Probably the stupidest statement I've ever heard. Coal Mine Murray.

[Dr.Phool]

I didn't catch the whole clip on CNN yesterday. I was just passing through the family room, and they were broadcasting a clip.

He claimed that god had pre-ordained the collapse. It was all in his hands.

Nope, not Murray's responsibility for operating an unsafe mine. God did it.

Just what kind of an evil deity do you bow down to, you asswipe? Men with families to feed and support, have to go down into your filthy, unsafe mine, and just for the fun of it, or some other "mysterious" reason, your deity decides to create a bunch of widows and orphans. Is this the same God of Clowns who told George W. Chimp to invade Iraq?

Forgive me for being an unbeliever, but by my logic, if there really were a God of Justice, your fat, republican, greedy, exploitative ass would be the main course at one of Michael Vick's house parties. Too bad the poor dogs would get sick from all the lard in your loins.

[Sequoia]

1. I can't believe he said that!

How utterly irresponsible and heartless to those families. Sure, God must've had a grudge against those guys. Right. His karma is sure to get him now and I hope soon.

[Ganja Ninja]

2. Send that SOB in there with a shovel and pick and tell him ...

not to come out until he finds those lost miners.

[MisterP]

3. the Devil--er, God--made me do it!

[greyl]

4. Thing is, I'd bet many of the family members of the victims will eventually

be saying the same thing.(if they aren't already)

[HamdenRice]

8. What a repugnant thing to say

These people have lost family members and you are going to trash them as being on the same level as the mine operator with no evidence whatsoever?

Uggghhh.

[greyl]

10. You're either ignorant of typical bereavement patterns, or picking a fight with a strawman again.

Fact is, it's likely that most people of faith who go through emotional loss will eventually land on "everything happens for a reason" or some variation as a means of handling their grief, spiritual conflict, and natural desire to find sense and meaning. It's very difficult to believe you're totally unaware of this.
They're called God-clichés for a reason.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HamdenRice]

9. On edit, to be clear

The mine owner is using religious fatalism in order to absolve himself of guilt for his shoddy work safety conditions.

There is no evidence the families have turned to religious fatalism. But even if they did, they would not be using it for ethically bankrupt purposes.

See the difference?

[Raksha]

14. There's no reason to say that.

I'm sure the miner's families KNOW Murray is a greedy, negligent asshole. They probably knew it before we did...and I bet they're pissed too.

[greyl]

15. The reason was to broaden the discussion.

I was among the first on this board to state that Murray qualifies for Top 10 Conservative Idiot status(the day after the collapse when he made his first media appearance, I think). My opinion of him has only gone downhill since then - we all know he's a total ass who is trying to escape responsibility.

I'm also on record here as being against the entire coal mining industry.

However, since the topic of this thread is a claim that God had a hand in the collapse of the mine, I wanted to offer my opinion that I bet many of the victim's family members will eventually arrive at the "same" conclusion, albeit for different reasons. To those that do, the conclusion will be a necessary one, fashioned in order to shore up the walls of their faith.

From the Salt Lake Tribune, August 8:

"Even though we can't see the reality with our eyes and senses, we must trust that there are angels with our brothers who are trapped.''
...
For now, Lee said the only thing folks can do is to trust in God.
"We want to talk to the families about hope and about the realization that God is in charge," she said. "We're trying to help uplift the families . . . who are in a place where they don't know if the loss is permanent."
www.sltrib.com/ci_6570327

[HamdenRice]

16. No, it wasn't

It was to lob a stereotype at what seem to appear to you to be poor, dumb, religious, yokel miners and their families in the hour of their tragedy.

Please provide one shred of evidence that these families have adopted the religious fatalism you ascribe to them. You can't because as you yourself have written you are "predicting" what they are going to do.

Based on what, I may ask? A stereotype? Some inside information?

Because I don't stereotype miners as stupid, but instead think of the history of mine worker militancy in the face of tragedy, my prediction is that they are going to demand change in a politically sophisticated way.

Again, you seem incapable of understanding or acknowledging the critique of your post, based on what the OP is saying.

The mine owner is using religious fatalism to absolve himself of his own guilt and responsibility for running an unsafe mine.

The miners' families have not adopted religious fatalism, and even if any one of them does so in the future, it will not be to absolve themselves of responsibility.

That's why your post is so repugnant. You are equating the mine owner and the miners' families for their adoption of religious fatalism.

Now please provide that evidence that they all (not people in general, not one or two of them) have adopted religious fatalism. Otherwise you should just apologize for engaging in stereotyping and move on.

[greyl]

17. Other than laugh, there's not much else to do but

provide a refresher on straw arguments.

straw man -- A fallacy that occurs when someone attacks a less defensible position than the one actually being put forth. This occurs very often in politics, when one seeks to derive maximum approval for himself/herself or for a cause.

Example: "Opposition to the North American Free Trade Agreement amounts to nothing but opposition to free trade." (Someone can believe in free and open trade and yet still oppose NAFTA.)

Straw Man (Fallacy Of Extension):

attacking an exaggerated or caricatured version of your opponent's position.
For example, the claim that "evolution means a dog giving birth to a cat."

Another example: "Senator Jones says that we should not fund the attack submarine program. I disagree entirely. I can't understand why he wants to leave us defenseless like that."

On the Internet, it is common to exaggerate the opponent's position so that a comparison can be made between the opponent and Hitler.

[HamdenRice]

18. Why are you afraid to answer the question?

It's not a straw man at all. The argument is that there is no parallel between the mine owner's use of fatalism -- to deflect guilt from himself -- and the miners' families' use of fatalism.

Can you or can you not provide evidence that the families are subscribing to religious fatalism? Can you or can you not understand the difference between their positions?

Par for the course.

[wryter2000]

5. He needs to keep talking

All the way into a jail cell.

[spanone]

6. God also caused that earthquake that didn't happen

[Bluebear]

7. "The Lord dictated whatever happened down there"

I think that was the quote and I could not believe it myself.

[blogslut]

12. I may be agnostic

But I feel safe in saying that God is going to get him for that.

[malaise]

13. He actually said the same thing

the day the mine collapsed. Countdown had a good section last night.

See Murray and the mine mess.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/

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