To burn or not to burn (visiting the flag-burning issue)

[Mythsaje]

I'm on an e-mail list for local pagans, part of a community in my region that I've been associated with for some time, though I consider myself only "pagan by default." I'm a Pantheist/Taoist, which means I'm a believer in something that isn't Christianity, so I fall into a gray area with regards to the whole thing. My wife is a witch and is currently serving as the moderator of the list AND the Chair of the Board for the organization.

Anyhoo, we recently got into a discussion on-list about the war, the state of the nation, and, of all things, flag-burning. I don't personally give a rat's ass if someone burns the flag. It's not as though it happens even on a regular basis and I hold the flag, itself, in no particular regard. I'm not prone to idolatry in any form, so while I do love my country, and consider the Constitution worthy of the strongest protection, the flag itself bears no special place in my heart.

One of the other members, a particularly arrogant fellow of about my age, is a veteran, and he stated unequivocally that if anyone burned the flag in front of him, he'd kick their ass. Me being the contrary person I am, I was almost tempted to do it just so I could put him in his place. Of course, being the tactful person I am, and knowing full well my wife would skin me alive if I started something with him, I will restrain myself from any such activity.

He also stated that he believed that flying the flag upside down wasn't a form of protest, and that it meant "distress" (well, no shit, Sherlock) and that the only people who'd do such a thing were "shallow and self-absorbed" attention whores, basically.

My response was that he didn't get to declare himself the final arbiter of what was and what was not a valid form of protest.

I have to walk softly here because my wife already chided him for his aggressiveness on the subject, and said that while she usually doesn't allow political discussion on the list, as long as we remained civil and debated the subject rather than attacking one another, she'd allow it to continue. (I'm not a big fan of her attitude about this and I've been tempted more than once to delete myself from the list because of it, but, frankly, she needs me to stay involved and it would touch off a big domestic squabble if I were to resign in protest).

He goes on to say that it's illegal everywhere else in the world and should be illegal here. I responded by saying that we take freedom of expression far more seriously here than just about anywhere else in the world. We must tolerate the stupidity of Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Coulter, and Malkin, as well as the neo-Nazis and the KKK, and ignore those who fly the confederate flag as well. As much as I loathe some of these people, I would NEVER insist that their right to free expression be curtailed. Besides, I prefer idiots to feel safe enough to stand up and proclaim their idiocy. They're easier to avoid that way.

If only ALL idiots were so helpful in this regard.

Why does flag-burning push some peoples' buttons? I just don't get it.

[Poll_Blind]

1. I think I know why. Some of us draw strength from within, some from without.

For those who draw strength from within (and I'm sure I could spend more time and phrase this better but I'm too lazy too) a flag doesn't mean shit: It's what it stands for, of course. I think you are probably the same way.

For those who draw strength from external sources or symbols the destruction of those symbols, physically, could cause great anxiety and mental disturbance.

PB

[Kiouni]

2. Nationalism is so well ingrained

that seeing a flag burn chokes me up. But that is the point behind burning a flag if it didn't stir up these emotions we would have a national burn-a-flag day. I hope that burning a flag never becomes common place because of its importance as a symbol of this country. But right now, in the situation we're in, I might just light one up myself.

[murielm99]

3. I don't like flag-burning either.

I still love and respect my country, despite what has been done to it. That flag represents my country.

For some, flying the flag upside down is a valid way to protest. I accept that form of protest, but not flag-burning or destruction.

I would not desecrate a cross, a Star of David, a Koran, or anyone's religious symbol. Symbols are important to many people. Destruction or disrespect toward those symbols is not a form of protest I can accept.

My father belongs to the VFW, or the American Legion, I can't remember which. They get all upset about flag-burning, and encourage their members to write to their senators and congressmen about flag-burning. They are trying to get them to support laws against flag-burning. I think that is going too far. Flag-burning is not that common. And while it is not something I accept, it is still a protected form of free speech. Kicking the butts of those who burn flags calls too much attention to the act.

Groups like the VFW and Legion need to find ways to make everyone respect what the flag stands for so much that no one would ever consider burning a flag. That would mean getting rid of a lot of republicans and changing the direction of our country. I guess that is asking too much.

[Mythsaje]

10. That's pretty much how I feel about it too...

I don't like the idea of restraining freedom of expression, even if it's an expression I don't particularly care for.

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. It's not illegal everywhere else in the world

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_desecration

[Hekate]

5. I marched with a lot of vets prior to the invasion of Iraq...

I marched with a lot of vets (local chapter of VFP) in the run-up to the invasion of Iraq, and one of the reasons I did so was the proud way they carried the flag. Their attitude was that they had fought for it, that it was not the property of Bush-Cheney Inc. but of the people of the USA, and that they needed to take it back from the warmongers.

I agreed with them on all counts. It's the symbol of the country I have always loved, and I despise the jingoistic way it has been used by our homegrown fascists. If WE don't take it back, it will be ruined beyond repair.

While I support the average person's Constitutional right to do foolish things to make a statement, I disagree with this action. I think flag-burning is inflammatory in more ways than one, that's all. It shouldn't be illegal.

I'd rather wash it, myself, to represent how soiled it's become.

For my VFP friends flag-burning was a real hot-button issue. A lot of them were combat vets, and the symbol was invested with heavy emotions. None of them, btw, were out pagans -- it's very likely none in my local chapter were pagan at all.

It's interesting you are having this discussion on a pagan list. I'm also in a local pagan listserve, and a lot of its members are veterans or active-duty service members. I participated in some very lively discussions during the run-up to the Iraq invasion, and by and large the warriors thought I was a mistaken peacenik -- so I dropped the subject so as not to further alienate anyone. Gradually the group has come around to a really DU point of view about the conduct of this misbegotten war.

If I were you I would try to understand the freight of emotion certain symbols have for a lot of military personnel and vets, and not carry on a pointless fight with someone who isn't ready to concede there's another point of view. If your wife as mod is already calling him on his aggressiveness, eventually he may be dropped from the list anyway.

Hekate

[Mythsaje]

8. Nah, he's not likely to be dropped...

She's had to kick him off before and he now comes around pretty quickly when she chastises him. Most of us no each other personally as well, so it's no big deal. He and I have had our issues in the past. He's a great example of what kind of a pain-in-the-ass know-it-all I could have been had I not decided I preferred people actually LIKE me. LOL

I'm not going to get into it any more directly than I already have. I personally think flag-burning is a stupid practice, but I don't favor any attempts to make it illegal.

[Hekate]

11. Then I guess you'll just have to put up with his persistent *holery!

:hi:

Hekate

[PDJane]

6. It's not illegal in Canada.

If you believe that your country is harmed by someone burning a flag, you're practicing magic.

[Mythsaje]

9. ROFL

Well, this is a pagan list. Magic is a big part of their lives.

They're big on symbolism. In fact, one poster asked me if I would have a problem with someone soiling my altar cloth. Since I don't, in fact, own an altar cloth, or even an altar, it's a moot point. My wife, on the other hand, might get upset.

To me, all things are both sacred and profane at the same time. A flag or altar cloth is no more mystical than a chunk of firewood.

[Oeditpus Rex]

7. It pushes their buttons because it's simple

"Man burn flag. Man bad."

No thinking required, merely reaction.

To me, the fact that we have the freedom to burn a flag is the best reason not do do it.

[AntiCoup2K08]

12. Declaring flag burning "illegal" would be completely ridiculous....

When anyone in uniform from the Boy Scouts to the Marines can tell you that the proper way to "retire" and old and torn up flag, is to BURN IT.

Personally, I don't see myself ever burning a flag. The flag itself is just a piece of cloth. What it symbolizes has been completely bastardized by the Chimpministration and their whores like FAUX News. Burning posters of the Bush Crime Family might be a better symbolic display. Or just ripping them up (and recycling the shreds, of course) for a more environmentally responsible solution.

[lynnertic]

13. LOL your post made me think you had burning man tickets to offer...

Big topic on the Left Coast these days