Dow collapsing again today

[ChairmanAgnostic]

already down another 121 points to 12730, and trending down. the financial sector is in the pisser. Some tech stocks as OK, but major lenders were looking at yesterday's bad news as far better than what they face today.

I do believe we are in the midst of something far more devastating than a "correction". There is another C word Calamity.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

1. oh shit. The Fed just added 12 BILLION more just now.

can we say, a little too late?
Country Wide is now junk status.

[Subdivisions]

2. How can they think this is a good practice? No, really! I'm a

novice at finance but even as the Yen is gaining on the dollar, they are going to inject even MORE funny money into the action further devaluin the dollar against the yen?

[Virginia Dare]

21. I'm not a financial wiz either, but isn't this what happened..

in Germany, just prior to the Nazi's taking over?

[Xenotime]

41. Is it? Shit don't say that.

[LeftCoast]

48. No. This nothing remotely like that.

When the nazis took over Germany was in the midst of the Great Depression and was dealing with hyper-inflation where a 1 million Reichsmark note was worthless almost as soon as it was printed. This is an unpleasant down-turn in the market, that was a catastrophic market failure.

[Virginia Dare]

61. No, we haven't seen the collapse yet..

and hopefully we won't, but the parallels are eerie..


When the stock market collapsed on Wall Street on Tuesday, October 29, 1929, it sent financial markets worldwide into a tailspin with disastrous effects.

The German economy was especially vulnerable since it was built out of foreign capital, mostly loans from America and was very dependent on foreign trade. When those loans suddenly came due and when the world market for German exports dried up, the well oiled German industrial machine quickly ground to a halt.

As production levels fell, German workers were laid off. Along with this, banks failed throughout Germany. Savings accounts, the result of years of hard work, were instantly wiped out. Inflation soon followed making it hard for families to purchase expensive necessities with devalued money.

Overnight, the middle class standard of living so many German families enjoyed was ruined by events outside of Germany, beyond their control. The Great Depression began and they were cast into poverty and deep misery and began looking for a solution, any solution.

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/begins.htm

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. No... what happened in Germany

was hyperinflation driven by war reparations

Not the same animal by the way

They had a collapse of their stock market, about the same time we did, but the causes were very different

And neither of those had these ammounts of liquidity pushed into the system

[Clark2008]

My old home loan was through them.

It was a fixed rate, though, and I loved them. They were customer friendly, even if they did tend to call too often wanting me to take out a home equity loan.

[catmandu57]

35. I think they've just scraped the bottom of the barrel

Last week they pumped in 37 billion then 29 billion (I think 29) today they found twelve billion more, I doubt there is anymore billions to be found. Lookout for Black Friday.

[Deja Q]

49. The Federal Reserve Bank? Last I heard, they're a corporation.

Not government. Unless it's the federal government that's piping in the money.

[Karenina]

60. A VERY PRIVATIZED ONE.

with lifelonglandmineproof ties to the feral gubmint pipin' in da MONAAAAAYYAYAHEEEY... :wtf:

[Uben]

3. And how many have been fired or prosecuted

for all these sub-prime mortgages?

[napi21]

6. What are you going to prosecute them for?

sure it was bad business practice, way to high a risk and all that, but it WASN'T illegal!

[Xenotime]

4. As sad as this is, I'm forced to laugh...

Serves the pugs right to think they could build a better economy than what we had in the 1990s. All those assholes who kept saying "The economy is great!" are now broke. This proves that this administration can't manage the economy.

[spanone]

5. they didn't want to build a better economy, they wanted to rape the one we had.

and did so very well. imho

[Deja Q]

50. Since it's a "global economy", and repercussions seem to be global,

That dough will probably be useless in the end.

:shrug:

[Jackpine Radical]

8. It's Clinton's fault.

It's all those Libberul Democrat policies coming home to roost.

[zehnkatzen]

11. You forgot to blame Carter too. I'm sure they can work him in somwheres. n/t k/r.

[Jackpine Radical]

23. Carter was to blame for the Reagan Recession and some bad times

in the Bush I years.

[zehnkatzen]

25. ...and scoliosis and Legionnaire's Disease and tsunamis and tooth decay...

...you all can continue the chain, I'm sure.

[Jackpine Radical]

70. Tooth decay? I knew about the other stuff--Legionnaire's & whatnot,

But I didn't know about the tooth decay culpability until today.

[smokey nj]

73. At least he hasn't been nailed for the heartbreak of psoriasis.

[Kool Kitty]

36. Look, you know damn well that this all

started with FDR. :sarcasm:

[LSK]

66. what we are experiencing is the ripple effects of FDR

:D

[ChairmanAgnostic]

7. "I think every thing is fine - a minor correction. . .

"we've had a great year, so this is just a blip"
this from CNBC's propagandist trying to ease tensions. Except the interviewer is saying, ARE YOU KIDDING?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

9. in 3 minutes, WARREN BUFFETT on live @ CNBC

talking about the housing market.

This is worth watching folks.

[Clark2008]

10. Wish I could see that.

Can you keep the cube rats informed?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

14. they have a girl on who spoke to him

he agreed there is a market slow down, generally.

mainly, the four people on CNBC are split between screaming FIRE FIRE FIRE! and trying to find some facts that would reverse a complete collapse. Using words like "predictable", traditional return to mortgages, while we haven't reached bottoms, we are returning to normalization.

[eShirl]

13. thanks

I normally don't follow this stuff

[Javaman]

12. "all is well! all is well!" LOLOLOLOL

:cry:

[Drum]

15. Dow down 152....nt

[ChairmanAgnostic]

16. DOW down 178 oops only 160, and falling. Oil prices down 1.60.

countrywide down 3.09 to 18.

down
down
down
down

[RB TexLa]

20. Hedge fund sell off of oil futures to cover stock loses. Hopefully oil will rally back today or

tomorrow.

People get nervous about a slow down effecting demand for oil, there are doom and gloomers in every market correction.

[screembloodymurder]

17. When Bush finally calls a press conference,

it'll be too late.

[InkAddict]

18. Gone biking...back soon.

Nibblin on sponge cake
Watchin the sun bake
All of those tourists covered with oil
Strummin my six-string
On my front porch swing
Smell those shrimp theyre beginnin to boil

[CJCRANE]

27. More like he caused it...

the DOW started tanking when he gave his speech last week.

[spanone]

19. Open an hour and down 179...fasten your seatbelts

[ChairmanAgnostic]

22. One week ago, Bush came on Tee Vee and said, fundementals were strong

That reminds me of when in the old days, America's hero, Herbert Hoover said, "Twenty million people are starving. Whatever their politics, they shall be fed!" when he sent food to USSR and Europe to feed the starving. (He was accused to supporting stalinism)

Then, after congress blocked several moves of his while president (during the great depression), every time he said fundementals were strong and we have turned the corner, the market dropped again.

The only reason I hate to compare Hoover with BUsh, is that Hoover was a brilliant, educated and successful man. Whereas Bush has(d) Rove.

[CJCRANE]

28. Worst example of the piehole effect

I've seen so far. It's lasted a week and still going strong.

[partylessinOhio]

24. Are they still happy with Bushonomics?

I am amused to see everything sinking under the hand of Bush. His supporters have to be thinking how good they had it under Clinton. We actually had a huge surplus which * gave away to the rich. Now we have massive debt and a country in decline.

[Rockholm]

26. Why do so many on DU seem to revel in this?

Gleeful that the stock market is dropping. Thrilled that housing prices are slipping. Geez, you would that none of us own homes or have stocks or 401Ks or IRAs. Some of our livelihoods RELY on the financial markets and the real estate market.
Think about that before you jump on the "gloom and doom hooray" bandwagon.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

29. I think you confuse glee with amazement at watching a train wreck in progress

there is no glee here, just wondering how bad it will get. And the asides directed to BUSH? they are all called for.

On the other hand, seeing Diebold and Sinclair broadcasting fall strongly today is worth a cheer. Which I will gladly lead.

[zehnkatzen]

30. We like being proven right. We take no delight in our fellows suffering...

...if you'll look closely, you'll see that our schadenfreude is shot through with a great deal of trepidation and sadness.

Especially when you consider that the sinking boat may take us all down...which we have considered.

But for a thirty-year fixed mortgage, I'd be crapping my own pants about now.

[Ikonoklast]

33. I went to cash in June

And have been in commodities. Got out went oil hit $78, figured for a correction.

Sub-prime lenders have been a ticking time-bomb for close to two years now, and a Sept. or Oct. re-fi run was widely predicted months ago. It just happened earlier than previously thought.

Many were predicting the coming credit crunch.

It will take two-three years for the mortgage debacle to unwind.

[Xenotime]

46. This is how the rich get richer

My company 401k Personal Rate of Return from 01/01/2007 to 08/15/2007 is -27.6%

[Marrah_G]

37. It scares the hell out me

Even for those not directly involved in the market or real estate if this crashes it will trickle down to hurt everyone.

[Tesha]

38. Here at the Tesha household, we own our house to live in it...

> Why do so many on DU seem to revel in this?
>
> Gleeful that the stock market is dropping. Thrilled that
> housing prices are slipping. Geez, you would that none of
> us own homes or have stocks or 401Ks or IRAs.

Here at the Tesha household, we own our house to live in it
and it will retain that intrinsic value whether the market
values it at $6M, $600K or $60K.

We own a few stocks, but if they were totally wiped out, we
wouldn't be a lot worse off than we've been since the beginning
of Bush II's reign (when our stocks took their big, big bath).

Honestly, for us, the schadenfreude is worth the price we're
paying. All those people who voted our Constitution out of
existence just so they could have a Republican-directed
economy are now getting exactly what they voted for, and
even if it costs me Karmic points, I'm glad of it; I think
everyone should always get just what they "want" and I love
that these assholes are finally getting what they "wanted".

Tesha

[zehnkatzen]

40. Well put...

Here at the Tesha household, we own our house to live in it
and it will retain that intrinsic value whether the market
values it at $6M, $600K or $60K.

That's the thing, right there. One of the big problems is that people stopped looking at homes as homes and started thinking of them as investments. That made them credulous prey for ARMs, Interest-onlies, etc, etc.

The greatest wealth you can have today is your house as your home. If you're not looking to sell it when the market goes up, or treating it like an ATM in an endless series of refi's, then you're more likely to do badly.

The enjoyment I get out of my house as my home is such that such silly thoughts as "how much can I make off it" never will exceed whatever money I would hypothetically make out of selling it at a profit (and I live in Portland, Oregon, where the market is still overheated).

Me and The Wife™ never invested in stocks. If we want to gamble, we're in Oregon; just go to the nearest Native-run casino.

Honestly, for us, the schadenfreude is worth the price we're
paying. All those people who voted our Constitution out of
existence just so they could have a Republican-directed
economy are now getting exactly what they voted for, and
even if it costs me Karmic points, I'm glad of it; I think
everyone should always get just what they "want" and I love
that these assholes are finally getting what they "wanted".

I can't say as I share the sentiment–not exactly, anyway–but I wouldn't dare to contradict you on this.

[tabasco]

45. Provide examples.

I've read the entire thread and don't see any gleeful posts.

[Rockholm]

74. Can you read some of these headlines?

I have a home with a mortgage. A home, mind you, that I will be in for many, many years. This down market will certainly hit people who buy and sell every couple of years. As far as those property values, I would have to say that most of us would like to see them stay where they are. Agree? This is how schools and basic city services are funded. My community has had enough cutbacks thanks to the existing economic policies.

As far as individual investments. Yes, I have a 401K, and an IRA. My husband has both, works work an asset management company and we are pretty comfortable. Today.

That said, I take no joy as some here do in the markets tanking. I hear over and over "bush's economy." Well, yes, he has royally fucked this country up with both the war and the economy, but it is still the "NATION'S ECONOMY." If the markets continue to collapse, then the super rich will not be as well off, the middle class will be left with little and the poor will be dirt poor and will see their meager avenues of rescue shut down and unable to give them anything.

Ah, the age of the renter and the underemployed has arrived.

[shadowknows69]

51. To use an old biblical analogy and a Kris Kristofferson song

Just because I've always wanted to do so in the same thread and there seems so little opportunity to...



Build your home on sand, or build your home on stone and see which stands the test of time.


"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose. Nothing, aint nothing honey if it aint free."

[Gormy Cuss]

59. Perhaps because they've been shut out for so long.

No one wants to see others destroyed financially in order to gain themselves, but the prospect of falling or at least stabilizing house prices gives some a little hope that maybe they won't be renters for the rest of their days. A great many people have neither 401Ks nor IRAs and the direct impact of a downturn in the market just isn't an issue. These same people understand that other people will get hurt financially in this process but at least this time it won't be them.

I write this as someone with 401Ks and a house with a mortgage, but a great many of my relatives are among those hard working people who have been completely shut out of investing in anything because their jobs pay little and have weak benefits, the better jobs have gone overseas, and they can't afford the higher ed to obtain skills for higher paying jobs.

[JuniperLea]

67. The paradox of the Left

It's an "I told you so" moment that we all wish would have never come.

There's no glee, no one is happy... I don't see what you are talking about here. All I see is a bunch of people who are horrified that they are being proved right... and an inability to look away from the oncoming train wreck.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

31. Buffett: It is impossible to predict where the fall out will be, but

there will be some opportunities here.

That means, the rich and smart and lucky will get richer. Everyone else will suffer a recession. Another economist also said, "the basic economy is really fragile at the moment."

[RB TexLa]

39. There are opportunities in every market condition

The smart can always get richer.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[uppityperson]

42. Don't invest, donate?

[leftofthedial]

34. needs to get back to where it's really been all along,

absent the repuke-capitalist funny-money games of the past generation--about 6500.

capitalism has metastisized and is devouring our planet and everything on it, including itself.

[Drifter]

43. Good ...

I just dumped my entire retirement account, and am in the process of buying mutual funds. Looks like I am taking advantage of the market drop while my money is out of it. Hopefully tomorrow it will stop dropping.

Cheers
Drifter

[OllieLotte]

56. I think that is wise. n/t

[ChairmanAgnostic]

44. DOW DOWN 270

massive sell offs in T-bills and bonds, massive liquidation taking place across all markets. Euro and asian markets set to fall further.
OIL will hit below 70.

The dow is now 10% lower than its high last month. We are talking trillions.

[Xenotime]

47. Good bye American economy...

[shadowknows69]

52. Fuck it, let it come

nothing else is going to wake up the perpetually comfortable in this country except some severe discomfort.

[deutsey]

53. 291 now

:evilfrown:

[ChairmanAgnostic]

54. DOW down 305

oil down almost 3, and may crash through $70.

It is no longer the sky is falling. The galaxy is collapsing.

[shadowknows69]

55. Might be time to stock up on some water and unperishables

Nothing make rich people crazier than not being rich anymore.

[OllieLotte]

57. The sky is falling! n/t

[shadowknows69]

58. Probably not

but I used to be a Boy Scout so "Be Prepared" is kind of ingrained.

[Virginia Dare]

62. They'll be holed up in their gated communities..

guns at the ready...waiting for the rabble to come with pitchforks and torches.

[Jack Rabbit]

63. The stock market has been overrated for a long time

It may be heresy to say so here, but that goes back into the Clinton years.

For over thirty years, wealth in America has been increasingly maldistributed. It was sometime during the Reagan years that the numbers of rich and poor together exceeded the numbers of the middle class. Clinton slowed the rate of the maldistribution, but he failed to reverse it. When the Dow went over 10K, Wall Street cheered but for the rest of us it meant nothing.

Bush's minions tout the great economic figures and praise their demigod. It's all blue smoke and mirrors. Calling a job a manufacturing job doesn't mean anything when burger flipping has been redefined as a manufacturing job. As Paul Krugman said, when the figures say people should be happy and they're not happy, then you're looking at the wrong figures.

The stock marking is falling through the paper-machiet pedestal the MSM put it on years ago. Big deal. At least when the market crashed in 1929, it really was an indication that the economy was in the toilet. By now, it's been there for a long time and it's just catching up to Wall Street.

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. We passed the magic 10% mark for a correction

I would not YET call it a crash... but some more days of this... and you can

Take into account Black Tuesday happened becasue they didn't have all the trade stoping measures we have today

So if we have a crash, (and at this point will not shock me), it will happen in a matter of weeks

(which it is),

[lutefisk]

68. A chart gives some perspective. Here's a two year DOW chart:

http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/2y/_/_dji

[ChairmanAgnostic]

69. got one of 1929?

it had the same 2 yr rise.

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. It's not a Crash YET

but a couple more weeks of this, and yes, it will be

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. This is a nice summary

One strategist was worried about the sentiment on Wall Street. "Feels like we're on the edge of a panic to me," Jeffrey Saut, chief investment strategist at Raymond James, said to Bloomberg News. "In our business, psychology is everything and psychology has changed real quick on Wall Street."

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. And just like that... it goes to the 230s territory

is the fed injecting funds?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

76. some one did something at the end of the day.

it wasn't so much a broad based reversal, as much as someone behind the scenes, doing their best to keep a meltdown from melting down.

It was not soros, buffett, or other individual funds. Hell, three large hedge funds closed their doors forever today. two mortgage companies shut down and quit writing new business, and countrywide will go BK after tomorrow.

was it some underlying group who control the Fed.Res? trying to save the market? possibly. It was not China, Europe, Russia, Japan, or any other country or governmental move.
then again, those with real money and real power do their best to maintain an incredibly low profile.

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. I am betting on the Feds and Bernacke

the only problem is that the medicine ain't working and will make the disease far worst when it finally kicks in (it has, but you know what I am saying)

[ChairmanAgnostic]

78. oh hell yes, what ewe sed.

tomorrow is the real worry. another black friday. it will be so wild, that the president will take a vacation from his vacation and say something sat or sun.

the options market is a heavily computerized multi-trillion dollar way of avoiding and predicting and profiting from risk. Think of it as a hedge fund on steroids, but without the controls. Tomorrow is accounting day, as their peculiar quarter ends. that means that investors that will lose the entire value of their gamble either sell tomorrow, or lose everything. I'd guess that they sell tomorrow. on top of that, the hedges themselves have investments, based on derivatives, which are based on mixed markets, which are based on differently valued groups of securities, etc, which just took a muhammed ali to the chin, and those (most of them) which still will open their doors are looking for one thing - survival. tomorrow is a day that will close with more movement and action than our markets have ever seen. NO ONE wants to be left holding the empty bag over the weekend.

Put yourself in the shoes of the options head of any financial company, or even those millions of option traders who delude themselves that they can beat faster, smarter programming trading.
what would you tomorrow, knowing that you MUST move on all your current options that expire tomorrow? Gonna reinvest on some bull market? keep the cash and pray, wait and pray some more? Or decide that this was a temporary blip that will pass like the moonlight? I suspect many of them will hold back and NOT reinvest, not all at once, and then the liquidity of the market will really take a hit, far larger than what the chairman pumped into the top companies.

today's cheers at the closing bell were hollow. desperate. a temporary eye of the storm that will certainly follow. As hollow as is the mountain that some have built on really dicey investments. Some claim that the 90 Billion pushed in by the Fed did not make it to the middle companies, and therefore illiquidity was a matter of time, not effort. bullshit. illiquidity is caused by many smart people pulling back, realizing the true extent of Bush policies and the mess he put us in.