Screw the Natives, Appease the Drunken Bikers

[nosmokes]

FSM forbid that there be a 4 mile stretch of road where you can't buy booze.
--###--

original-indiancountry

Protest organizers plan smaller Bear Butte presence
Posted: August 13, 2007
by: The Associated Press

SIOUX FALLS, S.D. (AP) - American Indians again plan to have a presence at the upcoming Sturgis Motorcycle Rally to protest motorcycle noise, loud music and alcohol consumption around Bear Butte, but the gathering will likely be smaller.

Last year, Indians from around the United States and at least one other country confronted bikers in Sturgis, then walked to the natural land mass outside of town that they consider sacred.

For centuries, Indians from various tribes have come to the butte to pray, fast and hold religious ceremonies. They say noise from the bars and campgrounds disrupts the peace, and they want bikers to avoid those places.

Alex White Plume, former president of the Oglala Sioux Tribe on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, is again organizing this year's protest with his wife, but without issuing an invitation to other tribes.

''Last year we invited many nations. But this year we want people to come on their own,'' he said.

There's a gathering planned in Rapid City and an encampment at the base of Bear Butte on land owned by the Northern Cheyenne Tribe along Highway 79, he said.

''Within 4 miles we want to stop all alcohol sales and loud noise and desecration,'' White Plume said.

Efforts to pass such a buffer zone have failed at the county commission and Legislature.
~snip~
.
.
.
complete article here

[Sanctified]

1. Is Sturgis held on Reservation land? n/t

[bobbolink]

3. What difference does it make?

:shrug:

[Sanctified]

4. Oh I don't know maybe it's like Church's bitching about Porn Shops and Bars that are near them. n/t

[BlooInBloo]

5. Yah. Reservations and the people's needs there are JUST like that.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

7. Well it sounds kinda like that.

Natives have a right to peaceful quiet ceremonies, bikers have a right to peaceful loud ceremonies.

Whose right is interfering with whose here?

[Sanctified]

10. If Sturgis is held on reservation land the tribe can ban it.

If it's not on reservation land but held by some sacred site too damn bad. I do not want religious superstition dictating what can and can't be done, whether it be Native American, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism or Islam.

[Xithras]

12. Actually it IS the same situation.

Heck, I'd agree if the tribe wanted to ban camping and alcohol consumption ON the butte itself, but that's not what's being discussed here. They want to stop the bikers from cruising down a state highway and from camping in a state park because they find them offensive. What if they found blacks offensive? Would you still agree? The desires of the tribe to control land that is merely near or abuts their sacred site MUST be weighed against the equal access rights that all Americans enjoy. The road should be open to everyone, or closed to everyone. The state park should be open to everyone, or closed to everyone. It's that simple.

As for the alcohol thing, that should be a nonstarter to anyone who even slightly cares about freedom. They want to ban all alcohol saled within four miles of the mountain because it offends their religious beliefs? That is the EXACT same situation as churches trying to ban sex shops because they offend Christian morality. Religious morality of any flavor shouldn't factor into the actions of government.

[H2O Man]

28. "Actually it IS

the same situation. ....What if they found blacks offensive?" Exactly.

I think it was John Wayne who warned this nation about the Red Menace: "First they came for the drunken motorcyclists, then for the blacks." I can't remember the rest of it word for word, so I'll quote some of his insights from his May 1971 interview with Playboy:

"...There were great numbers of people who needed new land, and the Indians were selfishly trying to keep it for themselves. .... Years ago, I didn't have all the opportunities, either. But you can't whine or bellyache 'cause somebody else got a good break, and you didn't, like these Indians do. We'll ALL be on reservations soon if the socialists keep subsidizing groups like them."

He addresses the White Man's Burden in this sensitive way: " .... we can't all of a sudden get down on our knees and turn everything over to the leadership of the blacks. I believe in white supremecy until the blacks are educated to a point of responsibility. I don't believe in giving authority and positions of leadership and judgement to irresponsible people."

We need to honor St. John Wayne not only with a new coin, but also by making sure that bellyaching socialists and irresponsibly uneducated leaders control our land. We need more drunken cyclists holding the reins of power.

[G_j]

87. that is absolutely disgusting!

no surprise though

what a pig!

[sandnsea]

8. And city's pass zoning ordinances

to keep porn shops away from schools and churches.

[Sanctified]

13. The city of Sturgis can pass ordinances to ban bikers any time they please. n/t

[sandnsea]

17. No, they can't ban bikers

They can ban noise and various activities that bikers engage in, but not the bikers themselves. And they can ban alcohol from the spiritual locations as well. They would if bikers were getting drunk in the parking lot of any other church.

[bobbolink]

9. So, the Indians are only "bitching"

Thanks, now I know where you're coming from.

I hope your generation learns something about common courtesy soon.

byebye

[Sanctified]

11. Yeah they are.

They are trying to impose their religious superstition upon others, if any other religion did this I would give them the finger too. Sorry just the atheist in me I guess.

[H2O Man]

16. Right.

What's up with these darned Indians, anyhow? They seem almost, well, unAmerican to me. I think most of them are probably illegal immigrants. Those who aren't should have thought twice before coming here. Get with the program, like John Wayne used to say.

[bobbolink]

31. DAmned time we take away some of their land--give 'em something to REALLY "bitch" about..

Give 'em a cubit, they'll take an acre.

[H2O Man]

32. If they don't

like this country, they shouldn't have come here to begin with. Send them back to where they came from. Darn them.

[bobbolink]

35. It's their own fault for not following The True Religion!

If they prayed properly, a bit of noise near a heathen site wouldn't upset them.

[H2O Man]

40. John Wayne tried to help.

If anyone could have Saved the Indians, it was John. He knew their ways, from the movies he made. If the bikers would make a nice drive-in on the Indian's land, and played John Wayne movies, we would have peace.

[Raskolnik]

72. Man, you *really* want to talk about John Wayne, don't you?

Does it have anything to do with this story?

[uppityperson]

36. Exactly, unamerican natives, I mean, geesh.

[H2O Man]

41. Check their

green cards.

[uppityperson]

44. bet they don't have any, aliens without cards, belonging to soverign nations.

[Sanctified]

54. So you are cool with a Religion dictating what can and can't be done on private property. n/t

[H2O Man]

56. Gosh, no.

I was agreeing with you.

[martymar64]

107. Remember where that "private" property came from.

It was originally their land until we took it through crooked and broken treaties with a little bit of GENOCIDE thrown in for good measure.
They deserve to do alot more than just "bitch".

[Kajsa]

83. So, other people beliefs are " superstition"?

How broad minded and tolerant of you.

I could say atheism is a - fill in the blank- concept void of
meaning and purpose but I won't.

Why?

Because what you believe ( or don't believe) in is none of
my fuc*ing business, nor is it subject to my scrutiny.

Again, personal bias and prejudice trumps common
courtesy and civility.

[cgrindley]

137. Pretty much

all beliefs not founded in rational science and logic are superstitions. Why should religion get a pass on logic?

[Kajsa]

155. Cgrindly, you missed the point of my previous post

by a mile. Or, you chose to ignore it completely.

But that doesn't surprise me.

Like I said before,
how broad minded and tolerant of you.

[cgrindley]

157. So you'd be open minded and tolerant say of...

insert insane belief here? EG racism? No, of course you wouldn't. So why should religion get a pass?

[Kajsa]

158. You equate spiritual belief with

insanity and racism?

That tells me everything I need to know
about you.

Again, you avoided my main point like the plague.
But that's what you do

Main point- run, run, talk about anything else!

' nuf said.

[Matariki]

132. Atheism is a superstitious belief

- that anything you haven't or aren't able to experience can't possibly exist.

[cgrindley]

136. that's just dumb

it's a sad old chestnut, routinely trotted out by people who simply cannot comprehend that the lack of belief in magic unicorns is NOT a type of belief in itself.

PS I have never been to Australia, but I am convinced that it exists... proof you know... not a superstition.

[Matariki]

140. No, dumb is thinking you know it all.

Dumb is thinking you've grasped everything there is to grasp.

And rude is treating people's spirituality with contempt and disrespect even if you don't have the same world view.

[cgrindley]

147. Wrong

And rude is treating someone's "insert word other than religion here... eg Republican Politics" with contempt even if you don't have the same world view.

See? Why should religion get a pass from logic and rationality?

And disrespect? Please. People should respect one anothers' rights to have opinions, but there is NO onus to respect the opinion itself. Only the right to have one counts. Individual opinions may well be ignorant or stupid or irrational.

[ComerPerro]

168. that is a tired and pathetic talking point

especially coming from someone who is naive enough to refuse to believe in the tiny orange men who live in your computer and create electricity.

[Liberal Veteran]

170. Actually it's magical blue smoke that makes computers work. I have proof.

One time I wired up my computer wrong and it caused a reaction that let out all the blue smoke out my processor and it never worked again!

:D

[ComerPerro]

171. oh, yeah, sure. Must be comforting to "know" you have all the answers

lolz

[Liberal Veteran]

169. Well, no. Superstition is the belief in things based on things other than reason...

...such as faith, fear, irrational correlation between unrelated events (ie, "I spilled salt and now we have republican president, therefore, spilling salt is unlucky).

Most atheists I know base their atheism on the fact that there is no empirical evidence to support the existence of God (which is why they call it FAITH).

That would be the exact OPPOSITE of superstition.

[arikara]

138. So what if their religion offends your delicate sensibilities

just try walking in their mocassins why don't you. How would you like a bunch of offensive drunken potbelly pig harley assholes partying and whooping it up right next to your home?

[Heidi]

144. Don't blame the atheist in you. Most of the atheists I know are polite. (nt)

[Kajsa]

159. Thank you, Heidi!

Most atheists I know are polite, too.

But we have a couple here who aren't.
They are rude and obnoxious.

Fortunately, they are in the minority.

[theHandpuppet]

45. Don't you know that common courtesy is soooo yesterday?

Haven't you heard? Manners and common courtesies are just for anal-retentive elitists.

:sarcasm:

[bobbolink]

48. BUT... it's all the fault of *, right? He spoiled courtesy for all of us!

Yeah, that's the ticket, it's all because of the RWers...




Couldn't possibly be that we also have a part in all this,

.
.
.
.
.

could it????

Long live anal-retentive elitists!

:yourock:

[theHandpuppet]

76. Excellent point, bobbolink...

People who exhibit boorishness and a lack of empathy, respect or consideration for others share something in common with Bush. In fact, I can imagine him doing and saying some of the things I've read here and it wouldn't surprise me a bit.

Take care, friend.

:hi:

[Kajsa]

86. It's not that far from

Freeper behavior--

sad but true.

Bobbolink and Handpuppet, you guys rock!

:yourock: :hi:

[bobbolink]

90. "Let There Be Peace, And Let It Begin With ME"

What a concept.... :hippie:

Thank you so very much for your kind words!

They really stand out in contrast.

:hug:

[Kajsa]

104. You are welcome, bobbolink.

It comes from my heart.

:hug:

[bobbolink]

99. Yes, it's so easy to point "out there" and not look inward. Something about the moat in our own eye

That's why I don't see any change happening at all.

It can't change, until we see the smaller things right in front of us, and how we feed into it.

Boil, froggie, boil!

:hug:

[uppityperson]

24. Native sacred land was there first.

[Sanctified]

64. How far does sacred land extend.

The partying happens 1 mile from the sacred land, what if they said no partying within 10,000 miles of sacred land would you still hold your position.

[Solo_in_MD]

74. No fair asking for quantification...

[Solo_in_MD]

55. Its a classic private property fight and the tribes have not been able to address the issue by the

buying up the adjacent property

[KitchenWitch]

142. Yeah, like the government has given the tribes any resources to do that.

The US government picked out the worst possible tracts of land to make into Indian Reservations - most reservations are unfarmable, and not really able to sustain human life at all. How are these people supposed to come up with the money to buy property? (and land being property is a concept that is foreign to their traditions anyway)

[Solo_in_MD]

153. The original purchase price of the land was not all that high when this started

A net based fund raising could easily have covered it. There is also the funds that they have so far refused to accept that the US Gov hold in trust. It was a doable thing a few years back. IIRC last year when this came up, it looked like at least one of the property owners was tired of being targeted and would not longer consider selling.

Do you think so poorly of the Sou ix that due to their traditions that they can not deal with the concept of private property? Its clear that they are more than familiar enough with American legal systems to understand private property laws.

[Chemical Bill]

75. It would be just like that...

if the churches had their land stolen from them, and they were forced at gunpoint to keep to their buildings.

Bill

[JVS]

134. have you ever studied 16th century Europe?

[Chemical Bill]

164. I'm sorry...

what is your point?

Bill

[JVS]

167. You said it would be just like that if the churches had had large amounts of land stolen from them.

They did and it isn't. Being a bishop back in the day often ment ruling a large amount of territory as a prince would.

[Chemical Bill]

172. Do you seriously think that this is comparable?

Edit: Have you read the whole thread?

[JVS]

176. The big difference is that the Bishop of Bamberg isn't trying to lay down a 50 sq mile no party zone

[Chemical Bill]

177. No, the big difference is...

that the US government didn't promise the Black Hills forever to the Bishop of Bamberg. The Lakota, OTOH, were promised the Black Hills by treaty. Please don't ignore American history.

Bill

[JVS]

178. You're the one who said the same thing would happen if churches were robbed.

I pointed out that you were incorrect. The US government is not the issue. The issue is religious groups and how much area they want to control beyond that which they are recognized as holding.

[Chemical Bill]

180. I disagree.

I pointed out that it wasn't the same as a church controlling social behavior down the street, as the Lakota by treaty own all of the land in question. Any questions?

Bill

Edit: Please read:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1580086#1580618

[Bobbieo]

14. No, it is not!

[Bobbieo]

15. No, Sturgis is not held on reservation land!

[Bobbieo]

19. The point being missed here is Bear Butte is sacred land to 8 Western tribes

[bobbolink]

39. Sadly, I don't think the point is being missed. I think we've entered

the era of "To hell with everyone except ME!"

Courtesy? Consideration?

screw that....

Yet, there is so much consternation that this country could declare war on yet another sovereign nation..


:cry:

[bobbolink]

42. Hey! Who donated me? THANKS!

Mucho megalo mahalo!

:yourock:

[Sanctified]

62. Sturgis is not another sovereign nation.

And my neighbor thinks it would be common courtesy for me to go to church every Sunday, does that mean I have to go?

[bobbolink]

63. BWAHAHAHAHA!

:rofl:

[Sanctified]

60. And anyone can say my home is Sacred Land of the Spaghetti Monster, it does not mean it is. n/t

[Solo_in_MD]

69. How is this different from a Cathedral, Temple, or mosque trying to control businesses near it?

Its quite legal to operate a BBQ Rib restaurant next to a mosque or synagogue. Why is this really that different.

The only real answer is to gain legal control of the land, which has not been done to date.

[Chulanowa]

100. Exactly

You have this sacred site. It's singular. You can't just pack your bags and move a few miles over to replace it.

On the other hand, there are broad tracts of American land, private and public alike, that are just as impressive-looking as Bear butte, where a bunch of bikers can gather to get piss drunk, play "Freebird" over and over again, and tear holes in the landscape by spinning their wheels.

I would wager that the biker organizations are insistent on this one place just because it pisses off the tribes, and not because of any actual reason.

[Solo_in_MD]

105. Actually its the property owners near Bear Butte that are doing this

[fishnfla]

25. Your sitting on Indian land

we all are

[cgrindley]

151. Don't you mean you're?

and no, we're not. Or are you taking a zionist position on Israel?

[sofa king]

57. Sacred land, yes. Stolen land, yes. Reservation land, no.

It's known that for at least a hundred years in the 1700s and 1800s the Lakota ceremonially ran a heard of buffalo through Bear Butte as part of an enormous ritual. The land was guaranteed to the Lakota via treaty in 1851.

Then gold was rumored to be found in the Black Hills, and in 1868 a new treaty was signed in the typical way: by coercing a small and unrepresentative sample of Lakota leaders to sign it, and applying it to the greater Sioux nation. The last of the Black Hills was effectively stolen from the Lakota in 1877, the land sale being overwhelmingly approved by 10% of the adult male Lakota population.

By 1980, the Indian Claims Commission, the Court of Claims, and the Supreme Court all agreed that the Black Hills had been illegally taken from the Lakota, but rather than order it returned the ICC awarded a huge sum of money to the Oglala Lakota. They refuse to take the money and it continues to (theoretically, though it's now likely stolen by the Bush Administration) gain interest and grow beyond half a billion dollars--or about one-eighth of the land's actual value.

The Oglala Lakota are easily one of the five poorest tribes in America, which makes them pretty much the poorest Americans in America. Yet they still, as a group, refuse to take money for the Black Hills, instead insisting that the land be returned.

It won't be, as long as there is a Republican in South Dakota.

Edit: Sources: http://www.sacredland.org/historical_sites_pages/black_hills.html
www.lakotaarchives.com/lakland4txt.html
www.lakotaarchives.com/laklandtxt.html

[Solo_in_MD]

61. I am not sure Democrats will give it back either

[muntrv]

2. Those drunken bikers are great amurkin' ca'boyz!

:sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[Ian David]

6. They need to invest in an orangutan.

[Swede]

18. How can noise be a problem in a huge empty state?

Surely both sides can come to some sort of agreement.

[Critters2]

22. It's empty because you don't live there?

How many people need to be offended before you think they deserve a hearing?

[Swede]

23. You did read all my post,I hope.

About both sides coming to some sort of agreement.

[LeftHander]

89. Bear Butte State Park - Photo

http://www.sdgfp.info/Parks/Regions/NorthernHills/BearButte.htm



I am from SD....you can hear harley straight pipes for miles...

From Link above

Mato Paha or “Bear Mountain” is the Lakota name given to this site. To the Cheyenne, it is "Noahvose." This geological formation is one of several intrusions of igneous rock in the Black Hills that formed millions of years ago. The mountain is sacred to many American Indian tribes who come here to hold religious ceremonies. Please be respectful of worshippers and their religious practices. more...

[bobbolink]

111. Thanks for posting the picture. Unfortunate, the "please be respectful" part

is no longer 'Murkin.

Might makes right is the true 'Murkin spirit, and the bikers definitely have the might.

I"m sure they'll be happy to prove it with a few gun shots, even.

:(

[Bobbieo]

20. The point being missed here is that Bear Butte is a sacred mountain to

8 Western tribes.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

21. It's also cherished by thousands of bikers, apparently.

I'm not sure what your point is.

[scarletwoman]

27. The PLACE isn't "cherished", the PARTY is. They could have the same good time ANYWHERE.

They just happened to luck out with Sturgis, because no one with any power in that area saw fit to clamp down on the bikers. But they could just as well have their big yearly party in Nevada or Oklahoma or any other rural area of any other state in the Union.

There's no special reason that it had to be Sturgis, it just happened to be where they got together and then decided to keep getting together there. It wouldn't kill them to show a little respect for the actual inhabitants of the area -- all that's being asked, after all, is a 4 mile buffer from a very ancient traditionally sacred site.

But no -- it's just one more "fuck you" in over 400 years worth of "fuck yous" to the original inhabitants of this country.

sw

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

29. But they "want" to party there.

Because they like it a lot. Ergo, they cherish it.

"There's no special reason that it had to be Sturgis, it just happened to be where they got together and then decided to keep getting together there."

And now, after doing it for years and years, it's become a tradition. It's ceremonial even.

"It wouldn't kill them to show a little respect for the actual inhabitants of the area"

No, and it wouldn't kill the actual inhabitants of the area to show a little respect to their guests for a week or three.

[scarletwoman]

34. Um, I'm not quite sure why anyone needs to "show a little respect" to assholes.

And they're not "guests", they're invaders. The Indians certainly never invited them. And what "hostess gift" did the bikers ever bring the Indians?

I don't know about you, but if a bunch of drunken partiers showed univited up at the end of my driveway, I certainly wouldn't consider them "guests", I'd consider them intruders and assholes.

sw

[Solo_in_MD]

43. Considering that they are not on Indian territory...

no invitations or hostess gifts would be called for. This is about a private facility near Bear Butte, close but not in Sturgis

[scarletwoman]

46. Well, of course, technicalities MUST trump all basic human decency and understanding.

That's the wasichu capitalist American way.

[Solo_in_MD]

51. See Post #37...just trying to add some clarity and facts to the discussion

there is a lot of bad info floating around the thread, including that it a park that is under discussion

[scarletwoman]

59. I appreciate your efforts. Thanks. (nt)

[Kajsa]

84. Scarletwoman, you hit the nail on the head.

Didn't ya know that selling cockfighting magazines through the mail
is an "Murican' right? Cos those good 'ole boys likes to see those
rosters shredding the hell out of each other until one is killed!
And they need their magazines!

It's freedom of speech, damnit!

It's also in violation of Federal law.

Screw that! And screw those animals!!

:sarcasm:

( I'm referring to an actual thread in GD)

[bobbolink]

91. Unfortunately, you have well captured the "American Spirit"

:cry:

"human decency and understanding."

Went the way of the dinosaur.

Somehow, we need to stand up to the current climate of ugliness.

Together.

:hug:

[Donald Ian Rankin]

108. That's what "the rule of law" means, I think.

If the law says that techincally you are allowed do something, you can, no matter how insensitive it is; if not you can't.

Trying to run a legal system where what was and was not permitted was based on "common sense", rather than a set of rigorously-applied technicalities, wouldn't work, I think - it would give the people making the decisions far to much power to enforce their values onto everyone else.

I *like* the fact that, provided I don't cross certain clearly-set out boundaries, no-one can arrest me. The fact that other people can get away with acting like assholes towards me, provided they don't cross those boundaries, is a price well worth paying.

[scarletwoman]

112. *sigh* It's not a matter of LAW to show common courtesy and human decency.

And just because it's LEGAL to act like an asshole, doesn't mean you HAVE to.

[bobbolink]

116. Oh, hell.... we can just go blow up any damn place we feel like it, as long as it's "legal"

"Shock and Awe! It's not just for Marines, anymore!"

:evilfrown:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

47. It's a state park, scarlet woman.

:shrug:

[scarletwoman]

49. No, it's private land. If it were a state park, no alcohol would be allowed in the first place. nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

50. Is it a different Bear Butte then?

http://www.blackhillsbadlands.com/go.asp?ID=319

[Solo_in_MD]

52. Yes it is...See Post #37

[qdemn7]

145. Yep what this really amounts to

Is just another bunch of people offended for one reason or another, and thinking that because THEY are offended that the rest of society must bow to their wishes. And since they cloak it in the veil of "faith" that give them extra-special privileges.

[fishwax]

160. yeah, NA faith has long been known to garner "extra-special privileges" here in America

:sarcasm:

[qdemn7]

161. Sure has...

Like legalized gambling on reservations.

[fishwax]

162. native american religion involves legalized gambling?

who knew :shrug:

[Chemical Bill]

181. I understand the other poster was being sarcastic...

but gambling is a sacred NA tradition, meant to point out the temporal nature of our existence. I always chuckle about that when I pass a bus load of old folks on their way to lose at Foxwoods.

Bill

[Kajsa]

165. If the guests show consideration- no problem.

Obviously, these guests don't.- problem.

[bobbolink]

66. May I pleeeez refer you to post #45?

It's time to enter the 21st century, and get with the program.

We grouchy old farts are just holding up progress.

Yet again.

[Xithras]

38. And?

They aren't talking about the mountain, but about the surrounding land. A biker camping on their holy mountain is the equivalent of an unwashed atheist claiming a right to sleep in the foyer of a church. I wholly support the churches right to kick the atheist out of their holy place, and the Indians right to kick the bikers off the mountain.

But that's not what they want.

They want to ban the bikers from a state park surrounding a lake a mile away from the peak. They want to ban the bikers from a state highway that runs near the foot of the mountain. They want to ban alcohol sales within four miles of the mountain.

If the Catholic church in your town petitioned the city council to prohibit alcohol sales within four miles of their church, to prevent "undesireable activities" within that circle (can't have any of those abortion clinics near churches, understood), to close any quickiemart selling beer within four miles, to ban anyone in a car they don't like from driving PAST their church, or to prevent that loud congregation of black singing Baptists from setting up their own church across the street, would you agree with them? Even if the church was there first? I doubt it.

I respect the rights of the natives to believe whatever they want, and I believe we should appropriately respect their holy places and leave them alone. That respect, however, should not give them veto power over the basic rights of everyone else on land surrounding that site. The mountain is a holy place, the highway and park aren't. They get no say as to what happens in those areas.

[JVS]

124. look at the map. 4 miles from the mountain encompasses the whole town of Sturgis to the West

[DS1]

26. Making senseless noise is part of being a biker

It's why they start up their choppers outside a bar at night, then stand around yapping for half an hour before leaving. There must be noise pollution at all opportunity.

[Solo_in_MD]

53. As a lifelong motorcyclist, I think the loud pipes fetish is crap......

And risks motorcycle rights. My current bike was recently praised for its lack of decibels...it has a stock exhaust system.

[brentspeak]

58. What are the quieter bikes?

Harleys, I know, could raise the dead. But what about Indians, Triumphs, and Beemers?

I haven't ridden a motorcycle yet -- people keep telling me I'll just become 'road pizza' -- but am considering taking a riding class.

[Solo_in_MD]

65. All MCs sold are requried to meet noise standards

That said, the first thing most cruiser owners seem to do is to take off those pipes and put on louder/noisier ones, though other styles of bikes (sport) also do this.

Check around in your state for Basic Riders Course, often taught by the Motorcycle Safety Foundation. Take it before you decide to buy a bike or serious scooter. I get close to 50 mpg on a bike that doesn't cost $10K new (not that I ever by new)

[CRF450]

101. What solo said...

All motorcycles (even the Harleys) are required to meet db limits to be street legal. The ones that are exept from this are off road dirtbikes and ATV's made for racing on MX tracks and such. Then their are some made for kids or offroad trail riding that have quieter mufflers with spark arresters. I am a dirtbike owner, its a Honda CRF450 dirtbike. I bought an aftermarket FMF muffler thats quieter than the factory one.

For street bikes, I actually find that the high performance sport bikes are less noisy than the V-twin cruisers, both with stock exhausts. Half of what you hear from them is the chain drive, while rubber belts on the cruisers are real quiet.

[arikara]

141. Harleys are the only vehicle

that we can ever hear going down the main road behind our place. And we can hear them running for about 5 minutes. Nothing else other than sirens from emergency vehicles makes more noise. I truly sympathize with the people who live there when all those stupid beer swilling potbellied clowns show up in Sturgis. And I know how pathetically ignorant they can be because my ex turned into one and I had the displeasure of going out with him and his fool cronies... once only. Watching them leer and paw at the waitresses was disgusting.

[DS1]

67. It's certainly not earning 'bikers' any friends

Which is a shame for a lot of riders.

[Solo_in_MD]

71. Bikers don't need no damn friends, they got other bikers...

Sarcasm aside (I just learned you can not put a sarcasm tag in a title), this is not an issue that resonates. The vast majority of people I have found that even know about this fall into two groups:
- Deal with it for the two weeks a years
- Buy the land if you don't want it used for XYZ.

Its got neglible traction

[bobbolink]

92. Doesn't matter.

They're cool.

They're tough.

They're not looking for "friends".

Those who aren't with 'em.... just blow 'em away.

It's the 'Murkin Way.

[dmallind]

88. Nah

That's because you have to run a Harley that long before you ride it so you can identify which bits are going to fall off. Besides - give them a break - it's the only time they get to hear the engine run since most of their miles are done in the back of pickups and you can;t run the engine then - it would shake the truck too much. ;)

[-..__...]

30. When did they first start griping about this?

The rally has been held every year since 1938.

The current crowd isn't the same beer drinkers and hell raisers that attended the rallies in the 60's-70's

If I had to guess... it probably didn't became the huge "must attend" rally that it now is until about 20 years ago when bikers became more mainstream and diluted by the over 40 crowd of well-off business types
in their designer leathers and jeans.

Nowadays, there's probably just as many souped-up Jap crotch rockets as there are $25k + Harleys and Orange County Chopper crap (towed in on a trailer for most of the trek).

[fishnfla]

33. I believe it stared sometime in the 1830's, this "griping"

When the whites violated the treaties and came into the Black Hills, which had been sacred for generations before, to steal the gold.

"Thieves road" they called it. Now they cant even have 4 miles

[Solo_in_MD]

37. This is in essence a private property rights fight that has been going on for years

There is a multi phase project that includes a campground, bar, liquour store, and music stage on privately owned land near near/adjacent to Bear Butte. AI tribes have been unable to purchase the land. It is in the county, not within the city limits of Sturgis. Private property rights are a bigger thing in some parts of the US than others. The county is placing those rights above being respectful of AI spiritual traditions. This has been going on for some time with no real end in sight. Based on the information at the end of the article, the price might be lower now if the tribes want to buy it. I see no viable solution to this until $$$ changes hands.

[ismnotwasm]

68. The usual suspects are out

I see. Whether the topic is racism, sexism or equating common courtesy with political correctedness or putting personal "rights" over common good. How tiresome,

The Sturgis extravaganza sold out years ago to corporate interests. Corporate interests couldn't give a shit less what people consider sacred. Especially impoverished people who've had their culture ripped up and ripped off. What is ironic is several motorcycle enthusiasts I know like to to wear Native American fashion accessories.

And then there's always the "Indian" motorcycle. Great old bike, I hear they came out with a new one.

Never let hypocrisy get in the way of a great party I guess.

[scarletwoman]

70. Thank you. (nt)

[Solo_in_MD]

73. The new Indian motorcycle has come and gone already. It was a tolerable, but not a particularly good

motorcycle. It lasted for a few years and then died. Someone will buy the name and try again soon enough.

As for collective vs private, its a classic American social issue

[bobbolink]

93. Hypocrisy is the new "peace" movement, dincha know?

At least, when the "usual suspects" spew their ugliness, we can see it for what it is, and use that handy red "X"!

:hi:

Too bad it's allowed on a so-called "liberal" site. :shrug:

I don't see how it's different from freepers....

[glitch]

96. Plenty of places to party, irritating the locals is probably the added attraction here.

Assholes exist, everywhere it seems.

[Chovexani]

179. Ain't never lied

Threads like these simultaneously piss me the fuck off and give me hope at the same time. While the usual boorish, borderline sociopathic assholes blind to their own privilege come out of the woodwork to bang their chests and bleat about their right to be miserable bastards to the rest of the species, there are people like you who come out and slap them upside the head with reality.

Thank you. You make my head hurt a little less. :hug:

(Full disclosure: I'm part Muskogee Creek and would be out there protesting with them if I could.)

[symbolman]

77. HERE

is a MOTORCYCLE.

http://www.nortonmotorcycles.com/default.asp

I owned a NORTON Commando when stationed in California, and used to EAT Harleys for LUNCH with it. THe new 960 needs to be MINE :)

I also lived in Sturgis for about three years, and attended the Rally each year.. remember it only happens ONCE a year, when 300,000 motorcycles descend on a town of about 7,000 people. THEY WILL DO ANYTHING for the Bikers, and it HAS sold out to corporate interests. Most of the time it's filled with Posers, called "Rolex Rangers" - brutally CLEAN Leathers, not a BUG to be seen on these people.

BUT, the Hells Angels also own land in the area, so you can see REAL Bikers - the ones that walk down the street twirling little ball peen hammers in their fingers. You give them any shit, they hold you down and knock out all your visible teeth. For real.

The Natives have a point. They were there FIRST, and that Butte is spectacular. I gazed at it each and every day, you can FEEL the power there. Unfortunately the Bikers, and posers, don't feel that power, and don't care to respect it. As far as respect goes, if you camp at the local campground there, you can wake up in the morning and see all the japanese bikes HANGING from the Trees Like Xmas Ornaments. Which is pretty funny when you see it.

The Natives, unfortunately don't have a leg to stand on, all Republican, ALL the TIME, or else, like it has been said before, Corporate Interests trump EVERYTHING.

It's a damn shame. THose punks on loud farting machines have no reason to climb that Butte, other than to take a shit all over it, throw trash everywhere.

They simply have NO CLASS, and CLASS has been missing from this country for a LONG TIME.

When I get 20 grand the NEW Norton is MINE, but I won't go anywhere near Stugis. Been there, done that. Unless I want to starve on the top of Bear Butte, and face the four corners, with total respect.

[Solo_in_MD]

80. Interesting fairy tale...

[symbolman]

103. I'm assuming that you personally

lived in Sturgis for at least three years or so.. Or are you just exhausting through some anal cavity?
Exactly what part of my posting is considered a fairy tale by someone such as yourself?

You sound like someone who feels more like they do Now, than when they first came in Here...

Such a caution.. From the looks of it you'd last about five minutes at Buffalo Chip..

[Solo_in_MD]

110. In pieces, more than that. We have extensive extended family in Sturgis and the surrounding area.

I'm allergic to snow, so I avoid it winter, but have spent many summers there. Last time I was at the rally was 2-3 years ago.

Exactly what part of my posting is considered a fairy tale by someone such as yourself?
Jap bikes in trees, the intimidation of imminent violence by patch holders for starters. No one messes with another man's bike, espcially at Sturgis. The various gangs do not attack ordinary citizens without extreme provocation. Even then it would be considered personal business and would not have club support. The truce at Sturgis is absolute.

a caution.. From the looks of it you'd last about five minutes at Buffalo Chip..
I've spent many hours there and at the original Broken Spoke. Never had a problem, even when I was young and stupid. I also ride rice with well worn ballistic nylon. Never been hassled by anyone, nor my wife or daughters. Its a respectful place for riders, posers are another matter.

[symbolman]

146. I've seen the jap bikes in trees

and as for messing with another man's bike, those aren't considered bikes.

No mention of the ball peen hammers, and despite your well worn clothing, as you claim, the majority of those there are posers.

Pure and simple, so I'm calling Fairy Tales on you, sorry, but you must have spent more time in Deadwood.

[Solo_in_MD]

148. Clearly you do not ride or know any patch holders

So what about the hammers? They are carried by patch holders since they are considered tools, not weapons. You do understand the term "patch holder"?

I've seen bikes in trees, including Harleys. Its not done in mass, not common, nor done by patch holders. Its more of a prank if you have that kind of friends.

I have never ridden to the rally on a HD but no one has ever commented about me being on rice. In all fairness, I have always been on non cruisers with a fair amount of miles on them. Last time was on a V-Strom with hard cases wearing my old 'stitch and a full full face helmet. Got a few compliments on the bike and was asked in the Broken Spoke if it was hot to wear the 'stitch(not really) Riders are treated well there and at other "biker" events, regardless of their ride. Even trailering posers are not attacked, ridiculed maybe, but not attacked.

Victory and the rice brands well represented this year per family members who is there...no issues, which is to be expected. There haven't been any in many years.

[CRF450]

98. Most any kind of sport bike will shit on a Harley

Harley's arent made for racing, there cruisers made for long trips and comfort. A modern 600cc sport bike will slauter almost any Harley. I'm thinking about getting a new Yamaha R6 myself:bounce:

[Solo_in_MD]

114. I would not go along with crusers being all that comfortable

Baggers maybe, but not softails and most of the customs are not really all that comfortable. I am not a fan of an aircooled motor either.

[CRF450]

156. Your right. some cruisers arent really comfortable...

but they still beat a crotch rocket on long rides. One major problem I have with them is their weight, I just cant seem to fully handle a 500+ pound cruiser when putting around in 1st gear while turning sharp. Its my small stature at just over 5'4".

[The Vinyl Ripper]

127. Honda ST1100 ABS

If it's a choice of a bike with or without ABS..

ABS wins..

It's way more important on a bike than a car.

And the Beemer ABS bites.

[Solo_in_MD]

152. The new Concours 1400 also has ABS and looks to be the hot ST bike this year

avaialbe with or wqithout ABS

Not sure I agree with you about BMW ABS, there are those who love it, and I have not had a problem with it when I rode a bike with it. Then again, I have never owned a BMW so my experinece with it is limited to loaned bikes

[The Vinyl Ripper]

175. The fjr1300 has abs also..

The Beemer rear abs isn't very effective, you can't get as much stopping power out of the brake as is actually there.

And of course the ST is now a 1300..

The new Councours does sound nice..

[ThomWV]

78. FXSTDI - You either get it, or you don't

And I do not drink alcohol, not at all, not a drop, never.

[Solo_in_MD]

79. But did you remove the factory pipes and put on non-approved aftermarket ones?

[TX-RAT]

81. approved aftermarket ones?

Don't stop there. I think they should have to abide by the same emission standards as cars.

[ThomWV]

82. V&H Pro-Pipe, 2->1

[Solo_in_MD]

106. Prolly not all that noisy, but not legal either (not tested)

I rode the Dragon last weekend. THP was ticketing for anything they could find, including vertically mounted license plates. Word is they gave out lots of tickets for pipes too. If they were not stamped as tested etc (check your OEM pipes) you got ticketed.

Tenn has just started an ultimate crack down on the Dragon, checkout tailofthedragon.com for details.

[Mythsaje]

85. Well, at least playing Bikers and Indians

seems to result in less bloodshed than Cowboys and Indians.

All kidding aside, this is so sad. Many bikers of my acquaintance--admittedly old men and women by now--held a lot of respect for the Native Americans. Bikers themselves have traditionally considered themselves the last truly free Americans, and had a tendency to root for the underdog.

These are two groups who shouldn't really be at odds.

Like I said. Sad.

[bobbolink]

95. "held a lot of respect "

As was pointed out to me, that is soooo last century.

It's all about our own narrow interests now, and screw everyone else.

It's truly the 'Murkin Way.

[Mythsaje]

97. Well, it WAS last century...n/t

[WI_DEM]

94. Good for the Indians

[Madspirit]

102. Normally

Normally I wouldn't side with religion. You guys know that. ...BUT considering that we stole this entire country from them and the bikers are just being obnoxious TO offend them being as there is plenty of other room and many other places for their hijinks, fuck the bikers.
Lee

[Donald Ian Rankin]

109. Are the bikers doing anything illegal?

I think that's the central point of the whole thing. Whether or not what they're doing is immoral is, ultimately, not going to decide anything, and nor should it - that's what the rule of law means.

Whether or not the bikers *should* hold the rally is, I think, beside the point, because ultimately the only answer to that question that will change anything is the bikers', and that's easy to guess. The important question is whether they should be *allowed* to hold the rally.


If they are not breaking laws, they should be allowed to hold their rally, whether or not the locals dislike it.

If they are breaking laws, they should not be allowed to.


I don't know whether or not they are, but given that most of the posts on this thread a) don't mention any laws being broken, and b) appear to be hostile to the rally, and hence probably would make a big thing of it if they were, my suspicion is that they are not.

[bobbolink]

113. Absolutely! Fuck "morality". Fuck courtesy. Fuck peace.

Next stop, Iran.

We KNOW there's no laws against fucking with them!

[Solo_in_MD]

117. Its really a private property thing, it is not about the rally and bikers

The controversy is not about the rally itself but some outlying facilites near Bear Butte. The property owners are the ones to have the issue with and work it with.

[Solo_in_MD]

115. This is not about the rally itself but a compound nearby

I posted some of the detail in post 35. Your basic private property rights thing. There is also a request to reduce the loud pipes going down a nearby road as well.

[scarletwoman]

120. No, they are doing you proud by excercising their "legal" right to be assholes.

As I posted above, just because something's "legal" doesn't mean you HAVE to do it. Just because they CAN act like assholes, doesn't mean they HAVE to.

They could simply decide -- out of courtesy; out of respect for the survivors of a continent-wide genocide who asking for very little, actually, just a small space of peace that represents the barest fraction of what was taken from them by force and deception; out of simple human decency and neighborliness -- the bikers could decide that this is not too much ask and set the requested boundary for their party.

They could even "legally" reach a deal with the tribes, file proper papers with a court and all, if only some sense of brotherhood and compassion would arise in their beery hearts.

Or, perhaps some rich "liberal" biker or celebrity will step up and give the landowners their asking price and then sign the deed over to the tribes. Yay, property rights! Party over, assholes.

It's not a legal question, it's a human question of why can't some people stop being assholes?

sw

[B Calm]

118. Are the Indians getting drunk and having fun with the bikers?

[JVS]

119. The bikers should invite them and maybe everyone can get along

[lonestarnot]

121. Many bikers are on my nerves lately.

Many have no respect for anything. Many voted for the bushitler as they were too stupid to evaluate candidates or issues. Sturgis should be banning the run.

[scarletwoman]

122. Thought exercise: imagine the exact same biker rally being held near Crawford, TX.

I imagine that no time would wasted in passing ordinances and enforcing nuisance laws. 4 mile buffer? No problem!

sw

[JVS]

123. 4 miles away from Bear Butte essentially means no event in Sturgis

The whole town is within 4 miles of the Butte. Cut it down to 2 miles and it might work, but this group basically wants to tell the whole town that the event is forbidden. Good luck running that by the chamber of commerce, or even getting it to win in a local election.

[Solo_in_MD]

125. Would you please post an image...I don't see that on my mapping S/W

What is not clear is if the Bear Butte in question is the park or another location designated as Bear Butte

[JVS]

126. Oh, I see what you mean, I think this one is the mountain itself...

which looks to be a bit farther out, but then again the article said that they met at the bottom of the mountain towards town and want a 4 mile buffer from there, so it might cut through the center of town. I was looking at Google map earlier and might have been reckoning from the state park, which is closer.

[Solo_in_MD]

128. Since this has been prosposed as legislation at the state and county level

I would assume that maps have been done, been in the local paper, etc. There haven't been any in any of the recent material I have seen. There has been no mention in the past of the no alcohol zone impacting the Sturgis proper, just one and now maybe two new campgrounds.

[Blue-Jay]

129. How far away from a "sacred" site would be OK?

5 miles? 10? 50?

[Solo_in_MD]

130. That was asked earlier...no one has deigned to answer

[Blue-Jay]

143. It's easier to complain without thinking I guess.

[Solo_in_MD]

149. Another unaddressed issue is how far do you let a religion control things

comparisons to xtian, muslim or jewish religious places, though apt, are also ignored.

[sleipnir]

182. Then there's the misguided thinking that native american religions are somehow better or more holy

from the mainstream collection.

[Solo_in_MD]

183. Considering how the xtian faith is treated here, the accomodation

urged here and for other religions is amazing

[cgrindley]

131. Nothing is sacred

why do people insist on believing that certain things or concepts are "sacred"? It just doesn't make any rational sense.

[Matariki]

133. that's what *you* think

[cgrindley]

135. No, it's reality

there's nothing special or sacred about anything. The world is just made of stuff. There's no inherent meaning in any of it. People can choose to believe in things, or have the beliefs of others foisted on them, but the history of such beliefs is only one of relentless misery and intolerance. Everyone would be much better off without it.

[Matariki]

139. your world is narrow. that's not my problem.

[Solo_in_MD]

150. Your position is identical to muslims insisting that

the women have their heads covered and dress modestly near the mosque and that resturants not serve pork or alcohol within a certain radius.

Do you really want to go that way?

[guitar man]

154. I find it ironic

That a lot of the "drunken bikers" I know from here in Oklahoma that ride up to Sturgis every year are Native Americans themselves.

Maybe they can get together with the local Natives and come to an agreement, maybe a compromise of some sort. It might be more effective if Native American bikers are brought into the process of solving the problem :shrug:

[qdemn7]

163. Baaah! Hypocrisy in action!!

Aww, the poor N.A. are being oppressed because of THEIR FAITH. Boo-fucking-hoo. You can bet your ass the same people crying tears over this would have the EXACT opposite opinion if it was Christians complaining about boozing and partying next to a site THEY deemed sacred. And let's not get started about Muslims (pork, alcohol), or Hindus (beef). As for me, some quotes by Heinlein express my views pretty well:

It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.

Of all the strange "crimes" that human beings have legislated of nothing, "blasphemy" is the most amazing - with "obscenity" and "indecent exposure" fighting it out for the second and third place.

Theology is never any help; it is searching in a dark cellar at midnight for a black cat that isn't there. Theologians can persuade themselves of anything.

Men rarely (if ever) manage to dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child.

I’ve never understood how God could expect His creatures to pick the one true religion by faith—it strikes me as a sloppy way to run a universe.

History does not record anywhere a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unknown without help.

The most preposterous notion that H. sapiens has ever dreamed up is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of all the Universes, wants the saccharine adoration of His creatures, can be swayed by their prayers, and becomes petulant if He does not receive this flattery. Yet this absurd fantasy, without a shred of evidence to bolster it, pays all the expenses of the oldest, largest, and least productive industry in all history.

God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent — it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks, please. Cash and in small bills.

The profession of shaman has many advantages. It offers high status with a safe livelihood free of work in the dreary, sweaty sense. In most societies it offers legal privileges and immunities not granted to other men. But it is hard to see how a man who has been given a mandate from on High to spread tidings of joy to all mankind can be seriously interested in taking up a collection to pay his salary; it causes on to suspect that the shaman is on the moral level of any other con man. But it's lovely work if you can stomach it.

And my favorite: One man's theology is another man's belly laugh.


Robert Anson Heinlein

[porphyrian]

166. I like bikers and Indians, though.

Instead of trying to penalize people off of the land, why not create something more attractive to lure the bikers away from it? And, if the land is really sacred to the Indians, why not give it back to what remains of the tribe? Head on, this fight will only get uglier and uglier.

[cgrindley]

173. What about construction workers, cowboys, cops and soldiers?

I like all of the Village People.

[porphyrian]

174. I didn't mean to be exclusive, I was just naming the parties in the conflict.

I like all of the Village People, too.