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Is everyone leaving because they are afraid of the new FISA bill that passed?

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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 04:32 PM
Original message
Is everyone leaving because they are afraid of the new FISA bill that passed?
Is everyone that has announced they are leaving DU due to the late night bill passed in Congress allowing unfettered wiretapping and network monitoring by the bu$h regime and Gonzo?

We have been here fighting these bastards every inch of the way, if we stop now, all is lost. Don't let a little government monitoring stop us from continuing the defense of the very things we feel important to this nation.
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. I don't think so. We pretty much know they are spying on us


I assume documenting your dissent of this administration automatically puts you on a list.

I think people are leaving because they feel the democrats have abandoned them & their constitutional duties. I left myself for a few months, sometimes people need space. It gets overwhelming & even with the computer, it isn't like the solidarity of a on the ground movement. It can feel isolating.

I wouldn't count people who are leaving gone for good. It justs gets to much to take at times.
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Rosa Luxemburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. irrelevant spying : that's what all the taxpayers' money is being used for
just think all that waste spying on grannies when it could have been used for maintaining bridges, levees or even homeland security?
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
3. No.
The cats want food and I really don't want to go to the store.
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zalinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
4. No, it's because we are tired of fighting for sanity
There are some here who think that dems are evil incarnate because they aren't doing what they think they should be doing. I'm tired and depressed from reading all the dem bashing. I'm tired of hearing that I am part of the problem because I am a dem.

zalinda
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. 'evil incarnate'
That sort of hyperbole does not result in dialog, it results in a flamefest. We have a point. Our point is not that "dems are evil incarnate". Perhaps you should listen and at least understand what we are saying.
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zalinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
28. I have listened and I do understand
you are impatient. You want what you want NOW. It doesn't matter whether or not it can be achieved NOW or not, you want it NOW. If the dems don't do what we want NOW, let's throw all the bums out. If the dems don't do what we want NOW, let's form a third party, that's what we need. They work for US, so we can say whatever we want about them or to them. Where in the hell is manners? Sometimes this site reads like it is a freeper board instead of a dem one.

I only read 2 areas, the front page and the latest page, and there is enough hatred against dems posted that it is depressing. I certainly understand frustration, I am frustrated too, but I don't slam the whole party, like many here do, if a minority of the dems let me down. It's not fair, not to anyone, to group all as incompetents, when only a few are.

zalinda
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billyoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
5. Well, I'm not sure. I would have asked them why they were leaving
but I remembered that I didn't care. :rofl:
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PetrusMonsFormicarum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
6. Assume they're listening
and get on with it. We still have some explicitly stated freedoms . . . and responsibilities.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
7.  they have been spying since the late 1800`s.
the left has been fighting ever since the late 1800`s to make sure this country practices what it preaches to the world
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dkofos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
8. Not to worry. Most will be back when congress gets back from vacation.
Or will have already been taken to Gitmo for reeducation.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
9. No.
But I think there are some people who invested a lot of their emotional capital and credibility here supporting our Democratic congressional leadership and they are having a hard time dealing with the manifest failure of that leadership. In other words they put themselves out on a limb, called a lot of us who were strongly and vocally opposed to the actions of Pelosi and Reid same rather harsh names, and rather than, as some have done, simply state 'I was wrong', have gotten into their Huff and driven off. Quite frankly I'd rather they had been right and that Pelosi and Reid really did have a plan and really were great political strategists. I would have been happy to admit the error of my way. Reality sucks and is frequently hard to deal with.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
10. I think it's been a bad week...
and maybe people are bottoming out?
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. If it wasn't for this place I would have bottomed out long ago
If I didn't know there people out there looking at this situation similarly and seeing the absurdity of this state our nation is, I would have bottomed out 4 years ago.
I thought I could take 4 years of these monsters, I thought the republic could stand 4 years of this regime. Seeing what we have seen over the last six years has been a hell of a load to carry and some times I have just feel such anguish over the state of things.
DU has helped me get through those times.
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givemebackmycountry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
12. NO - I ain't going NO WHERE
Fuck these bastards -
COME GET ME!
Fuck you MONKEY!
Fuck you No Neck Heartless Bastard Cocksucker Cheney!
Fuck you Agent Mike!
America has faced this kind of shit before.
We'll get through it.
I fear the worst is yet to come, but I don't give a damn.
You'll have to pry my copy of the constitution out of my cold dead hands.
SO FUCK YOU!

Pardon the profanity - I'm actually a calm, kind, american.
But, I'm also a Irish New Yorker, and we don't take any shit from ANYBODY!
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
13. It Has Nothing to Do With It...
People SAY why they are leaving. I think they tell the truth. ...and who's afraid of that FISA thing? I know I'm not. It pisses me off but doesn't scare me. Yet.
Lee
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #13
29. I thought you left last week?
:rofl:

Seriously! Didn't you post that you were leaving?

Welcome back! :P

I guess that proves the point, doesn't it?

Whomevah "all" are, that have said they're leaving will be back.

Count on it. ;)
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
14. No. I think they're leaving for a variety of reasons. But not that one.
Actually, some are leaving because of questions like the one posed by the OP, imo.
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earthside Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
16. Two Good Articles
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
17. If they can't find anything in my past to fuck me over with they'll never find anything here.
:evilgrin:
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
18. Why would anyone leave DU just because some Dems are helping Bush?
Edited on Sun Aug-05-07 05:14 PM by Sarah Ibarruri
Or are people seriously afraid of the FISA law? How many of us are they going to arrest? MILLIONS?

Wouldn't it be better to hang around and plan to vote those Dems O-U-T of office?
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
19. Should I stay or should I go?
Just quoting the song. The question has a strange irrelevnace, leaving vcountry ot leaving DU. Point the feet in the real directions we all have been talking about. That is any direction that will create a just, progressive future. Tiffs and miffs among oursleves is just a petty sign of our own escape from responsibility and seeing in the mirror of our representative leaders(no matter how ill chosen) ourselves or at least or our predicaments. And to remember there are many if not most Dem leaders in Congress who share our exact rage and sentiments and passions. I am amazed at the depths of disillusion over this extra straw on the camel's back before Congress hotfooted it off to vacation. In anger our memories are short, our righteous myths strong. The cricle turns oddly against itself into retreat anddisillusion- because of idealism?

The great challenge posed by the Gonzales crime against Congress was THE crisis and that is to wend it's its way slowly uncertainly, reluctantly, granting the Bush administration the initiative and the legitimacy every single step of the way. In fact tossing in FISA reform which any decent president logically would NOT need was a reminder of who is still boss and a reminder that only impeachment(we dare you) can stop them. This is to encourage the WH staff as much as to humiliate the Dems. DC is full of cowards and for real cynics this is not an uncommon perception since the First Continental Congress.

There ARE reasons to acquiesce to FISA. There are inescapable dilemmas so long as you acceded to the legitimacy or competence to exist of the present executive branch. There IS one underlying weakness that is the root from which all of this springs. That is the current representation of Dems, their number, quality and representation of duties ideals and even the common voter is insufficient to conduct impeachment. They are forged into a circle pointing inward and understandably have become reluctant by experience to start shooting. Afraid to fail, afraid therefore to try, which is the certainty is the moral circle that gets nowhere. So the closed circle shuffles together in another absurd motion forward to election day to try to untangle the self-standoff, somehow, which is absurdly unclear. Better than being despised into the bargain by starting the circular firing squad?

We were starkly shown this in 2000 which cast a dark light forward and backward with the grim concrete of a fate that the ordinary man cries out in just anger could, must be changed. Well, change is in picking and getting real representation, which we now know is a possible hope. The possible hope did not suddenly arrive in 2006, when under the handicap of continued vote cheating, the organizational Dems continued to stack the party with self-fulfilling problems and false expectations. But did the Congress promise to end the war just because it was a convenient synergy that pushed them into the majority? No, things, the basic things in our own party leadership, have not changed yet. Some political miracle could propel DK into the WH and he would have to face this self-handicapped party as a more potent barrier than the GOP.

Bush knows what straw is for. To lay on other people's backs. To make haystacks to hide the poisoned needles in after use. And yes, our so-called fighting is exactly where he wants us too. Raging, splintering in impotence because the first order of business since 2000 was to remove, punish and restore. Instead it has been applied to our own inadequate party representation. It may be ironically said we have not yet begun to fight. Slaves swallow a lot of humiliation in rage. Their options were to plot impotently, know uselessly, run away, wait for a Deliverer.

Our options are to grimly use the free tools of a free people and advance on several fronts, none of them THE frustratingly easy thing of applying the law to bring the crooks down or the easy thing of getting a fair vote, unopposed by national media, with fair choices of representation. It IS a long road, if only Bush were to be taken to jail. But if that were to happen I sure the lesson here is that we would relax, in a false sense believe we had arrived, start praising and accepting the rotted fruit in our own party- and be more than ready for it all to happen again and again.

Like it or not a party is represented by its leaders. If there is a Dem party better than than its current crop it must pick new ones or force the chameleons at least to change their color. Like it or not the Naders and Sheehans, the voting reform activists, the urgent progressives, are reminders of the the long haul which is why the short haul- hauling the Bush a$$es to jail, is not yet happening.

This was truly known before the first vote was cast in 2006. This is what was really and openly in the cards if you simply paid attention. Exposing the crooks is not the ultimate victory as has been wearily touted over and over again. They are still there and treating them LIKE a legitimate, competent executive branch still leaves victory deferred. Let the Congress learn that their way is not the be and end all. It IS a dismal failure if they think this is the best of all possible surrenders.

if they pushed back on FISA and left Gonzales intact I would not like Faust, give up my soul and say to that moment "Stay, you are so wonderful!" Nor at Bush's impeachment. Striving toward what is just brooks no surrender and expects no perfection- if we know ourselves and meet our times square on, together.
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MissWaverly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. great post, look at the founding fathers how they struggled
it's not easy, we have to keep chipping away, I think living in the land of television leads people to believe in the simple solution
but it takes years to make progress. Remember when everyone thought we were crazy, Bush is now at 26% and FISA fiasco is not going to change that.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
20. I got kinda miffed when DU stopped handing out
candies at the door, otherwise, I will stay so I can have a clearer view of what the media is trying to describe without stepping on toes in high places.
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Bitwit1234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
22. So by leaving a place where they can discuss and find out relevant
information they think, things will magically right themselves.
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VP505 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
23. Tell you what,
like an old Vietnam Vet acquaintance of mine once told me when we were talking about Government tracking what books one checks out of the library and what organizations one belongs too. Check out books on a wide variety of subjects, belong to many many organization just to keep them confused by giving them a very wide range of things to look at.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
24. They Don't Need FISA To Know What WE Think
Anybody can read DU. We WANT people to read the stuff we write here.
It's the same stuff we have been flooding our Congressbeings' mailboxes with —
The same stuff we have been yelling at them at our protests.

We aren't exactly keeping it a secret.
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orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
25. we'll know if they come back after six months! n/t
Edited on Sun Aug-05-07 06:17 PM by orleans
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
26. I'm staying now only because of who is leaving!!
:yoiks:
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zalinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-05-07 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. And you've made my point !
Many feel that there has been too much hatred for the very dems that have been fighting for us. It is depressing. Not only depressing, but like a damn roller coaster.......up one minute, then slammed down the next.

Some people here, think that all they should do is post to get a DUzy, while others slam the dems, and some want you to throw everyone out and start a third party. Those of us who can see baby steps as something that is attained, and don't fly off the handle at every little set back, I think are just getting crisis fatigue. We need a break from all the chicken littles. And of course, we'll get slammed if we leave, or if we come back....makes no difference.

zalinda
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