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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-06-07 09:40 AM
Original message
Priests finding it difficult to preach about Iraq war - Don't want to offend nobody
http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/news/local/scn-gt-a3priests.8.5aug04,0,2213425.story?coll=stam-news-local-headlines

By Brian Lockhart
Staff Writer

Published August 5 2007

The Rev. David Blanchfield paused before addressing the issue of why he has not voiced his opposition to the Iraq war from the pulpit.

"I'm probably out of my mind even talking to you," said Blanchfield, of St. Jerome Church in Norwalk. "My first instincts were 'what am I doing calling a reporter (back)?' But I feel so strongly about this."

Blanchfield then explained his belief that the United States violated the Catholic principals of a "just war" by invading Iraq in March 2003 without direct provocation.

A just war is defined as being necessary for defense, limited and proportional to the enemy's strength.

"My sense is that people who were followers of Jesus, an advocate of nonviolence, have to follow more in his footsteps on this issue," Blanchfield said. "And the damage to the wounded veterans. I don't think people understand how grave that is."

But he is fearful of dividing his congregation, which includes members with relatives who served in the military in the Middle East.

"I've been reluctant to preach about this," Blanchfield said. "I'm reaching the end of my rope." snip

Though the Vatican and U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops have raised questions about the war, some priests said they were uncertain about where Catholic leadership stood on the issue.

"No one has come out with an authoritative statement saying this war is wrong," St. John's DiGiovanni said. "No one has condemned it as an unjust war."

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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-06-07 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
1. Huh? I seem to recall the Pope saying 'don't do it' 6 years ago...
:eyes:
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lynnertic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-06-07 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
2. Noone he cares about, he means to say...
"No one has come out with an authoritative statement saying this war is wrong," St. John's DiGiovanni said. "No one has condemned it as an unjust war."


May our men and women be brought home before we even thought they could be, whole and/or healable in body, mind and spirit. May the people who started the war in Iraq be made incapable of starting any other.
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C_U_L8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-06-07 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
3. Oh why not...just skip over that "shall not kill" part
toadies to murder... true holy shits.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-06-07 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
4. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-06-07 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #4
14. Out of line -- the huge, HUGE majority of priests are not pedophiles
I am no friend of the Church, but statements like these on DU are out out of line and against DU rules.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-06-07 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
5. and the cowardly shall keep their flock
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-06-07 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
6. Ratso says NooOooo...
Edited on Mon Aug-06-07 09:50 AM by IanDB1
See related thread:

Pope Ratso gives big "Fick Dich" to Catholic Peace Movement
Topic started by IanDB1 on Jul-14-07 09:18 PM (9 replies)
Last modified by Toasterlad on Jul-15-07 09:04 AM
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1337231



Black Collar DoGoodery is once again stymied by Ratso's Douchebaggery.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-06-07 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
7. Pope JP II spoke out against it
don't expect the Rat to though. I don't believe Jesus ever spoke about a "just war" . He was about peace if I remember correctly.

:eyes:
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-06-07 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. An authoritative statement saying "this war is wrong" would help a lot
If the Vatican were to "condemn it as an unjust war", which it is that would be great too.

Just a little "speak out" from a long dead pope doesn't help much at all as the priests in the OP have noted.

Don

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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-06-07 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. The former Pope did
And, Pope Rat has, too.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-06-07 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. The Monsignor is lying?
Edited on Mon Aug-06-07 11:07 AM by NNN0LHI
Though the Vatican and U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops have raised questions about the war, some priests said they were uncertain about where Catholic leadership stood on the issue.

"No one has come out with an authoritative statement saying this war is wrong," St. John's DiGiovanni said. "No one has condemned it as an unjust war."
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-06-07 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. Pope Rat has denounced the war both before and after he was elected Pope
And, JP II also did.

All you have to do is Google: the Monsignor is mistaken.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-06-07 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Rather than having me Googling around trying to prove a negative...
...how about if you just provide a link to this authoritative statement from the Vatican saying this war is wrong and that the church has condemned it as an unjust war?

Wouldn't that be a lot easier?

Don


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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-06-07 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Why are you being so fucking snotty to me?
And, did I ever say the Vatican made this announcement? NO. I said Pope JPII and Pope Rat -- both as Cardinal and as Pope -- has denounced the war.

Jesus. I'm right -- sorry that it bursts your bubble to know that that creep in the Vactican said something decent.
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The Vinyl Ripper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-06-07 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
9. Funny..
They have no problem offending those who disagree with their stand on abortion.

I guess killing the already born is less important.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-06-07 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. I think a deal was made
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5164-2005Mar3.html

Vatican Asks Rice to Help With Lawsuit

Friday, March 4, 2005; Page A22


A senior Vatican official asked Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to intervene in a sexual abuse lawsuit in Louisville that names the Vatican as a defendant, but she declined, a Roman Catholic newspaper reported yesterday.

The National Catholic Reporter, in a dispatch from Rome, said Cardinal Angelo Sodano, the Vatican's secretary of state, made the request during Rice's Feb. 8 visit to the Vatican. Quoting unnamed Vatican sources, the newspaper said Rice explained that under U.S. law, foreign states are required to assert claims of sovereign immunity themselves.

The suit pending in U.S. District Court in Louisville is one of many sexual abuse claims in recent years that have listed the Holy See among the defendants. Judges generally have dismissed such claims either on First Amendment grounds or because of the immunity that foreign governments enjoy from many kinds of lawsuits. But the Kentucky case is unusual because it is a class-action lawsuit and the Vatican is the sole defendant.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-06-07 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
10. WWRD: What Would Romero Do?
Edited on Mon Aug-06-07 10:03 AM by IanDB1





Óscar Romero
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Óscar Arnulfo Romero y Galdámez (August 15, 1917 – March 24, 1980), commonly known as Monseñor Romero, was a priest of the Roman Catholic Church in El Salvador. He later became the eighth Bishop and fourth Archbishop of San Salvador, succeeding the long-reigning Luis Chávez y González.

As archbishop, he witnessed ongoing violations of human rights and started a group which spoke out to the poor and also victims of the country's civil war. Chosen to be archbishop for his conservatism, once in office his conscience led him to embrace a non-violent form of liberation theology, a position that has led to comparisons with Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King. Later, in 1980, he was assassinated by gunshot shortly after his homily. His death provoked international outcry for human rights reform in El Salvador. After his assassination, Romero was succeeded by Msgr. Arturo Rivera y Damas.

In 1997, a cause for beatification and canonization into sainthood was opened for Romero, and Pope John Paul II bestowed upon him the title of Servant of God. The process continues.<1> He is considered by some the unofficial patron saint of the Americas and El Salvador and is often referred to as "San Romero" by the Catholic workers in El Salvador. Outside of Catholicism, Romero is honored by other religious denominations of Christendom, including the Church of England through its Common Worship. He is one of the ten 20th-century martyrs from across the world who are depicted in statues above the Great West Door of Westminster Abbey, London.<2>

<snip>

Assassination and funeral

Romero was shot to death on March 24, 1980 while celebrating Catholic Mass at a small chapel near his cathedral, the day after he gave a sermon in which he called on Salvadoran soldiers, as Christians, to obey God's higher order and to stop carrying out the government's repression and violations of basic human rights. According to an audio-recording of the Mass, he was shot moments after the homily, which he had concluded with an improvised pre-Eucharistic prayer thanking God (the homily in the Roman Catholic Rite more or less signifies the end of the Liturgy of the Word and the beginning of the Liturgy of the Eucharist or Mass of the Faithful). When he was shot, his blood was spilled over his own altar and some say it went into the communion wine.

It is believed that his assassins were members of Salvadoran death squads, including two graduates of the U.S.-run School of the Americas, who were acting on orders of the Salvadoran military. This view was supported in 1993 by an official U.N. report, which identified the man who ordered the killing as Major Roberto D'Aubuisson,<5> who had founded the political party Nationalist Republican Alliance (ARENA), and organized death squads that systematically carried out politically-motivated assassinations and other human rights abuses in El Salvador. Rafael Alvaro Saravia, a former captain in the Salvadorian Air Force, was chief of security for Roberto D'Aubuisson and an active member of these death squads. In 2004, Mr. Saravia was found liable by a U.S. District Court under the Alien Tort Claims Act ("ATCA") (28 U.S.C. § 1350) for aiding, conspiring, and participating in the assassination of Archbishop Romero. Mr. Saravia was ordered to pay $10 million dollars for extrajudicial killing and crimes against humanity pursuant to the ATCA. Doe v. Rafael Saravia, 348 F. Supp. 2d 1112 (E.D. Cal. 2004) (providing an excellent account of the events leading up, and subsequent, to Archbishop Romero's death).

<snip>

During the ceremony, a bomb exploded on the Cathedral square (Plaza Barrios) and subsequently there were shots fired that probably came from surrounding buildings. While no one died from the bomb-blast or the shots, many people were killed during the following mass panic; official sources talk of 31 overall casualties, journalists indicated between 30 and 50 dead.<6> Some witnesses claimed it was government security forces that threw bombs into the crowd, and army sharpshooters, dressed as civilians, that fired into the chaos from the balcony or roof of the National Palace. However, there are contradictory accounts as to the course of the events and "probably, one will never know the truth about the interrupted funeral"<7>

Twenty-five years later, the BBC recalled the horror:

"Tens of thousands of mourners who had gathered for Romero's funeral Mass in front of the cathedral in San Salvador were filmed fleeing in terror as army gunners on the rooftops around the square opened fire. ... One person who was there told us he remembered the piles of shoes left behind by those who escaped with their lives."

As the gunfire continued, the body was buried in a crypt beneath the sanctuary. Even after the burial, people continued to line up to pay homage to their martyred prelate.<8><9><10><11><12>

<snip>

Television and film

* The film Romero (1989) was based on the Archbishop's life story. It was directed by John Duigan and starred Raúl Juliá and produced by Paulist Productions (a film company run by the Paulist Fathers, a group of Catholic Priests). Timed for release ten years after Romero's death, it was the first Hollywood feature film ever to be financed by the Roman Catholic Church. The film received respectful, if less than enthusiastic, reviews. Roger Ebert typified the critics who acknowledged that "he film has a good heart, and the Julia performance is an interesting one, restrained and considered ... The film's weakness is a certain implacable predictability." Although the film depicts Romero's assassination as occurring during the Consecration of the Eucharistic wine, he was actually killed after giving the homily. Also, Romero was never sent to jail as was in the movie, rather, he was just detained at a detainment camp.

* Oliver Stone's 1986 film, Salvador, contains a dramatisation of the assassination of Archbishop Romero (played in the movie by José Carlos Ruiz). The film tells the true story of sleazy photojournalist Richard Boyle (James Woods), who undergoes a spiritual conversion while covering the death squad killings in El Salvador during the Civil War.

* Romero was also featured in the made-for-TV movie, Choices of the Heart (NBC, 1983, René Enríquez as Romero) about the murder of four U.S. churchwomen in El Salvador

* Romero was also depicted in two biopics about the papacy of Karol Wojtyła, the U.S. television biopic Have No Fear: The Life of Pope John Paul II (ABC, 2005, Joaquim de Almeida as Romero) and the Italian biopic "Karol, un papa rimasto uomo" (2006, Carlos Kaniowsky as Romero).


More:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%93scar_Romero




Also:

Not long after the 1980 assassination of Archbishop Romero, peaceful rallies turned violent as police opened fire on the crowds. News footage of unarmed demonstrators being gunned down on the steps of the National Cathedral turned the eyes of the world to El Salvador, a tiny country in conflict.

The desire to prevent the kind of leftist takeover seen in Cuba and Nicaragua motivated the United States to get involved. Human rights - a cornerstone of President Carter's foreign policy - also propelled the U.S. to action. Not only the general level of violence, but also the murders of American citizens affected U.S. relations with El Salvador. In December 1980, four American churchwomen were raped and murdered. The U.S. responded by cutting off aid to El Salvador, but only very briefly, pending an investigation. Then, in 1981, two American land reform advisers were gunned down in the Sheraton Hotel in San Salvador. The U.S. Congress subsequently decided to disburse aid only as improvements in the Salvadoran human rights situation became evident.

<snip>

The 1980 election of Ronald Reagan as President of the United States changed American policy in El Salvador dramatically. The new U.S. administration worried about Communist expansion in Central America and viewed the El Salvador military government as a potential barrier against Communism. The Reagan administration substantially increased both military and economic aid to El Salvador.

<snip>

With continuing reports of atrocities and murders in El Salvador, the U.S. Congress no longer accepted the State Department's assurance that things were getting better. Speaker of the House Tom Foley created a special task force to monitor El Salvador's investigation of the murders. Congressman Joe Moakley of Massachusetts was selected to head up the investigation. During his research and visits to El Salvador, Congressman Moakley encountered a massive cover-up, deep problems with the Salvadoran armed forces, conspiracy and lies, which led him to challenge U.S. policy. He discovered that from a very high level, the armed forces of El Salvador had been responsible for the murders of the Jesuits. His investigation also led to the conclusion that certain levels of the U.S. government had known about the situation long before the task force was created.

<snip>

The Peace Accords dictated that the FMLN surrender their weapons to U.N. Forces, and that 102 Salvadoran officers be dismissed. Considered to be the most successful U.N.-brokered agreement in the world today, the majority of the Accords have been followed.

More:
http://www.pbs.org/itvs/enemiesofwar/elsalvador2.html

Also:

Romero (1989)

This docudrama about El Salvador’s Archbishop Oscar Romero gunned down as he celebrated Mass in 1980 is hard to watch. The film’s director was relentless in depicting the violence wrought upon El Salvador’s poor and those who would defend them during the 1970’s. Aid coming from the USA was used for weapons rather than development.

Romero was an aristocrat, trained in Europe, who, upon becoming an archbishop, seemed out of touch with the common people. Things begin to change when he resists a wealthy couple’s attempt to keep their child from being baptized in the same ceremony with local Indian children. Romero converts from a pastor of the rich to a Christ figure who leads his people on a path of gospel love and justice. The violent death of his priest friend Father Grande and of his innocent companions is a foretaste of what awaits the Archbishop. Raul Julio’s portrayal is both convincing and moving. Romero’s compassion, prayerfulness and courage come across with a power all their own.

Summary by Mary P. Martin, fsp

More:
http://artsandfaith.com/t100/2005/entry.php?film=241


Romero (film)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romero_%28film%29



Salvador (1986)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091886/



Romero (1989)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098219/
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OHdem10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-06-07 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
12. Pope JPII did condemn and call it an "unjust war. THE
AMERICAN MEDIA chose not to run with the story. CNN ran it
as a crawl for less than 24 hrs. Never covered it on the
news. If you remember, the American Media cheerleadered
us into the war. JPII was not in keeping with their agenda.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-06-07 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Would have been nice if he had put pen to paper and made a declaration though
That would have given the priests who know this war is wrong some cover to speak out against the war.

That is what this article is about.

Plus the new Pope could do the same thing right now if he chose to. Apparently he doesn't think it is that important.

Don
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-06-07 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. Yup
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-06-07 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
18. Here is the most important paragraph from the article
"I'm conscious we have some parishioners who are strongly Republican -- several who've given significantly to the Bush campaign and administration -- and I wouldn't dare suggest my dismay with the administration," he said. "I don't want to jeopardize the parish."
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Palladin Donating Member (174 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-06-07 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
19. There is a change coming despite the fears
of this priest. The Catholic Church stopped praying explicitly for the President of the United States and other named government officials as of the invasion of March 2003. Last Sunday I heard an explicit prayer for the cessation of occupation and immediate return of US troops at a local parish. That would not be happening without the sanction of the Archbishop.

The American Catholic bishops and archbishops have historically pursued an independent political line from the Vatican. The roots of this go way back to the anti-Catholic Know-Nothing movement of the pre Civil War US, well portrayed in Scorsese's film Gangs of New York, and still virulent today in the Red states. The hierarchy in this country has never openly confronted the government. Further, there has always been a neocon problem. Supposed Catholic but actually neocon writers such as Father John Neuhaus and George Weigel and Deal Hudson ingratiated themselves with the imperial government before the current war, by elaborating new (and heretical) theories of just war, throwing out centuries of Catholic traditional teaching going clear back to St. Augustine.

It is becoming increasingly clear to the flock that these nominally Catholic neocons have been as thoroughly discredited as the majority neocons. There's also a realization of the irrational power of the Protestant fundamentalist so-called christian Right and particularly the christian Zionists like Falwell, Robertson, and Hagee, and their desire to promote the end-time and the Rapture - which, according to them, will not include the whore of Babylon, the Roman Catholic Church. That is among the factors inducing Protestant fundamentalist nuts such as Tancredo, Hunter, Newt Gingrich, and Tom DeLay to be so eager to nuke Mecca, and Tehran. I should include the principal nut, President Dick Cheney, but he's not a Christian, of any type.
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