I am very conflicted about the Craig case

[dsc]

The undercover arrest was one of the chief ways that gays were kept economicly and legally marginalized. As recently as 1997 I had to sign a morality clause that included sodomy which was then against the law. There are literally thousands of gays and lesbians who lost their jobs, children, and freedom upon trumpted up charges based on undercover cases. Often these cases were total lies but the victims pled to save their jobs, or other parts of their lives. I have no idea what the facts of the Craig case are. What I do know is that more than a few innocents have pled to what Craig pled to. If Craig is guilty he deserves, given his record, to suffer the consequences. I just am not all that sure he is guilty.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. Poor, oppressed Larry Craig.

:eyes:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

2. This Is Easy

People should be free to have any kind of sex they want but not in public places...

[MissB]

14. Exactly.

[TahitiNut]

20. What about airplane restrooms and the "Mile High Club"??

:shrug:

Does the door on a restroom stall confer any expectation of privacy?

Are homeless people permitted to have sexual relations?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. I Suspect If You Got Caught Doing It On A Plane You Would Be Arrested...

I guess there would be jurisdictional problems...

If you were to allow homeless people to copulate in public space you would have to extend that right to everybody...

[TahitiNut]

34. So, that'd make such an activity an 'entitlement' and not a 'right,' I guess.

After all, if we can only exercise a right (i.e. enjoy a civil liberty) if we can afford to pay for it, that's not really a 'right,' is it?

I think of the "right to privacy" as creeping toward an entitlement.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

43. Nah

If you got caught having sex in a plane restroom you would be subject to arrest... I just don't know who has jurisdiction...

[Recursion]

53. FAA

FAA regulations while a craft is in flight have been given color of Federal law by Congress for decades now.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

56. Thank You...

I'm 6'2 225...I can barely fit...There would be no room for a partner...

[Recursion]

126. *cough* I joined the mile-high club on a C-130 *cough*

I and a very pretty female Navy lieutenant were heading back to Norfolk. We were the only personnel in the hold of the plane and somehow (*cough*) talk turned the the mile-high club and the utter injustice of fraternization policies. I mean, the Marine Corps and the Navy are separate services so it's not like she could ever be my CO, right?

Can you blame a guy?

[blogslut]

54. A public restroom is public

The public includes children. Surely you're not saying that it's alright for people to perform sex acts on each other in places where children might see them, are you?

[BlackVelvet04]

75. Surely you aren't suggesting

that inviting someone to have sex is a crime? If so, there are a number of guys I could have had jailed while we were in a bar.

[Sparkly]

76. "inviting someone to have sex"

Not when it invades privacy ways that cause complaints.

[BlackVelvet04]

82. Wow......

lots of guys could be in jail if it applied to heterosexual men in bars.

[Sparkly]

96. True

but this isn't about bars -- it's about when people are sitting on toilets, expecting privacy.

[BlackVelvet04]

106. I've had women put their hand under the partition

wiggle their fingers and ask for toilet paper. They invaded my space and privacy, didn't they?

[Sparkly]

108. Oh, come on.

Are you suggesting Craig wiggled his fingers and asked for toilet paper, and this is what the complaints were about?

[BlackVelvet04]

No, I didn't say that.....

damn, can't people read? I suggested that my privacy had been invaded as well.

[Sparkly]

116. okayyyy....

So make a complaint to the police if you want to. :shrug:

[blogslut]

90. No, consensual, adult sex, out of the public eye is not a crime

Having sex in public places, is a crime and frankly damned dangerous behavior.

[TahitiNut]

78. Why of course that's what I'm saying. Sure it is. Gee, it's almost a verbatim quote.

After all, everyone on DU harbors such intentions, right? :sarcasm:

Christ! Talk about twisted shit. :grr: (Gotta love the "Think Of The Children!" paranoia.) :puke:

[blogslut]

87. I'm glad you clarified your stance

However, I don't think that protecting minors from witnessing sexual acts in public is paranoia.

[mondo joe]

67. And to make use of the right to bear arms you have to be able to buy arms.

There is no civil right to have sex in public restrooms.

[Snarkoleptic]

22. On edit, prolly meant consenting adults...right?

[BlackVelvet04]

72. There is nothing to indicate he had sex in the restroom.....

he probably tried to hook up for sex but he didn't actually have sex according to what I read.

[Omphaloskepsis]

88. He paid the dude 20$ so he could suck his dick.

He paid so he could suck cock..

And then the dick had the balls to say he only did it because the guy was black. Yeah, share a restroom with a black male, get scared and offer to suck his dick and give him twenty dollars if he will leave you alone.

[BlackVelvet04]

95. Sorry.....

I was referring to the Craig case as I thought you were. I obviously didn't read carefully or something.

[Omphaloskepsis]

142. Yeah.. I got confused...

It is hard to keep track of all of these..

[uppityperson]

98. That was Robert Allen.

[BlackVelvet04]

109. Thank you.....

people trying to convict Craig for what Allen did.

[Bluebear]

3. "I have a very wide stance when I poop," he said. "I MAY have brushed his foot."

Please.

[WinkyDink]

24. Did Craig know Rosemary Woods?

[mondo joe]

42. "My stance is so wide sometimes I need to put arms around another man's hips just

to stay standing."

[alcibiades_mystery]

4. So it just happened by chance to a guy who's had gay affair rumors

swirling around him for 20 years?

That's rotten luck, for sure.

[Bucky]

15. So the rumors make him guilty?

The cops weren't targeting Larry Craig (far as I know). They were targeting closeted gays.

I agree Craig's sneaky double life left him vulnerable to this arrest. But evidence of his actual crime, as discussed in another thread, is a little less than damning.

[deadmessengers]

37. No, they weren't

<i>They were targeting closeted gays.</i>

No, they were targeting men who have sex in public places. Being closeted does not mean "public sex".

[napi21]

132. Actually I think that's wrong. They were targeting solicitation!

Solicotation charges happen all the time to people who solicite prostitutes no matter where it is.

[alcibiades_mystery]

59. Huh?

Your post makes no sense.

Q: How would they know he was a closeted gay?
Q: Are you suggesting that he was conducting in typical cruising behavior for the purpose of simply meeting, rather than trysting, with somebody?

In any case, it is extremely bad luck for this closeted gay man, who simply wanted to make a new friend by conducting in cruising signals in a men's bathroom, to have been misconstrued on the very thing that he keeps secret!

?????

[dsc]

27. well duh

Closeted gays are the targets of these stings. Often gays would be arrested for looking too long or simply asking to have sex in a non public place.

[alcibiades_mystery]

60. 1) He wasn't "looking too long"

2) I do not believe that Minneapolis was his destination, so the "non-public place" angle strains credulity. Are you suggesting that Craig was cruising this DT to ask him for a rendezvous that they would engage in at some later date?

Listen, I think the laws against things like this are enforced in an extremely discriminatory way. How many times have we seen hetero couple having sex outside "in public" in our popular culture, and we just think "That's hot." Sex in an alley, in the rain. That's hot. Hell, sex in an elevator, baby...living it up as we're going down. The mile high club, right? It's oooooo sooooo dirty (in a good way). But as soon as it's gay (men) in a bathroom, oh, that's outrageous. You even see some of these sentiments on these threads. It's homophobia writ large. As soon as its the one group of people for whom structural discrimination makes designating public spaces for "identification" necessary, oh, hell, let's call the vice squad. I get it. You have no argument from me on that. I think every single DUer should read Lauren Berlant and ichael Warner's great essay "Sex in Public," which would bring new understanding to just about everyone. I'm on your team when it comes to this stuff.

But I'm also trying to be reasonable. The question I'm addressing is not whether these laws should exist, or whether they should be enforced as they are (they shouldn't exist, and the enforcement is a disgrace). The question I'm addressing is whether he was cruising for sex in that bathroom, and I think it's far more reasonable to think that he was.

[Sparkly]

5. Then why did he plead guilty? nt

[Madspirit]

7. He says why in his OP

People often plead when threatened with their jobs and security.
Lee

[Sparkly]

17. Wouldn't the guilty plea jeopardize his job and security? nt

[Madspirit]

19. Kinda obviously it would be to a lesser charge and no need for a trial when you plead...n/t

[Sparkly]

26. I see.... but as a public figure...

wouldn't it be smarter for an innocent man to fight the charges, so his believers could keep believing in him?

[dsc]

29. given the choice between a misdemeanor and a sealed record

vs a public felony trial many gays paid the money and took the plea.

[Sparkly]

35. Sticking with THIS case....

If "interference with privacy and disorderly conduct" is the lesser charge, what would a harsher one have been? A felony?

[DURHAM D]

104. Lewd and lascivious behavior perhaps. Indecency.

Exposure.

Remember - he didn't really need to do anything (solicit or have sex) to receive such a charge brought by over wrought police goons. Happens to gay men every day.

[Sparkly]

115. Those aren't felonies.

I do understand your point, though.

Does it suggest to you that there was more to the incident than has been revealed, whether in his behavior, some evidence, others who could testify, etc., or do you think what's become public is the extent of it?

In other words, would such a plea, reducing the charge, also reduce the information that is revealed? Wouldn't there have to have been more than that to support a charge of indecency or lewd/lascivious behavior? Basically, did the plea work?

Or, do you see it as a trap where there was no evidence of indecency or lewd/lascivious behavior, in which case, why not fight the charge?

[DURHAM D]

125. No. I don't think there is more to reveal.

He was just acting/being gay. Meaning he fits the stereotypic profile. That's enough. He didn't need to do anything that you might think of as illegal behavior in public. Straight men have no fear of what gay men are threatened by every day.

The things you do in a bar or at the grocery store get gay men arrested in a bathroom.

I have noticed so many think there is some sort of rule. There is some sort of thresh hold that has to be crossed. Some proof other than the cop's word. Not true.

About fighting the charge - gay/bisexual men rarely fight these charges. It will ruin a life. Perhaps with a plea it will remain under the radar. Because the police know that men will not fight the charges they don't use the standard rules of proof/evidence.

I had a friend who was arrested on all of the charges I mentioned in my previous comment to you. His only crime - he delivered Burger King take out one afternoon to his boyfriend (a lifeguard) who had to work through lunch. This was all outdoors at a swimming area on a large lake. My friend's big mistake - he had unknowingly parked his car in a lot adjacent to an area of the lake where a lot of cruising and activity was going on. As my friend was walking back to his car after talking to his boy friend for about 10 minutes he was tackled from behind by two policemen (not in uniform) and charged with everything in the book. He spent a couple of years and $7,000 to $8,000 and could not get out of all the charges.

[rzemanfl]

6. I know of a straight guy who was arrested for adjusting his

package while jogging in a park. Unfortunately there was an undercover cop there. Charges were dropped after 5 grand in attorney fees.

[Bucky]

21. I'm sorry, but those joggers are ruining our communities and destroying our families.

Jogging is an abberation, a perversion of sports as God intended them to be played between a home team and a visiting team. People who engage in the Jog Lifestyle do not deserve any "special rights" to adjust themselves in public. God intended only man-on-man sports teams to adjust themselves. That's why the center wears that towel in the back. If your friend wanted to adjust himself during strenuous activity, he should join a football team. Why can't you liberals understand that?

[rzemanfl]

40. He is 5 grand worth of sorry. n/t

[Sparkly]

119. I know one who was given a citation for peeing in a bush.

Indecent exposure, which would make him a sexual offender, as I recall. He went to court and fought it, and won.

[cali]

8. kudos to you for

being fair minded, but Larry Craig is almost certainly a closeted gay. The problem with that is that he's used his power to actually help perpetuate injustice against gays and lesbians. The hypocricy is just a bit much to bear.

[aquart]

9. Republicans want these laws.

It's called being hoist on his own petard.

[Kingshakabobo]

45. Apparently, some progressives on this forum are also happy with these laws.

I have a bit of a problem with the seemingly low hurdle that was crossed before the arrest was made. Even in prostitute/John cases, the police look for an affirmative offer before an arrest is made. The foot tapping and hand waiving are a good start but I would be more comfortable if there was a follow up proposition.

Does that mean I think he wasn't up to no good? Nope - it sure sounds like he was cruising. I just think the police should require more evidence before they break out the handcuffs.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

51. Any Behavior Available To Straight Americans Should Be Available To Gay Americans...

Having public sex is not available to straight Americans either... I admit the "lewd and lascivious laws" can be abused but that's a different matter...

The senator was looking for sex...

[Kingshakabobo]

73. But you just contradicted yourself.

He was "looking." Not "having." He didn't even proposition. The arrest report bothers me in how the cop describes "usual signals." Placing your bags in the front of the stall? As opposed to where? On your head?

I hope you can understand that I'm not defending him or think he WASN'T looking for sex. I think he WAS looking for sex. I just want the police to have more affirmative evidence before they arrest people..........how about waiting for the actual proposition? That was NEXT, wasn't it?

[uppityperson]

130. Thank you.

Getting frustrated elsewhere on DU, nice to read this. Thank you.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

150. He Also Watched The Guy On The Crapper For Two Minutes

I have a right to do my business in a public restroom with the door closed and not have to be concerned that somebody is leering in through the crack...

[shoopnyc]

10. When you represent the people...

...this is what happens.

[Randypiper]

11. I'm confused

I thought money had to be involved for it to be solicitation.

[alcibiades_mystery]

16. It's not a solicitation charge

n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

12. He is a republican who opposes choice and gay marriage, right?

I'm not conflicted one bit.

The tool that makes him go back home to Idaho is the appropriate one.

[mondo joe]

I'm glad I don't feel conflicted about it. This particular person deserves the worst

of whatever he gets from this.

[JTFrog]

13. Pleading guilty would not do this

guy any favors in his job or personal life. Unless he has more to hide that they would dig up and in that case why feel sorry for the guy.

What exactly would be his advantage to pleading guilty if he were innocent in this case?

[dsc]

31. sealed record and misdemeanor vs public case and felony

[Sparkly]

47. What felony?? nt

[SidDithers]

66. Perhaps, but if you're a Republican Senator...

from a conservative state (?), I think you do everything you can to fight even a misdemeanor charge like this one, sealed record or not.

Even a misdemeanor ends his political career.

Sid

[Ghost in the Machine]

74. Good thing he pled guilty and kept this all under wraps so we never found out about it

Oh, wait..... it *is* public, so where's the benefit of the deal? How'd that 'sealed record' work out?

[partylessinOhio]

18. Oh, crap, Craig got his payback for impeaching Clinton for lying about

a sex act. Good riddance! Sex in a restroom or rather an attempt to solicit sex in a restroom. He knew the signals and was caught sending them.

When I go into a restroom (womens) I hope not to be bothered or solicited by some pervert. I'm glad this one got caught bothering men in a restroom. He has no right to act pompous and sit in judgement of others as an elected official.

:thumbsdown:

[WinkyDink]

23. He's a lying weasel Republican pleading GUILTY, and you're not sure?!

[Neecy]

28. I understand what you're saying...

But most of that happened many, many years ago before the gay rights movement began.

My understanding from reading about this is that the bathroom in question is a known cruising spot and that's why the cops were staking it out. Personally, I'd prefer public restrooms in airports not be used for tricking but that's just me.

They knew this guy was a Senator and if they were just busting people for no reason they would have probably let him go. I'm guessing this is a real charge against someone who has worked against our rights for many years, and good riddance.

[DURHAM D]

100. What are you talking about.

The gays rights movement has been going on for over 35 years in my personal experience. However, the laws have not changed. There are a whole bunch of vague laws that are used only (repeat only) to persecute gays. Gay men are arrested every day for just being in the wrong place (they don't need to even talk about sex, or solicit sex, much less have sex in a public place) being gay is enough.

The charges don't need to be based on fact. Gay men plead guilty to these charges out of fear of exposure - plus the very high cost of fighting the charges.

I am astounded at what some people are saying on this thread - this is supposed to be a place where liberals and progressives gather.

[Beausoir]

30. I'm not conflicted in the least. The guy is a pervert.

[SidDithers]

68. He's not a pervert. He's a hypocrite..nt

Sid

[Beausoir]

123. He's both. Soliciting sex in the airport bathroom makes him a pervert.

Don't try to excuse his behavior.

[DURHAM D]

127. Are men who solicit sex (from women) in a bar perverts? eom

[Beausoir]

128. Some are, of course. But this is a toilet. At an airport. I don't see what you are getting at.

Are you trying to compare what this guy did to hitting on a woman at a bar?

Because if you are...that's just a whole different level of weirdness.

[DURHAM D]

131. There is no difference. They were not having sex.

Senator Craig was trying to find a sex partner - just like guys in a bar.

Your homophobia is rather shocking in a place that is supposed to be a home to progressives and liberals.

[Beausoir]

133. You equate perversion with homosexuals. That is YOUR problem, not mine.

This has nothing to do with gay or straight.

This is about a pervert, soliciting sex in a toilet.

[DURHAM D]

135. So perversion to you is about geography.

Not the activity sought or the genders involved?

[Beausoir]

136. I guess you got me on that point. People who solicit sex in airport toilets are perverts.

You don't think so?

Why?

[DURHAM D]

138. Sorry - I mis-posted my response back to you.

See my post # 137.

[DURHAM D]

137. A pervert by definition

is someone who turns away from what is morally right.

Are you in a position to judge what is morally right? I know that I am not.

Isn't that what we hate about those sanctimonious Republicans?

An adult seeking another adult as a sex partner is not something I will judge.

[Beausoir]

140. A pervert by one defintion...

is someone who is trying to get a blow-job in a toilet stall at the MSP airport.

Let the people crap in peace.

[DURHAM D]

141. I see you have reverted.

Oh well - enjoy your life.

[Frank Cannon]

147. Like the classic restroom graffiti said, "This is a teepee...

for you to pee-pee, not a wigwam to beat your tom-tom."

[sandnsea]

32. Senators do not plead guilty to stuff like this

unless they are.

He created the environment that contributes to these scenarios, he can suffer the consequences.

[AlCzervik]

33. I understand your conflicting feelings but---i would bet you anything Craig

has an excellent attorney and if there was no there-there than i really doubt he would plead guilty to anything. What his misdemeanor is exactly i'm not sure, maybe it was harassment along with the lewd.

[rudeboy666]

36. Good luck

In the frenzy to ridicule and expose a republican hypocrite, it seems that many in DU are missing the point i.e. the question over the motivation for undercover operations against certain sexual practices, which oftentimes focuses exclusively on homosexuality.

This is a legitimate issue notwithstanding Mr. Craig's transgressions.

[deadmessengers]

39. I really don't think people are missing the point.

I am just as outraged at the idea of sex in public restrooms by Democrats. If one of ours got caught, I would want nothing less than an immediate resignation. Sex in public is inexcusable, and that's what the Minneapolis PD was investigating.

[mondo joe]

41. My gay opinion is you shouldn't be having or soliciting sex in public restrooms.

That's what craigslist is for.

[dsc]

44. and my point is that I don't know he actually did solicit sex in a restroom

Again, there has been way too much history of entrapment.

[mondo joe]

46. I understand, and I think that's a point worth discussing. I wasn't directing my comment

to you but to another poster, on a different tangent.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

48. There's Lots Of Places Where Gay Men And Women Can Communicate With One Another

It's demeaning to say they have to do it in restrooms...

[mondo joe]

50. The thing is, even if you live in a community with few resources for such contact,

there's nothing about public restrooms that make them a better place to meet or communicate than, let's say, the grocery store or the post office or the swimming pool.

[stillcool]

38. I think it's cause and effect...

if any of these republicans did not spew anit-gay rhetoric in the first place, they wouldn't take so much heat when they find themselves in circumstances which contradict their supposed, and much touted beliefs. Because they are public figures, whose job it is to legislate, and make public policies that effect the rest of us, their actions are more acutely observed...like those that drink green tea, and go wind-surfing.

[bigtree]

49. the police stake out these bathrooms where these activities are taking place

that's a very GOOD thing.

Craig, apparently, was engaged in the same behavior that the officers were there to observe and respond to.

[NashVegas]

52. I Don't Think He's Innocent, At All, BUT

I very much doubt the police had a prosecutable case, had he chosen to fight it.

[JTFrog]

57. The MSNBC article

said that he didn't have an attorney, he pleaded guilty because he just wanted to get it over with quickly.

[DURHAM D]

58. Exactly - but the police know that people will not fight

even when they are innocent. The fight (exposure) can ruin a life.

Craig probably thought this would remain a secret if he plead guilty.

[Sparkly]

61. I just don't see that.

Why would he think this would remain a secret if he plead guilty?

Why would anyone who's innocent think proclaiming their innocence would ruin their life, but pleading guilty would sweep it away?

Why not fight it, UNLESS there's additional evidence that would come out -- such as other people's testimony -- if there were a trial?

[dsc]

65. because upon defending yourself you often have to out yourself

Clearly your orientation would become relevent. Also jail time would lead to a loss of job where a fine and quiet settlement might not. When I taught in MS I certainly would have pled to such a case in a state outside MS to prevent loss of job.

[Sparkly]

69. If there were a harsher charge he feared, and pleaded guilty to this to avoid it,

what kind of charge would that be? Given the behavior described, what offense that warrants jail time could they have charged him with?

He's outed by pleading guilty of privacy invasion and disorderly conduct, isn't he? I would think that if he'd said "absolutely not" it would have left open the possibility of error. What am I missing?

Edited for grammar typo.

[eridani]

145. After he'd flashed his Senate ID in an attempt to pull rank? n/t

[JTFrog]

55. Check out the videos

of the guy pre-emptively claiming his innocence in the 1982 page scandal.

http://www.blogactive.com/

I don't buy the "he might be innocent" crap at all.

[Penndems]

62. Here's an excerpt from The Washington Post's coverage:

<snip>

Craig, who is married and the father of three grown children, is up for re-election in 2008. He did not address his political future.

The story was first reported by the Capitol Hill newspaper Roll Call, which cited a copy of a report by the airport's police division. It said that airport police had been conducting a sting operation inside that men's room because of complaints of sexual activity there.

According to the police report, the undercover officer set up his position in the restroom at noon on June 11. A few minutes later, Craig entered and sat in the stall next to him. Craig began tapping his right foot, touched his right foot to the left foot of the officer in the stall next to him and brushed his hand beneath the partition into the stall next to him. He was then arrested.

While he was interviewed about the incident, according to the police report, Craig gave police a business card showing he was a United States senator. "What do you think about that?" Craig asked the officer, according to the report obtained by Roll Call.

<snip>

Craig gave the officer his Senate business card and asked him, "What do you think about that?" Talk about arrogance - using his status as a Senator representing the people of Idaho to beat a lewd conduct rap!

[youngdem]

63. Uh, there's nothing to be conflicted about

He dropped trou, spread prone and caressed the leg of someone in the stall next to him, uninvited (apparently). Are you of the opinion that should be protected behavior somehow?

Of course not.

There isn't any risk to a non-pervert in public restrooms. Gay or straight, you should be able to take a piss without a felony charge, no problem. Just don't touch the leg of the person next to you while doing number two, or in the case of our Florida perv, don't 'panic' when you see a black man and ask to suck him off for $20 and you will be just fine.

No conflict here. I've been pissing in public restrooms for many years and I haven't even felt the slightest need to proposition the guy standing in the stall next to me.

[BlackVelvet04]

79. Where did you see this.......

"caressed the leg of someone in the stall next to him"

[DemocratSinceBirth]

81. He Started Playing "Footsie" With Him...

eom

[BlackVelvet04]

83. That's a whole lot different than caressing a leg......n/t

[mondo joe]

85. I dunno. On the scale of things, playing footsie is closer to a leg caress than it is to pooping.

That's my experience anyway.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

89. I Can't Believe Some Follks Are Being Willfully Blind...

I'm surprised Craig didn't drop a little note over the stall...

[BlackVelvet04]

93. I don't think anybody is being willfully blind.....

is dropping a note over the stall illegal? Should it be illegal?

And my comment about the leg caressing........I don't like people making shit up. The side of a shoe touching the side of someone else's shoe is NOT caressing a leg.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

97. Sometimes In This Mating Ritual

A person will drop a note over the stall... I once got one that said "I'll suck your ---- until after you ---... I don't know if that's legal or not... I got the Hell out...

[BlackVelvet04]

105. I had a woman proposition me in a bar..........

I was able to politely explain that I wasn't wired that way. She equally politely backed off.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

110. Big Difference

Between sitting on a toilet and having a note dropped over the top of it and being propositioned at a bar... I have been to strg8 bars, tg bars, and gay bars and been propositioned at all three...

That's a lot different than some stranger dropping a note in a public restroom at an airport asking to fellate you while you are trying to take a poop...

[BlackVelvet04]

112. So, if he had propositioned somewhere other than the restroom it would

have been different?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

117. 100%

If he tried to pick up a guy at a bar or a restaurant or a GOP convention I would have no problem...

Restrooms are for peeing and pooping not sex...

[BlackVelvet04]

122. And not for combing hair,

putting on makeup, refreshing lipstick, etc? :-)

I'm not saying what he did was appropriate....I just wonder how it can be illegal to make a nonverbal proposition with no money discussed or changing hands.

[BlackVelvet04]

92. Why not tell the truth in the first place

instead of making shit up?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

94. Who Made What Up

Senator Craig went into a public restroom gazed into a occupied stall through the small slit , saw it occupied, sat in the stall next to it, tapped his feet, rubbed his feet against the feet of the occupant in the stall next then put his hand through the bottom of the other occupant's stall...

Respectfully, a person would have to be a "cherry" to not know what was transpiring...

[BlackVelvet04]

99. Oh dammit it to hell......

read what I wrote. I didn't fucking say he wasn't making an invitation now, did I? I was referring to the fact that "caressing a leg" was inaccurate. I'm not sure he rubbed his feet against the other occupants feet......the cop said the side of his shoe touched the side of his shoe, didn't he? The side of a shoe touching the side of another's shoe is NOT....I REPEAT NOT....the same as CARESSING A LEG.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

101. Your Beef Is With The Other Guy...

I'm no cherry and I think I know what was going on...

[mondo joe]

129. Truth is a good thing.

I can't argue that point.

But I do think playing footsie is a big enough deal on its own.

[youngdem]

86. Rubbed it with his own leg, it turns out. Read it yourself here. (link)

http://www.rollcall.com/issues/1_1/breakingnews/19763-1.html



And perhaps, here's where he got the idea in the first place. This is a Conservative Idaho newsletter, and it has a photo of Mr. Craig and a blurb just below it on airport bathroom sex.
http://www.idahovaluesalliance.com/news.asp?id=481

(credit to TPM for the links)

[BlackVelvet04]

103. I didn't see anything about a leg being rubbed......

????

[youngdem]

107. read closely. He rubbed the policeman's foot with his.

[BlackVelvet04]

114. It didn't say a damn thing about rubbing.........it

said he touched the side of the of the guys foot.

"Craig tapped his toes several times and moves his foot closer to my foot. I moved my foot up and down slowly. While this was occurring, the male in the stall to my right was still present. I could hear several unknown persons in the restroom that appeared to use the restroom for its intended use. The presence of others did not seem to deter Craig as he moved his right foot so that it touched the side of my left foot which was within my stall area,” the report states."

[youngdem]

118. Ok....Fine...You're right. TOTALLY appropriate behavior.

You ok with his jerking off while leering into the man's cubicle while he shit?

Besides, I always touch feet with the cube next to me after rubbing one out. It helps me pee.

:sarcasm:

[BlackVelvet04]

121. Where did you see that he was jerking off?

I didn't say it was appropriate, I said the description was inaccurate. Try not to read shit into what I wrote.

[youngdem]

102. Rubbed it with his own leg, it turns out. Read it yourself here. (link)

http://www.rollcall.com/issues/1_1/breakingnews/19763-1...



And perhaps, here's where he got the idea in the first place. This is a Conservative Idaho newsletter, and it has a photo of Mr. Craig and a blurb just below it on airport bathroom sex.
http://www.idahovaluesalliance.com/news.asp?id=481

[appleannie1]

64. I found this and doubt the charges were trumped up

have been calling on gay Republican representatives, senators, and high-level staffers to stand up and be proud of who they are, to level with voters about the truth, and to let people decide on their politicians based on truth, honesty and openness.

As this message is posted, I have apppeared on the Ed Schultz Show, a nationally syndicated radio program broadcast in more than 100 cities and on Sirius Satellite. On the show I have called on Senator Larry Craig to end his years of hypocrisy by leveling with Idahoans about who he really is. I am also calling upon several prominent Idaho social conservative leaders to ask them how they square their anti-gay positions with their support for this leader.

I have done extensive research into this case, including trips to the Pacific Northwest to meet with men who have say they have physical relations with the Senator. I have also met with a man here in Washington, D.C., who says the same -- and that these incidents occurred in the bathrooms of Union Station. None of these men know each other, or knew that I was talking to others. They all reported similar personal characteristics about the Senator, which lead me to believe, beyond any doubt, that their stories are valid.
http://cut-to-the-chase.blogspot.com/2006/10/idaho-republicans-senator-larry-craig.html

Apparently he had been doing it for years and just approached the wrong person.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

70. Keith Olbermann just mentioned that in the past, Craig denied claims that he was gay. nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

71. This Rumor Is Almost Three Decades Old

eom

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

91. I didn't say it was that particular rumor, perhaps there have been others. All I was doing

was relating what Olbermann said.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

77. I'm sorry......

But I worked in a public park for many years. We never had undercover stings, never had the money or resources to do so, but we used to get complaints three or four times a month of guys propositioning men in the restroom, looking under occupied stalls, playing with themselves in front of adults AND children, going in the woods for oral sex, etc. And that was tame compared to some of the other parks, where guys would pull up to men and just start openly masterbating. I don't think any cop really needs to go looking for it. It's out there.

There is a small subset of people in the homosexual community who have a problem with this. Just as I'm sure there are heterosexual men who would try to get away with wandering into a woman's to proposition them more if it weren't so goddamn obvious, but it's going on and to just pooh-pooh it as some kind of intolerance is an insult.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

80. Gay Americans Should Have The Same Right As Straight Americans

Marrying...

Holding hands in public...

Kissing in public...

When straight couples are allowed to have sex in public spaces that right should be extended to gay couples...

[defendandprotect]

84. Long time suspicions. . . and why restroom sex? Why not a hotel?

Don't know much about gays, except understand that they have been framed and unfairly prosecuted.
But why the restroom sex, anyway? Why not make a contact and then move on to a hotel?

Of course, Craig was seemingly involved or implicated in the 1982 "page scandal"?????

[grasswire]

111. what did Larry Craig have to say about Bill Clinton?

Has Craig been a hypocrit about morality? I won't judge him for wanting to hook up. But by God he engaged in blackmailable behavior, which is a national security issue.

[Bluebear]

120. I'm glad you asked

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1675352&mesg_id=1675352

[alarimer]

113. What a fucking waste of law enforcement's time

Haven't they got better things to do?

[appleannie1]

134. would you want to take your children into a rest room and

have them witness people in the act? I have nothing against sex but it should not be conducted in a public setting.

[Beausoir]

124. Why in the world are people trying to excuse this guy's behavior? DU gets weirder everyday.

If he wants to have sex...he can do it other places than the airport stall.

He pled GUILTY. He admitted it.

[dsc]

146. and history is replete with people who have admitted it

who we know were not guilty.

[Frank Cannon]

148. I chalk it up to attention-seeking behavior

As a straight guy, I don't go cruising the ladies' rooms looking for sex. I would be arrested if I did, and rightfully so. The very same principle applies here.

[ComerPerro]

139. fuck him, this "sting" is the kind of shit Repigs get off on

[UNCLE_Rico]

143. I have a question for you all...

What would you say if he'd been caught actually having these relations in a PRIVATE public restroom. Like the kind they have in SF, where you pay a quarter and get the use of a private bathroom with a locked door.

Or, in a similar vein, they have the 25 cent 'peep show' video arcades in SF where you can also basically pay for a little private room to watch XXX videos in, which are (as one might surmise) extremely popular with patrons of Craig's persuasions.

The former are clearly in the 'public space', but lack the whole 'what about the CHILDREN!!!' argument against them.

Should these private stalls be targeted for such stings?

I don't think such stings are common in the xxx arcades, rather, the owners are required by law to police them, but most do not do so in a particularly strict way (from what I've heard, of course) ... I suspect if stings do happen in these spots, what they are likely 'stinging' are the owners for failing to enforce the laws against, basically, using your own property to allow random adults to convene to have consensual non-paying sex.

What do you think about the private stall situation, and what do you think about the laws that say that arcade owners are not supposed to allow sex to happen on their property, even when it's consenting adults and doesn't involve prostitution?

You think a hetero couple would get busted for having sex in the private (public) bathroom?

Would the cops go after the xxx-arcade owners if the sex happening in their stalls was strictly hetero?

Should they?

I say NO, but I wonder what the save the children crowd has to say about the subject?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

144. If People Go To A Place Like The Power Exchange And Have Public Sex That's Their Right...

I wouldn't even have problems at an adult book store but the police would...

But I draw the line at public restrooms for the general population and that line is impermeable...

[FunkyLeprechaun]

149. I agree with your posts in this thread

I go to the MSP airport all the time and I've never heard about this happening in the airport. However, I've heard rumors of the same thing happening at the College of Arts and Sciences at Boston University, even one that one of the bathrooms was used illegally in a porn movie.

That rumour appalled me, as they are restrooms on university property that any male can use (and the male/female housekeepers clean up as well).

No male should be propositioned in a public place such as a restroom. The bathrooms at MSP are quite large and there are a large number of female cleaners and I feel for those that have to clean up after those "encounters".