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Do I want Couey to die? Yes. Should he be sentenced to death? No.

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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 02:12 PM
Original message
Do I want Couey to die? Yes. Should he be sentenced to death? No.
Edited on Fri Aug-24-07 02:21 PM by lynyrd_skynyrd
Each and every one of us have two sections in our brains. There is the emotional center, and then there is the intellectual center.

The Republican party and Conservatives in general have, over years of being in power in many areas of the country, made the snap emotional responses we all have a matter of public policy. They have done this because the emotional part of our brains is the easily manipulated one, and their corporate masters have ordered them to make certain that the American population bases its vote not on intellectualism, but emotion.

That is how you get the Iraq war contracts, environmental destruction to the benefit of oil companies, tax breaks for the rich, and media consolidation: By pushing anti gay legislation, religious brainwashing, and capital punishment.

I want John Couey to die. I really, really want it. You know who else really, really wants something? My three year old cousin when he sees a pair of golden arches. It's the difference between being a child and being a grown up. What you want is not necessarily what is right as a matter of government policy.

The indisputable fact is that innocent people have been executed, and as long as capital punishment is legal, more innocent people will be murdered by their government. No system is perfect, and the system that kills Couey will be the same system that kills the next innocent. If you support capital punishment (even if you add qualifications about DNA, or anything else), you support the murder of innocent people by the government. You are reacting to your emotions, not your reason.

Stop being played by the Republican party.
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Little Star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. PLEASE, keep on convincing, this...
grandmother of five. I have always been with Project Innocence. I am having a very hard time not delighting for joy at this death penalty!!!! What a sick bastard Cooey is. I cannot seem to convince myself that this "thing" does not deserve the death penalty. If the innocent Jessica was one of my own I would be looking for your support and I can't deny that to Marc and his parents. Now where the hell do I stand on the death penalty?????

Signed 61 and still confused, Little Star
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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. delighting? Everyone in this story is a loser here.
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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. It's OK to WANT it
You can't turn off your emotions. You can, however, recognize that they are only feelings, not reality. You can recognize that your emotions should have no place in government legislation. You can understand that intellectually, you know capital punishment should be abolished, even though you feel that this person ought to die.
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Agreed
:toast::applause:
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Little Star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. Thank You.
These kind of cases really screw with my head. I wonder what the hell is wrong with me when I can feel so strongly, when Louise Woodward was accused, that I could not seem to find (in my heart) her worthy of severe punishment and still be able to feel that someone like Cooey might be deserving the death penalty.

I guess, that in the end, I feel " the death of one innocent person, is not worth the death of all the guilty".

I had a friend, that years ago lost a teenage son. I asked her how she could not push for further investigation. She told me that nothing would bring back Christopher and that was the only real thing she really wanted. I often think of her words at such a tragic time in her life and marvel at what true motherly love she had.

Bless people like Barry Scheck and others like him. They do not give into the emotions I feel today. My feelings are way to dangerous for some innocent people.

I think I have got on my thinking-cap again, Thanks.

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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. Well Put!
"Feelings" are just that. I would love to put Vick in with an angry pit bull. I would love to castrate this child rapist/killer and then slowly kill him. Those are JUST feelings. They have no place in making law. I am 100% against the death penalty.

Lee
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
22. LittleStar, the death penalty is too good for him.
DP proponents want revenge, I get that, but isn't putting him out of his misery the easy way out? Let him fester in his cell and undergo the numerous humiliations he will no doubt suffer for the rest of his miserable life.

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whoneedstickets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
36. Couey deserves death, as have others...
When the cases are iron clad, and the convict is a monster. But the problem with having the DP as an available punishment is that overzealous prosecutors, and tough-on-crime police forces, hold it up as the standard of success. It becomes the goal of the prosecutor who wants to win every case--even the 'difficult' (less than iron clad) cases. And it ends up being unjustly applied to poor and minority dependents who lack good legal council to punch holes in these weaker cases. The potential to execute innocent dependents is an unacceptable side-effect of having the DP available to remove even these devils. I'll instead be content with life without parole and death while incarcerated.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
4. Thank you for this. I survived a murder in my family.
It was brutal, closed casket brutal, and the same man was suspected in 2 other, similar murders in the same town.

I didn't want him killed in my name, it would have made the whole thing worse. I just wanted him locked up so he couldn't do it to anyone else.

I was sixteen.

He eventually died in prison, which was where he belonged. He wasn't murdered in turn in my name, and I've always been grateful for that.

I am against the death penalty because of who I am, not because of who he was.
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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Warpy i had no idea what happened in your family and your last line--brilliant.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. {{{Warpy}}}
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
24. Well said. It's because of who WE are, not who THEY are.
Edited on Fri Aug-24-07 06:03 PM by TahitiNut
When we surrender our integrity and principles to the evil behavior of others, it harms us even more. We must take care to act, not react.
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Nutmegger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
5. Do I want Couey to die? Hell fucking no. Should be be sentenced to death? Hell fucking no.
Edited on Fri Aug-24-07 02:30 PM by Nutmegger
If you really want him to die, then that's your thing I guess. That was not my "gut" reaction. I stand against all forms of violence, and that includes "eye for an eye" based reactions. I.E. revenge killings, "sting him up by the balls", and prison rape.

But a lot of people do react based on that, and that's something that should be kept out of the government.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
9. Nice try
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Please elaborate. -nt
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
11. There is a simple solution to this problem
Just make sure that Couey is easily exposed to the full prison population in the the facility with the most violent inmates.

He'll be finished inside of six months.
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MrSlayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
12. Well I want him to die and he should have been killed on his first molestation offense.
If they would have killed this fucking piece of garbage the first time he got caught that poor kid would still be alive today dancing around to High School Musical. Couey should have been hanged as soon as he confessed or better yet, turned over to the father. Why should this excrement be put in protective custody to live out his life and share his sick fantasies in a circle jerk with the other pedos? I can think of a thousand better ways to spend the tax dollars wasted on giving this guy three hots and a cot.
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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. As long as you understand that your entire post is emotional
Not one little bit of rational thought. I feel the same way as you do. I don't think it, though.
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MrSlayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. It's completely rational.
And it's true. There is no question that had he been executed on his first pedo offense Jessica would still be alive today, none at all. And there is no question that he should pay the ultimate price for his heinous crime. There is absolutely nothing worse than raping, torturing and murdering a child, it's the worst of the worst. People like this can never be cured, never be rehabilitated and if let go will only repeat their offenses. They are completely useless to society, even prison society, and should be put down like rabid animals as soon as possible. Not only should he get the death sentence, it should be carried out within moments of the gavel falling. I fail to see what is irrational about this, it's cut, dried and as obvious as the nose on one's face.
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qdemn7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #18
29. Your post echoes
Exactly my thoughts. I agree completely.
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OnceUponTimeOnTheNet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. The problem is he will be in Protective Custody, Put him in the General population in a big Jail
& He'd be a goner in 48 hours.

This has been a great thread today. The OP has good points that do make sense. But, I'm still for the DP, based on the facts.
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MrSlayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Yes, we are in agreement.
I don't see why someone who is absolutely 100% guilty should get off with PC and a life sentence because innocent people have been put to death in unrelated cases. It makes no sense.
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Protective Custody ain't a picnic.
It's solitary confinement - that's all PC is. If it isn't safe to let an inmate have contact with other inmates (which would be the case with Couey,) he gets put in a cell that's about equivalent to the isolation cells inmates get put in when they're bad inside the joint (being thrown in the "hole".)

So assuming Couey doesn't get a date with the needle, he'll be so isolated as he serves his life sentence that he'll literally go insane.
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MrSlayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Untrue.
PC is where they put all the pedos, convicted cops, snitches and others who need to be away from gen-pop. They have their own separate social and recreation areas where they can intermingle daily. They are not locked down 24/7 in isolation as prisoners are in Marion Federal Penitentiary or the Pelican Bay super-max. They are allowed human contact.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
15. But aren't the anti-DP sentiments of many also based on emotion?
I'm not baiting you, but just asking a question
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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Some may be. Mine aren't.
Edited on Fri Aug-24-07 04:22 PM by lynyrd_skynyrd
While emotion can be used for an anti death penalty position, there are also many intellectual arguments as well. The same can't be said for a pro death penalty stance.

There really isn't an intellectual argument for capital punishment. It's 100% emotional. There are no cold hard facts supporting a pro capital punishment position.

1) Capital punishment is not a deterrent.
2) Innocent people have been killed and will be killed because of capital punishment.

These are indisputable. Number 2, especially, is the deal breaker. There is nothing that can be said or done, ever, that will make #2 untrue. Every system will have its cracks, and innocent people will die.

It's the reason every other civilized nation on the planet has abolished capital punishment. Like usual (and in not only this issue!), the United States is playing catchup.
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #16
27. Logical argument:
Edited on Fri Aug-24-07 06:43 PM by AZBlue
In a country where seniors' benefits and medial care is cut by the government almost daily, where trillions of our dollars are bleeding out of this country and into Halliburton and other Iraq parasites, where we can't even feed all of our non-criminal citizens (including the most innocent of all: children) why should we feed, house, dress, educate and entertain a convicted killer? I know prison's not fun, but it's a better life than many Americans lead. At least prisoners know where their next meal comes from: our tax dollars.

Seems pretty logical to me.

(note: I actually don't support the use of DP in most cases - but this is a very compelling argument to me)
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #16
28. John Stuart Mill begs to differ...
This speech was given before Parliament on April 21, 1868 in opposition to a bill banning capital punishment that had been proposed by Mr. Gilpin.

. . . It would be a great satisfaction to me if I were able to support this Motion. It is always a matter of regret to me to find myself, on a public question, opposed to those who are called--sometimes in the way of honour, and sometimes in what is intended for ridicule--the philanthropists. Of all persons who take part in public affairs, they are those for whom, on the whole, I feel the greatest amount of respect; for their characteristic is, that they devote their time, their labour, and much of their money to objects purely public, with a less admixture of either personal or class selfishness, than any other class of politicians whatever. On almost all the great questions, scarcely any politicians are so steadily and almost uniformly to be found on the side of right; and they seldom err, but by an exaggerated application of some just and highly important principle. On the very subject that is now occupying us we all know what signal service they have rendered. It is through their efforts that our criminal laws--which within my memory hanged people for stealing in a dwelling house to the value of 40s.-laws by virtue of which rows of human beings might be seen suspended in front of Newgate by those who ascended or descended Ludgate Hill--have so greatly relaxed their most revolting and most impolitic ferocity, that aggravated murder is now practically the only crime which is punished with death by any of our lawful tribunals; and we are even now deliberating whether the extreme penalty should be retained in that solitary case. This vast gain, not only to humanity, but to the ends of penal justice, we owe to the philanthropists; and if they are mistaken, as I cannot but think they are, in the present instance, it is only in not perceiving the right time and place for stopping in a career hitherto so eminently beneficial. Sir, there is a point at which, I conceive, that career ought to stop. When there has been brought home to any one, by conclusive evidence, the greatest crime known to the law; and when the attendant circumstances suggest no palliation of the guilt, no hope that the culprit may even yet not be unworthy to live among mankind, nothing to make it probable that the crime was an exception to his general character rather than a consequence of it, then I confess it appears to me that to deprive the criminal of the life of which he has proved himself to be unworthy--solemnly to blot him out from the fellowship of mankind and from the catalogue of the living--is the most appropriate as it is certainly the most impressive, mode in which society can attach to so great a crime the penal consequences which for the security of life it is indispensable to annex to it. I defend this penalty, when confined to atrocious cases, on the very ground on which it is commonly attacked--on that of humanity to the criminal; as beyond comparison the least cruel mode in which it is possible adequately to deter from the crime. If, in our horror of inflicting death, we endeavour to devise some punishment for the living criminal which shall act on the human mind with a deterrent force at all comparable to that of death, we are driven to inflictions less severe indeed in appearance, and therefore less efficacious, but far more cruel in reality. Few, I think, would venture to propose, as a punishment for aggravated murder, less than imprisonment with hard labor for life; that is the fate to which a murderer would be consigned by the mercy which shrinks from putting him to death. But has it been sufficiently considered what sort of a mercy this is, and what kind of life it leaves to him? If, indeed, the punishment is not really inflicted--if it becomes the sham which a few years ago such punishments were rapidly becoming--then, indeed, its adoption would be almost tantamount to giving up the attempt to repress murder altogether. But if it really is what it professes to be, and if it is realized in all its rigour by the popular imagination, as it very probably would not be, but as it must be if it is to be efficacious, it will be so shocking that when the memory of the crime is no longer fresh, there will be almost insuperable difficulty in executing it. What comparison can there really be, in point of severity, between consigning a man to the short pang of a rapid death, and immuring him in a living tomb, there to linger out what may be a long life in the hardest and most monotonous toil, without any of its alleviations or rewards--debarred from all pleasant sights and sounds, and cut off from all earthly hope, except a slight mitigation of bodily restraint, or a small improvement of diet? Yet even such a lot as this, because there is no one moment at which the suffering is of terrifying intensity, and, above all, because it does not contain the element, so imposing to the imagination, of the unknown, is universally reputed a milder punishment than death--stands in all codes as a mitigation of the capital penalty, and is thankfully accepted as such. For it is characteristic of all punishments which depend on duration for their efficacy--all, therefore, which are not corporal or pecuniary--that they are more rigorous than they seem; while it is, on the contrary, one of the strongest recommendations a punishment can have, that it should seem more rigorous than it is; for its practical power depends far less on what it is than on what it seems. There is not, I should think, any human infliction which makes an impression on the imagination so entirely out of proportion to its real severity as the punishment of death. The punishment must be mild indeed which does not add more to the sum of human misery than is necessarily or directly added by the execution of a criminal. As my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr.Gilpin) has himself remarked, the most that human laws can do to anyone in the matter of death is to hasten it; the man would have died at any rate; not so very much later, and on the average, I fear, with a considerably greater amount of bodily suffering. Society is asked, then, to denude itself of an instrument of punishment which, in the grave cases to which alone it is suitable, effects its purposes at a less cost of human suffering than any other; which, while it inspires more terror, is less cruel in actual fact than any punishment that we should think of substituting for it. My hon. Friend says that it does not inspire terror, and that experience proves it to be a failure. But the influence of a punishment is not to be estimated by its effect on hardened criminals. Those whose habitual way of life keeps them, so to speak, at all times within sight of the gallows, do grow to care less about it; as, to compare good things with bad, an old soldier is not much affected by the chance of dying in battle. I can afford to admit all that is often said about the indifference of professional criminals to the gallows. Though of that indifference one-third is probably bravado and another third confidence that they shall have the luck to escape, it is quite probable that the remaining third is real. But the efficacy of a punishment which acts principally through the imagination, is chiefly to be measured by the impression it makes on those who are still innocent; by the horror with which it surrounds the first promptings of guilt; the restraining influence it exercises over the beginning of the thought which, if indulged, would become a temptation; the check which it exerts over the graded declension towards the state--never suddenly attained--in which crime no longer revolts, and punishment no longer terrifies. As for what is called the failure of death punishment, who is able to judge of that? We partly know who those are whom it has not deterred; but who is there who knows whom it has deterred, or how many human beings it has saved who would have lived to be murderers if that awful association had not been thrown round the idea of murder from their earliest infancy? Let us not forget that the most imposing fact loses its power over the imagination if it is made too cheap. When a punishment fit only for the most atrocious crimes is lavished on small offences until human feeling recoils from it, then, indeed, it ceases to intimidate, because it ceases to be believed in. The failure of capital punishment in cases of theft is easily accounted for; the thief did not believe that it would be inflicted. He had learnt by experience that jurors would perjure themselves rather than find him guilty; that Judges would seize any excuse for not sentencing him to death, or for recommending him to mercy; and that if neither jurors nor Judges were merciful, there were still hopes from an authority above both. When things had come to this pass it was high time to give up the vain attempt. When it is impossible to inflict a punishment, or when its infliction becomes a public scandal, the idle threat cannot too soon disappear from the statute book. And in the case of the host of offences which were formerly capital, I heartily rejoice that it did become impracticable to execute the law. If the same state of public feeling comes to exist in the case of murder; if the time comes when jurors refuse to find a murderer guilty; when Judges will not sentence him to death, or will recommend him to mercy; or when, if juries and Judges do not flinch from their duty, Home Secretaries, under pressure of deputations and memorials, shrink from theirs, and the threat becomes, as it became in the other cases, a mere brutum fulmen; then, indeed, it may become necessary to do in this case what has been done in those--to abrogate the penalty. That time may come--my hon. Friend thinks that it has nearly come. I hardly know whether he lamented it or boasted of it; but he and his Friends are entitled to the boast; for if it comes it will be their doing, and they will have gained what I cannot but call a fatal victory, for they will have achieved it by bringing about, if they will forgive me for saying so, an enervation, an effeminancy, in the general mind of the country. For what else than effeminancy is it to be so much more shocked by taking a man's life than by depriving him of all that makes life desirable or valuable? Is death, then, the greatest of all earthly ills? Usque adeone mori miserum est? Is it, indeed, so dreadful a thing to die? Has it not been from of old one chief part of a manly education to make us despise death--teaching us to account it, if an evil at all, by no means high in the list of evils; at all events, as an inevitable one, and to hold, as it were, our lives in our hands, ready to be given or risked at any moment, for a sufficiently worthy object? I am sure that my hon. Friends know all this as well, and have as much of all these feelings as any of the rest of us; possibly more. But I cannot think that this is likely to be the effect of their teaching on the general mind. I cannot think that the cultivating of a peculiar sensitiveness of conscience on this one point, over and above what results from the general cultivation of the moral sentiments, is permanently consistent with assigning in our own minds to the fact of death no more than the degree of relative importance which belongs to it among the other incidents of our humanity. The men of old cared too little about death, and gave their own lives or took those of others with equal recklessness. Our danger is of the opposite kind, lest we should be so much shocked by death, in general and in the abstract, as to care too much about it in individual cases, both those of other people and our own, which call for its being risked. And I am not putting things at the worst, for it is proved by the experience of other countries that horror of the executioner by no means necessarily implies horror of the assassin. The stronghold, as we all know, of hired assassination in the 18th century was Italy; yet it is said that in some of the Italian populations the infliction of death by sentence of law was in the highest degree offensive and revolting to popular feeling. Much has been said of the sanctity of human life, and the absurdity of supposing that we can teach respect for life by ourselves destroying it. But I am surprised at the employment of this argument, for it is one which might be brought against any punishment whatever. It is not human life only, not human life as such, that ought to be sacred to us, but human feelings. The human capacity of suffering is what we should cause to be respected, not the mere capacity of existing. And we may imagine somebody asking how we can teach people not to inflict suffering by ourselves inflicting it? But to this I should answer--all of us would answer--that to deter by suffering from inflicting suffering is not only possible, but the very purpose of penal justice. Does fining a criminal show want of respect for property, or imprisoning him, for personal freedom? Just as unreasonable is it to think that to take the life of a man who has taken that of another is to show want of regard for human life. We show, on the contrary, most emphatically our regard for it, by the adoption of a rule that he who violates that right in another forfeits it for himself, and that while no other crime that he can commit deprives him of his right to live, this shall. There is one argument against capital punishment, even in extreme cases, which I cannot deny to have weight--on which my hon. Friend justly laid great stress, and which never can be entirely got rid of. It is this--that if by an error of justice an innocent person is put to death, the mistake can never be corrected; all compensation, all reparation for the wrong is impossible. This would be indeed a serious objection if these miserable mistakes--among the most tragical occurrences in the whole round of human affairs--could not be made extremely rare. The argument is invincible where the mode of criminal procedure is dangerous to the innocent, or where the Courts of Justice are not trusted. And this probably is the reason why the objection to an irreparable punishment began (as I believe it did) earlier, and is more intense and more widely diffused, in some parts of the Continent of Europe than it is here. There are on the Continent great and enlightened countries, in which the criminal procedure is not so favorable to innocence, does not afford the same security against erroneous conviction, as it does among us; countries where the Courts of Justice seem to think they fail in their duty unless they find somebody guilty; and in their really laudable desire to hunt guilt from its hiding places, expose themselves to a serious danger of condemning the innocent. If our own procedure and Courts of Justice afforded ground for similar apprehension, I should be the first to join in withdrawing the power of inflicting irreparable punishment from such tribunals. But we all know that the defects of our procedure are the very opposite. Our rules of evidence are even too favorable to the prisoner; and juries and Judges carry out the maxim, "It is better that ten guilty should escape than that one innocent person should suffer," not only to the letter, but beyond the letter. Judges are most anxious to point out, and juries to allow for, the barest possibility of the prisoner's innocence. No human judgment is infallible; such sad cases as my hon. Friend cited will sometimes occur; but in so grave a case as that of murder, the accused, in our system, has always the benefit of the merest shadow of a doubt. And this suggests another consideration very germane to the question. The very fact that death punishment is more shocking than any other to the imagination, necessarily renders the Courts of Justice more scrupulous in requiring the fullest evidence of guilt. Even that which is the greatest objection to capital punishment, the impossibility of correcting an error once committed, must make, and does make, juries and Judges more careful in forming their opinion, and more jealous in their scrutiny of the evidence. If the substitution of penal servitude for death in cases of murder should cause any declaration in this conscientious scrupulosity, there would be a great evil to set against the real, but I hope rare, advantage of being able to make reparation to a condemned person who was afterwards discovered to be innocent. In order that the possibility of correction may be kept open wherever the chance of this sad contingency is more than infinitesimal, it is quite right that the Judge should recommend to the Crown a commutation of the sentence, not solely when the proof of guilt is open to the smallest suspicion, but whenever there remains anything unexplained and mysterious in the case, raising a desire for more light, or making it likely that further information may at some future time be obtained. I would also suggest that whenever the sentence is commuted the grounds of the commutation should, in some authentic form, be made known to the public. Thus much I willingly concede to my hon. Friend; but on the question of total abolition I am inclined to hope that the feeling of the country is not with him, and that the limitation of death punishment to the cases referred to in the Bill of last year will be generally considered sufficient. The mania which existed a short time ago for paring down all our punishments seems to have reached its limits, and not before it was time. We were in danger of being left without any effectual punishment, except for small of offences. What was formerly our chief secondary punishment--transportation--before it was abolished, had become almost a reward. Penal servitude, the substitute for it, was becoming, to the classes who were principally subject to it, almost nominal, so comfortable did we make our prisons, and so easy had it become to get quickly out of them. Flogging--a most objectionable punishment in ordinary cases, but a particularly appropriate one for crimes of brutality, especially crimes against women--we would not hear of, except, to be sure, in the case of garotters, for whose peculiar benefit we reestablished it in a hurry, immediately after a Member of Parliament had been garrotted. With this exception, offences, even of an atrocious kind, against the person, as my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Oxford (Mr.Neate) well remarked, not only were, but still are, visited with penalties so ludicrously inadequate, as to be almost an encouragement to the crime. I think, Sir, that in the case of most offences, except those against property, there is more need of strengthening our punishments than of weakening them; and that severer sentences, with an apportionment of them to the different kinds of offences which shall approve itself better than at present to the moral sentiments of the community, are the kind of reform of which our penal system now stands in need. I shall therefore vote against the Amendment.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #16
31. No reply yet...still wading through Mill's "emotional" argument?
Yes, I like to gloat
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Ghost in the Machine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #16
41. I respectfully disagree
"While emotion can be used for an anti death penalty position, there are also many intellectual arguments as well. The same can't be said for a pro death penalty stance."

Intellectually, yes it can. Some people have shown themselves unfit for society. Many have shown a willingness to kill numerous times. Keeping them in prison is a waste of time and money. Jeffrey Dahmer, anyone? Ted Bundy? Charles Manson? How long has he been in prison? Have you heard him speak out from jail? He's still nuts, and says he'd kill again if released. All this time and money has been WASTED on him, as he is in no way rehabilitated.

"There really isn't an intellectual argument for capital punishment. It's 100% emotional. There are no cold hard facts supporting a pro capital punishment position."

See Above

"1) Capital punishment is not a deterrent.
2) Innocent people have been killed and will be killed because of capital punishment.

These are indisputable. Number 2, especially, is the deal breaker. There is nothing that can be said or done, ever, that will make #2 untrue. Every system will have its cracks, and innocent people will die."


1) Life in prison is not a deterrent.
2) Innocent people have been imprisoned and will be imprisoned again because of faulty trials for life in prison.

These are indisputable. Number 2, especially, is the deal breaker. There is nothing that can be said or done, ever, that will make #2 untrue. Every system will have its cracks, and innocent people will be imprisoned.

"It's the reason every other civilized nation on the planet has abolished capital punishment. Like usual (and in not only this issue!), the United States is playing catchup."

Ok, I really have nothing for this one..

:hi:
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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. You lose right here:
Edited on Sat Aug-25-07 11:05 AM by lynyrd_skynyrd
2) Innocent people have been imprisoned and will be imprisoned again because of faulty trials for life in prison.


So life in prison is the same as death? If evidence exonerating an innocent person is ever uncovered, you can't bring him back from the dead.

I really don't know if there is anything more to say. You have nothing. None of the pro capital punishment people have anything. There is no logical counter argument to #2. No matter how numerous the replies in this thread that masquerade as reason while in reality being completely based on fear, anger, and vengeance.

Emotions. Seriously, read some of them.
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Ghost in the Machine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. ahem...
"So life in prison is the same as death? If evidence exonerating an innocent person is ever uncovered, you can't bring him back from the dead."

It might as well be a death sentence to some. Think about someone wrongly accused. They lose their jobs, their families, their reputataions, everything they had. They're locked up, convicted of a crime. Not all of them have wives that stick by them. Some of them wind up killing themselves in prison. Some wind up getting killed.

Now think about the guys that were recently released after 30 something years of false imprisonment. Sure, they may have gotten millions of dollars, but that doesn't give them their life back over the last 30 something years. Nor does it bring back the one who died in prison.

Your premise is intellectually flawed also, and is also based on pure emotion. *You* don't want someone to die. *You* don't agree with the death penalty. That's *your* emotion, and *your* opinion, which you are fully entitled to, just like *I'm* entitled to *my* opinion. This is just one of those things people have to learn to agree to disagree on.

The funniest thing I've read so far was one response on here that disagreed with the death penalty, yet they advocated putting someone in the general population so he could be killed by other inmates. Some compassion, huh?
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. That's a common, yet still strange, mixture of civic-cowardice and classism found...
among many "progressive" anti-death penalty advocates- "...yet they advocated putting someone in the general population so he could be killed by other inmates"
It's simple; they "don't want blood on their hands" or they "don't want killing done in their name", but they are all too happy to let the criminal UNDERCLASS dispatch justice for them. And that is disgusting.
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Ghost in the Machine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Well said, thanks
I personally think it all falls one the ones here have no problem telling us how much more "liberal" or "progressive" they are than us. :eyes:

They have no concept that anyone else can think for themselves and if we don't think *just like them*, then there's something wrong with *us*.
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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. Again, you have nothing
Edited on Sat Aug-25-07 05:08 PM by lynyrd_skynyrd
I probably wasn't very clear in the OP, (because that wasn't really the point, though it is in the subject line), but I do want Couey to die, just like any other decent person among us would want him to die, because he is a piece of scum. But that is an emotional reaction, not a rational one. Just because I want something doesn't make it right, and doesn't make it good government policy. Like I said in the OP - It's the difference between being a child and an adult.

With that said.

My premise has nothing to do with not wanting to kill Couey or other heinous criminals. My premise has to do with the government sectioned murder of the wrongly accused, whose existence to which you have already fully acknowledged.

Why is it so hard for you to admit that you're wrong on this one?

It might as well be a death sentence to some. Think about someone wrongly accused. They lose their jobs, their families, their reputataions, everything they had. They're locked up, convicted of a crime. Not all of them have wives that stick by them. Some of them wind up killing themselves in prison. Some wind up getting killed.


Seriously? So they'd have been better off executed? Is that what you're saying? How can you type that without using a sarcasm tag?

As for the people who said they would want to put them in the general population, that's also a completely emotional reaction. I don't agree with that stance, either.
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Ghost in the Machine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. You really have nothing either
You think an innocent person committing suicide or being savagely beaten to death in prison is an acceptable alternative to an innocent person being executed by mistake?

Yes, I admit the system is flawed and a few have fallen through the cracks,... in both situations. It doesn't make it any more or less right or wrong, it's just a fact of life.

I wouldn't call it an 'acceptable loss' by any means, but living in the reality based world, I know that mistakes are going to be made all the time. We're only human afterall. Humans make mistakes, that's a given, but how many people have been wrongly executed in the last 50 years, as opposed to those who deserved to die.

You may support the prison industrial complex, but I don't. That's called a difference of opinion. You should know by now that people have them. I don't think MY tax dollars should be wasted on housing, feeding, clothing, educating and giving health care to someone who committed cold blooded murder. I think they should be executed. Every one of them. They're a drain on the taxpayer's dollar.

We'll just have to agree to disagree, because you won't change my views, and I won't change yours.
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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. Brass tacks
Edited on Sat Aug-25-07 06:48 PM by lynyrd_skynyrd

Yes, I admit the system is flawed and a few have fallen through the cracks,... in both situations. It doesn't make it any more or less right or wrong, it's just a fact of life.

I wouldn't call it an 'acceptable loss' by any means, but living in the reality based world, I know that mistakes are going to be made all the time. We're only human afterall. Humans make mistakes, that's a given, but how many people have been wrongly executed in the last 50 years, as opposed to those who deserved to die.


By supporting capital punishment, you are deeming the executions of innocent people an "acceptable loss", whether you care to admit it or not. You find the wrongful executions of a few innocent people in exchange for the executions of the guilty acceptable. I don't. We can agree to disagree on that difference of opinion.

I sincerely hope that you or someone close to you is never wrongfully accused of murder. I have a feeling you'd change your opinion quickly if that happened.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. Please document the specific cases where innocent people have been executed...
it's the least you can do.
Intellectual > scholar > scholarship > research = evidence for your argument
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
20. Very well put.
Edited on Fri Aug-24-07 05:16 PM by backscatter712
The intellectual part of my mind sees all the problems with the death penalty - with execution of innocent people, with the vindictive way in which it is used, with the cruel and unusual methods used for executing people, with the entire system. It's so flawed that the death penalty should be completely abolished. Humans are vicious animals, and aren't qualified to judge whether fellow humans should live or die.

The emotional part of my mind not only wants Couey executed, but hopes Florida brings back Old Sparky from retirement, and that they forget to wet the sponge, like in the Green Mile... There isn't a punishment harsh enough for that sack of shit.

But if we listened to the emotional part of my brain, we'd be back in the 14th century. Sometimes, emotions have to take a back seat.
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tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
23. I agree with you
I don't really have anything to add, except a summation of my thoughts on the matter. If we accept the death penalty as an appropriate sentence for any crime anywhere, innocent people will be put to death. That is unacceptable to me.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
30. When I saw this thread, I thought you were referring to Bob Murray
of the Crandall Canyon Mine. He buried six men alive and got another killed because of his greed. I'm against the death penalty, but Mr. Murray will most likely walk away scott free. Kind of puts a different perspective on things, doesn't it?
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Beerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
32. Is there incontrovertible proof that a state or the Federal
government has executed an innocent convict? I'll concede I'm asking from a position of ignorance, I really haven't heard of one. And even if so, that specific jurisdiction has much to answer for, it doesn't negate the legal consequences of all capital sentences nationwide unless the same court sentenced all, and the last time the Federal government executed someone was Timothy McVeigh in 2001. To convince me this sick fuck doesn't deserve the needle, it'd have to be the same state and same prosecutor where a proven innocent convict was put to death.
I'll also admit some ambivalence in general to the concept of capital punishment, but in certain cases it's more than deserved, such as this one.
I think Couey's only in his late 40s-early50s, so he has many many years to appeal his well-deserved appointment.
For me, there would have to be overwhelming evidence Couey was Nifonged, and I'm not buying. He admitted to raping someone's little 6 year old girl, then burying her alive in a garbage bag in a shallow grave. With her stuffed animal. What a poor misunderstood humanitarian he is!:cry:
Yeah, the indignation about the injustices visited upon Mr. Couey is really something I'm committed devoting the rest of my life to!
FREE JOHN!
:sarcasm:/is this really necessary?:sarcasm: :cry:
No pity and no mercy is pretty much where I'm at regarding Mr. Couey. Flame away.
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illinoisprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
33. I don't beleive in death for just anyone. But, after what he did to that little girl. yeah I do.
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Beerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
34. Here's something I didn't notice the first time I read the OP,
"No system is perfect, and the system that kills Couey will be the same system that kills the next innocent.
There's no other possible meaning to glean from that other than that Couey is a martyr. He was duly tried and convicted after admitting and confessing, it just seems ridiculous to include this monster among convicts that may or may not have been innocent of their sentence.
My ambivalence of the DP is rooted in the horrible injustices meted out to innocent citizens of the U.S., but I'm focused on the atrocities this p.o.s. confessed to, and unless a crooked DA can be proved to have Nifonged Couey, I want him dead last week.
I'm focused on the trees for the forest and painterly stroke vs. broad-brush, and all that.
Interesting thread!:beer:
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
35. I think your argument is well made.
I'm not sure the counter argument is pure Republican.

I guess I'm mostly where you are. I feel, emotionally, that I want the death penalty is certain cases (like Couey). My logical side opposes it.

Were I touched by an act that could expose the actor to the Death Penalty, I don't know where my head or heart would be. I just can't imagine.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #35
40. That's because the counter argument is not pure republican...
nor is it anti-intellectual. Such accusations are merely heavy-handed EMOTIONAL canards employed by the OP.
We are supposed to take them at face value and exclaim, "Oh my! I am neither. Therefore, I MUST be in agreement with the poster"
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
37. I sat and listened to the sentencing
the judge went through the graphic details .

I watched as the Mother Grandmother Father and other loved ones
listened . I saw the rage in the father and the pain of letting
our justice take it's slow course .

It was very powerful .

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idgiehkt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:57 PM
Response to Original message
38. I am honestly not certain how I feel about the death penalty
but one think I know is that posts like this only make me pro-death penalty. Stop trying to make me feel bad for a child-murdering son of a bitch. Stop talking about how "emotional" it is and then waxing philosophical about what the prison populations will do to him...that is completely sick, sicker than a quick humane death by lethal injection. Find another argument, this one reeks.
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
39. We got too many Humans on Earth....we should kill those that violate capital laws
Stone the dude.....
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Retired AF Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
43. 6 billion + people on this planet
and you are concerned about some sick fuck like this being put to death. I wont loose any sleep over it.
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
44. Recommended. eom
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Mutineer Donating Member (659 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
47. Oh we shouldn't kill him. We should just bury him alive.
That's what he did to his victim.
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
51. I oppose capital punishment even for guilty criminals. (n/t)
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
52. And do I want THE STATE to have that power? Hell fucking no.
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