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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-10-07 08:37 AM
Original message
Democrats Question General Petraeus' Credibility, Integrity
Democrats Question General Petraeus' Credibility, Integrity
By Susan Jones
CNSNews.com Senior Editor
September 10, 2007

(CNSNews.com) - Democrats are questioning the integrity of Gen. David Petraeus, the top U.S. military commander in Iraq, hoping to discredit in advance anything he will tell Congress on Monday and Tuesday, when he delivers his progress report on Iraq.

On Monday, Moveon.org ran an ad in the New York Times asking, "General Petraeus or General Betray Us?"

The anti-war, anti-Bush group accused the general of "cooking the books for the White House" by giving an overly optimistic assessment of the situation on the ground. It describes Petraeus as a "military man constantly at war with the facts."

Speaking on Fox News Sunday, Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) said she doesn't know what General Petraeus will say. "But I don't think he's an independent evaluator," Feinstein said, suggesting -- as other Democrats have done -- that he's taking his cue from the White House.

more...

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/viewstory.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200709/NAT20070910b.html
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The Count Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-10-07 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
1. If only....I have heard this "yes" man beatified by all democrats so far
The title is deceitful
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-10-07 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. they certainly have. St. Betrayus is in line right after mother theresa.
Let's see, Brilliant, successful, wrote the book on insurgency (then promptly ignored it) a great leader, a thinking man's soldier, while he does one handed pushups, the man who gets the job done, the perfect man in the perfect place, a great american general, the most talented general in our army, etc. etc. etc.

Except he got the insurgency wrong in his PR letters in 2004. He controlled the arming of the Iraqi military and promptly lost 100,000 arms. He wrongly claimed he had proof that he captured mobile chemical factories. And he is getting it wrong in reading this White House script.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-10-07 08:44 AM
Response to Original message
2. Well, they're not going to outright call him a liar. It's enough for me if they
cast a little doubt on his objectivity--that's fair, without totally besmirching and discrediting the man. Overreach, and you get a backlash.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-10-07 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. He's a proven liar. Remember his said 'we have found the
mobile WMD labs' or words to that effect. So I want to know what character or integrity General Overbite has left.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-10-07 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. LOL! Yes, he's made some dubious statements in the past--I think
it was 2004 when he was declaring success against the insurgency--how'd THAT turn out? I'm just saying I don't think the Dems should lay it on too thick, because the public probably doesn't think THEY are very credible either--look at approval ratings for Congress.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-10-07 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. The Congressional dem have the same relationship to
credibility as I do to British royalty.

None.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-10-07 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Is it really overreaching to call him a liar?
Here's the exact quote from Patreaus in 2003. It strikes me as being disingenuous, to say the very least, unless someone can show that he subsequently went out of his way to correct the misinformation (disinformation ?) he had spread: http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/2003/05/iraq-030513-usia01.htm

"Petraeus said he spoke with experts May 13, and they have a "reasonable degree of certainty that this is in fact a mobile
biological agent production trailer."


So, the General is smart enough to hedge a statement to cover his ass if later the deception is found out. He would make a good politician, which is exactly what he is..



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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-10-07 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. If he had integrity, he would have corrected that claim
I hope someone asks him to "clarify" that statement.

But I ain't holding my breath.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-10-07 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. It depends what the 'experts' said and how he evaluated their
expertise, doesn't it?
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-10-07 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. It's not so much what he said that day, as what he did or didn't say in the following weeks and
months. If he made a good-faith effort to publicly correct the record, then his initial statement can be considered a mistake. Lots of them get made, and his mistatement perhaps forgivable. But, if he didn't, he's part of the most serious fraud in U.S. history.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-10-07 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Look who else was part of this operation - Steve Cambone, Rummy's "hatchet man"
"The experts have been through it. And they have not found another
plausible use for it," Cambone said. "So while some of the equipment
on the trailer could have been for purposes other than biological
weapons agent production, U.S. and U.K. tactical experts have
concluded that the unit does not appear to perform any function beyond
... the production of biological agents.''
U.S. intelligence officials have said they believe Iraq had 18 mobile
chemical and biological laboratories, but finding them will be a
laborious process. Cambone said that, for example, U.S. troops found
an Iraqi fighter jet that had been literally buried in the desert to
hide it from coalition troops, an indication of Iraq's extensive
efforts at deception.
(Distributed by the Bureau of International Information Programs, U.S.
Department of State. Web site: http://usinfo.state.gov)
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-10-07 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Cheney repeated Patreaus' initial claim despite DIA finding that trailers weren't biolabs
In late May, 2003, the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) concluded that the trailers were not biolabs. That report was circulated, and then classified, and was not released until October 2004, when it was published as part of the final report of the Iraq Survey Group. During that time, Dick Cheney, George Tenet, Steven Cambone, and others continued to assert that the trailers were proof that Iraq was developing biological weapons. That disinformation had originally been provided by "Curveball", an Iraqi defector tied closely to Ahmad Chalabi's INC organization.


]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/11/AR2006041101888.html
Lacking Biolabs, Trailers Carried Case for War
Administration Pushed Notion of Banned Iraqi Weapons Despite Evidence to Contrary

By Joby Warrick
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, April 12, 2006; A01



On May 29, 2003, 50 days after the fall of Baghdad, President Bush proclaimed a fresh victory for his administration in Iraq: Two small trailers captured by U.S. and Kurdish troops had turned out to be long-sought mobile "biological laboratories." He declared, "We have found the weapons of mass destruction."

The claim, repeated by top administration officials for months afterward, was hailed at the time as a vindication of the decision to go to war. But even as Bush spoke, U.S. intelligence officials possessed powerful evidence that it was not true.

A secret fact-finding mission to Iraq -- not made public until now -- had already concluded that the trailers had nothing to do with biological weapons. Leaders of the Pentagon-sponsored mission transmitted their unanimous findings to Washington in a field report on May 27, 2003, two days before the president's statement.

The three-page field report and a 122-page final report three weeks later were stamped "secret" and shelved. Meanwhile, for nearly a year, administration and intelligence officials continued to publicly assert that the trailers were weapons factories.

The authors of the reports were nine U.S. and British civilian experts -- scientists and engineers with extensive experience in all the technical fields involved in making bioweapons -- who were dispatched to Baghdad by the Defense Intelligence Agency for an analysis of the trailers. Their actions and findings were described to a Washington Post reporter in interviews with six government officials and weapons experts who participated in the mission or had direct knowledge of it.

None would consent to being identified by name because of fear that their jobs would be jeopardized. Their accounts were verified by other current and former government officials knowledgeable about the mission. The contents of the final report, "Final Technical Engineering Exploitation Report on Iraqi Suspected Biological Weapons-Associated Trailers," remain classified. But interviews reveal that the technical team was unequivocal in its conclusion that the trailers were not intended to manufacture biological weapons. Those interviewed took care not to discuss the classified portions of their work.

"There was no connection to anything biological," said one expert who studied the trailers. Another recalled an epithet that came to be associated with the trailers: "the biggest sand toilets in the world."

Primary Piece of Evidence

The story of the technical team and its reports adds a new dimension to the debate over the U.S. government's handling of intelligence related to banned Iraqi weapons programs. The trailers -- along with aluminum tubes acquired by Iraq for what was claimed to be a nuclear weapons program -- were primary pieces of evidence offered by the Bush administration before the war to support its contention that Iraq was making weapons of mass destruction.

Intelligence officials and the White House have repeatedly denied allegations that intelligence was hyped or manipulated in the run-up to the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in March 2003. But officials familiar with the technical team's reports are questioning anew whether intelligence agencies played down or dismissed postwar evidence that contradicted the administration's public views about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. Last year, a presidential commission on intelligence failures criticized U.S. spy agencies for discounting evidence that contradicted the official line about banned weapons in Iraq, both before and after the invasion.

Spokesmen for the CIA and the Defense Intelligence Agency declined to comment on the specific findings of the technical report because it remains classified. A spokesman for the DIA asserted that the team's findings were neither ignored nor suppressed, but were incorporated in the work of the Iraqi Survey Group, which led the official search for Iraqi weapons of mass destruction. The survey group's final report in September 2004 -- 15 months after the technical report was written -- said the trailers were "impractical" for biological weapons production and were "almost certainly intended" for manufacturing hydrogen for weather balloons.

"Whether the information was offered to others in the political realm I cannot say," said the DIA official, who spoke on the condition that he not be identified.

Intelligence analysts involved in high-level discussions about the trailers noted that the technical team was among several groups that analyzed the suspected mobile labs throughout the spring and summer of 2003. Two teams of military experts who viewed the trailers soon after their discovery concluded that the facilities were weapons labs, a finding that strongly influenced views of intelligence officials in Washington, the analysts said. "It was hotly debated, and there were experts making arguments on both sides," said one former senior official who spoke on the condition that he not be identified.

The technical team's findings had no apparent impact on the intelligence agencies' public statements on the trailers. A day after the team's report was transmitted to Washington -- May 28, 2003 -- the CIA publicly released its first formal assessment of the trailers, reflecting the views of its Washington analysts. That white paper, which also bore the DIA seal, contended that U.S. officials were "confident" that the trailers were used for "mobile biological weapons production."

Throughout the summer and fall of 2003, the trailers became simply "mobile biological laboratories" in speeches and press statements by administration officials. In late June, Secretary of State Colin L. Powell declared that the "confidence level is increasing" that the trailers were intended for biowarfare. In September, Vice President Cheney pronounced the trailers to be "mobile biological facilities," and said they could have been used to produce anthrax or smallpox.

By autumn, leaders of the Iraqi Survey Group were publicly expressing doubts about the trailers in news reports. David Kay, the group's first leader, told Congress on Oct. 2 that he had found no banned weapons in Iraq and was unable to verify the claim that the disputed trailers were weapons labs. Still, as late as February 2004, then-CIA Director George J. Tenet continued to assert that the mobile-labs theory remained plausible. Although there was "no consensus" among intelligence officials, the trailers "could be made to work" as weapons labs, he said in a speech Feb. 5.

Tenet, now a faculty member at Georgetown's Edmund A. Walsh School of Foreign Service, declined to comment for this story.

Kay, in an interview, said senior CIA officials had advised him upon accepting the survey group's leadership in June 2003 that some experts in the DIA were "backsliding" on whether the trailers were weapons labs. But Kay said he was not apprised of the technical team's findings until late 2003, near the end of his time as the group's leader.

"If I had known that we had such a team in Iraq," Kay said, "I would certainly have given their findings more weight."

A Defector's Tales


A Defector's Tales



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Even before the trailers were seized in spring 2003, the mobile labs had achieved mythic stature. As early as the mid-1990s, weapons inspectors from the United Nations chased phantom mobile labs that were said to be mounted on trucks or rail cars, churning out tons of anthrax by night and moving to new locations each day. No such labs were found, but many officials believed the stories, thanks in large part to elaborate tales told by Iraqi defectors.

The CIA's star informant, an Iraqi with the code name Curveball, was a self-proclaimed chemical engineer who defected to Germany in 1999 and requested asylum. For four years, the Baghdad native passed secrets about alleged Iraqi banned weapons to the CIA indirectly, through Germany's intelligence service. Curveball provided descriptions of mobile labs and said he had supervised work in one of them. He even described a catastrophic 1998 accident in one lab that left 12 Iraqis dead.

Curveball's detailed descriptions -- which were officially discredited in 2004 -- helped CIA artists create color diagrams of the labs, which Powell later used to argue the case for military intervention in Iraq before the U.N. Security Council.

"We have firsthand descriptions of biological weapons factories on wheels and on rails," Powell said in the Feb. 5, 2003, speech. Thanks to those descriptions, he said, "We know what the fermenters look like. We know what the tanks, pumps, compressors and other parts look like."


Who was curveball, and why was he given credibility? http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=5423

He was, to begin with, the brother of one of Chalabi's top lieutenants. He was also an alcoholic. Worse, we did not have direct access to him: the one American who had ever met him had already warned that he was, at best, unreliable. The response to these concerns came from the deputy director of the CIA's Iraqi weapons of mass destruction task force in the form of an e-mail message dated Feb. 4, 2003:

"As I said last night, let's keep in mind the fact that this war's going to happen regardless of what Curveball said or didn't say, and the powers that be probably aren't terribly interested in whether Curveball knows what he's talking about."

How did Curveball manage to pitch us such a load of malarkey and get it past the intelligence community's defenses, undetected and unchallenged? Well, it seems its veracity was challenged, according to the WMD report:

"With respect to Curveball – the primary source of our intelligence on Iraq's BW program – the Defense HUMINT Service disclaimed any responsibility for validating the asset, arguing that credibility determinations were for analysts and that the collectors were merely 'conduits' for the reporting.

"This abdication of operational responsibility represented a serious failure in tradecraft.

"Although lack of direct physical access to the source made vetting and validating Curveball more difficult, it did not make it impossible. While Defense HUMINT neglected its validation responsibilities, elements of the CIA's D O understood the necessity of validating Curveball's information and made efforts to do so; indeed, they found indications that caused them to have doubts about Curveball's reliability. The system nonetheless 'broke down' because of analysts' strong conviction about the truth of Curveball's information and because the DO's concerns were not heard outside the DO."

The system did not just break down all by itself: somebody sabotaged it, and that is pretty clearly the "analysts" who fed on the lies concocted by Chalabi & Co. The INC was being actively promoted by the neoconservatives within and around this administration. Chalabi's enablers and protectors were concentrated primarily in the office of the vice president and the various neocon thinktanks that provided the Pentagon with scores of contractors and "consultants."


And, finally, who were the CIA DO officers who were warning about Curveball's information?

One of them was a program manager named Valerie Plame.


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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-10-07 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. P.S. - And why was the DIA and CIA unable to verify Curveball's claims about mobile labs?
Edited on Mon Sep-10-07 02:21 PM by leveymg
The Robb-Silberman Commission found: http://www.wmd.gov/report/report.html#chapter1

Biological Warfare Finding 1

The DIA's Defense HUMINT Service's failure even to attempt to validate Curveball's reporting was a major failure in operational tradecraft.

The problems with the Intelligence Community's performance on Curveball began almost immediately after the source first became known to the U.S. government in early 2000. As noted above, Curveball was not a source who worked directly with the United States; rather, the Intelligence Community obtained information about Curveball through a foreign service. The foreign service would not provide the United States with direct access to Curveball, claiming that Curveball would refuse to speak to Americans. 274 Instead, the foreign intelligence service debriefed Curveball and passed the debriefing information to DIA's Defense HUMINT Service, the human intelligence collection agency of the Department of Defense.


And, which foreign intelligence service might they be alluding to here? According to the Washington Post of May 21, 2005: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/21/AR2005052100474_pf.html

Similarly, the president's intelligence commission, chaired by former appellate judge Laurence H. Silberman and former senator Charles S. Robb (D-Va.), disclosed that senior intelligence officials had serious questions about "Curveball," the code name for an Iraqi informant who provided the key information on Hussein's alleged mobile biological facilities.

The CIA clandestine service's European division chief had met in 2002 with a German intelligence officer whose service was handling Curveball. The German said his service "was not sure whether Curveball was actually telling the truth," according to the commission report. When it appeared that Curveball's material would be in Bush's State of the Union speech, the CIA Berlin station chief was asked to get the Germans to allow him to question Curveball directly.

On the day before the president's speech, the Berlin station chief warned about using Curveball's information on the mobile biological units in Bush's speech. The station chief warned that the German intelligence service considered Curveball "problematical" and said its officers had been unable to confirm his assertions. The station chief recommended that CIA headquarters give "serious consideration" before using that unverified information, according to the commission report.

The next day, Bush told the world: "We know that Iraq, in the late 1990s, had several mobile weapons labs . . . designed to produce germ warfare agents and can be moved from place to a place to evade inspectors." He attributed that information to "three Iraqi defectors."

A week later, Powell said in an address to the United Nations that the information on mobile labs came from four defectors, and he described one as "an eyewitness . . . who supervised one of these facilities" and was at the site when an accident killed 12 technicians.

Within a year, doubts emerged about the truthfulness of all four, and the "eyewitness" turned out to be Curveball, the informant the CIA station chief had red-flagged as unreliable. Curveball was subsequently determined to be a fabricator who had been fired from the Iraqi facility years before the alleged accident, according to the commission and Senate reports.



But, the Commission's conclusions seem to glance over some obvious issues that need to be addressed. If Curveball were "unwilling" to talk to Americans, normal CIA spycraft would have told any trained intelligence officer that there are relatively easy ways to get around that. One, obviously, would be to work more closely with the Germans in questioning that source, and to "look over their shoulders" by verifying the information the source provided. Another would be to find out who Curveball was willing to talk to, and then to make the man believe he was talking to someone other than the CIA. In any case, this does not seem to have been an insurmountable hurdle, if indeed the CIA European Division head and the Chief of Berlin Station had really wanted to verify that information.

In any case, the job of interviewing Curveball should have been tasked to specialists within the Directorate of Operations most familiar with Iraq's WMD program, which would have been Valerie Plame and her colleagues. The reason that wasn't done -- and that task was instead given to certain individuals in the Pentagon is one of the great over-arching questions that still haven't been answered in the fraud that led up to the Iraq invasion.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-10-07 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
5. Patreaus was part of the Iraq WMD deception. If he lied for Bush before, he will again . . .
See, http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1762489

What I want to know is why this part of Patreaus' history has been glossed over. Why have the Dems not pointed this out before?
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-10-07 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. Why haven't the Dems done so many things? I'm getting
really tired of wondering why they're not representing us, or asking the right questions, any questions.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-10-07 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. Amen! Well put.
Edited on Mon Sep-10-07 10:06 AM by ShortnFiery
In Addition: What did General Peaches KNOW about the circumstances of his subordinate, Col. Ted Westhusing's death?!?

http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/story?oid=oid%3A469141

After Westhusing's death, there was a great deal of speculation. Some family members and friends began wondering if he had been murdered. Westhusing was supposed to leave for the U.S. on July 7, yet he killed himself on June 5. Why, they asked, couldn't he stick it out for just one more month? Much of the speculation focused on USIS and the contractors. Did Westhusing have evidence that the contractors wanted to keep quiet? There were conflicting stories from the contractors about how they discovered Westhusing's body. One manager said that the first time he went to find Westhusing after lunch on June 5, the door to Westhusing's room was locked. But on a second visit, he said, he found the door unlocked. Further, one of the first people to find Westhusing in his room, a military contractor, moved Westhusing's pistol from its original position, claiming that he had done so for safety reasons. But that person was never checked for gunpowder residue.

While there were some odd details about his death, the Army's investigation quickly concluded that it was a suicide. An Army psychologist who looked into Westhusing's case concluded that despite his superior intellect, his ability to accept the fact that some Americans were only in Iraq for the money was "surprisingly limited. He could not shift his mindset from the military notion of completing a mission irrespective of cost, nor could he change his belief that doing the right thing because it was the right thing to do should be the sole motivator for businesses."

Twelve days after Westhusing's body was found, Army investigators talked with Michelle Westhusing. She told them that the suicide note found near her husband's body matched "almost verbatim" the discussions she had had with him and that the handwriting matched his. She said that Westhusing had "lost faith in his commanders" and that he "did not trust the Iraqis as far as he could spit." Asked by investigators if there was anything else she wanted to add, she replied, "The one thing I really wish is you guys to go to everyone listed in that letter and speak with them. I think Ted gave his life to let everyone know what was going on. They need to get to the bottom of it and hope all these bad things get cleaned up." It appears that Michelle Westhusing didn't get her wish.
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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-10-07 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
13. Remember, this is CNS--Crackpot News Service
Hence the whiny headline.
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