Air Force or civilain pilots QUESTION: Is this normal procedure?

[seemslikeadream]

I read this somewhere else:


The crew, and at the very least the pilots had to know what was on board. Every pilot, whether civilian or military always does a "walk around" (the plane), to make sure everything looks kosher, etc. Plus, they have manifests and if they were transporting anything on the inside of the plane, it would be well known in advance. This is NOT normal protocol.

[Rick Myers]

1. The air crew KNEW the missiles were under the wings, but

they were under the impression that there were NO warheads inside the missiles. However, there should have been some sort of sticker applied to the missile indicating the warhead removed. As I said before, this would have NEVER happened when I served. Two man rule, everything checked TWICE.

[TwilightGardener]

5. My husband used to be a munitions guy (though not with nukes), and

he said there's a whole lot of people who had to fuck up (or at least trust each other and not check the others' work, which is more likely) to make this happen.

[Richard Steele]

7. I followed that part of the story, but was wondering...

Is that "normal" procedure for transporting a disabled weapon?

If they were simply delivering missiles without warheads to
another base, why would they need to mount them in firing
position on a long-range bomber? Wouldn't it make more sense
to just put them on a truck, or in the hold of a cargo plane?

Am I missing something here?

[Rick Myers]

14. I agree there is something odd about using a B-52 to move 5 'retired' weapons

But it's much easier to mount them on the pylons than rack them into the bomb bay. But, using a B-52 as a FedEx truck seems VERY ODD! Of course, the plane may have been heading to Barksdale anyway, so???

[Ready4Change]

15. Training, most likely.

Any chance to get in free training is a boon, I take it. Plus, the external pylons are designed to carry that specific load. Carrying internally would require special pallets and packing.

And trucking vehicles designed for flight can be surprisingly hard on them. (Bump shocks on the road are harsher than most bumps felt in the air. Aircraft improperly braced for transport have been know to be shattered when transported over roads.)

So, carrying these on the pylons isn't to unusual.

I'm far more concerned that the original AP report said there were 6 warheads, but later reports said 5. Corrections for accuracy are commendable. But other possibilties worry me.

[DianaForRussFeingold]

9. Thank you for your service!

:hug: When did you serve? All the really great generals seem to be discharged or retired. Now we have General Petrayus who seems to be censored... IMO, We really need General Wes Clark to make it right again! I would like to know how you feel, since you've served under better leadership? :patriot:

[Rick Myers]

20. I'm not THAT Rick Myers, you know the JCS moran, but...

I served from 1975-1983. I served at various bases, some very remote, as a detachment, meaning I reported to the base command for certain things, and up to a major command for others. I was a dual AFSC, having two jobs, one of which was to participate in simulations, or 'wargames.' I was ferreted out in tech school as someone that played wargames since age 13 and taught 'game theory.' One of the scenarios we ran involved a 'stolen' nuke and hostages, including the POTUS. We had written orders involving such a situation, and the base commander followed orders... And, just 'wargaming' a situation.

I think the WORLD of General Clark.

I think Peter Pace was simply a parrot, but what do you want, he's a Marine. (kidding!)

It was kinda funny to hear General Richard Myers talked about for several years!!!

[deadmessengers]

2. Yes.

Every pilot is responsible for doing a preflight inspection of his/her aircraft prior to starting the engines.

(I am not a pilot, but did take a number of flight lessons including how to do a preflight inspection)

The "this is not normal protocol" part I don't quite understand, but everything up to that point is true to the best of my knowledge.

[TwilightGardener]

4. Somebody on NBC made the point that the pilot should have noticed

a weight difference with the warheads on, but I'm not sure how or when the aircrew calculates the weight.

[Rick Myers]

6. The warheads we speak of are fairly small

12" in diameter, about 30" in length. The weight difference on a BUFF (B-52) would be minimal, since they were pretty loaded-up on fuel.

[Xithras]

8. Not hardly.

A few thousand poounds of warheads between the missles, on a 185,000 lb jet? There's no way the pilot would have noticed the weight difference.

[Rick Myers]

11. I just checked, each warhead weighed only 290 lbs

Times 5 give you 1450 pounds. With a fueled B-52, that's not much weight to notice.

[Redstone]

3. What you read was correct. Somebody effed up BIG time.

Redstone

[seemslikeadream]

10. So this plane was suppose to carry dud cruise missles ??

another comment:


Again they should have been taken off the missles before the plane left .. So this plane was suppose to carry dud cruise missles ???? For what reason !!! They needed beheaded cruise missles in Louisiana for Gumbo night.

[Rick Myers]

13. They were ferrying the missiles to be 'decommissioned'

Seems like an odd way to ship 5 old cruise missiles.

[Ezlivin]

37. It's particularly odd since Barksdale is a staging area for the Middle East

And Barksdale is not where you send nuclear weapons for decommissioning. Barksdale is a heavy bomber base and the conversion or elimination facilities are at Davis-Monthan Air Force Base in Arizona and the Oasis Complex in Utah.

If the missiles were being taken to Barksdale for dismantling, why are they flying them in essentially a combat configuration on a B-52? They should have trucked them in or flew them on a C-5 or C-17.

[Xithras]

12. No, your understanding is wrong.

As others mentioned, the crew knew the weapons were onboard, and they were SUPPOSED to be onboard, but the warheads should have been removed. The crew is NOT authorized to open the bombs up and check either.

I heard it mentioned that the missiles should have been tagged to indicate their warhead status, but I haven't yet heard what the tags were. It's possible that the missiles were tagged as inert when they weren't, and it's also possible that they were tagged as active and nobody noticed. That particular detail hasn't come out yet.

If the missiles WERE tagged as active and the manifest said they should be inert, then the flight crew should have caught it. According to my MIL (AF until retirement), most pilots simply trust that the ground crew has loaded the proper weapons onboard. When they do their walkaround, they're usually looking for loose or mismounted weapons, and don't typically verify the types of weapons themselves.

[DianaForRussFeingold]

17. This is scary!

:scared: :hide:

[madmom]

31. LOL....I love this , Twilight Zone was one of my favorites as a kid.

[me b zola]

27. The tips of the missles are color coded

Anyone authorized to work with or around mutions would have known at a glance that these were not inert weapons.

[Xithras]

36. Not exactly.

All bombs and missiles have color codes to indicate everything from the weapon type (guided or unguided) to internal warhead type, etc. Intert training missiles or bombs would have had a special color code to designate them as such, but these were NOT training weapons. These were real, genuine nuclear weapons that were to have had their warheads removed. As actual weapons, it would have been normal for them to carry color markings designating them as nuclear.

Despite its name as a war"head", the weapons payload is actually contained further back in the body of American cruise missiles. AFAIK, there would have been no way for the flight crew to check for the presence of the warhead without physically opening them up. Tampering with a nuclear missile would not only expose the flight crew to radiation, but it would probably also earn them a discharge or a stay in Leavenworth.

I stand by my assertion that the people responsible for this fuckup were on the ground. The odds of the flight crew having ANYTHING to do with this are small.

[Rick Myers]

16. I'll tell what this story REALLY means:

Five nuclear weapons, with a yield of 5 to 150 kilotons EACH were COMPLETELY OUTSIDE the security PROTOCOLS designed to protect them for over 4 hours, load time and the flight. While there were in the custody of AF personnel, they WERE what would be considered "BROKEN ARROWS." AND NO ONE KNEW ABOUT IT!!!

This will make you feel safer:

Since 1950, there have been 32 nuclear weapon accidents, known as "Broken Arrows." A Broken Arrow is defined as an unexpected event involving nuclear weapons that result in the accidental launching, firing, detonating, theft or loss of the weapon. To date, six nuclear weapons have been lost and never recovered.

(snip)

http://www.atomicarchive.com/Almanac/Brokenarrows.shtml

[seemslikeadream]

18. COMPLETELY OUTSIDE the security PROTOCOLS FOR 4 HOURS!!!

:scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:

[jean]

28. A handy, timely Broken Arrow event occurring on American soil would provide

cheney/bush with their "reason" to attack Iran.

[Vickers]

29. I agree with you in principle, but I must point out that the underside

of a B-52 is (typically) a very secure place to be. Access is heavily restricted as a day-to-day protocol.

While these munitions weren't accorded the security required of nuclear material, they also weren't (to belabor the point) just laying on the side of the road or something.

But still, several heads should roll on this fuck-up.

(FTR: I am also a USAF vet :toast:)

[seemslikeadream]

19. Thoughts on this?

Also, you don't ship inert weapons for decommissioning on the wing or in the bomb bay. The 'live' nukes are loaded in tractor trailers. A federal marshal rides in the cab with full auto M-16. Other marshals escort the shipment in armored suburbans. They are not escorted on public roads by military units.

Don't forget the special "changes" Bush and Cheney have made to our nuclear arsenal. It is no longer in the control of the UC Board of Regents, it is now in the hands of the Carlyle Group and Bechtel. Also the only covert operation that was tracking nuclear and dual-use materials globally was shut down by them. They actually could sneak nukes out of our arsenal and into some cities without anyone outside of their personal co-conspirator base knowing.

[Rick Myers]

21. And, the ONLY folks capable of DETONATING these devices is the Administration

Not to go into tin-foil land, but the NEST people have a little silver box to operate that particular model of weapon.

NEST=Nuclear Emergency Search Team (report to Dept of Energy)

[seemslikeadream]

22. ah, my reputation precedes me?

;)

[Rick Myers]

23. Hey, I LOVE a good conspiracy! And just about anything can be believed now!

There is something fishy about the story on two levels. How do you ship LIVE weapons when they are nukes, and why ship old weapons for 'decommissioning' on the hard points of a functional combat aircraft?

[DianaForRussFeingold]

25. HeeHee, I love your posts unless I am (Home Alone!)

:scared: 'This famous scene from the highly-controversial made for TV movie "The Day After" shows a nuclear attack on a major US City, in the midwest.

:tinfoilhat: It's interesting to note that the whole "X-RAY" effects are not only odd, but were cut from the recent airing on the Sci-Fi channel...!The Day After - 1983 " http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2H1E02iMHg&mode=related&search=

[seemslikeadream]

26. Would you like one of my hats?

[DianaForRussFeingold]

24. We have just crossed over into..... The Twilight Zone

:scared: The Day After - :nuke: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbwj5UFIQvg&mode=related&search= :scared:

[Name removed]

32. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ganja Ninja]

30. Besides always being under lock and key and armed guard ...

nuclear weapons are always hooked to alarms that will detect tampering of any kind. They could not be removed from those alarms and loaded on a plane by mistake. The controls are just too tight. It would never and I repeat NEVER happen.

[Supersedeas]

33. the ground crew and the flight team would know--and many many many others

[peacetalksforall]

34. Privitazation of nuclear arsenal. Bechtel. The citizens don't own the bombs?

This means Iranians don't have to take out their revenge on the citizens?

This is probably where the quote above about Bechtel and Carlyle privatizing our nuclear arsenal. I haven't read it all, Carlyle seem to appear in a footnote.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1740822

excerpts:
"Following in the footsteps of Britain, the U.S. nuclear weapons program has been undergoing privatization over the past four years. George Schultz, former CEO of Bechtel and former Secretary of State, helped facilitate that transition. Bechtel is one of the new corporate partners on the management contract for Los Alamos nuclear weapons lab, in partnership with the University of California, the sole unchallenged manager for 61 years.

Two very important contract changes were made in the process of negotiating the new contract, which was awarded to the University and Bechtel in December 2005. Los Alamos and/or Livermore nuclear weapons labs became manufacturing facilities for production of plutonium cores for nuclear weapons."

"The new contract will result in more U.S. government corporate welfare centered around the need for and construction of a new nuclear weapons complex known as &ldquoComplex 2030.&rdquo"

"&ldquoAn odd thing is happening. In late 2007 the National Nuclear Security Administration (NNSA) hopes to start a new nuclear warhead production run, the first in 18 years. The goal is to make about 70 W88 warheads over a three- to four-year period for deployment on submarine-launched ballistic missiles."

"Atmospheric testing

The ruling elite have been carrying out secret nuclear wars for the purpose of depopulation since World War II under the guise of atmospheric testing &ldquofor national security,&rdquo nuclear power &ldquotoo cheap to meter&rdquo and depleted uranium &ldquokinetic energy&rdquo bullets. It seems undeniable now that the decision to move nuclear weapons testing from the Pacific region to the continental United States in the early 1950s had a hidden purpose."

I broke the rule and included five paragraphs.

Also, there is gibberish mixing on the site - I don't know how to convert it.

There are three articles - appears to be different dates. The other links
that follow the one above are:

http://www.sfbayview.com/2007011722/News/Front_Page/From_Hiroshima_to_Iraq_61_years_of_uranium_wars_A_suicidal_genocidal_omnicidal_course.html

http://www.sfbayview.com/20061226198/News/Front_Page/From_Hiroshima_to_Iraq_61_years_of_uranium_wars_A_suicidal_genocidal_omnicidal_course.html

Or go to their home page and access "From Hiroshima to Iraq, 61 years of...." same title for all?

I had no idea that the aresenal did not belong to the citizens.

So Iranians will know who to blame?

I am reeling from this knowledge, if true. Anyone going to contest it? Trolls excluded.

[seemslikeadream]

35. Thanks so very much higher class

:hi: