Iraq - before the US Gov't ordered its Armed Forces to invade, slaughter a million, drive 1/4 of

[ConsAreLiars]

of the people out of their homes, and maim and torture unknown millions more. I carried a version of this image, produced by the Fellowship of Reconciliation and several other groups, as a sign before and after the invasion began. Compare this to what the PNAC/corporatist monsters and their enablers (in both parties) have done to that innocent land and people.



For the after, images of men, women and children maimed and murdered by US troops, just following orders and doing their jobs as a part of an amoral imperialist war machine, see http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_mar2003.htm . There are 20 pages, and two more sets from later years: http://www.robert-fisk.com/the_evidence.htm and http://www.albasrah.net/index1.html . Thousands of pictures. This is the truth of what the government of US and its military apparatus has done to the people of Iraq. I'll spare you the discomfort of seeing something you'd rather not think about, but you already know the kinds of images that are at those links. But if you won't even look at what is being done "in our name," think about what that says about the horrors being committed by "our troops."

And think also about what being a participant in those atrocities is doing to our kids. They are either being turned into monsters, or into cripples. Not heroes, other than in some very narrow context of acting bravely when in danger.

(edit to correct a minor grammatical error)

[az chela]

1. SUCH BEAUTIFUL SOULS

How could anyone harm them??????Mans inhumanity to man is heartbreaking !!!!
We sure are devolving

[ConsAreLiars]

6. Indeed. Just children with no clue that a monster

was planning mass murder in their country. Innocents.

[sanskritwarrior]

2. Here we go again

for 1 million dead iraqis to be a relevant number, over 600 Iraqis need to have been killed every single day.......But how many of Iraq's provinces have daily attacks that kill dozens, enough to get to the 600 number?

Not the three Kurdish provinces, if more than 5 or 10 people are killed a day in the Kurdish zone it would be bigger news......

Sorry, I find this study quite as laughable as the Lancet study, notice I am not doing some tap dance where I defend the war, I am saying that for this study to be correct, 600+ Iraqis would have to die everyday, if you can prove that using real numbers I would enjoy being wrong. But I know I'm not wrong.......And there's the rub........

[az chela]

3. All this suffering for the rich have mores so they can control

the masses of us who are the slave race and the poor Iraqi's are slaughter for them.It breaks my heart that no one will stop this

[Xipe Totec]

4. It's easier to stay in your dreamworld if you stick you fingers in your ears,

close your eyes, and yell la,la,la very loud.

Because it's really important to quibble about the exact number of dead Iraqis we are leaving behind every day.

As long as we don't really know what the number is, we can always claim that zero is just as good a guess as any.

[sanskritwarrior]

7. Well since I'm one of those

"poor saps" :eyes: in the Army, it does matter to me the exact number that are being killed.......

And sorry haters, I don't believe the US military gets credit for people killed by Red on Red (i.e. events like the bombings yesterday).......Just my humble blue dog opinion.......

[lapfog_1]

16. That's a very odd attitude...

That's very much like saying that you rolled through town, removing every traffic sign and light, and then take no responsibility for the resulting chaos and death.

Saddam was to Iraq as Tito was to Yugoslavia. He held the place together, kept the various factions from killing each other, and provided basic law enforcement. Yes, he was a nasty dictator, who modeled his rule after Stalin (his personal hero). A right bastard. But the people mostly got along, children grew up, many were educated (girls and boys), and progress toward a secular western style society was being made.

However, 10 years of UN sanctions created great hardships for his people (which, admittedly, Saddam was mostly responsible for by siphoning the hard currency for his regime rather than buying medicine and other products that the people needed). A good number of Iraqi children did die over this period, and we (along with other nations) are partly to blame for that policy. It was a misguided attempt to control a dictator without removing him.

We invaded under false pretenses. Iraq had no WMDs, had no Al Qaida, and did not attack us and had no plans to.

When we invaded, the first consequence was the removal of the lid to the pressure cooker that is the Sunni/Shia/Kurd rivalry and the years of Baathist rule. We are responsible. Yes, Saddam was likely to have been assassinated or removed at some point in the future without our help. Could the resulting chaos have happened then? Sure. But Iraq deserved the chance to get through that themselves, and if they didn't have the misfortune of sitting on the world's third largest reserve of oil, I'm pretty sure we would have let them.

[ConsAreLiars]

19. Well said. I f anyone cannot understand that this suffering was

the result the invasion, well, then, they just don't want to face facts. Whether those monsters who initiated this slaughter wanted this to happen (I think so) or were so utterly stupid and deluded (maybe some of those monsters) as to think that mass murder was a really good way to bring the one true religion or benevolent corporatism to the savages, is unclear. The innocent blood they have shed in service to imperialism is the same, in either case. People are justifiably outraged when one child is murdered. But when a a quarter or half million are murdered? Just a question of politics and national policy.

[malaise]

22. Great post n/t

[sanskritwarrior]

23. Yawn

thanks for the rambling.........But I don't ever remember defending the invasion of Iraq. I did however defend the honor of the United States Army which has been under daily attacks from ungrateful peeps here on DU lately......It's getting out of hand, I'm getting the offensive threads and posts pulled down as quickly as possible, but I am only one person and I miss a lot of the vitriol aimed at the troops because I am on duty from roughly 0630 to 1700 HST.......

[lapfog_1]

27. YOU said "I don't believe the US military gets credit for people killed by Red on Red"

meaning that you don't think the US has any responsibility for the chaos and sectarian violence that is currently happening in Iraq.

That's just an insane attitude.

Sorry if you think my cogent and ON POINT explanation was "rambling"... but you are no student of history nor (despite your claim of currently serving in Iraq) do you have any understanding of what's happened there in the last 5 years, much less the last 50 years.

We created the situation that has led to the slaughter of thousands of Iraqis. And the creation of well over two million more refugees. Is the death toll from US led actions a million? Who knows. How many children have died from entirely preventable disease because HALF of all Iraqi doctors have fled the country, not to mention WHERE would their mothers and father get the medicine needed? How many have died from car bombings and IEDs (not just the bodies counted at the scene, but died later in hospitals and/or homes)? How many undiscovered mass graves from execution squads have yet to be found? I've read that one reason that ethnic violence seems to have been dropping for the last month or so (except for this latest round of horrific car bombings) is that many if not most neighborhoods been been "cleansed" already... there simply AREN'T any Shia left in predominate Sunni areas and vice versa. That's a *lot* of people either displaced or dead. And one of Saddam's many policies he modeled after Stalinist Russia was the forced relocation of populations to create ethnically mixed (and more easily minority ruled) areas. We knew that he did this. We also knew or should have known that after the first Gulf War, when WE encouraged the Shia to revolt but didn't follow through with enough support to overthrow Saddam then, there was the inevitable Saddam/Baathist backlash against the Shia revolutionaries... DIRECTLY LEADING to the militant Sadr brigades AND THEIR DISTRUST of Americans, plus their thirst for revenge on all things Sunni/Baathist/Saddam.

We are responsible for much of this.

Pottery Barn Rule INDEED. (At least Colin Powell had this right)

And I'm not blaming the troops, so quit playing the victim. Very very FEW DU posters are anti troop.

[sanskritwarrior]

32. I don't think the US military

has very much responsibilit at all for the chaos and sectarian violence that is currently happening in Iraq. The US government on the other hand has all the responsibility and both parties have their fingers in the bleeding guts of Iraq.

Do you blame the powersaw when you cut the board wrong????

The US military is doing the job approved by the government of this nation. We are an instrument of war and destruction, not the cause of it.....And thanks for saying my opinion is insane, way to be non judgemental and oh so progressive....... :eyes:

[NNN0LHI]

36. The military is doing the job approved by the government of this nation. That don't make it right

To try and say whatever our military does is okay as long as it is sanctioned by our government is a slippery slope to go down. We all know that the sick shit that happened at Abu Ghraib prison and elsewhere was approved by odious people in the government of this nation. These government officials are war criminals nonetheless.

What happens when an army concludes it is taking orders from a criminal enterprise as this government has shown itself to be? Just keep soldiering on right over the cliff?

Don

[sanskritwarrior]

38. We stop obeying their orders

but one must prove they are criminals and the war in Iraq is a war crime.......as of today that doesn't look likely......

[Javaman]

30. pay no attention to sanskrit, he spouts this crap from time to time...

most who know him, igore him.

[sanskritwarrior]

31. But apparently not you

Interesting.....

Also how would you know that most ignore me? Did I miss the fan club meeting where all the faux progressives lined up to burn an effigy of what they think I look like? Or did I miss the meeting where the orders from High Priests of Faux Progressivism gave the orders to ignore me???? :rofl:

Thanks javaman, when I have a bad day, I just read some of your stuff and instantly feel better about myself. :patriot:

[Javaman]

34. ...

have fun with your bad self. ego much?

[ConsAreLiars]

5. You may laugh at the slaughter you paricipate in.

That is a natural form of denial and a well documented psychological defense mechanism. How many of the Fisk pictures that show what the US invasion forces have done to the people of Iraq did you look at. Zero, I suspect. Yeah, Johns Hopkins and Lancet are just lying. You know the truth and those academic studies using standard methods are wrong because you had a vision and the true numbers butchered are merely a half million? Glad that makes you feel better.

[sanskritwarrior]

8. LOL I have seen a lot of Fisk's work

I have seen a lot of Dahr Jamail's work, and many other pictures......I would bet that I have seen photos, videos, and first person images (with my eyeballs) of the death and destruction in Iraq moreson than almost any member on this board.........

I'm not denying anything, I admit to mass death in Iraq, the difference is that I do care what the numbers say......

So call me some more names or make more assumptions about me that you cannot prove, I do love it so..........

[ConsAreLiars]

10. OK, and those who order and commit those atrocities do so in the service of some "noble cause" so

the slaughter is somehow OK by you? I confess, I don't understand why you think that "only" a half million murders, or whatever your number may be, somehow makes the invasion and its consequences and the acts committed in pursuit of that "noble" (???) goal less than pure evil.

[sanskritwarrior]

11. Where did I ever say the invasion of Iraq was noble

not one time have I ever typed those words, so please do not attempt to misdirect others reading this by posting things I never said.

I never said 500,000 dead Iraqis is not something atrocious to behold, again you are playing fast and loose with what I said......

And are you saying anyone following legal orders in the military is pure evil?

Or are you saying anyone in the military following legal orders is less than noble for serving their country?

I am curious because you have had a lot of posts pulled down lately for your blatant attacks on the troops.....I'm trying to figure out where this dislike of American military personnel comes from, if you were an Iraqi I might cut you some slack, if you are a military washout I might also cut you some slack, if however you are neither, then your posts and vitriol aimed at anyone in the military that either:

A. Loves the military

or

B. Believes it is an organization that reflects the best of America

is troubling........Could you please explain before I make an opinion of you based on what you have actually written?

[ConsAreLiars]

12. If you can't read, then don't respond.

You claim that I've started threads that were anti-troop and deleted or locked. That is a lie. And if you can read, you will see I regard the both US troops and Iraqis as victims of the imperialist warmongers you seem to support. If you oppose those who order you to participate in war crimes, say so. If not, well then you are a fool who is being badly misled.

(edit to clarify - no thread I started was locked nor were any posts deleted that were anti-enlistee. That is simply because I have never blamed to tools for the way they were used. One recent thread that both you and I participated in was locked or maybe deleted, but I did not start it and none of my posts within it were deleted.)

[sanskritwarrior]

13. No

I claimed you had posts taken down that were objectionable to the moderators concerning your views of the troops........I stand by that claim........Not calling you a liar for denying it, but I'm fairly certain of what happened yesterday.......


I haven't engaged in any war crimes as far as I can see, the war in Iraq is as of today, August 16th, 2007 legal..........Now if Congress deauthorizes the war, then yes me going to Iraq after said deauthorizing would in fact be a war crime, but as of today, only soldiers that have besmirched their honor and broken faith with the UCMJ are guilty of war crimes......

So are you saying I am a fool because I refuse to disobey legal orders? Do you need an education on how the military works and what is and what is not legal war according to the government of the United States of America? Only a fool refuses to obey legal orders, only a fool thinks that he doesn't have to deploy to Iraq if he was issued legal orders........As of today those orders are legal......

Finally are you referring to the troops as tools?

[ConsAreLiars]

14. Point to one.

Of course you can't. For the record, this is not about you, unless you feel the monstrous acts pictured in the Fisk collections are something you claim credit for. As for your legalism that whatever the Chimpy/PNAC/Corporatist regime approves is OK by you, well, that is where the "tool" word becomes appropriate.

[sanskritwarrior]

15. So can you point me

to the Congressional resolution deauthorizing the war, or the Supreme Court ruling stating the war is illegal......That would be most appreciated.

Ranting and saying it is a PNAC scam when our Congress and our courts have refused to rule the war illegal is a bit childish.......

And it is irrelevant whether it is ok with me or not (here's aclue, no it's not ok with me), if it is legal according to our government then I must obey legal orders in accordance with my oath.....The second Congress deauthorizes the war or the courts rule it illegal, I will be more than happy to not deploy again, until then I am oath bound to follow legal orders.......

[sanskritwarrior]

24. Yeah I didn't think you could point me to those 2 things

because even you know I am right.......

[ConsAreLiars]

35. Sorry for not responding earlier.

I have a job where I take stuff and add labor and create value, you know. Try it some time, it is rather rewarding even if a bit hard at times. Compared to destroying things and mass murder, it is very rewarding. It also means I am not often reading DU at 1:09 AM on a workday.

As for your belief that your participation in the imperialist invasion and occupation of Iraq is morally or legally justified, because the government that ordered you and other good-meaning individuals to unleash hell on the people of that country has not yet declared themselves war criminals, well, whatever gets you through the day. If you know any history, or even pay attention to current events, relying on those who are committing crimes against humanity to declare themselves guilty is a bit of a fantasy, as is turning a blind eye to the evidence of those atrocities.

I understand that the reason you respond so frequently to many threads that condemn the atrocities being done to the people of Iraq is because your awareness that you are participating in a war of aggression creates serious conflict. You are fortunate. You resolve the conflict by transferring moral authority/culpability to those above you. Whatever works. And you are right. The responsibility for the crimes is not yours. In that we agree.

But what about the kids who have no clue about geopolitics? All they know is that they got put into a kill or be killed situation and neither option was one they would have chosen to put into their ideal future. Many will accommodate that fact by believing those they confronted in the country they were ordered to invade and occupy were demons, not human. They do so at the price of some of their own humanity. Others will suffer because they face the truth in their nightmares. A few, hopefully many, will reclaim their souls by devoting themselves to keeping others from that same fate.

[sanskritwarrior]

39. So you can't prove the war is in fact illegal???

You could have not posted all that meaningless crap and just answered the question. Flowery prose is nice and all, but if you can't prove that the war is illegal, just save us both the trouble......

1:09 A.M for you is not the same time for me........

Sport, I respond to your posts because I don't like you very much, you tiptoe on the line of calling us in the military bloodthirsty criminals and then play the innocent card when confronted. I haven't transferred anything, the war as of today is legal, if any Iraqis present a threat to me or the guys I am with, we will kill them with extreme prejudice. (Yes tabasco even I fire my weapon in Iraq from time to time) I will sleep well that night and the world will have one less person in it to threaten American soldiers....So before you try and say you "understand me" why not ask me what I think.


Finally are you saying that my job as a solider is limited to mass murder and destroying things? That's a pretty funny phrase for someone who says they never disparage the military forces of America.........

[ConsAreLiars]

40. There is a difference between a war of aggression

and fighting against foreign invaders. As you say, for the hapless tools being used to fight such a war, that distinction is just meaningless crap. It's just a matter of survival and the morality of the "cause" is irrelevant. If you are unwilling to distinguish between an unprovoked war launched by a criminal gang of psychopaths for the most vile of reasons and fighting to defend against such an invasion, well, that is just your point of view. So be it. Be happy.

[sanskritwarrior]

41. So you cannot prove the war is illegal?

again you respond with something completely off topic........

Cite for me the Congressional resolution deauthorizing the war, or the US Supreme Court ruling that makes the war illegal. I will be most happy to not go back to Iraq if you can cite those items........

If not then this war is legal as of today and everyday before it......saying something does not make it true.......

[ConsAreLiars]

45. It is utterly evil in every respect.

The criminals who initiated this war have not yet declared themselves guilty of crimes against humanity. Don't hold your breath. I doubt they will do so any time soon. That fact does not mean slaughtering a million Iraqis is moral -- or even profitable, if that the the scale one uses (some do) to measure such things. As for expecting the criminals to declare they are guilty of war crimes, that is a bit unlikely.

In the meantime, the people of Iraq are being butchered because those monsters chose to invade and conquer that land. You have to come to grips with your own role as a cog in in that machine. As you say, you are not the guilty party. In my words, not yours, just one more victim, a tool, a cog, and not at all to blame for what has been done. Claiming that your participation is OK because the murderers said so is not likely to get you very far for very long, but again, whatever works. If you had no conscience you wouldn't be so defensive, and that is itself is a good sign you are grappling with these questions.

[sanskritwarrior]

47. LMFAO

the level of evil about the war in no way, shape or form has anything to do with its legality........

So thanks for the psychoanalysis, but let's just say I think my brain and my heart lies in a different place then you presume......

So just for finality, you cannot prove the war is illegal, thank you for being honest, we are done here.

[ck4829]

48. This war has a lot in common with OJ Simpson then

Just because he was acquitted, then that must mean he didn't do anything wrong, right?

And we all know he was guilty, along with other criminals who have gotten off the hook. And we all know this war was illegal, just like how bad people can escape justice, then bad decisions can escape justice too.

I have yet to see how this quagmire is legal, "preemptive" seems to be code for aggressive.

[sanskritwarrior]

51. OJ was acquitted he didn't do it, so sayeth the law

As for the Iraq war, here is how it is legal.

The US Congress passed the Iraq War resolution

The US President signed off on the Iraq War Resolution

The US military executed the orders of the President that were codified into LAW by the US Congress..........

There you go that is what makes it legal, if you can cite for me any Congressional resolution or any Supreme Court ruling stating any of these three actions were ILLEGAL I would enjoy reading them as that would mean I don't have to deploy again.

The anti-war activists always scream the war is illegal and anyone with a dose of common sense of US Govt 101 can clearly see that they are wrong.......I applaud anyone working to end the war, but using the "war is illegal" lie just pisses me off.......It is not true and the anti-war activists can not prove it is true........And yet they still scream their heads off and expect reasonable people to side with them..........

[ConsAreLiars]

49. It's really not about you.

If you want to try the Nuremberg defense for your participation in in an unjust war, go for it. Fortunately for you, you are such an insignificant player that no one really cares, and if you have no moral qualms about the spilled blood of innocents, you should be just fine.

The point of the original post was simply to provide a reminder of the innocents who are being butchered in this war of aggression.

[sanskritwarrior]

50. Again that's nice and all

but the Nuremberg defense would apply to an illegal war, the Iraq war does not fit such a context and therefore no one needs to use that defense. The Iraq war is a completely legal war according to the US government, no one will ever be tried for war crimes in a legal war, no one will ever win a court martial by saying it is an illegal war. As far as the US government is concerned the war is legal. As far as I the soldier are concerned that legality is all I need to do what is asked of me. So again you cannot prove your point, your rhetoric is empty and we sir are done here.

[sanskritwarrior]

42. LOL

so by your definition anyone in the military that obeys Legal Orders to deploy is a tool.........

Again that is an interesting way to "support the troops".......

Prove the war is illegal and I and almost all other military personnel would be more than happy to not fight anymore.....The law is the law, if you can cite the law encoded by the Congress proving your point about the war's illegality do so......If not, then your argument has no leg to stand on.......

[OwnedByFerrets]

9. Thank you Cons.....nt

[ck4829]

17. Does it matter how many have died?

Innocent people have been murdered, it doesn't if 1, 100,000, or 1,000,000 got killed, but it is still 1 too many.

[sanskritwarrior]

18. It does matter

when people use numbers as weapons.......Both sides do it and neither side is accurate, so yeah it does kind of matter.......

[Common Sense Party]

20. I object strenuously to the terms "murder" and "slaughter"

That's not what our soldiers and Marines are there to do, and the overwhelming majority are doing their duty and following orders honorably, striving to minimize civilian casualties and fighting with much more restraint than any fighting force in history.

Are there sick nutjobs who go off the deep end and rape or murder innocents? Yes, a few, and we have seen many of them tried and convicted. And there are sick nutjobs in the civilian population here in the States that go off the deep end, as well.

Are there far too many civilian casualties, the so-called "collateral damage" so painful evident in any war? Yes, there are. I believe far, far more of them are Muslim vs. Muslim atrocities. But, yes, some of them have been caused by our troops. Unintentionally. A death is a death, but motive means much.

Should our troops even be there? No, they shouldn't have been sent in the first place, and it has become one entangling clusterf*ck since they have been there, and that has precipitated the Sunni vs. Sh'ia bloodbath we see now. But as long as our troops are there, they do not deserve to be called "tools" or "terrorists" or participants in a slaughter.

I appreciate your service, sir, and that of your fellow soldiers. I pray for your safe and quick return.

[ck4829]

21. This slaughter didn't exist before the invasion

I'm blaming policy and policy-makers for the scores killed, for the destruction, for the ethnic cleansing, and for whatever else is going on, not the people on the ground.

I'm getting the sense that automatically saying we're blaming the troops for what is going on is a red herring.

[Common Sense Party]

29. Red herring? The poster made the accusations against the troops,

not me. The poster wasn't just blaming the policy-makers.

He/she called the troops "tools," suggested they not obey orders, and accused them of participating in a slaughter and butchering.

On edit: "The slaughter didn't exist before the invasion" I said as much in my post. But we're THERE now. The bad decision has already been made.

[sanskritwarrior]

25. Thank you

that is exactly what I mean, thank you for expressing it so well.........

[ConsAreLiars]

37. You support the invasion? You think because most enlistees are not psychopaths

that it is a just war and the butchered children and adults are just "collateral damage"? How fucking sick is that? The invasion and occupation was ordered for the most evil of reasons, the lust for power and money. The soldiers are not to blame for the crimes they participate in any more than the postal worker is to blame for the junk mail you get.

And, just so you don't worry to much and lose any sleep, the "warrior" clerk whose welfare concerns you so much is in Hawaii an not in any immediate danger.

[sanskritwarrior]

43. Can he be concerned about me after Thanksgiving

when we deploy to Iraq.......

And I take it you are trying to insult me by calling me a clerk........Granted I do not patrol everyday, but even one such as me has been involved in combat......It might not be much combat but it still is what it is......

[Common Sense Party]

44. Do I support the invasion?

Where did I once give you an indication of that?

[ConsAreLiars]

46. Sorry, I meant the occupation that followed the invasion.

I should have been more precise.

[ck4829]

26. Just "collateral damage"

These children are just expendable objects to the people in charge of this war.

[Nihil]

28. Not just the ones in charge

There seem to be a not insignificant number of "noble heroes" over there
who treat Iraqis of all ages as "expendable objects".

[DU GrovelBot]

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