I don't understand. We say we will leave when the Iraqi's stand up.

[SeattleGirl]

What I wonder is, where in the HELL did we come up with that?

When is it okay to bully another country into a war?

And since when do we demand they "stand up" so we can "stand down"??

Seems nearly every candidate, Repuke and Dem, ignores that, period.

I.

Do.

Not.

Get.

It.

WE invaded THEM.

If I were an Iraqi, Id be saying, "F you, bro."

Maybe that's just me.

But it does seem weird.

[lvx35]

1. No, its really that retarded.

The Iraqis by their own admission don't control their own government institutions, many are controlled by the CIA. So "standing up" means going along and working for these foreign interests, essentially being puppets. So they are running out the clock by being incompetant assholes because they want their country back. Its pretty simple really. Accusing them of "not standing up" is a way to cover up how massively stupid the whole thing is, by trying to convince americans that we are trying to help them they just are gelatinous blobs who won't allow us to help them. Its nonsense.

[SeattleGirl]

2. It's nonsense, that's true.

That was the point of my post: It's nonsense.


Gawd, help me.

[lvx35]

4. I know that was your point

I was saying no, its not just you, its really stupid. Its mind bending in fact. I don't think anybody knows what to make of it. They got to this point where they started to lie in mass to the American people (because Qaeda mighting be hiding in them) and that's when everything went haywire. Now I don't think anybody knows what the truth is.

[Beerboy]

3. Here's what I don't understand:

Why should "Iraq", a wholly artificial nation created by the spoils of the Versailles Treaty of 1919 by the victorious Western belligerents of WW1 be honored by Iraqi 'citizens' today? Almost all of what we know as the area of the Middle East, especially nation-States, is a Western imposed idea on the region, less than 100 years old.
I really don't know to what degree the people living in what we now call Iraq consider themselves citizens of a nation-State devised on a map in France, but I can't help but to think the West has seriously tried to oversell the whole concept.
What we call Iraqis, citizens of "Iraq", is something the British Empire and France devised for their own political and commercial purposes, the people actually living there not so beholden to such Western concepts?
I share your lack of understanding of an answer to your original question.

[SeattleGirl]

5. Oh my gosh, you are so right, Beerboy.

Iraq is NOT a state.

Not really.

And for Bushliter to go in there and declare once again that itIS???

Don't get me started on that.

[Beerboy]

8. Iraq right now is a possible proto-State,

but there is virtually no "government", in the sense that we know it. If the people living in what we call Iraq want to create that, it will be done only with lots of firepower, as throughout history. That will be at the insistence of the commercial interests, only those with the most guns can ensure that for them.

[lvx35]

6. Interesting info

Why should "Iraq", a wholly artificial nation created by the spoils of the Versailles Treaty of 1919 by the victorious Western belligerents of WW1 be honored by Iraqi 'citizens' today?

I suspect people want it to be this way so that "Iran" is not honored by them.

[SeattleGirl]

7. Well, you know I ask in a 'quotatiions' way, right?

Whatever the primary reason (today), this was fucked from the get-go.

Period.

[Beerboy]

9. "Iran" Isn't honored by whom? West or East?

I read it a couple times, wasn't quite sure what exactly you meant.

[lvx35]

10. My understanding of your post was that its strange for Iraqis to "honor" the ...

... concept of Iraq, because it was something artifical that was imposed on them by foreign nations in the past. I was saying that the reason I think they are trying to hold it together is that though the idea of what Iraq is may be weakened, the idea of what Iran is still holds very strong, and if Iraq is dissolved a large part of its shia population and land will probably be absorbed into Iran, which does currently have a strong national identity, due largely to its Shia majority. The US doesn't want this.

[Disturbed]

11. Iraq was held together by Saddam.

Now there is no strong party & a Leader to hold this territory together. Iraq is on the verge of fragmenting into several regions dominated by militias. The US & the UK cannot force the Iraqis to remain on Nation through Military Force, although the Busholini Regime is attempting this Fiasco.

[trof]

12. It's hard to stand up while you're ducking.

I'm just sayin'.

[Disturbed]

13. The Busholini Regime will try to over throw Maliki now

& replace him with Allawi, a brutal, authoritarian in the mold of Saddam.