Does anyone here have any direct experience with the Amish?

[bicentennial_baby]

I've been reading all these articles about Amish sexual abuse, incest, puppy mills...Anyone here have any direct experience or information to share?

:) Thanks.

[jody]

1. Please provide links to articles. n/t

[PSPS]

17. I'm not the OP, but here's one

http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/January-February-2005/feature_labi_janfeb05.msp

[jody]

19. Thanks. :hi:

:hi:

[karlrschneider]

2. There are quite a few around here. They seem okay to me,

a little 'odd' but nothing sinister that I -know- of. But of course I don't know what's going on in their houses...
I know they bake up some damn fine bread! :-)

[yardwork]

3. I grew up in Amish country, near some of the largest populations in the country.

However, I have never known any Amish folks personally. They keep to themselves. They sell furniture, handmade quilts and baskets, and food. Some of the men are active as construction contractors. The women and children are very shy and won't talk to anyone outside their own groups. I think that they are told to stay away from the non-Amish.

From what I observed, women and animals have very few rights among the Amish. I have often heard that they abuse their animals, especially the horses that pull the buggies. The women are dressed in heavy clothes winter and summer - heavy long skirts, dresses buttoned to the neck, white starched head pieces. I've read heartbreaking cases about women being sexually abused and told to say nothing. There are cases of women finally appealing to the law and being ostracized as a result.

Amish who leave the community are ostracized, excommunicated from the group forever.

Basically, I don't see much difference between the Amish and the Taliban.

[Inuca]

6. Are you refering to the large communities in PA?

I visited a couple of times when I used to live in NJ, and the vibes I got were quite different from my experience with the small community I mentioned in my post. Especially in terms of not wanting to talk to outsiders. Quite to the contrary. I am not US born, and they inquire about my accent, what language I speak with my husband, etc.

[yardwork]

31. No, in Ohio

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

10. That's odd

because at the Amish store in Arthur, the women ran the place and were always talkative and friendly. Once we brought some friends in from Germany who didn't speak English. We explained about the store to them, and one girl came up and said, "Can you understand us? We can understand you!" The Amish in Arthur tended to speak German amongst themselves. My sixth grade teacher actually taught for a while in one of the Amish schools, and said the kids were well behaved and well taken care of. This would have been back in the 1950s.

[fishwax]

15. I was just in Arthur last week

Assuming you mean Arthur, Illinois ... It has been my experience, too, that everyone was quite friendly and talkative--some moreso than others, naturally, but I certainly never felt less than welcome ...

[Yael]

14. Connecting them to the Taliban is like comparing apples to pigs

They do not impose their views on anyone outside of their own community and are paragons of peace.

[Inuca]

4. Depends on what you mean by

"direct experience". There is a small community near where I live, and for the last couple of years or so I go there regularly during the summmer months to buy fresh produce, cheaper and SO MUCH tastier than the supermarket fare. I always buy them from the one family, and often chat with the mother. She is an extremely kind woman, with an amazing amount of common sense. Seems very non-judgemental, often gives us stuff for free in spite of our insistance to pay for everything, they seem very nice people. Recently she had another baby, the 8th I tink, a girl that was born with Down. When she told me about that, we had a rather lengthy discussion that almost brought tears to my eyes. The almost joyful resignation was very moving and very wise. Again, this is just my very limited experience. The community I am referring to is a small one, though I have the feeling that quite a few of them, including my almost-friend, came from Lancaster, PA. Hope this helps.

[BlueJazz]

5. I've known some quite well but they were from the same Sect.

In case you don't know...Amish have various "Sects" and they can be VERY different and have different rules and attitudes.

..Like the ones I knew smoked pipes and didn't seem to mind the Women having strong opinions and voicing those strong opinions.

I guess you could call them "Liberal Amish"

They DID point out severals times the Each Sect can be Worlds apart.

(and they often don't care for each other)

[Inuca]

7. Interesting

[undeterred]

8. The non-Amish are the "English"

and I think the aversion towards technology is also a key factor. They are certainly known for putting up barns and buildings quickly by working together. The women are skilled at all kinds of quilting and crafts.

The strong side of it would be that there is an emphasis on community and a simple lifestyle, and that part of it is beautiful. There is a great deal of humility and people take care of each other. The Amish do "shun" as a means of punishment but they are also very forgiving- remember the schoolhouse shooting that happened last year and how quick they were to forgive what happened.

The Amish are pacifists- at least regarding war. I always assumed that nonviolence was applied to every dimension of life, including hitting children and animals. Maybe not.

I certainly don't think that the sexual abuse is part of what they teach, but it is a patriarchal society and they do teach that women are submissive to their husbands, so it isn't surprising that young girls could be abused by brothers or other relatives and feel powerless to do anything about it.

There have been some Amish girls who had to leave their families in Wisconsin because of sexual abuse and its a very tough thing. When they leave the family they are completely on their own. When they testified in court, the families felt sorry for the young men who raped the girls instead of for the girls. Clearly the girls had less value in their thinking. This is a pretty distorted Christianity.
Its ugly but I don't know if its like the Taliban.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

9. Grew up near Old Order Amish in Illinois

they were transitioning from being strictly farmers to doing other things, because of the lack of availability of farmland. They opened a cheese factory in Arthur, and had a smoked meat plant for a while, but the government shut them down because the kids were in the store when the slicers were being used. They were also in plain sight of the customers, and were not working the blades or anything-older ones were looking after younger ones, that's all. The Amish of the Arthur-Arcola area went into building cabinetry and furniture, though many still farm, I understand.

[ThomWV]

11. I'm around them a good bit and have talked to a few

They are not very outgoing to strangers ("the english" as the ones around here call them that ain't them) but there certainly isn't anything like the stuff you mention going on there - and when I said "certainly" that was exactly the word I meant to use.

[Yael]

12. My next door neighbors are Amish

There is what you mentioned and so much more. Google "rumspringa". This is the practice of allowing late-teens to run free, open drinking, sex, drugs, etc... until they are 20 when they have a decision to make -- to remain in the amish community once it is 'out of their system' or to be shunned (kicked out). There are diseases that are not seen outside the amish community because of the inbreeding that is inate to their closed community. Don't get me started on the puppy mills...

All that said, I would encourage you to google up news accounts from the school shooting that took place here last fall. The funeral of Charles Roberts was heavily attended by the amish community out of respect for the family he left behind and they took up a large collection of money for his widow. They are the most peace loving people (as a collective group) that one can imagine.

[DURHAM D]

13. Don't forget to include certain Mennonite sects in the discussion.

Where I grew up we had several different Mennonite groups. Some had automobiles and electricity. Other, to this day, drive buggies and don't have electricity but do have modern farm equipment like tractors and combines.

In all the sects the women are treated like property. They used to have on-going battles with the state about the requirement to educate the females. I assume this has been resolved by home schooling but I don't know for sure.

They have actually had problems with some of the young men getting into cooking/selling meth. Its a very closed society so they keep their secrets well.

[truth2power]

26. My family are Mennonites. No, the women are not treated like property...

My mother's family were Mennonites living in Russia at the time of the Revolution. They had their own communities. They were actually of German heritage. My understanding is that in the 1700s, Catherine the Great encouraged the Prussian Mennonites to emigrate to Russia with an offer of extensive land. Those who emigrated became farmers.

When Revolution broke out in Russia, many in the Mennonite community wanted to emigrate to Canada. The Canadian government didn't want them, but the Canadian Mennonites persisted in petitioning the govt. and finally they were allowed to emigrate. In Canada, they (my aunts and uncles) settled on farms and worked the land because that's what they knew.

The next generation (my cousins) were plumbers, tradespeople, factory workers etc. They attended public schools. My cousins drive the newest model cars and live in beautiful homes, in what we would call suburbs, with all the modern conveniences, including TVs. Their children are nurses, computer programmers, artists and etc. Most are college graduates.

My Canadian relatives are still a part of the Mennonite community and of their local Mennonite Church. The women wear makup and ordinary clothing. I have been to their church services and I would say they're very similar to a Methodist service. Very mainstream. They don't prosletyze, nor do they speak in tongues or any of that crazy fundie stuff. They're not bible-thumpers. They are not secretive. They value social justice and peace. It's a community that I could be comfortable in, and I don't even identify myself as Christian.

I hope that puts a different face on what some here think of Mennonites. I have seen this type of discussion here before, and I didn't speak up. I thought it was about time I did.

[napi21]

16. My only experience with the Amish are the puppy mills!

the rescue group I volunteer for has rescued MANY Bichon dogs from the Amish, and all I can say is TOTAL NEGLECT! All they're interested in is breeding and making MONEY!

[Randypiper]

18. I remember this from last year

"Amish residents of rural Lancaster County, Pa., have started a charity fund to help not only the victims' families – but also the mass-murderer's widow and children, reports the New York Times today. The killer, Charles Carl Roberts IV, 32, committed suicide at the end of Monday's attack, in which he shot 10 girls. Five of them, aged 7 to 13, died."

I was immensely touched by this.

[alphafemale]

29. They are people. Like any other. Some good. Some bad. Some wretched.

Some people want to glorify them. Some people want to vilify them. They're just people...so they're people with horsies & buggies. They're still just people.

Not anymore prone to incest or animal abuse than the neighbor to the left or the right of you, I'd imagine.

[DURHAM D]

20. One thing about the Mennonites -

in the middle part of the country, whenever a tornado hits, the Mennonites are the first to arrive. They keep big trucks ready to roll. The trucks are filled with food, quilts, tents, chain saws, etc.

They usually beat the Red Cross and the National Guard to the scene.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

21. I have purchased cheese from the Amish, inspected the fine

furniture they make by hand for a fraction of the price one usually would spend on a hutch or a fine oak table. I wonder if we can get an Amish DU group started, they can send their posts in by carrier pidgeon and Skinner can enter them when he gets time. Just a thought.... a crappy one but a thought just the same. :)

[Thirtieschild]

22. Grew up with Mennonites, my great-grandmother came from an Amish family

She died before I was born but from what I heard from family members who knew her, she was a strong woman, not one to allow herself to be anyone's property. In fact, every woman I knew from this family was strong.

Because one of my hobbies is genealogy and because I have Amish ancestry, in the 1980s I subscribed to an Amish newsletter, mimeographed and roughly done. I don't remember anything that suggested they were other than upright.

In the mid-1800s my grandmother's uncle felt the Amish and Mennonites were "too worldly" so started his own sect (Church of God in Christ, Mennonite, a.k.a. Holdeman Mennonites), which now numbers around 20,000 members, mostly in the U.S., Canada and Mexico. My husband rode with the border patrol several times (while researching a novel) and was told that (some) Mennonites who live on the Mexican side of the border fit vehicles with secret places for drugs. They almost certainly belong to my great-uncle's sect: I was pretty sure there was congregation just south of us in Mexico and then I saw women wearing the black caps typical of this sect in a K-Mart in Deming.

The Mennonites I knew as a child were loving, gentle people but the effects of this particular sect on my father's family is another story. I've read the history of the sect, which included acts that led members to be castigated. I'm not sure you could be shunned for laughing, but you could sure be condemned for it. Everything about it makes me shudder. Several years ago I got an e-mail from a young man who belonged to the sect and had been shunned; his stories of the way he was treated by his family were awful.

[riderinthestorm]

23. My brother in law is Mennonite, his extended family are old order Amish in Lancaster PA

We also have many dealings with the community in Shipshewana Indiana since we have draft horses and that is the closest location to us for driving gear and harness and horses of this type.

They are not saints but they aren't the worst religious group out there. Some of the cultural problems I have with them are the conditioning and brainwashing that goes on in groups like this. I also find their lack of education (their schools end at 8th grade) extremely disturbing - if any of their children want to go on with their education they are basically shunned from the community at 14 years old. Ouch.

I truly abhor the way many of them treat their animals - they are not sentimental about how them, they are commodities and very little emotion is attached to their care. I have seen some of their puppy mills up close when going to look at horses for sale and it's disgusting. Horses with terrible feet and sloppy maintenance, left to stand for hours in freezing drizzle, worked while lame - I've seen all of this and more.

On the flip side, I've stayed with them frequently and always enjoyed myself. Earthy and interesting, we share a lot of the same interests (farming, horses, driving equipment etc.) so it's usually excellent conversation. If there is sexual abuse going on, like any entrenched religious society, they have figured out how to keep it pretty well hidden. I'm pretty good at spotting the signs and symptoms of sexual abuse and I can't say I've noticed it. I'm sure it's there but the community obviously knows how to keep it under wraps. Girls or women with obvious distress would be kept out of sight according to my BIL.

My BIL's father was a Mennonite minister in Elgin Illinois and his mother was old order Amish who left her Lancaster family to go on to high school. She became a teacher and never regretted her decision although she says that it was truly painful at the time when she was shunned.

[porphyrian]

24. Not really, but I like funnel cakes. - n/t

[The Straight Story]

25. I do

From my time in Northern Ohio.

A friend of mine was an attorney who represented some Amish folks.

The quick lowdown on them from my and his experiences:

Most Amish are decent folk and live within their beliefs, but some do stray and get into gambling, risky investments (a no-no).

They are a lot like most of us are - some are really good folks, and some abuse those whom they can.

Most of them do lead a simple life, but those that do not get all the press.

There are always bad apples on a tree :)

[cornermouse]

27. Highway 96 from Carthage going east.

A series of signs with various slogans which I assume are either Amish or Mennonite saying if you divorce and remarry you are fornicating among other things.

A few years ago, a few of the men picketing/marching? on one of the major streets stating we were all going to hell.

A year or so ago, someone picketing a rodeo with a sign that indicated they thought the rodeo was the height of sin and the rodeo attendees were all going to hell.

I have a few reservations about how nice they are.

[Desertrose]

28. Grew up & lived among them for many years....

in Lancaster Co, PA. Had many Amish neighbors...could tell a few good stories...

Someone upthread pointed out there are different sects and this is true. Some being more modern would have more contact with the "English".

What I noticed over the years is that many treat animals as we treat cars- especially the horses. Many a time I would run down our driveway "asking" one to not trot his horse down the hill (it was a blind curve too!)They'll run them til they are no good then sell em at New Holland to the packing plant.

I'd heard stories of the puppy mills and it would not surprise me really, but I never had any direct experiences. There are some who are out just to make money. Many are very shrewd businessmen. My ex did accounting work for many of their businesses. Hey...Amish are basically just like the general population.Some are caring about all living things, others, less so.

Some like to walk the line when it comes to their laws...I got stuck with a long distance phone bill once when I let one Amish neighbor use my phone.(He was the one who really "ruled over" his wife. She was sweet...would bring me the best bread.) There was one farm that used to have a "phone booth"- it looked just like an outhouse from the outside but we saw the wire tapped from the telephone pole running into it. LOL

As for wild parties...oh yeah. The kids are allowed to sew their "wild oats" until about 20, then they must choose. There were a lot of drugbusts & beer raids happening in some nice ol barns.Their parties were pretty famous and the elders just looked the other way (up to a point).


I would believe the sexual abuse too. In any society as rigid as the Amish and as patriarchal...with as many children living in close proximity....I would not be surprised at anything. Just like any repressed society....it's not talked about openly.

Inbreeding..oh yeah...only so many original families. We had some dwarf neighbors...the Amish community built them the coolest scaled down house.Quite a few folks with an extra digit...after awhile you just stopped noticing these things.


But then there is the other side of the Amish. They were so kind and forgiving to the family of the man who opened fire in the schoolhouse last fall.(That was actually in my old school district- we knew a lot of the families.) I know how wonderful they can be and I know there is the other side...just like the rest of the human race.

:) DR


Best ever Amish bumper sticker..."I may be slow, but I'm ahead of you" I kid you not.

[mbee]

30. The puppy mills are something I've recently heard of from

a local animal rescue organization. We have an Amish Market nearby, but I am reluctant to go there and give them my business now that I know some of them abuse animals. The people at rescue say they think pets are livestock. Well I don't want livestock abused either.