should do. Moveon in effect created a diversion, when the facts were what we wanted people to see.

[Larkspur]

164. Petraeus is a liar and a Bush boot-licker

The general said that his "surge" was working before it even began. He also had an op ed published prior to the 2004 election saying that our invasion and occupation of Iraq were a success.

Petraeus is a liar and a Bush stooge. The MoveOn.org ad hits the nail on the head. The Truth hurts. Get use to it.

[robinlynne]

95. PPlease. People are dying.

[karynnj]

131. That's why I care

Insulting generals does not stop that - We need to get 60 and then 67 Senators. We don't have them now - and it will be harder to get them if we have cheap tacky stunts - like this where someone thought he was oh so cute playing with the name.

[maui9002]

119. I think the original poster

was concerned that the ad might affect people differently than intended. If the purpose of the ad was to persuade anyone, my view is that it completely missed the mark; those who agreed with the sentiments expressed by the ad didn't need a full page ad to be convinced--those who are on the fence about what to do in light of the Iraq debacle (or for other reasons such as their family is military)I think would react negatively to the ad, driving away those we most need to persuade. Unless the ad was designed to make those who are already against the war feel good (a waste of scarce resources in my view), it just doesn't work. That's not to say ads shouldn't tell the truth, or be hard hitting; MoveOn has been responsible for a number of very effective ads, especially during the last election, but this one seemed more to rally the faithful than convince the undecided.

[Bucky]

60. Childish playground style taunts makes it harder to unify opposition to the war

The problem isn't how your opponents see you. The problem is the number of people who might want to join a dignified opposition to an obscene war, but find the notion of calling war supporters "poo poo heads" beneath the dignity of a democratic debate.

[AlCzervik]

3. what i don't get is why they didn't wait until tomorrow and use his own words

in the ad if he's lying.

[babylonsister]

4. Oh, I don't know. Petraeus had to address the fact he didn't manufacture

his report in cahoots with the wh (whether true or not), and that Betray-us meme got out there, so he knows how many skeptics there are. Maybe not so bad; perhaps that was their intent.

[panader0]

6. This is a circle jerk circus, a daisy chain

Call a spade a spade. He IS betraying us.

[EVDebs]

106. Iraq is arabic for 'clusterf*@K

[Babsbrain]

7. Like Tony Snow just said...

"It's a boorish, childish, unworthy attack"

Yeah...and so was the Boston Tea Party.

[movonne]

43. Well if tony snow says it, I guess it must be right...

[Connie_Corleone]

8. It's one thing for some people on a message board to use that "betray us" name

It's another thing to run a full page ad calling a general "Betray Us".

It wasn't smart at all. They could've gotten their point across way better than that.

Just my humble opinion.

[lyonn]

110. Just to make things better, let's call him General Dearest

sarcasm

You gotta admit that the repubs at the hearing thought we had committed an act of treason. They just Love that man. I have no heroes, except for our troops!

[TomInTib]

10. I am in full agreement.

Speaking from a professional Marketing perspective, I believe that it was incredibly bone-headed.

[BeFree]

12. Well

As an oppressed citizen of the USA, I am happy to see the truth come out.

We have been betrayed and that is the message that needs to come out... don't you think?

[Name removed]

21. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TomInTib]

44. I would have held it until after his appearance.

Counter-punch his bs.

They should have foreseen the right using this as a smokescreen behind which they could hide Petraeus.

[Blashyrkh]

108. From a modern marketing perspective, this is a pretty clever move.

What are we talking about? What ad grabbed everyone's attention today? The ad has got far more attention than it would have without it.

In marketing, there is no such thing as negative attention.

[Junkdrawer]

13. Remember: The only way to win is to never fight...and if you must fight...

put up token resistance.

Now if we could only convince the Republicans of this....

[cali]

25. Fighting smart doesn't mean "token resistance" n/t

[spoony]

67. If you must fight...don't sound like you're on a bloody playground

They really might as well have gone with "Patraeus-rayus-bo-bayus, bananarama..."

[MadHound]

14. Oh heaven forbid we call somebody who is partially responsible for death and destruction names

:eyes:

Yes, we must be politce to our brutal, bloodthirsty, lying, thiefing leaders, otherwise somebody from their side will call us names.

Whatever.

Good thing you weren't around for the American Revolution, they did a hell of lot more than call names, and gee, won our freedom by doing so.

[Beelzebud]

15. We should collectively apologize, sit down, shut up, and fund the war for 6 more months!

[Individualist]

34. That's the DLC way

Anyone who protests/heckles neocon mouthpieces should get down on their knees and beg forgiveness from the almighty DLC!

[Beelzebud]

36. How dare the peasents speak ill of their lords.

[ShortnFiery]

48. And heaven forbid we speak a cross word to General "Peaches" Petraeus!

:eyes: :thumbsdown:

[redqueen]

174. And no calling any bush-enabling warmongers any mean nasty names!

*sigh*

[Atman]

17. Meanwhile, Ari Fleischer runs ads saying Iraq attacked the WTC.

And that's cool. But damn...we Dems shouldn't criticize a Bush lackey now, should we?

And we wonder why we're laughed at.

.

[cali]

28. No it's not cool. Do you know anyone who

says it is? As I recall, two MSM outlets refused to run the idiot Ari ads.

[doublethink]

19. Personally I think it's a Great Slogan !!!

The American attention span as you know is quite ...... limited. "The Betray Us Report" ...... if repeated over and over and over and over again...... any major marketing firm, advertising firm, etc... etc... would give it two thumb's up as an attention getter. :thumbsup: Peace. :):):):)

"THE BETRAY US REPORT"

[Babsbrain]

dupe

[Babsbrain]

20. It is time to fight fire with fire

For years we have been ridiculed, marginalized, lied to, silenced, terrorized, and stripped of our citizenship.

If name calling bothers you, think how pissed you'll be when you have lost everything you thought was yours.

[cali]

26. Betray us is fine on DU. It's jut stupid

in a full page NYT ad, and counter-productive. In other words, it may make YOU feel good to see it, but it doesn't do jackshit except distract from the issues. They could have undermined him far better.

And you may be silenced and terrorized, but I'm not. I won't be silenced. I won't be frightened of the bastards. Loathe them? Yes. Fear them? NO.

[Babsbrain]

38. That ad may have distracted YOU

but it hasn't distracted me. Focus.

[Babsbrain]

41. What is fine on DU

now ABSOLUTELY has to be taken to the big world. We are all brave soldiers of the 101st Chairborne but it is past time to step away from our keyboards and become visible, vocal and victorious!

[ShortnFiery]

49. Stupid to you, but highly effective. I suggest we rotate General "Betrayus" and General "Peaches"

:rofl: :thumbsup:

[cali]

55. Really? Highly effective?

You mean it's compelling rhetoric that will persuade people on the fence? Somehow I doubt that.

[Babsbrain]

63. You don't like name calling....

and in another thread you opposed the protestors at the hearings.

Maybe we should just tell the asses of evil that we won't be their best friends anymore. That should do it.

[Beausoir]

22. Which ad? The print ad? I'm missing something.

[babylonsister]

101. Here you go:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1776081

[Beausoir]

147. Ok..yeah..that's what I thought it was. Seems pretty tame to me.

WTF is the big uproar about?

[redqueen]

175. Establishment types don't like it... so Dems are attacking each other

for upsetting the establishment types.

[TwilightGardener]

23. Agreed. MoveOn does not speak for me. Dumb move.

[antiimperialist]

27. Moveon speaks for me. Excellent, sharp, fearless, accurate

Thumps up to Moveon.org

[VP505]

29. It might be a

dumb move but it has tongues wagging all over the place, what better way to draw attention to what Bu$hCo wants to hide?

[antiimperialist]

30. It would have helped if you specified the parts of the ads that were dumb

Can you please expand your five-sentence post and explain what is wrong with the ad?

[doublethink]

35. Actually I'm beginning to think your post while Betray Us is giving his .....

assessment on TV is a distraction. Hmmmmm wonder why that is? Peace. :hi:

[mdmc]

37. God Bless MOVEON - last group of good guys

moveon is not an arm of the Dem party.
Let the DLC take out a pro-surge full page ad, if needed.
Let the DNC state why the war "should be lost", and not "fought until we have victory"

I really hope that we see a new political party in the future - the moveon party.

[Babsbrain]

39. For everyone who was offended by the ad....

What would you have liked the ad to say?

[libnnc]

40. "We respectfully suggest...only suggest...that perhaps

the war isn't going very well, and maybe...just a suggestion, perhaps we should change course...if it isn't asking too much. If it is asking too much, well, nevermind..."

Meanwhile...back in Iraq...body parts go flying :nuke:

[maui9002]

123. I'll take a shot

While I wasn't offended by the ad, I thought it was a waste of money because (IMHO) it will be dismissed as name calling by those we need to convince the most. That doesn't mean, however, that you cannot be brutally honest or critical. For instance, perhaps an ad that was in the form of general letter from the American people to General Petraeus.

General Petraeus:

The American people and the servicemen and women serving in Iraq are counting on you to provide an honest appraisal of the situation in Iraq.

In the past, the current administration has used highly decorated generals of unassailable character to spread disinformation about the war on terror and weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

Will you be the next general to be used in this way? Or will you fulfill your duty to your countrymen and those who serve under you by telling the truth?

We're pretty sure if Colin Powell had a second chance, he'd choose the latter.

You owe the American people the truth. General Petraeus, don't betray us.

Respectfully,
The American People

[simmonsj811]

42. HOW IS THIS DIFFERENT FROM

THE ADS THAT BEING SHOWN ON FOX CNN AND THE REST OF FREEDOM WATCH.COM OR WHAT EVER ITS CALL??
STATING THAT WE SHOULD STAY AND COMPLETE THE MISSION FOR EVER HOW LONG OR AT WHAT COSTS??
AN ANOTHER QUESTION WHY IS IT EVERY TIME THE RIGHT SAIDS SOMETHING OR COMPLAINS
EVERYONE WANTS TO START BACK PEDDLING? I FOR ONE THINK THAT WE SHOULD ALWAYS
STAND OUR GROUNDS FOR WHAT WE BELIEVE THAT'S RIGHT.

AND SO WHAT! LET'EM SCREAM ONLY 25% OF AMERICA IS LISTENING ANYWAY

[Truth2Tell]

45. Actually name calling can be quite effective,

especially against politicians. Look how even threats of name calling have the Democrats cowering in the corners.

Fight back!

[ShortnFiery]

46. I loved it! We are blessed to have such activists among us.

moveon.org :yourock:

[Liberal In Texas]

50. Frankly, I'm not in the "DON'T MAKE WAVES" faction of the Democratic Party.

If we don't start making waves and raising our voices, we're going to end up with nukes being lit in the ME and possibly the end of our country and perhaps life as we know it.

This ad in the NYT is the least they should be hearing!

[H2O Man]

51. September 10th thinking. n/t

[cali]

57. Whatever. My point is that

a) It distracts.
b) It's not effective rhetoric. Presumably they took out a full page ad in the NYT to effectively undermine Petraeus, and to persuade fence sitters.

[alcibiades_mystery]

79. On b), how do you know?

You have no empirical evidence that the ad is doing anything at all. The notion of "effective rhetoric" is notoriously slippery, in any case. You first have to draw a conclusion about purpose, then you have to demonstrate in some way that the purpose has not been achieved. As I see it, you're speculating about purpose, and you can't possibly have any evidence to demonstrate anything one way or another. You're basically imbuing your personal taste with some pretension to an empirically demonstrable claim, but it ain't there.

That said, I agree with you that the ad is strained, but your claims here are little more than rank speculation.

[Hamlette]

52. I completely agree! I cringed when I saw it and the more I thought about it, the more it bothered

me. I've always sent them money, been a supporter since its foundation under Clinton. I'll be finding other places to send my money.

We are always pissed when the right calls us names (Hitlery, Clintoon etc.). It doesn't solve anything and just hardens the other side.

[Babsbrain]

54. Sorta like emboldening the enemy, you mean?

Emboldening the enemy
Emboldening the enemy
Emboldening the enemy

Apply directly to your forehead

[doublethink]

56. In case you missed the substance of the Ad .....

Here it is .....

General Petraeus or General Betray Us?

Cooking the books for the White House

General Petraeus is a military man constantly at war with the facts. In 2004, just before the election, he said there
was “tangible progress” in Iraq and that “Iraqi leaders are stepping forward.” And last week Petraeus, the architect
of the escalation of troops in Iraq, said, “We say we have achieved progress, and we are obviously going to do
everything we can to build on that progress.”

Every independent report on the ground situation in Iraq shows that the surge strategy has failed. Yet the General
claims a reduction in violence. That’s because, according to the New York Times, the Pentagon has adopted a bizarre
formula for keeping tabs on violence. For example, deaths by car bombs don’t count. The Washington Post reported
that assassinations only count if you’re shot in the back of the head — not the front. According to the Associated
Press, there have been more civilian deaths and more American soldier deaths in the past three months than in any
other summer we’ve been there. We’ll hear of neighborhoods where violence has decreased. But we won’t hear that
those neighborhoods have been ethnically cleansed.

Most importantly, General Petraeus will not admit what everyone knows: Iraq is mired in an unwinnable religious
civil war. We may hear of a plan to withdraw a few thousand American troops. But we won’t hear what Americans are
desperate to hear: a timetable for withdrawing all our troops. General Petraeus has actually said American troops
will need to stay in Iraq for as long as ten years.

Today, before Congress and before the American people, General Petraeus is likely to become General Betray Us.

here's a link with all the relevant sources. http://pol.moveon.org/petraeus.html

Read it slowly, let it sink in ...... where has this administration used our millitary to cook the books before? Another link .....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1774757

Peace.

[Cha]

160. Wow! That's Good!

Thanks, tremendously, doublethink! :)

And Peace to you, too!

[doublethink]

176. No problem zidzi !

Now help me out on this thread if ya got a moment! :) http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1783571&mesg_id=1783571

Peace again.

[slor]

58. Take it easy people, cali is entitled to his/her opinion...

in fact, not listening to opinions is partially why we are stuck in Iraq. We are all sick of this mess, and I am sure many are at the breaking point, but let us not become unnecessarily belligerent to one of our own.

[Cha]

159. And we are entitled to

our opinions..thanks.

[Malikshah]

59. What is worse-- name calling or calling for more troops to die?

"Yep, name calling is always such an effective argument. Not. Sorry, this was just tone deaf of them."

Call me tone deaf-- at least I'm alive.

Let's all get our priorities straight here.

This whole polite/chess-game/politics distraction misses the point by a few light years.

We're talking the wholesale destruction of one country continuing without end while the "death of thousand knives" death cripples the U.S.

It is time to call out those that support the non-stop war for what they are. Traitors.

In other words-- Betrayers...

That's all. Schoolkid taunts are are nothing. At least these folks aren't being gutted and bombed.

[bryant69]

62. Dead Straight, Mate!

I totally agree.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[sce56]

64. I feel it is a justified ad! Is this not the same Gen that said we found "Mobile Bio Labs" BS

If we have a truly free future Historians will probaly link his actions with the Likes of Benedict Arnold. I agree 150% with MoveOn.org
See their write up on Betrayus here
http://pol.moveon.org/petraeus.html
Got Fascism Yet?


http://web.archive.org/web/20030602211200/
Fascism Accomplished!

[Oilwellian]

65. Indeed it is

If lying for the Bush crime family isn't a betrayal, I don't know what is. Thanks MoveOn for telling it like it is.

[cali]

66. it's not about it being justified

It's accurate. He's a liar. And in fact, if they'd just left off the cutsie name calling, it would have been an effective ad. I was fine with the text, including accusing him of cooking the books, but you don't take out a full page NYT ad, just to be a distraction. They played right into the pukes hands. The American people LOVE the military. This just isn't good rhetoric. (and by good, I mean persuasive).

[Babsbrain]

70. To you it was a distraction

To the majority of this country, it was a much-needed shot across their bow.

[cali]

72. Bzzzt. Wrong.

There are stories all over about dems being called upon to condemn the ad, and their actually doing it. Again, this is not going to get through to the military loving American electorate. They may hate the war, but they love the warriors.

[Babsbrain]

74. Damn...who are these democrats?

[cali]

78. Read it yourself. Here's a link

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/09/10/petraeus.moveon/index.html

This was so predictable. Man, I hate it when our side acts this stupid.

[Babsbrain]

80. and what side would that be?

[cali]

82. Our side.is allies like

MoveOn, is Senators and Reps who are standing up against the bushco and the war machine.

[lyonn]

121. A MoveOn guy was on tv awhile ago and said he wished he had

done something similar when General Powell gave his speech to the U.N. We might have got some questions floating around in the media.

It might have helped, who knows? A little bad press for the left isn't as bad as another soldier dying. This hearing was worse than I expected.

[Babsbrain]

77. Still waiting to hear what Dems are denouncing this

p.s. Liebermann doesn't count. or any other DINO. We know who's paying their bills.

[cali]

83. for pete's sake

do you really need to be spoonfed? I gave you a link. Click it.

Lame.

[Babsbrain]

90. I think you just called me lame.

That is name-calling. But you see, I don't think less of you for name-calling. I am not distracted by your name calling. I do not think it is un-American to name-call.

I just see you as being dead, flat wrong.

[cali]

91. I didn't call you lame

I called your seeming inability to avail yourself of the link I provided, lame.

And sorry, much as I wish I were wrong, I'm not. All you have to do to see that, is click on the link.

[sce56]

76. Well I feel it was ok! Don't worry they are getting ready to pull out the next expert

Dr Strangelove

[Mutineer]

68. Sometimes I agree with MoveOn

Sometimes I don't. But the GOP will seize on anything we do or say that runs counter to what they want to do or what they are saying. It's to be expected.

[hisownpetard]

69. I stand with you on your OP and all your subsequent posts in this thread.

I am a contributor and supporter of MoveOn, but I didn't support the ad.
It was a pre-emptive strike (and we all know what kind of results that can bring!).
Would have been better to use all the money spent on the ad to address and correct the lies
that were presented today to WeThePeople.

[Babsbrain]

73. It was not preemptive

He lied about finding the mobile weapons lab.

[hisownpetard]

112. I know, but it was "pre-emptive" concerning the bogus report we knew he was going to deliver. nt

[cali]

75. Thanks, and I agree.

Man, they could have run a killer ad tomorrow with all the crap spewed by Petraeus today. Hell, the could have started it out with:

General Petraeus, have you no shame?

And followed it with a point by point refutation, starting with the irrefutable fact that there are now almost 4.3 million refugees, approximatel 20% of the population, and the fact that Baghdad has been ethnically cleansed, etc, etc.

[doublethink]

81. It's called a preemptive strike .... gotta play by their games huh .....

It got peoples attention if nothing else, and who's to say what tomorrow will bring? ...... FACTS MAYBE .. AND MORE PEOPLE PAYING ATTENTION? ..... ummmmmm could be. MSM ... Can only count on Keith O there unfortunately .... we shall see. Peace.

[Quixote1818]

71. Your wrong because most Americans feel the same way as the ad. nt

[cali]

87. No they don't.

The military is highly esteemed in the country. Now, I'm not a fan of the military, and I hate all the crap exhalting those who are serving in Iraq, but I'm smart enough to recognize that most people don't agree with me. The military, in EVERY poll on the subject, is vastly more popular than Congress or the Executive.

[Quixote1818]

97. Polls show the majority of Americans don't believe that ass

That puts them right in line with the Move-On ad. How much more clear can it be?

[goodhue]

84. www.betrayusreport.com

www.betrayusreport.com

[doublethink]

88. Shit this needs a post of it's own .... please post it and I'll start the Recs!!!!!

That's great ..... ! :rofl:

[goodhue]

89. okay . . .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1776435

[DrunkenMaster]

85. I Disagree

I think "betray us" is an effective meme to use. Now anyone who has seen that ad (or heard about it in the MSM) with autocmatically recall it when they hear the General's name. It's short, it's catchy & might "stick", I think it might work.

[Quixote1818]

86. Within the context of the ad, I think it scores a direct hit!

Taken outside the context of the ad, it sounds childlike. If it draws attention to the ad then I think it was a brilliant move!

[robinlynne]

96. It sure made my day brighter just knowing it was there.

[sampsonblk]

92. Yep

[doublethink]

93. WWW.Betray-us-report-com ......

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/downloads/betrayusreport.htm

BETRAY US REPORT.COM ......

what more could one day of word of mouth accomplish? ;) ahhhhh yes a good SLOGAN gets um all the time .... thank's for playing .... you may leave the witness stand :thumbsup:

[Bonhomme Richard]

94. Maybe it's me. I just read it and I don't understand what all......

the fuss is about. It seemed pretty mild by repug standards and I think it has become a tempest in a teapot. I only wish they put in there the fact he wrote that OpEd in the WashPost selling the war.

[Imagevision]

98. It's stoopid to say MoveOn "Betrayus" ad was a stupid distraction, freedom of speech and

I believe this crooked administration simply instructed Patreaus what the hell to say, how many more general's will Bush be listening to? I think at least one more.

[cali]

103. To paraphrase Clinton:

It's the framing, stupid.

[Coexist]

99. yeah, we should just shut up and wait for people to come to their senses

it should only take another 5 years and $3 billion.

[cali]

102. Let me try and explain this simply:

The American people overwhelmingly support the military. Calling Patraeus a name will not convince those who aren't sure whether or not to give the admin that "one more chance". MoveOn could have published the same ad without the cutsie name calling. Even better, they could have waited until tomorrow and slammed him with a powerful refutation of his lies. As Lakoff says, it all about the framing. They did a lousy job of it.

That is NOT telling anyone to shutup and wait. And btw, get your facts straight: We're spending close to 3 billion a week, and we're approaching 800 billion now. Another 5 years, and we'll have spent close to a trillion and a half.

[Quixote1818]

105. You are not giving the American people enough credit

They are smart enough to separate a lying sack of shit who happens to wear the uniform from those who deserve to wear the uniform. Polls show America knows he is lying. The ad will only reinforce what most already believe.

[cali]

109. You may be right. I hope you're right.

But yeah, I'm not big on the collective wisdom of the American people. What polls show that America knows he's lying? Hopefully some will come out, but just recently 2 major polls indicated that a sizeable majority trusted the military re Iraq over the Congress and the executive branch.

And I really believe that Lakoff was onto something about framing.

[onenote]

148. I think you're right on the money on this

The ad clearly was a distraction -- it allowed the repubs to put the Democrats on the defensive and to refocus the discussion so that any criticism of Petraeus was equated as support for the moveon ad. And the worst part is that anyone with the slightest bit of political savvy could've seen it coming a mile away.

[nadinbrzezinski]

100. If MoveOn (or any other "lib'rul" organization

came with Flowers and saluted the General they would be call out anyhow

That is WHAT THE SCLM does...

Get it now?

It doesn't matter.

[Exiled in America]

104. I agree that I think their choice of ads was poor. But that doesn't excuse MSM's lying about it

..and its content.

[EVDebs]

107. The DoD/GOP bright side slogan: "Keep troops in Iraq until after summer of '08 , that's great"

[Nutmegger]

111. I think it was a well said ad. I praise MoveOn for putting it so succinctly.

I'm proud that an organization like MoveOn can raise the money and place the truth in a newspaper.

It had to be said. It was the "Betray us" report.

Everything said today was a joke. The American people are already fed up with all this spin. Once the American people hear the phony crap from him today, that will further solidify the support for withdrawal.

[malaise]

113. It is a great ad

What more as Eli Pariser & Markos Moulitsas pointed out on Tweety, many of these right wing goons would have said the same if MoveOn had taken out a similar ad for Colin Powell's lies in 2003.


Bushco and Betrayus' lies are the distraction.

[cali]

117. It's the framing, stupid.

No,no, I'm not calling you stupid. I'm paraphrasing Clinton here- with a large dash of Lakoff.

The ad itself was fine. The name calling was not an effective tactic.

In addition, I think it would have been a shrewder move to have run an ad tomorrow refuting his lies one by one- just as he's about to go up in front to the Senate.

[The Doctor.]

114. It's hardly 'giving anyone ammo'.

It's an ad, ads want attention.

"The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about." - Oscar Wilde

In the art of war, one may exchange a brick for a jade. The content of the ad is damning. More people will talk about the ad. More people will see the ad.

The 'brick' which is the 'ammo' and subsequent derision will yield the 'jade' of wider attention.

This is not a bad thing overall.

[madfloridian]

115. Great ad

Good for them.

[Raksha]

116. I've become extremely wary of the "this will backfire on us" argument.

I hear that about anything attention-getting and EFFECTIVE. Now I've come to associate it with Repukes, trolls and overly timid Democrats. Giving you the benefit of the doubt here, obviously.

[bigtree]

118. It was one (apt) line at the end of an eloquent criticism

This rah rah crap for the generals is not going to distract from their refusal to end the occupation. The name just might stick.

[pnwmom]

120. Don't fall for the false outrage of the Rethugs.

The Bush administration HAS betrayed us, time and time again. The Rethugs know this, and so they're trying to divert the public's attention. Don't fall for it. Everything in that MoveOn ad is true.

[ConnecticutMan1]

125. EXACTLY!

Don't let the criminals set themselves up as victims ever again.

[bridgit]

122. I agree, name calling in juvenile, and as a poster mentions up thread...

they could have waited for the Gen's own words, or composed a 'precursor to the expectation of truth or else' advert that way when the truth is not/was not forth-coming prey for remedy, they've got the money better to target it more wisely :thumbsup:

[pnwmom]

127. The thrust of the report was already well known.

Nothing in the ad has been discredited.

And the entire Bush administration HAS betrayed the American public, over and over again.

The "name-calling" in this instance is well-deserved.

[bridgit]

129. my attorney advised me once, when i was quite sure i'd been wronged...

to wait till my transgressor was clearly in the sunlight, if you will, with no where else to go or be seen but where they were

he said further, that the positioning; my positioning before the bar would be understood as that of a plaintiff for having been clearly wronged so while not engaging in tit-for-tat, and that the court would more readily consider my prayers for remedy & relief

he was right, my transgressor was wrong, i prevailed while never having to call anyone names but state simple fact

i understand what you are saying, but i am saying what i have said from a position of experiential reference

if we have the truth on our side which both you & i believe we do...why are we not prevailing?

[pnwmom]

146. One reason some people think we're not prevailing

is that our appeals to people tend to be too cerebral and too polite. The Rethugs excel in appeals to emotion -- something we are loathe to do.

"Gen. BetrayUs" is a snappy phrase that tells the truth and hits people in the gut. The Rethugs know it and they're on the defensive. Good -- as long as we don't start apologizing.

Instead, we should be shouting it to the rooftops -- Bush and his cronies HAVE betrayed us. Again and again and again.

[Ilsa]

126. They misused it, IMO. They could have used a more beseeching

tone, "Hey Petreaus, don't betray us," instead of namecalling. I think I am mostly in agreement with you, cali.

[snappyturtle]

128. My thinking is the ad was just fine....said what needs to be said.

I've also read threads here today on the protesters...pros and cons. And now this..pro and con. Maybe we wouldn't need ads in newspapers and protesters at hearings if our elected respresentatives took time to talk with these groups and/or their constituents. They are not over burdened in the listening department. Even when we have their attention they often times do not answer the questions posed. Neither of these maneuvers is ideal but without them what do we have? imho.

[burythehatchet]

130. haaaa ha ha ha ha ha

:rofl:

oh my, what will CNN and Fox think?

:rofl:

tool

[cali]

132. er, no. and if you read my posts throughout the

thread, you'd know that wasn't my point. briefly, it puts dems in the congress on the defence, spending time distancing themselves from namecalling, and it does nothing to solidify support from all those Americans who have doubts about the war but love the military. Not to mention that it was poorly framed.

[GeorgeGist]

133. Like it or not ...

Petraeus is a TRAITOR who deserves far worse than being called out. If you want to remain a sheep, that's your fault, not MOVEON's.

[Colorado Progressive]

135. So anyone who has evolved beyond name-calling is a sheep? Neat. nt

[B Calm]

141. I agree with MOVEON

[Colorado Progressive]

134. I agree with Cali. Insulting a member of our armed forces will not help.

How much choice do you REALLY think Petraeous had in what he presented? He may have written the script himself, but only after conferring every frigging morning with Bushco. I dont appreciate what he said (lied) but honestly, was anyone surprised? Do you think Bush would have chosen him if he wasnt loyal to Bush?

I think Move On's ad will just further the "Dems are traitors, Dems dont support our troops" bullshit. We all KNOW Petraeous LIED. But for shits sake, insulting a general in a full page ad in NYT?????? They could have been much more classy than that. They didn't need to use this childish "Betrayus" on a man who has been a general and serving our country for what 30 years?

If Dems want to win people over they cant insult our military, and this was a cheap shot any way. I am pissed, I think it hurt us more than helped. And listening to their bimbo spokeswoman on Ed Schultz today, she wasnt impressive, sounded like a moran just repeating the same shit, couldnt even answer a question. Whatever. This country needs to heal, this will not help.

[Babsbrain]

136. Tactical Handbooks on the Art of Political War

For Republicans:

1. First and foremost, lie, lie, lie
2. Keep the citizens in constant state of fear.
3. Be completely secret about EVERYTHING.
4. Surround yourself with loyalists only.
5. Ridicule, slander and marginalize the opponents.
6. Bribe or blackmail whomever it takes to meet your objectives.
7. Spy on anyone who can hurt or help you.
8. Gut the foundations of democracy.
9. Rape the treasury to reap personal rewards.
10. Do whatever it takes to maintain power.
11. When in doubt, refer to rule #1.

For Democrats:

1. First and foremost, be sweet.
2. No name-calling
3. Give the other party the benefit of the doubt.
4. Don’t vocalize any dissent anywhere but the internet.
5. Oh and for the Speaker of the House, don’t forget to tell the president what a lovely man he is.”

[Breeze54]

138. How true!! LOL!

:rofl:

That's beautiful!
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

You should make that a separate post! lol!

[bridgit]

139. perhaps for the dems, from: Lt-Col John Nagel, co-author US military's revised counter-insurgency...

field manual, while on The Daily Show recently...

Be polite, be professional. Be prepared to kill." delivered as flat as a pancake

[Babsbrain]

143. I just bought his book this week

Sent it to my family member in Iraq.

[bridgit]

145. he seems a straight forward guy, but he is a soldier first...

and very serious, send our best wishes to your family member as we wish them god speed

this cheney/bush chicken-hawk gang can take a flying leap...but i come from a military family and allot of these 'straight forward, very serious' mindsets i've lived with

for you :hi: for your family :hug:

[Blue_Tires]

170. sad but true....nt

[losthills]

137. Not Dumb at all.

It's called "activism."

Betrayus is a bushsucker and a habitual liar.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

140. Damn the MSM - they're so easily manipulated.

n/t

[cali]

142. And good at maniupulating as well n/t

[XOKCowboy]

144. The fact that the Repugs are outraged about it just shows that it's true

I'm of the opinion that a majority of Americans would have never seen the Moveon ad but now all of America knows about it. I'm also pretty certain that a majority of those who watch it agree with the message.

I put no stock in Repub outrage. If they're outraged about it, it must be the truth.

[RetroLounge]

149. Well, I'm not distracted, so i think you're wrong...

But go ahead and play nice with the Repugs, that's worked so well so far.

RL

[cali]

Do you always judge everything

by whether it's true for you?

I'm not advocating playing nice. I'm advocating playing smart. There's a difference.

[ShortnFiery]

156. Non-violent Protest is NOT pretty and appropriate.

IMO, instead of raising our skirts above our heads and screaming, how about we stop attacking our allys and respect the fact that it's the activists that do the dirty work? That is, they get themselves arrested so that WE (our anti-war cause) may get all the blessed attention.

IMO, you are ungrateful for those who must get their hands dirty (be sent to jail) because you would follow some warped vision of political etiquette.

Newsflash: We, in America, have lost our Fourth Estate to the corporations who comprise the Military Industrial Complex. Therefore, anyone who is willing to draw attention to this illegal and immoral war without violence, is *aces in my book.*

MoveOn.org :yourock:

[cali]

163. LOL!

i honestly find you one of the most amusing people here. You're whistling out of some orifice again.

First of all, an ad is not about non-violent protest. Secondly, although I often find Code Pink's actions somewhat self-defeating, I have no problem with what they did yesterday.

Thirdly, I've gotten my hands dirty. I've been arrested for protesting. I've orgainized large (well, for my tiny area) vigils and informational meetings.

[RetroLounge]

168. and you decide if it's smart based on your opinion.

:shrug:

You keep playing nice and smart.

Let the rest do the heavy lifting.

RL

[cali]

150. self-delete. dupe.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

165. Nice to see that Moveon got their message through and upset the applecart!

struck a huge nerve!

[losthills]

166. Betrayus deserves to be mocked.

Anyone who shows respect for this aw shucks baby killer is a collaborator and deserves to be mocked as wel...

[Forkboy]

167. I'm starting to think that the stupid distraction was voting for Democrats in '06.

So far that's turned out to be dumb. Just dumb.

[HughMoran]

171. Perhaps you may want to move over to Freeperville

Democratic Underground kind of has a mission to support Democrats ya know :D

[Politicub]

169. Sister Souljah

My opinion is that the Move On ad is being used by some dems to give themselves a Sister Souljah moment, a la Clinton as he was running for president. They can be viewed as being more mainstream by publicly denouncing the ad.

As for me, I agree with the ad, and see the controversy as being more of a Fox News channel push, than something that most people care about.

Even talking point republicans like George Will admit that the surge is a failure per the measures of progress promoted by George W. Bush months ago in his national address.

[HughMoran]

172. Ingenius!

I think it was an ingenius ad - really distracted the Republicans off their message - absolutely fabulous!

[Beelzebud]

173. People like you buying in to the right-wing meme was a stupid distraction...

[populistdriven]

177. thanks! you couldn't have stated it more succinctly!