Is there anyone that could die without bringing out vitriol in a small minority here?

[zappa_parappa]

I'm just wondering if there is anyone who has lived such a blessed existence that moments after their death unkind words won't be spewed forth about them?

Can anyone think of a person?

Neither can I. How sad.

[Book Lover]

1. I'm sure when Fred Rogers passed, there were folks who clamored about how we shouldn't care

After all, what did Mr Rogers ever do for the Democrats.....

[lancdem]

2. I can't

:(

[Bluebear]

3. k/r brother

[mwb970]

4. My gripe is the excessive media coverage.

I'm sorry she died. I just don't want to hear about it any more.

[mentalsolstice]

13. But there are still people who haven't heard

People are still at work in my time zone...so it's fair that it's on the news for them when they get home. If it's still news 24/7 a couple of days from now, then I would say the media's priorities are a little misplaced. But I'm saddened by her death. I'm saddened by the lives that pop celebrities live these days...not many of them seem very happy.

[LanternWaste]

80. To show you how out of the loop I am on pop culture...

To show you how out of the loop I am on pop culture, when someone at work asked me if I had heard about her death this afternoon, I had to ask who she was. When I got an answer, I asked him why/how her death is relevant or newsworthy. I received a blank stare.

Either I should start reading people magazine and watching Entertainment Tonight more often, or get used to bank stares, I guess...

[Beelzebud]

87. Then turn the fucking TV off for a day....

You don't *have* to watch news channels, or even TV at all. If you don't like that they are spreading the news of someone's death, don't watch it! If you are listening to a radio station and they're talking about it, turn it off!

You can even Hide Threads.

Frankly I'm with you. I don't want to hear about it either, so I turned the TV off, and started hiding threads as they get in my way.

[TwilightZone]

5. Look on the bright side - it seems to single out the compassionate among us.

Unfortunately, it seems to do the opposite, as well.

[Marie26]

6. Kucinich? nt

[zappa_parappa]

8. Hmm...maybe

I wonder what the response was when Paul Wellstone died. I'd be interested in seeing what was posted then.

[sniffa]

7. no. never gonna happen

besides, it's fun to mock the dead since they can't fight back.

[TwilightZone]

9. I think the closest we've come is Paul Wellstone.

My memory may be faulty, but I don't recall much bad being sad about him on DU at the time of his death.



Edit: clarification

[zappa_parappa]

10. Yeah, i just posted that I'd be curious to see what was posted back then

seems like theres not much bad you could say about him.

[Bridget Burke]

20. I seem to recall complaints about Wellstone's memorial service....

And how it was turned into a "political rally." Just visitors passing on the latest Right Wing Talking Point.

Most of these bozos were later Tombstoned. (And I've danced on plenty of those Virtual Graves!)

[TwilightZone]

40. I do recall that, but the complaints weren't about Wellstone himself, of course.

The argument was between those who felt that the memorial service was exactly what he would have wanted and those who thought it was a rally.

As you alluded to, I suspect that a lot of the "bozos" were trolls.

[Bluebear]

11. Evidently celebrities are less than human.

Anything to do with the death of someone in pop culture is immediately "lounge" at best, and "who cares!" at worst.

[treestar]

25. That's not it

It's that we don't know them personally.

If I am to feel a celebrity's death as if it were a family death, then I'd go crazy. And also I should be likewise affected then by the death of everyone who died in the tsunami, or in Iraq (including the Iraqis).

Human beings can only go so far with this stuff. This is a woman we never spoke to. Her loved ones feel terrible, that's true, and we can acknowledge that, but a public figure's death is not going to create that much compassion in those who weren't her fans.

[Redstone]

12. No. Not even Andy Stephenson.

Redstone

[Raine]

14. No, not here in the DU

when someone dies the compassion goes out the window within the same crowd, never fails. :-(

[smoogatz]

15. Me.

Because when I croak, I'm not telling all y'all motherfuckers.

On edit: but seriously, I think the vitriol is more about the fake outpouring of grief and the absurd media frenzy created by any/all celebrity deaths. There's also the annoying revving of the DU bogus-compassion machine, which frankly makes me a little crazy sometimes. Can't speak for anyone else, of course.

[AlCzervik]

19. lol.

thanks for the giggle.

[TwilightZone]

33. Perhaps the compassion isn't bogus.

Compassion for someone who died at 39 shortly after losing a child probably shouldn't require much faking.

[smoogatz]

35. Compassion for the person, or the story?

If you didn't know her personally, yes, I question your compassion. What you're feeling is sympathy--the "thank God it ain't me" emotion.

[TwilightZone]

45. Are you saying that we should only have compassion for people we know personally?

I doubt you're going to get a lot of agreement on that point. I think Cindy Sheehan, for example, could feel compassion for military parents she's never met. Her understanding of their situation could transcend sympathy.

[smoogatz]

47. So wait--you're comparing Anna Nicole Smith to Cindy Sheehan?

Maybe you should think about that one for a minute or two, before you post it.

Oops...

On edit: re-read your post, and it appears that you're actually comparing yourself to Cindy Sheehan, and your deep sense of loss about the passing of Anna Nicole to Cindy's sense of connection to other parents/family of soldiers killed in Iraq. Whew! For a minute there I thought you had a lug-nut loose.

Uh, hm--lemme read this again, just to make sure... Uh, well--might want to check those lug-nuts before you head out on the interstate...

[TwilightZone]

61. Not at all.

Wow, you sure are reading a lot into someone you don't even know. Namely, me.

First of all, I'm not talking about me. Someone who relates to some part of Smith's situation - the death of a child or the death of a family member at 39, for example - could certainly feel compassion.

You apparently disagree. Perhaps you believe that you have to know someone personally to feel compassion.

Or, perhaps more likely, you believe that Smith specifically isn't worthy of compassion.

Interesting, either way.

"Thank God it's not me", by the way, isn't sympathy. It also isn't indicative of my response to the situation because my life will never remotely resemble hers.

[TankLV]

44. BINGO! That's the WHOLE point!

It's not that we don't have compassion - it's just that the orgasm of phoney "concern" is way overblown to the subject matter at hand...

[roguevalley]

55. if that is the case -phoney concern- then people need to speak

to that. mocking a dead woman is as low as it gets. all deaths diminish us. too bad dead isn't good enough for some people.

[Booster]

76. Made me laugh outloud. Thanks for that.

[Dr Fate]

16. Sorry- some of us are tired of having crap shoved down our throats.

I am sorry that she died so young- but I wont miss her infommercials or bad "reality" TV shows.

I cant think of anyone who has lived a "blessed existnece"- but I can think of people in society and culture who I would actually mourn and who's contributions I will miss upon death.

What is going on is that we are so desparate for a viable culture for our own time that we are willing to make Anna our "Marylin" even w/o the talent, iconic photos or good movies.

I am sorry when any innocent human dies- but I dont have to pretend that her "work" was anything worthwhile.

[zappa_parappa]

17. Thanks for turning my thread into another 2 minute hate

I'm not asking you to mourn her, I'm just saying we don't need to talk shit about people before the corpse is even cold.

[Dr Fate]

22. Where is the "hate" in my post? It was an observation about pop-culture.

Fair enough- but if you dont want people who disagree with you to post, then dont start an "I am better than you because I'm nice about Anna" thread that invites disagreement.

[Madspirit]

83. Pop Culture

I hate it when people use that like a bad thing. Pop culture. Popular culture. The here and now of things. I care a lot about popular culture. It's the world I live in.
Lee

[Dr Fate]

90. I'm not saying it is always bad. I adore and PREFER Pop-Culture at it's best.

I would love to hear your responses to my related comments in this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=161122&mesg_id=161122

[Madspirit]

91. I promise..

I will read it and comment but right now I'm watching Buffy. <g>
Lee who will be back in a bit.

[Madspirit]

92. I read it

I read your thread on pop culture. I don't really agree but will get back to you. Maybe I will start another thread on why pop culture matters.
You did make some good points in your comparisons to Anna and Marilyn though I don't even totally agree with what you say there.

Later.
Lee

[Balbus]

37. Then close you fucking mouth if you don't want crap shoved down your throat!!

You have control of what you want to look at or listen too! Jesus-fucking-christ! You see something on tv you don't want to watch - change the channel. Change internet sites, radio stations - whatever you need to do! But don't jump into a pool of shit and then whine when a turd gets in your eye.

[Dr Fate]

41. So I should log off of DU, a POLITICAL forum?

Shouldnt posts about apolitical celebrity models, dead or alive be in the Lounge?

Shouldnt I be able to turn on the NEWS and hear about- GASP- News?

If I was to avoid garbage in the manner you suggest, I would need to move to a cave, much less remove DU from my favorites.

Who is whining? If I'm whining, then we all are.

[TwilightZone]

50. Last I checked, there were plenty of non-political threads on DU in GD.

Should we remove them all?

I have yet to see an Anna thread in GDP. If one showed up there, I could see a case for moving it.

It's not politics, but like it or not, it's news.

[Dr Fate]

53. I dont disagree- I still say the cult-of-celebrity is crap.

It is so out of control that disagreeing with the cult-of-celebrity itself in this instance is seen as not being compassionate for the deceased.

I'm not sure what your point is- mine was that this and other fake news stories-along with a whole bunch of really crappy TV shows, music and movies too-is being shoved down our throats.

The fact that it it all finds itself here at DU does not negate anything- it confirms my position/frustration that it is difficult to avoid.

[TwilightZone]

63. Re: "shoved down our throats". By whom?

Just because it's here, you have to react to it? I disagree. If you don't want to deal with it, ignore it. There are thousands of threads on DU - I'm reasonably certain that you can find some that don't involve Anna Nicole Smith.

It's just like anything else on DU. If people weren't interested in it, there wouldn't be discussions about it.

[Dr Fate]

66. Crap is shoved down our throats by TV, newspapers, focus groups and corporations.

I agree that I could unplug my TV and my computer, my radio and cancel my newspaper and avoid all of it. Oh- I would have to stop going to grocery stores or any store at all as well.

Know any good caves?

I thought I might put forth the crazy notion that I shouldnt have to go to those extremes.

Hell, I even think we could do better, we could actaully have people with talent to look up and post threads about if we wanted them.

[TwilightZone]

71. I understand, but it's really nothing new, and it's not going to change.

Blame it on trying to fill a bunch of 24/7 "news" stations. They're all in a competition to scream out the headlines first and have their little exclusives.

So, what's so different about now? We've been the same "fluff" society for decades, and we've been overloaded with crap at least as long as CNN has been on the air.

Nothing's really changed. Did your bullshit filter just quit working? :)

The point I'm trying to make is that there are plenty of alternatives. All of the sources you mentioned - TV, internet, radio, newspaper, etc., - all have plenty of information on all kinds of things. So, why get worked up about "fluff" news coverage when you can simply ignore it and move on?

Control the things you can control, pay attention to the stuff that you find important, and just ignore the rest. Otherwise, you'll just drive yourself nuts.

[Dr Fate]

73. Actually, there used to be good TV shows and good songs on the radio.

There used to be good movies too.

There used to be good investigative journalists and there used to be networks who provided news as a public service- so I disagree with you that it has always been this way. Pop culture has reached critical mass- we are truly living in an age of crap.

Having said that, I appreciate the tone and sentiment of your response- I could almost agree with you on the "pay attention to the stuff that you find important, and just ignore the rest"- but there is nothing wrong with wanting more-shrugging and saying "it is not going to change" is one way- but we used to have these things.

These days you have to search for things that are worthwhile, they rarely find you anymore.

[TwilightZone]

79. Agreed, mostly.

I agree that there's a lot of "crap" around. The internet, in particular, has made it ridiculously easy to prop up *anything* and to give eternal life to things that should have, if you'll pardon the expression, died quickly and quietly.

I agree that it hasn't always been like this, but things really haven't changed much in a lot of years. Responsible journalism seems to have largely died about the time of Bush vs. Gore and the rise of Faux Noise. A lot of things died when Bush became president, though some of them were in decline for years before. Coherent communication, for one. Debate used to be an art form. Now, it's a yelling match on Fox.

Sensationalism has been around a long time, too. Shows like Entertainment Tonight have been around forever, and people obviously watch them, or they wouldn't survive. So, part of the blame in the decline of entertainment belongs squarely on the shoulders of the public. When a movie gets a 3% rating on a movie-rating site and still manages to be the #1 movie in the country, one can only conclude that the public doesn't exactly demand much out of their entertainment. That makes you the exception; not the rule. :) And, don't get me started on the idea of Fox viewers deciding what "talent" is.

I came to the conclusion a few years ago that the only way to survive is to adapt. I discovered that I spent way too much time bitching about stuff that didn't really matter and that I couldn't control. So, I try to just worry about the big stuff and not waste a lot of time on the "crap".

The jury is still out on whether it works or not. And, honestly, I have no idea why I'm even in the Anna Nicole threads in the first place. It's like a car crash, I guess. Can't...look...away.

As you noted, it's difficult to limit your exposure to stuff that is worthwhile. I rarely listen to the radio, I don't watch much TV with the exception of certain sports. I quit reading the local newspaper except for a quick browse of the online version. I'm a die-hard news junkie, but I get it pretty much all online, and a lot of it from foreign sources like the BBC. I even "quit" DU for months at a time, in part because of the hyperbole factor that tends to rear its ugly head from time to time.

So, I understand where you're coming from and, for the most part, I agree. I guess all you can do is try to limit your exposure to the "crap", while still getting the information you want. It can be a lot of work, but if it keeps the blood pressure down, it's probably worth the effort.

Edit: and, for heaven's sake, will you QUIT posting in Anna Nicole threads already!??!? Geez. :P

[Dr Fate]

84. Thanks! And no, I will not! ;) n/t

n/t

[TwilightZone]

86. *snort*

Yeah, I was afraid of that. Don't say I didn't warn you.

:toast:

[onenote]

59. I'm sorry, but isn't there a separate GD- Politics Forum

So are you saying that nothing should be in GD that shouldn't also be in GD-P?

[Dr Fate]

64. You got me on that one point. I still think it is Lounge fluff. n/t

n/t

[Balbus]

60. How about clicking on a different thread?

Is that so hard? About 10% of the threads (in the GD Forum) are talking about or are related to Anna Nicole Smith - that leaves 90% for you. You were not drug in to this thread or other ANS threads - you clicked on them.

[Dr Fate]

69. that does not negate a single one of my charges.

Fact is, there is a huge cult of celebrity- and I mean celebrity for its own sake- just being famous but producing nothing-that and other similar things are being shoved down or throats and most of it is based upon useless, talentless crap.

It so out of control that people who point it out are yelled at by by folks whining under the aegis of "disrespect for the dead."

[Balbus]

74. Then why pursue this "huge cult of celebrity" when you don't need to?

I'm not saying it isn't there, I'm just saying it's avoidable - if you really want to avoid it. But some people go out of their way to show indignancy at something - and you're one of those people. It's like walking into a bar and complaining because you see drunk people. Stay out of the bar!

[Dr Fate]

77. Who says I dont need to? Why do you respond to my posts?

Do you respond to my posts for the same reason I respond to this thread- to express disgreement?

I am talking about our cult-of-celebrity because I think it is interesting and relevant to our current times- I think it helps to exaplain our current mentality- hell, it may even explain why certain unqualified candidates get elected over qualified ones.

Your "dont discuss it if you dont like it" method does not help anything and does nothing to solve the problem. I dont use that method for other issues that I care about- and I care about culture & pop-culture- I think it matters.

Besides, it is not practical, it is impossible to avoid the negative aspects of today's culture- it is everywhere but in that cave you would have me live in.

Would you rather the news be talking about this or things like this, or something more worthwhile? That is really all I am saying-- and YES- I am indeed using this thread & this context as a forum to say it.

"go out of their way to show indignancy at something"- maybe so- but it is happening on both sides- folks are going out of there way to be indignant about folks who are saying that she was not that great.

[TankLV]

46. We try to change the channel, but it's on EVERY FUCKING PLACE!

The cartoon channel is getting real stale...

THIS CRAP IS FORCED DOWN OUR THROATS - EVERYWHERE!

and that's the whole point - it's way too much fucking publicity out of all proportion to the subject matter...

[Dr Fate]

48. We cant even escape it in a POLITICAL forum. Apolitical celebs belong in the LOUNGE.

Tank- your other posts on this crystalize my thoughts to a tee.

The cult of celebrity is so out of control that disagreeing with the cult of celebrity itself is seen as a lack of compassion.

[charlie]

56. Lol

You got a double blast out of it -- overweening sanctimony and a shot of bile. For disagreeing.

It seems all someone's gotta do is die and suddenly they're One Who Matters.

[Balbus]

58. There're 75+ threads on the first page of the GD forum.

By my last count, there were 7 talking about Anna Nicole Smith, or Anna Nicole Smith related matters. But you come in here, with your mouth WIDE open, and complain about having shit shoved down your throat when you could be participating in any of the other 68+ threads on the front page of the GD forum that ARE NOT talking about Anna Nicole Smith.

You're the type of person that complains about the shit on TV while at the same time not missing an episode of American Idol, aren't you....

[Dr Fate]

62. You seem very angry at me for some reason.

I apologize for not really caring for whatever it was that Anna Nicole did- and I apologize double for saying so.

Go ahead and watch your collection of Anna's TV commercials and reality TV shows since you think they warrant so much defense.

Fact is, I was going to post a Lounge thread about how pop-culture has reached critical mass before I even heard the "news"- so I'm glad this "important news" has given me the opportunity to discuss it in the context of a very current example.

In that respect, perhaps we agree that her death is important afterall.

[Balbus]

65. Eh, just a low tolerance for whiners.

Especially when the whiney can avoid the circumstances that's causing him/her to whine.

[Dr Fate]

67. If I'm whining, so are you.

Seems like we are both complaining about one thing or the other.

[Balbus]

72. When a parent educates a child about throwing an unnecessary,

and very avoidable tantrum, is the parent whining? You came into this thread throwing a tantrum about having crap shoved down your throat, when you were the only person who put the crap into your mouth in the first place.

[Dr Fate]

75. I see- so you, the parent, is teaching me, the child, how to mourn the death of a TV celebrity.

I am so sorry that my critique of pop culture and the cult-of-celebrity has upset you to the point of cussing me out and accusing me of being childish.

I have made my point- what is yours?

Is it that we should not be disrespectful of the dead? Agreed and point taken, but we seem to agree to disagree as far as everything else.

[Critters2]

51. Thank you.

I'll probably die without accomplishing much, too. But it won't make this kind of news.

[CabalPowered]

18. Hunter S. Thompson passed without much trouble here

[Dr Fate]

34. Hunter and H.L Mencken taught us the folly of giving a free pass to the deceased.

See Hunter's Nixon Obituary that was inspired by Mencken's William Jennings Bryant obit...

I'm not saying a talentless model was anything like an oportunist politician-As I said, it is never good when an innocent person dies- but that does not mean we have to like what they did while living.

[WinkyDink]

21. 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue comes to mind.

[LoZoccolo]

23. No. Not even Jimmy Carter. n/t

[enigmatic]

24. it's not a small minority

There are some now who are screaming about how horrible others are about not treating ANS's death w/ proper respect who went scorched-earth on people like Reggie White, Pope John Paul etc when their bodies were barely cold. It's just another day at DU, where raging hypocrisy is never in shor supply.

[terrya]

26. The Dalai Lama?

[TheBaldyMan]

27. who died?

[mikelewis]

36. Anna Nicole Smith

... and a few thousand Iraqi's but mainly Anna Nicole Smith.

[MonkeyFunk]

28. evidently not

people have to show that they're too cool for school by being assholes immediately after somebody's death.

Can't they go to a local funeral home and insult the mourners, instead? Why do they have to do it here?

[hughee99]

29. It's certainly not the Steve Irwin,

Given some of the discussions I've had, Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter, Betty Ford, and even Jerry Lewis won't be that person either.

I don't know that any politician will every really be that person, someone will always remember the 1 vote that pissed them off, or the fact that they "didn't do more about X" and bring it up if everyone else seems to be fawning over the person. Wellstone came close but I think I recall this happening even to him (in a very small amounts).

Maybe John Stewart or Stephen Colbert?

[zappa_parappa]

42. John Stewart used the word douchebag, so hes out n/t

[hughee99]

57. I hadn't even though of that...

Colbert better watch his language!

[stanwyck]

68. and he also commits the unpardonable sin

of including liberals as targets...like his video clips of the Democratic candidates at their retreat last weekend, trying to "out humble" each other. "Why, I was so poor..." Poor Joe Biden had bill collectors at the back door. Dennis Kucinich's family were renters, not owners. But Vilsack had them all beat. An orphan, adopted by the most wonderful people in the world. His sainted adoptive mother died; she was an alcoholic...
Yes. Stewart dares to poke fun at all of us. Damn him.
He'll get his come-uppance at DU when he passes.

[druidity33]

30. Desmond Tutu?

Wangari Mathai? (i'm sure i'm not spelling that right) Joseph Wilson? Seymour Hersch?

Or are you only talking about candidates?

[Duer 157099]

31. Absolutely. * or shooter n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

32. I'm sorry for ANS's family...

... but is this not illustrative of our unhealthy fixation on celebrity?

She's a celebrity because she (was) a very wealthy playboy model.

I feel more sympathy for the families of the soldiers who died today. They lack the billions with which to comfort themselves.

[Marie26]

38. I'm not sure she had rich family

Her family were lower-class Southerners & estranged; her baby is too young to know; her husband was a leech. I'm not sure many people truly cared about her at all, & that's what's sad. It is an example of someone who seemed to become caught up in, and destroyed by, our celebrity culture.

[Critters2]

54. What's sad is the millions of people no one cares about

who aren't making millions from convenient marriages or photo shoots.

This woman had a good life. Better than most.

[Madspirit]

81. Nope

Being exploited for you boobs, losing a son and dying at 39. Not a good life. Not at all.

Still, if it makes some sad, why does that make others come out of the woodwork to harass, rather than just ignore?

It stuns me the number of threads all about...the right to offend, the right to be insensitive, the right to NOT care.

It's odd and off-putting, imo.

Lastly, caring about ANS doesn't make me NOT care about others. My heart's abilities are not finite.
Lee

[Critters2]

52. Hear! Hear!!

This is non-news.

[spanone]

39. Lemme think......naw.

[TankLV]

43. Is there anyone who is a non-entity who could die in PEACE and not have all the phoney phuss the

whore media makes of it?

That's what I want to know!

[ecstatic]

49. Kucinich maybe

I can't see anyone having anything hateful to say about him.

:shrug:

[SmokingJacket]

70. Some people are just so happy it wasn't THEM who died

that they express that weird relief in inappropriate ways.

My take on it, anyway.

[Madspirit]

78. Molly and Ann

When Molly Ivins and Ann Richards died I certainly hope there was no vitriolic crap here. I didn't see any.

ANS makes me sad too. Not as much or in the same way, obviously. Still, a motherless baby left behind. An exploited life. Not long after losing her son. Some people have to make it about something ugly.
Lee

[Bonobo]

82. There was plenty of vitriol about Molly. Nader haters SLAMMED her wickedly.

And disgustingly. One "gentleman" in particular. A self-proclaimed chemist and nuclear expert...

[Madspirit]

85. I don't understand

I don't like Nader and I love Molly. I even once knew her, many years ago. What am I missing.
Lee

[TwilightZone]

88. She voted for Nader in 2000.

That didn't sit well with a lot of people. She did it for a variety of reasons, but she also knew that a vote for Gore in Texas wouldn't really mean much.

http://www.freepress.org/columns/display/1/2000/198

[Madspirit]

89. She shouldn't have...

...but I still adore the ground she walked on.

It's true. In Texas we could have written in Rocky and Bullwinkle, it would not have mattered. Our state, of course, would carry Bush. So...I don't hold it against her..
Lee