Very Bad Idea: Methodist church offers counseling to public: Fees to be based on clients' incomes

[Ian David]

First, here is an example of Black Collar Douchebaggery that illustrates WHY it is a very bad idea:

Court says separation of church and state bars suing faith-based marriage counselors
Topic started by IanDB1 on Jun-30-07 02:05 PM (2 replies)
Last modified by msongs on Jun-30-07 02:25 PM
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1219000


Anyway, on to what may be well-intentioned, but which has become a very bad idea:


Methodist church offers counseling to public: Fees to be based on clients' incomes

By DEBBIE GILBERT
The Times
GAINESVILLE

First United Methodist Church in Gainesville is extending its ministry beyond its own congregation, opening up a counseling center to serve the general public.

The new facility, to be called the Care and Counseling Center of Gainesville, is located at 425 Bradford Street in a building formerly occupied by Hall-Dawson Court Appointed Special Advocates.

<snip>

The Rev. Steve Winter, executive pastor at First United, said church officials decided to lease the Bradford site because they felt Gainesville needed more options for faith-based counseling.

"As ministers, we are general counselors. We're able to help people on a short-term basis," he said. "But when someone has a bigger problem than we have the expertise to handle, we have to refer them."

Though Gainesville has a number of competent therapists, Winter said First United has been sending people to centers in metro Atlanta, run by the nonprofit, Decatur-based Care and Counseling Center of Georgia.

"We prefer them because their staff are both ordained ministers and certified psychological counselors," he said. "We like the spiritual component."

More:
http://www.gainesvilletimes.com/news/stories/20070810/localnews/189752.shtml

The last thing we need are professional counselors beyond the reach of the law or accountability.

[spoony]

1. Did you even bother reading this?

"As ministers, we are general counselors. We're able to help people on a short-term basis," he said. "But when someone has a bigger problem than we have the expertise to handle, we have to refer them."

...

"We prefer them because their staff are both ordained ministers and certified psychological counselors," he said.

...

"Anybody can hang out their shingle as a Christian counselor," said Marshall. "But if they are not credentialed, clients can't be sure that the person has any training in psychology."

...

"We practice much as any therapist does, but we work from the triad of mind-body-spirit," she said. "We do not tell clients they should pray, but we join them in prayer if they ask."

Graves said it's not even necessary for the person to be a Christian, and it's up to the client to decide how much they want spirituality integrated into their therapy.

"It's not our job to evangelize or to convert people," he said.

And, lastly:

"The counselors are trained to recognize when a client has a biologically based mental illness, such as schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. In those cases, they will refer the person to a psychiatrist who can prescribe medication."


_______________________________________________________________________

Peddle your spam bullshit back where it belongs.

[Richard Steele]

3. Did you?

:eyes:

[spoony]

11. What a blistering argument

But might you dig up some smilies that can back up what you say? Me, I prefer quotes.

[Ian David]

5. The Texas Court has ruled that church counselors cannot be sued for malpractice.

I am not saying that these people at this church are not qualified.

I'm just saying that it is a bad idea for people to depend on a practitioner who has zero accountability.

Why don't YOU read?

[Ian David]

7. I've decided that since you're only going to react, and not actually read anything I have to say...

That I'm not going to read anything YOU have to say, either.

So, I am placing you on ignore, since nothing productive can come of a conversation with you, when you're just talking ACROSS me and not WITH me anyway.

I've humored you long enough.

[spoony]

10. The last refuge

of a coward: ignore.

[Dogmudgeon]

2. If it isn't pastoral, it isn't protected

If the ministers are doing general counseling, they are bound to their states' rules and regs. The abuse clergy get away with is usually related to enforcement, so when a clergyperson gets away with abuse, it's an actual crime. Counselors offering psychological and social-work services are subject to the same rules.

If a minister-counselor is a psychologist, psychiatrist, or psychiatric social worker, the secular rules come first.

The only counseling that is "protected" is strictly pastoral counseling. That's how Scientology has skirted a lot of responsibility.

There has been a lot of case law about counseling. Yes, there has been abuse, too. Most ministers do a good job of counseling, and there are now a lot of watchdog groups, too. But simply putting on a collar does not buy a counselor a pass to abuse clients.

Of course, if you're trying to make the point that religion is bad per se, it's a valid argument, but it's a separate one.

--p!

[MichiganVote]

4. I don't get it. This is nothing new,many agencies, religious or otherwise function in this manner.

For those who are licensed practitioners, state and feral laws apply whether they are affiliated with a church or not.

[Ian David]

6. Not anymore, at least not in Texas.

Read the thread referenced in the O.P.

[MichiganVote]

8. I read the accompanying article, however, I also reviewed the Texas

websites that pertain to professional licensing for social workers, psychologists and marriage and family practitioners. Altho' the court found in favor of the pastor in Texas, a ruling I disagree with btw, licensing laws still apply. I do note in the article about the pastoral counseling that they talk about their "counselors" being trained. They do not assure participants that they are fully licensed therapists. I would avoid anything and anyone that did not have a license nowadays. You get what you pay for, we hope.

Take heart, in my experience most of these 'Christian' counseling centers barely keep the doors open, the "counselors" are always turning over and referrals to psychiatrists are a rarity.

[Ian David]

9. Yes, you get what you pay for. But poor people can only afford to pay so much.

No wonder they're going to offer a "sliding scale" fee so poor people can afford them! Rich people can afford better quality care, with better accountability.

[MichiganVote]

14. Depends on what level your income is in terms of Medicaid. There are some

advantages for people who use services such as this and that is that churches are often better connected w/regard to helping with basic needs/food, shelter, transportation. Sometimes these basic needs must be met b/f any substantial counseling is done. Truth to be told, these services tend to work well for the single female head of household who can and will accept help.

As for what rich people can afford, again, I think that may depend on your idea of who is rich. I've had clients who were very wealthy who had poor health insurance coverage and still didn't want to pay a co-pay or otherwise wrangled about a fee. Somebody has to pay for the high life and often pricey clients lead pricey lives (to their disadvantage). As far as better quality care, most therapy, with the exception of certain abusive situations, mental illness, or marriage and family are roughly half a year deals.

So I guess I really can't see what upsets you so much.

[Ian David]

18. The fact that the Texas court decision places them beyond the reach of the law...

at least in Texas (for now) anyway.

Like I have said about three times already, I had no objection to this until the Texas decision.

[undeterred]

12. I think anyone who offers professional counseling should be licensed

and accountable to the law. But having said that, I don't think there is anything wrong with a church offering counseling. I'm not sure why someone who didn't belong to that church, i.e., the 'public' would choose to go there, but if their beliefs are compatible, why not? Most people want a counselor or therapist who shares some of their basic values.

I don't understand the need to insult ("Black Collar Douchebaggery").

[Ian David]

13. Prior to the recent Texas court finding, I would have agreed with you.

But now, what used to be Black Collar DoGoodery has become Black Collar Douchebaggery.

[napi21]

15. I don't know about Texas, but I can assure you they ARE

able to be sued for malpractice in other States. My cousin is a faith based councelor, and also an ordained minister in Pa. and must maintain his mal-practice insurance in order to retain his license.

[Nikia]

16. I understand your problem with their inability to be sued

I don't understand your problem with them offering couseling on a sliding scale. Some clients who would want their services might not be able to afford the standard cost of counseling which here (where I live in Wisconsin) is approximately $120 for a 45-60 minute session without insurance. If the faith based couseling session wants to offer lower fees to poor and middle class people, without insurance, they should feel free to do so. It is possible that there are other centers who do the same thing.
It the state ruled that faith based couselors cannot be sued, the new client of the faith based counselors should be required to sign something acknowledging this. I agree though that they should not be treated any different than other counselors as far being able to be sued for malpractice.

[Ian David]

19. I have no problem with them offering services on a sliding scale...

except that it has the potential to be abused, thanks to the Texas decision.

That, and it's just one more way for the government to use the faith-based initiative to force poor, desperate people into situations where they have to be proselytized to in order to receive essential services.

Before the faith-based initiative, I wouldn't have objected to THAT, either.

[JitterbugPerfume]

17. Faith Based counseling

deserves a huge dose of skepticism.

[bobbolink]

20. Churches should NOT be in the counseling business.

Churches are charged with demonstrating the love of God.

Nothing more.

Nothing LESS.