Did any of you watch "God's Warriors" on CNN tonight?

[napi21]

I admit, I've never been much of a student of history, but this Part 1 of the special confirmed to me that the US total support of the Jews is misplaced at the very least! I wasn't sure I would be able to watch the whole 2 hours, but it was quite an eye opener to me.

Tomorrow Part 2 is going to be about Muslim warriors, and I'm sure it will be just as much of an education. On Wed. Part 3 will be about the Christians.

I commend CNN for puting this special together. I don't know how many people will watch it, but I really hope it's a lot!!!!

[Hardrada]

1. It confirms the suspicions people have of religions

that all begin in a desert!

[napi21]

2. Yes, and it seems all religions did. It seems this whole program is an attempt

to describe fundamentalism in all religions. I think that's great that CNN has done that. Even though I still feel fundamentalists of all religions are nuts! The other thing I found interesting in tonight's show was the joining of the Christian fundies and the Jewish fundies. They really have completely opposing beliefs, yet they joined politically.

[Hardrada]

3. I think you are quite right. These people do believe in a literal Scripture

and it's scary they take all the Bible "promises" absolutely at face value. I don't feel comfortable being on the same planet with them!

[KharmaTrain]

4. My Jewish Perspective

I could relate and yet be repulsed by what I saw. A little background...in 1969 I spent the summer in Israel and was able to travel through most of the country...including Gaza and the West Bank. The victory over the 6 Day war was still in the air and threats of a new war were very much in the air. Most Israelis I met wanted a lasting peace with their neighbors, but were conflicted on the role of the Palestinians in this future peace. They still are. It's been compounded by the zealots on many sides who have made a permanent state of war a way of life...a hard cycle to break.

From my religious background, I had encountered many Orthodox and Messianic Jews...the "fundies" per se. Just like the Christian Right, they were always a part of the religious experience, but have become emboldened over the years of political strife and war. Many came from families that themselves were some of the most persecuted in Eastern Europe, felt alienated in a secular America and believe Israel is their "birthrite". Their power has grown through money and pervasive political pressure and influence...and forming common cause with the Christian right. It's a union that I've always viewed as destructive for both...and time will tell if I am right.

What struck me was the interview with one lady who, when questioned about forming an alliance with fundies who believe in Armegeddon and the rapture that says Jews who don't covert will burn in hell said well that since she didn't believe in Jesus and dismissed the rest of this scenario that it won't happen. It was like looking at two parallel universes.

I really appreciate Christine's work and glad to see she's getting time to delve into this subject. It sure beats an hour of Larry King intevirewing another corpse.

[qdemn7]

5. Excellent post!

One question, what do you think was the basis of their alienation?

[KharmaTrain]

9. Thank You

Having grown up with the Holocoust as a central theme the best answer I can give is the silent anger I saw in many of my elders as to how this could of happened and why nobody did anything about it. The theme I grew up with was how Jews were surrounded in this world by hate...especially, dare I say, from Christians, not from Moslems...and that while we live in their world, we will never be fully accepted for who we are. Some saw Israel as the place where they would be in a majority or be able to practice in a freer and open way than they do here. Call it the "Diaspora Hangover".

Cheers...

[qdemn7]

10. Interesting....

That wasn't the answer I was expecting. But still glad to know your answer. Considering how virulent Anti-Semitism was before the war here in the US, I'm not surprised they feel that way.

[KharmaTrain]

11. Which Answer Were You Expecting?

My mother grew up where she had to hide the fact that she was Jewish or face losing her job during the depression. My father faced discrimination in entering medical school and then later in where he could practice due to a silent "No Jews Allowed" attitude. While I've never encountered that level of anti-semitism, I have seen my share over the years. There was one company I interviewed with...a large one...where I was given the hint that my chances of moving up the corporate ladder would be enhanced if I were to "convert" to a different religion.

I'm curious what answer you were expecting...maybe there's some misundertandings that can be cleared.

Cheers...

[qdemn7]

17. The answer I was expecting

Was the fact they felt alienated by "lack" of "religious observation" in modern America. I'm NOT trying to start an argument, it was just way you strung things together in the sentence that made me think this way. As you are well aware, many Christians constantly claim they feel they are alienated and / or persecuted in modern "secular" America. I find their attitude extremely distasteful. I thought the Orthodox / Messianic groups were adopting the same mindset. I'm glad to know I was wrong.

And it's truly shocking that in this day and age you would be expected to convert to Christianity.

[KharmaTrain]

23. It's Always A Learning Experience

I'm no way offended...and not a fighter in this place. (Rare as that may be), I was just curious what your perspective was...which you described.

I find the "alliance" between the Orthodox/Messianic and the Christian Right to be a match literally made in "hell". In college, there was a guy in my dorm who, when he found out I was Jewish, would come by and want to talk. Initially, I found it somewhat flattering that he was interested in my faith, and would always ask if I knew which tribe I belonged to. I was 17 at the time and I found it a bit awkward. I mentioned it to my mother and she told me to be careful...she'd never had anyone ask her that question before...and we really didn't know. When I asked him why my tribe mattered he then gave me my first introduction to Armageddon and how I might be one of the members of the lost tribes and we would both go to Israel and meet the messiah. This really blew my mind...and mentioned it to my mother. It was then I heard the horror in her voice as she said..."he's a soul stealer"...and told me the downside of this beautiful story he was trying to tell me. The next time I saw him I was pretty direct and said how I respected his right to believe as he wants to, but I wasn't interested in playing along. He was cool about it and we remained friendly but never breached the religion topic again.

I've encountered several people who have felt I needed to find Jesus or that unless I did I was going to either burn in hell or go to limbo or a garage in Cleveland. It's interesting as I grow older to see how people who I grew up with and had little to no religious interest have grown more and more involved. I'm sure some of it is social, but also there's that need for some people to have a certainty in their lives...to feel they're doing good or that they will either have some form of eternal life or afterlife. I've just grown up too educated and too cynical to buy into that. I'll believe in a hereafter when I get a postcard from the edge.

A central theme for many Jews is the "diaspora"...or the period between the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in 70AD and the formation of the modern state of Israel. The alienation theme runs deep in this story...be it in the Ghettos of Rome or the Stetl of Russia or Poland or Crown Heights in Brooklyn. Even within Israel these people are outsiders...many don't serve in the military or pay taxes and their small parties are the power brokers that have enabled Begin, Sharon and now Olmert.

Thank you for your posts. I constantly hear callers on talk shows or scan religious stations and hear that persecution complex you describe...and how its been manipulated by people like Dobson, Falwell, Robertson, Reed and others to create hate, not understanding. These types have come and gone in history...and maybe we've seen the religious right overplay its hand and how frustrated many have become with where the movement has gone.

Cheers...

:toast:

[qdemn7]

26. "A soul stealer"

Wow, never had that one before.

[JNelson6563]

13. Interesting point

The theme I grew up with was how Jews were surrounded in this world by hate...especially, dare I say, from Christians, not from Moslems

The Moslems have a long history of being more tolerant than the Christians. A quick study of the "crusades" makes this very clear. As the Christians traveled to the "holy land" they slaughtered pretty much everyone they came across who wasn't a white Christian. Many of those communities were mixed, different peoples living in relative harmony. At least until the Christians came.

On another note....

the silent anger I saw in many of my elders as to how this could of happened and why nobody did anything about it

I wonder how these folks feel about the genocide happening in Darfur.

Thanks for posting your insights.

Julie

[KharmaTrain]

14. Or Kampuchea For That Matter

Dare I say that our worldview is jaded by culture and, in many cases, a misunderstood concept of our places in the world. I will admit that I am not as familiar with the situation and conditions in Darfur but am repulsed from what I do see/read. Unfortunately it's a story that involves "them"...people who most of us have no tangible bonds to and thus the emotion is muted. Dare I throw in the racist aspect and myopia many in this country demonstrate that somehow views Americans and Western Europeans as superior to the third world and thus the impact of their suffering is dilluted.

I have a collection of letters of between my grandparents...who immigrated here 100 years ago...and their family in Eastern Europe. The letters go up until 1939 and then no more. In 1967, we took a trip to Europe and my mother attempted to track down family members in Paris and London...in hopes some had survived. Several years later, she traveled to the village her mother was born in about 30 miles outside of Warsaw...all she found was one Jewish family that still lived in the town that once was home to several thousand...and that all traces of her family had been buried between the Nazi occupation and subsequent Communist government. Thus to her last day, my mother tried to find missing family.

It's so ironic that many see a Jewish/Moslem confict as this is a new dynamic that didn't exist prior to the British occupation of the region following World War I. Jews lived peacefully in Arabic cities from Algiers to Baghdad and the Koran notes the Jews as being the "Chosen people". The age of nationalism has changed all that.

Thank-you for your response.

Cheers...

[JNelson6563]

16. Very informative, thank you!

:toast:

[Hell Hath No Fury]

18. The new "christian" and Orthodox alliance...

is one of the most bizarre things I have ever seen. These two groups are openly using each other to accomplish larger goals -- and I view it as them making "deals with the devil", which can only end in a kind of mutual destruction.

I too am glad for the series -- understanding there are religious crazies at work on all fronts and what their ultimate goals are is vitally important.

I am looking forward to the two remaining pieces.

[Behind the Aegis]

6. "US total support of the Jews is misplaced"

And how does the US totally support the Jews?

[tkmorris]

7. 2.5 Billion dollars in 2006

Why?

[Behind the Aegis]

8. Jews got 2.5 billion in 2006?

Who do I write, because someone forgot to send my fucking check!

[JHB]

12. Clue: the support of which you speak is for _Israel_, not "the Jews"

One does not equal the other, though some people (from all sides, in my unfortunate experience) can't seem to grasp the distinction.

[Katherine Brengle]

22. Wouldn't you say we have a rather chummy relationship with Israel? nt

[Behind the Aegis]

24. Yes. And?

[Aviation Pro]

15. Hmmmm.....

...the "Born in the Desert" idea may have some truth to it. Afterall, easy, breezy Hinduism has none of the violent tendencies of the religions of the hardscrabble and little to eat.

[Hardrada]

20. Actually, read Christopher Hitchen's new book re: religion.

He finds no solace in the East either. I don't agree with much he says about US foreign policy or the war but he wonderfully demolishes ALL the pernicious belief systems. When we grow up as a species we won't need to really on "supreme beings."
"Imagine no religion."

[NuttyFluffers]

25. all world views hold the potential for violence, evil, and opportunism

yet they all profess the opposite, funny that. there is no such thing as cultural exceptionalism, and this applies to even agnostic and atheistic philosophies. there is no salvation outside of your own self-control and love for another -- and even inside that there shall be potential for violence, evil, and opportunism.

just try your best, we'll all be fertilizer in 100 or so years anyway.

[Cass]

19. Yes, I watched it last night.

I have a great deal of respect for Christianne Amanpour and her work. As expected, she did a great job explaining a complex subject. I didn't think I could sit through the whole 2 hours either but it was riveting and, before I knew it, the 2 hours had flown by. I am looking forward to the next two parts in this series.

[Katherine Brengle]

21. I started to, but I was getting too angry too close to bedtime so I had to switch off.

I wonder if anyone put it up on YouTube - time to check.

I was surprised at how not-completely-in-line-with-Israel it seemed, the little that I saw. It was impressive and unusual.